Cadillac News: The Unclear Future of the Blackwing V8

[William Maley]

Cadillac's Blackwing V8 was the brand's first in-house V8 engine since the Northstar back in the 90's. The engine boasted twin turbos, dual overhead camshafts, and output of 550 hp and 640 lb-ft of torque for the CT6-V. But with the CT6 set to end U.S. production this month, the future of Blackwing is up in the air. 

"[We have] no specific plans for that engine, but never is a long time," said Cadillac president Steve Carlisle to Road & Track at the launch of the 2021 Escalade last week.

Previous reports had the Blackwing possibly going into the either the 2021 Escalade or the high-potent version of the CT5. It's likely the Escalade is a no-go, while R&T says the CT5's engine cannot fit the Blackwing. Instead, it will be using the supercharged 6.2L V8 from the CTS-V. Cadillac isn't confirming or denying this on the high-performance CT5, only saying more information about this model will come in due time. 

What may live on is the Blackwing name, something we first reported last July.

"We learned a lot with Blackwing. It's an idea that's really resonated with people,. So there'll be a little bit of Blackwing in other cars going forward," said Carlisle.

Source: Road & Track

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[balthazar]

I read elsewhere that a hi-po Escalade is definitely coming, so the BW seems a strong possibility there. 

[G. David Felt]

@dwightlooi has clearly pointed out here, this whole mess