Genesis News: 2021 Genesis G80 Packs New Styling, Two Turbo Engines

[Robert Hall]

Anyway, trying to get back on topic and away from all the rambling TL;DR nonsense, the new Genesis looks like a nice entry in the premium sedan market..will be interesting to see how it does if the car market comes back eventually..

Edited April 5, 2020 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside.   

That may be the dumbest thing I've read in a while...

Why?

Because Mercedes said the AMG is a luxury vehicle?

Why is it a luxury vehicle?

Price?

You already established in your mind that price got NOTHING to do with it...

But Ill humour you.

Starts at $108 000

F150 Shelby SuperSnake

Starts at $95 000 for 400 HP and $102 000 for 770 HP

 Performance?

The Supersnake and Raptor do things that an AMG E Class wont do and vice versa...but all 3  are performance machines.

You gonna pick and choose what performance criteria is luxury and what is not?

Technology?

What automotive tech is available in the Mercedes is also available in the F150. 

Fit and finish?

Quality of the leather?

What about towing capacity and what you could haul? 

Why isnt THAT a luxury?

Because when discussing with biased view points...one will always find a way to dismiss another view point when it does not match their fondness and dislike for certain vehicles... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert Hall]

The AMG E-class is a performance luxury vehicle.. same idea as the CTS-v was. 

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Anyway, trying to get back on topic and away from all the rambling TL;DR nonsense

Because you know...you got yourself in a pickle...

To boot...

'twas SMK that started this nonsense praising German shyteboxes...

Just now, Robert Hall said:

The AMG E-class is a performance luxury vehicle.. same idea as the CTS-v was. 

And the Longhorn Laramie is a huge, heavy, offroading isolation chamber...JUST like the old style  luxo barges  of yore were...except now they ride taller and got 4 wheel drive.  And some got performance chops too...go anywhere performance chops. 

[surreal1272]

Good lord people. Give it a rest already. Somehow, yet another thread about a luxury car gets hijacked by SMK semantics and comparing everything to a Benz (like anyone really gives two s***s) and now it has devolved into yet another semantics laden pissing match. 
 

The G80. Let’s discuss that. I’ll start with saying that on looks alone, the interior compares very well to the German competition. 

[frogger]

G80 compares well to the lower and mid trim German midsizers but without the German or Tesla badge it will be overlooked like the CT6 was.  In Asia it might do well where badges are not quite as well entrenched..  Buick was for retirees here who wouldn't comarison shop anywhere else but still made a good run in China.

 

 

 

[ocnblu]

Can we go back and start at the beginning with Genesis?

[G. David Felt]

On 4/3/2020 at 6:34 PM, riviera74 said:

The badge snobs embraced the MB/BMW in the 80s; nobody really cared back in the 70s.  As for the rapid switch to other marques, color me a little skeptical.  The switch to CUVs over sedans took a long while (about 20 years from the original CR-V and RAV4).  CUV sales have essentially replaced sedan sales only 5-7 years ago.  Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura have lost very little market share in the past 15 years.  The rise of Hyundai/KIA is amazing but Genesis is not a brand that is trendy.  Where is the fat and unhealthy luxury marque that needs to be challenged from Genesis?  There is a reason that MB/BMW went from obscure in 1980 to the Kings of the Luxury Hill before 1990 (prestige if not sales); then came the 1990 Lexus LS400 to challenge them.  Cadillac is not the slothful and complacent non-leader of the 1970s and 1980s.  Lincoln is no longer an afterthought (unlike before 2017 or so).  It seems to me that just about every luxury marque (aside from failing Infiniti) is pretty much where they want to be.  There is no real growth in luxury car sales at all.  Mostly it is the craze for luxury CUVs; but also there is some real growth from otherwise common car marques, especially really expensive pickup trucks. 

The same questions remain: where does Genesis find and take market share?  Also, why should anyone buy a Genesis over ANY Other luxury brand?  What is Genesis's unique selling point?

Sedan Sales have been falling off for far more than 5 to 7 years. If you want to point to a more critical point, 2000 is the year, you had ups and downs but the real drop started then, a recovery after the Depression of 2007 to 2012 and now pretty much dead.

Where as Truck /SUV sales have been going up for a long time again taking into account the 2007 to 2012 depression.

I believe the G80 as will the G90 and G70 will take market share from all three major segment leaders, American, Asian and European. Yet even they will have limited sales as the market moves to Luxury Trucks / SUV/CUVs.

Welcome to the new age of Luxury.

[balthazar]

6 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside.   

And sedans are just sedans...

Talk about a non-sequitor.

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yup...

And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either...

And THAT is the point...

Example

That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle...

 

Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. 

 

 

 

So you want to compare a base E-class vs a top trim pickup?  

How about a base Cadillac CT5 with no options to a loaded Toyota Avalon?  Which is more luxurious?  

And if the E-class isn't a luxury car, and has a taxi stigma, how come Cadillac, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti can't challenge it, and Lincoln quit building sedans?  

The E-class has put the CTS, CT6, Q70, and Continental in the graveyard and the RLX and GS are next.  E-class is so great a luxury vehicle it has survived when the rest have all failed, and the E-class has a higher price than all those competitors, even with discount pricing none of those brands could compete.  G80 will be no different.

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So you want to compare a base E-class vs a top trim pickup?  

How about a base Cadillac CT5 with no options to a loaded Toyota Avalon?  Which is more luxurious?  

And if the E-class isn't a luxury car, and has a taxi stigma, how come Cadillac, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti can't challenge it, and Lincoln quit building sedans?  

The E-class has put the CTS, CT6, Q70, and Continental in the graveyard and the RLX and GS are next.  E-class is so great a luxury vehicle it has survived when the rest have all failed, and the E-class has a higher price than all those competitors, even with discount pricing none of those brands could compete.  G80 will be no different.

Sure...

You seem to do it all the time...

What is a base E Class anyway?

In Greece...its a taxi cab...

You cant use the 100 000 dollar AMG on me...why?

 

 

On 4/4/2020 at 4:11 PM, smk4565 said:

Cost doesn't equal luxury.  

 

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

 

 

                ALL YOUR WORDS...

IN ESSENCE...YOU ARE ARGUING WITH....

                     YOURSELF

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, frogger said:

G80 compares well to the lower and mid trim German midsizers but without the German or Tesla badge it will be overlooked like the CT6 was.  In Asia it might do well where badges are not quite as well entrenched..  Buick was for retirees here who wouldn't comarison shop anywhere else but still made a good run in China.

 

 

 

But did Genesis do enough?  Even at a $10k discount to any German sedan now, the G80 is outsold by a huge margin.  They have better styling, better interior and better engines on this new one, but can they keep the $10k price discount to attract buyers?  G80 sells like 10k units a year, even if they double it, it is still a relatively low volume car.  And I don't think they'll double it.  

This is sort of like when Lincoln brought back the Continental, people got excited and now 4 years later or whatever it has been the car is dead.   Because Lincoln didn't do enough and the Contintenal should have been Lexus ES money at best, not where they priced it.  The Continental was a dressed up Taurus a the end of the day, while a Lexus ES is a messed up Avalon.  And Lexus has way better quality, reliability, resale and image than Lincoln.  A Continental starts at $46k, $60k for a Reserve and $70k for Black Label.  A Lexus ES starts at $39,900, $45k for the F-sport which is the top trim, and throw $10k in options on and assume $55k for the nicest one.  

Genesis is in similar spot as Lincoln was with Continental.  The Continental wasn't a good car, it was on a crap platform with carry over engines, Ford switchgear and quality and Lincolns have atrocious resale value.  So who in their right mind at Ford thought they should charge more than a Lexus ES?  And the trap all these companies fall into is they look at $55k for a base 5-series or E-class and think their car is on par with those guys, when in fact they aren't even close.  

 

[Robert Hall]

32 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 What is a base E Class anyway?

In Greece...its a taxi cab...

 

What the holy fuck do taxi cabs in Greece have to do with anything????? Priuses are taxi cabs in the US.   Stop it with the long winded tedious drivel and focus on the subject of the thread... 

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

What the holy f@#k do taxi cabs in Greece have to do with anything????? Priuses are taxi cabs in the US.   Stop it with the long winded tedious drivel and focus on the subject of the thread... 

Alot

Whether you like it or not.

According to YOUR definition of luxury. High end trims of pick-up trucks are luxury...

If you dont agree with that, then E Class Mercedes is NOT luxury either...

Pick your pill and stop the bullshyte!

[G. David Felt]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So you want to compare a base E-class vs a top trim pickup?  

How about a base Cadillac CT5 with no options to a loaded Toyota Avalon?  Which is more luxurious?  

And if the E-class isn't a luxury car, and has a taxi stigma, how come Cadillac, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti can't challenge it, and Lincoln quit building sedans?  

The E-class has put the CTS, CT6, Q70, and Continental in the graveyard and the RLX and GS are next.  E-class is so great a luxury vehicle it has survived when the rest have all failed, and the E-class has a higher price than all those competitors, even with discount pricing none of those brands could compete.  G80 will be no different.

First off Mercedes-Benz has whored out the E-Class at lower prices to dump and keep assembly lines going in Germany due to the craziness of the Union contracts, so the whore out the E-Class  and sell a little of everything else into rental and then at high prices sell a marketed Luxury version.

Cadillac, Genesis, Acura, Infinity, etc. have all chosen to NOT whore out a specific model and go after profitable sales which has allowed Cadillac while a much lower sales volume, a very high and profitable ATP.

IN KEEPING THIS FOCUSED ON GENESIS G80

I am sure if they wanted, Genesis could whore out any of their models to rental, taxi or any other place to get many versions moved. Yet as has been learned from looking at the past, selling into the fleet business reduces auto value.

G80 has clear style points pulled from all over the auto industry on the outside and some will like it, others will hate it and some will go Meh, and drive it if they have too.

Interior is high quality and I suspect at the price point they sell the cars, they will win over converts. I know one already as my brother in-law who drove a BMW, then a Mercedes, then back to BMW went with Genesis. When asked why, he said the quality of the interior for the price point for what he sees as an appliance for getting from point A to B and back is far better than the cost both in purchase and maintenance of the German brands and he suspects will maintain a lower cost of ownership way longer than what he paid for in the European auto's.

He is a CPA with his own firm and an investing firm with Boeing as one of his clients investing millions of their workers 401K contributions.

He can easily afford any auto and yet he does not see any reason to pay for higher priced auto's than that and he has said that while he would love a lower maintenance cost EV sedan, he also in his mind cannot justify now their cost. He figures in 2 to 3 years enough should be out that he can then reduce ownership costs further by going EV but for now, the Genesis is the best value for the dollar in the luxury auto segment.

Genesis wins.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

What is a base E Class anyway?

In Greece...its a taxi cab...

It is a taxi because it is the longest lasting, most durable mid-size sedan in the world.  And the diesel version gets over 40 mpg.  

And you seem to think that how they use it in Europe has any impact here or there.  If it mattered or hurt the image of the car, then Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, etc would have been able to compete with it, none of them could.  I'd be more concerned if I were Cadillac or Genesis that my top luxury cars can't get as much status as a taxi.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

 

Cadillac, Genesis, Acura, Infinity, etc. have all chosen to NOT whore out a specific model and go after profitable sales which has allowed Cadillac while a much lower sales volume, a very high and profitable ATP.

IN KEEPING THIS FOCUSED ON GENESIS G80

I am sure if they wanted, Genesis could whore out any of their models to rental, taxi or any other place to get many versions moved. Yet as has been learned from looking at the past, selling into the fleet business reduces auto value.

If it were that easy then why don't Genesis, Cadillac, Infiniti or whoever copy Mercedes and fleet sale like crazy?  Mercedes has been selling E-class taxis for 40-50 years, and yet segment by segment they charge more than any Asian, Korean or American car company, and they outsell them all segment by segment.  

All these arguments against Mercedes, BMW or Audi with high maintenance cost, or fleet sale or whatever are meaningless.  Because that has been the case for 40 years and those 3 are still the top 3.   Bottom line is it comes down to product and brand image in the luxury game.  

What makes the Genesis brand special?  Mercedes won the Formula 1 championship 6 years in a row,  Audi and Porsche win Le Mans with the same frequency that people eat cheeseburgers.   These guys know performance.  They have legendary histories.  Genesis has no grab to get people in, even if the G80 looks nice, it will probably look dated in 4 years since they mostly copy other people's past design and have an all new styling language every few years.

 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

First of Mercedes-Benz has whored out the E-Class at lower prices to dump and keep assembly lines going in Germany due to the craziness of the Union contracts, so the whore out the E-Class  and sell a little of everything else into rental and then at high prices sell a marketed Luxury version.

Cadillac, Genesis, Acura, Infinity, etc. have all chosen to NOT whore out a specific model and go after profitable sales which has allowed Cadillac while a much lower sales volume, a very high and profitable ATP.

IN KEEPING THIS FOCUSED ON GENESIS G80

I am sure if they wanted, Genesis could whore out any of their models to rental, taxi or any other place to get many versions moved. Yet as has been learned from looking at the past, selling into the fleet business reduces auto value.

G80 has clear style points pulled from all over the auto industry on the outside and some will like it, others will hate it and some will go Meh, and drive it if they have too.

Interior is high quality and I suspect at the price point they sell the cars, they will win over converts. I know one already as my brother in-law who drove a BMW, then a Mercedes, then back to BMW went with Genesis. When asked why, he said the quality of the interior for the price point for what he sees as an appliance for getting from point A to B and back is far better than the cost both in purchase and maintenance of the German brands and he suspects will maintain a lower cost of ownership way longer than what he paid for in the European auto's.

He is a CPA with his own firm and an investing firm with Boeing as one of his clients investing millions of their workers 401K contributions.

He can easily afford any auto and yet he does not see any reason to pay for higher priced auto's than that and he has said that while he would love a lower maintenance cost EV sedan, he also in his mind cannot justify now their cost. He figures in 2 to 3 years enough should be out that he can then reduce ownership costs further by going EV but for now, the Genesis is the best value for the dollar in the luxury auto segment.

Genesis wins.

Genesis certainly wins the value for the dollar award on all of its models.  The problem is this:  Where are the sales?

I think the the G80 is a really nice luxury car.  But Genesis needs MORE crossovers right now.  The GV80 is not enough.  Remember when Cadillac only had the Escalade and the SRX/XT5?  Forty percent of Cadillac sales went to the XT5 as recently as two years ago.  The release of the XT4 AND the XT6 were required to plug in the enormous gaps in Cadillac's lineup.  Now Genesis has the same issues.  They need a GV90 and especially a GV70 right now, not in 24-36 months.  Every other luxury marque has at least two if not three crossovers, which are the sales leaders right now and have been so for the past five years.  Can you imagine Audi sales without the Q3 and the Q5?  Or BMW sales without the X3 and the X5?  Or Mercedes Benz without the GL- class?  Their sales numbers would be trending down just like Infiniti!  In an era where the flagship of almost any car make is a crossover and NOT a large sedan, the G80 is a solution in search of some customers.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If it were that easy then why don't Genesis, Cadillac, Infiniti or whoever copy Mercedes and fleet sale like crazy?  Mercedes has been selling E-class taxis for 40-50 years, and yet segment by segment they charge more than any Asian, Korean or American car company, and they outsell them all segment by segment.  

All these arguments against Mercedes, BMW or Audi with high maintenance cost, or fleet sale or whatever are meaningless.  Because that has been the case for 40 years and those 3 are still the top 3.   Bottom line is it comes down to product and brand image in the luxury game.  

What makes the Genesis brand special?  Mercedes won the Formula 1 championship 6 years in a row,  Audi and Porsche win Le Mans with the same frequency that people eat cheeseburgers.   These guys know performance.  They have legendary histories.  Genesis has no grab to get people in, even if the G80 looks nice, it will probably look dated in 4 years since they mostly copy other people's past design and have an all new styling language every few years.

 

So first off, WHO THE FUCK CARES about Formula 1, Championship, LeMans, etc. The bulk of the people do NOT watch racing or care.

Mercedes is already DATED!!!!, Blah brand style.

You have NO FACTS of the actual Taxi Whore price spent on the plastic interior taxes and the real reason that the E-Class has been a taxi for so long is in Europe as long as you drive 150,000 kilometers a year, you can write off the price of the auto over 2 years. Yup 50% cost write off in year 1 and the other half in year 2 and the auto is worn out.

The Taxi's are driven hard, put away wet and are pretty much worthless in 2 years and worn out. Ready for scrap.

I will grant you that MB has a long life as Taxis. History shows that the founder thought taxi's were the logical use of Auto's and the first ones built in 1897.

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/lifestyle/classic-magazine/daimler-motoren-gesellschaft-supplied-the-worlds-first-motorized-taxi/

The W123 being the model that was sold as a fleet auto till the W124 came out with the name E-Class in 1993. At this point the wiki pages say that MB had 80% of the Taxi market till subpar quality reduced it to 50% and allowed VW to catch up. Since then world wide Taxi share has gone to 60% due to MB Vito Taxi Van that is popular.

MB web site and wiki both clearly state that the taxi versions are very different than the luxury version sold. As such, one can infer that the plastic interior with vinyl seats are sold much cheaper than the Luxury model they sell in the US.

I could go on but will not bother since you cannot even compare apples to apples.

Data supplied by the web site above and the following two wiki pages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_taxicab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_E-Class

In regards to GENESIS, and just about all other brands, I doubt Genesis wants to have a Taxi image as to why no one else goes after the taxi market. Value and higher ATP is clearly the focus.

[smk4565]

Genesis is the low price value leader now and has no volume.  Even taking out the fact that they needs crossovers, their sedans don’t even sell well.  
 

The G70 is a sales dud, big warranty and good JD Power ratings did nothing for it.  
 

I think G80 is a better effort than G70 was but I still think it comes up short of where they need to be.  Likewise with GV90, it falls short.

[smk4565]

Genesis replaced a 311 hp V6 with a 300 hp turbo 4 and replaced a 420 hp V8 with a 375 hp V6.  They subtracted horsepower, will raise the price, and they think they will find success?  
 

Maybe there is a higher output model coming, maybe a hybrid is coming, but the competition already does that.

[ccap41]

49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Genesis replaced a 311 hp V6 with a 300 hp turbo 4 and replaced a 420 hp V8 with a 375 hp V6.  They subtracted horsepower, will raise the price, and they think they will find success?  
 

Maybe there is a higher output model coming, maybe a hybrid is coming, but the competition already does that.

What are the torque differences? 

[ccap41]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 The Continental wasn't a good car, it was on a crap platform with carry over engines, Ford switchgear

" Lincoln has created its own switchgear for the Continental (and eventually the rest of the Lincoln line) with knurled-metal control knobs on the steering wheel and A/C system, and unique turn-signal stalks. Just about the only Ford-style switchgear I could find in the cabin were the window switches on the doors, and the overhead storage binnacle mounted just forward of the optional panoramic moonroof. "

"as well as a Lincoln-exclusive 3.0-liter engine making 400 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque. "

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/lincoln/continental/2017/2017-lincoln-continental-black-label-awd-first-drive-review/

Ford may have missed on the platform they chose to use but the car was the first real turning point for Lincoln and making them a truly luxury vehicle automaker again. 

 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They subtracted horsepower, will raise the price, and they think they will find success?  

Does the highest HP engine in ANY given model sell more that all the others?

[smk4565]

Lincoln should have their own window switches.  A Navigator or Aviator should not have a switch or turn signal stall out of a Ford Escape or Fusion.  This is the problem with Lincoln, it is fancy Ford.  They have done better than say 10 years ago where an MKZ and Fusion shared everything but still, for $80k on a Lincoln you should get Ford switchgear.  And same goes for Maserati who uses Dodge Dart window switches on the Ghibli.

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Does the highest HP engine in ANY given model sell more that all the others?

I would doubt it.  The bottom engine is the best seller except maybe on something like a sports car maybe pickups where people skip the work truck base engine and go up a level.  

[G. David Felt]

I have seen this more and more by the Germans and it would infer that the Germans are going down the same path the old GM did.

The all new BMW 2020 745e has the same funky Shifter GM started to use and was blasted for yet it is OK to use it in a German auto?

This is the kind of crap @smk4565 has bitched about in US auto's and now we see it showing up in the German brands which will get a pass cause all things German are superior.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127704_first-drive-review-2020-bmw-745e-plug-in-hybrid-luxury-sedan-goes-your-own-way-all-so-posh

So what does this have to do with Genesis, nothing really other than to point out Germans are using the same parts Cadillac used first and now it is OK to call it Luxury?

In fact, this has plenty to do with Genesis and the luxury segment as the Asians do have a higher reliability than German auto's which is why the Germans had to go to offering all maintenance to keep their leasing machine going as no one in their right mind would buy one.

I expect the Genesis to outlast the same year model of a german sedan.

[riviera74]

That shifter is in a BMW?!  I thought Cadillac was bad in putting a weird-working shifter in the XT5.

[balthazar]

That tiny screen is in a '20 7-series?? BMW has really lost whatever forward momentum they had going.

[Robert Hall]

The 7 series interior really hasn't changed since this generation came out for 2016, until 2020 when updates to the interior include a new 12.3-inch instrument cluster and a 10.25-inch infotainment screen

Edited April 6, 2020 by Robert Hall

[ykX]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That tiny screen is in a '20 7-series?? BMW has really lost whatever forward momentum they had going.

2020 CT6 has 8 in infotainment screen, BMW 7-series has 10 in screen.

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

2020 CT6 has 8 in infotainment screen, BMW 7-series has 10 in screen.

I have no idea why any luxury car marque uses an infotainment screen smaller than ten inches.  Ideally every carmaker would have infotainment screens the size of a 2020 RAM pickup truck, especially crossovers and minivans.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

I have seen this more and more by the Germans and it would infer that the Germans are going down the same path the old GM did.

The all new BMW 2020 745e has the same funky Shifter GM started to use and was blasted for yet it is OK to use it in a German auto?

This is the kind of crap @smk4565 has bitched about in US auto's and now we see it showing up in the German brands which will get a pass cause all things German are superior.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127704_first-drive-review-2020-bmw-745e-plug-in-hybrid-luxury-sedan-goes-your-own-way-all-so-posh

So what does this have to do with Genesis, nothing really other than to point out Germans are using the same parts Cadillac used first and now it is OK to call it Luxury?

In fact, this has plenty to do with Genesis and the luxury segment as the Asians do have a higher reliability than German auto's which is why the Germans had to go to offering all maintenance to keep their leasing machine going as no one in their right mind would buy one.

I expect the Genesis to outlast the same year model of a german sedan.

BMW started using that shift lever in 2008.  Why do you think Cadillac started using in on the first place?  
 

Hard to say no one in their right mind would buy a German car when Volkswagen is the largest car company in the world and the top 3 selling luxury brands in the world are Mercedes, BMW and Audi and any of them outsell the 4th place brand 3 to 1.  

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

BMW started using that shift lever in 2008.  Why do you think Cadillac started using in on the first place?  
 

Hard to say no one in their right mind would buy a German car when Volkswagen is the largest car company in the world and the top 3 selling luxury brands in the world are Mercedes, BMW and Audi and any of them outsell the 4th place brand 3 to 1.  

Rightttttttt and that is why VW, BMW and MB are at the bottom of sales in the US compared to FORD, GM and FCA here. 

Yes they are leading sales in the rest of the world, here they are just peanuts.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, ykX said:

2020 CT6 has 8 in infotainment screen, BMW 7-series has 10 in screen.

Is the 7-series new for '20?

[ccap41]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln should have their own window switches.  A Navigator or Aviator should not have a switch or turn signal stall out of a Ford Escape or Fusion.  This is the problem with Lincoln, it is fancy Ford.  They have done better than say 10 years ago where an MKZ and Fusion shared everything but still, for $80k on a Lincoln you should get Ford switchgear.  And same goes for Maserati who uses Dodge Dart window switches on the Ghibli.

They. Don't. Look at an Explorer and Aviator. They do not share switchgear and the same goes for the Corsair/MKC and Escape, Nautilus and Edge, Navigator and Expedition. From what I've read the literal only things they share is window switches and that's something that doesn't matter if the two look the same as they're tucked in the doors.

All of the Lincolns also have higher engine options save for maybe the Navigator if the Expedition gets the high output version of the 3.5 but I don't believe it does. 

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

I have no idea why any luxury car marque uses an infotainment screen smaller than ten inches.  Ideally every carmaker would have infotainment screens the size of a 2020 RAM pickup truck, especially crossovers and minivans.

8 inches really isn't small as long as it is shaped and organized correctly. Mine is 8 inches and it doesn't seem small but it looks like there is more surface area than the 10 inch BMW because it's square and not rectangular. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Rightttttttt and that is why VW, BMW and MB are at the bottom of sales in the US compared to FORD, GM and FCA here. 

Yes they are leading sales in the rest of the world, here they are just peanuts.

He specifically said luxury brands...

[Robert Hall]

16 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Is the 7-series new for '20?

No, just an MCE. 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Rightttttttt and that is why VW, BMW and MB are at the bottom of sales in the US compared to FORD, GM and FCA here. 

Yes they are leading sales in the rest of the world, here they are just peanuts.

Cost as far as BMW and Mercedes go here, of course they don't have volume of low priced brands.   VW should do better here, but worldwide VW is the size of Ford and GM combined.  VW could use another crossover or two in the USA, I think a pick up also, probably mid-size they won't get any penetration in full size market.

What will be interesting is to see VW's EV push.  That might make them a bigger player in the USA because they have a ton of EV's on the way across all their brands. 

[Robert Hall]

Random aside about European Mercedes Taxis and such, while watching a Belgian crime drama I’ve seen a couple Cadillac DTS hearses, one w the padded top like here and one European style w all the glass. 

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cost as far as BMW and Mercedes go here, of course they don't have volume of low priced brands.   VW should do better here, but worldwide VW is the size of Ford and GM combined.  VW could use another crossover or two in the USA, I think a pick up also, probably mid-size they won't get any penetration in full size market.

What will be interesting is to see VW's EV push.  That might make them a bigger player in the USA because they have a ton of EV's on the way across all their brands. 

While most folks here know I am a big EV supporter, I DOUBT VW will gain much market share. The last time they had any noticable market gain was in the early 90's during their Fahrvergnügen marketing campaign where they actually connected with the US public. 

Since then, VW has Floundered any and all opportunities to increase market share as they approach the US the same way they do Europe and Asia and that FAILS as we are not them.

Auto's are too small, the Sparse interiors while a favorite of many Tech employees, is not what the bulk of America wants and even now, Many Tech employees are more into their smartphones than an auto. The few of us Tech folks here are the exception not the norm.

VW will not gain market share as their EV product line is focused on Europe / Asia and not America tastes. As such they will continue to be a Niche player.

Rivian knows this and it is why they focused on the full size Pickup / SUV as the EVs to bring to market.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz will FAIL also as long as they continue to focus on the wrong EV product for this Market.

GENESIS could very well take market share from everyone if they bring out a mid size and bigger EV products at a decent price. 

As all of us are in agreement here, Genesis needs to have luxury CUV/SUVs now rather than cars.

Take the Hyundai Palisade and make both an ICE and EV luxury Genesis version and you will have a winner winner Steak Dinner. 

[smk4565]

VW is planning something like 80 EV models, some of them will have to hit in the USA.   80 models is full on carpet bomb of all segments.

 

[G. David Felt]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

VW is planning something like 80 EV models, some of them will have to hit in the USA.   80 models is full on carpet bomb of all segments.

 

Does not matter how many models they state they are building. VW still DOES NOT MAKE what the bulk of America wants. They have not changed and as such will have little to NO IMPACT and that is sad. Just as Mercedes-Benz has not taken the EV segment serious for the US. Their first EV will go to badge snob's but over all will not gain traction as they are focused on compact and subcompact and again NOT what the bulk of America wants. Their focus is Europe and China.

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Does not matter how many models they state they are building. VW still DOES NOT MAKE what the bulk of America wants. They have not changed and as such will have little to NO IMPACT and that is sad. Just as Mercedes-Benz has not taken the EV segment serious for the US. Their first EV will go to badge snob's but over all will not gain traction as they are focused on compact and subcompact and again NOT what the bulk of America wants. Their focus is Europe and China.

Of course their focus is on Europe and China: they are from Europe and China is now the world's biggest auto market.  VW/Audi, MB and BMW could drop the US market like a bad habit and it would affect them very little.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Does not matter how many models they state they are building. VW still DOES NOT MAKE what the bulk of America wants. They have not changed and as such will have little to NO IMPACT and that is sad. Just as Mercedes-Benz has not taken the EV segment serious for the US. Their first EV will go to badge snob's but over all will not gain traction as they are focused on compact and subcompact and again NOT what the bulk of America wants. Their focus is Europe and China.

VW has 3 crossovers, which is the #1 selling body style.  They could use one smaller than Tiguan for sure though.  
 

Mercedes first 4 EV’s are small and compact SUV (the biggest growth segments) and Full size and mid size sedan will come next.  And they are focused on Europe because of emissions regulations.  They have to sell every EQ C they build in Europe to lower their fleet CO2 average.  

Once they scale up the EV’s they can bring more to the USA, but EV sales are like 3% of the American market, they aren’t missing out in anything right now.

[smk4565]

33 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Of course their focus is on Europe and China: they are from Europe and China is now the world's biggest auto market.  VW/Audi, MB and BMW could drop the US market like a bad habit and it would affect them very little.

Very true, all of them do massive business in China and Europe as well.  I remember Audi selling like 250,000 A6 alone in China a couple years ago.  Audi’s Chinese sales alone are on par with Lexus’s global volume.

[surreal1272]

So I’m wondering. Is this yet another endless pissing match about why Benz is better than everything else (even when it’s clearly not), or what is luxury and what is not, or how Benz is slack on the EV front, or is this about the Genesis G80? Asking for a friend.

[G. David Felt]

26 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So I’m wondering. Is this yet another endless pissing match about why Benz is better than everything else (even when it’s clearly not), or what is luxury and what is not, or how Benz is slack on the EV front, or is this about the Genesis G80? Asking for a friend.

Right!!!

My last sentence of my post was on this subject and it is totally ignored.

To Quote Myself: Take the Hyundai Palisade and make both an ICE and EV luxury Genesis version and you will have a winner winner Steak Dinner. 

Fact is, they could do this and steal a ton of business for everyone.

[frogger]

Genesis has the GV80 CUV equivalent of this G80, I believe it starts at just under 50k and is larger than an XT5, same length as a BMW X5.  Have to wonder if they are planning a GV70.  Hopefully a new G90 and GV90 will be here within a few years.

 

[riviera74]

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

Genesis has the GV80 CUV equivalent of this G80, I believe it starts at just under 50k and is larger than an XT5, same length as a BMW X5.  Have to wonder if they are planning a GV70.  Hopefully a new G90 and GV90 will be here within a few years.

 

They need the GV90 and especially the GV70 now, not in 24-36 months.   Cadillac solved that product gap issue within the last 18 months.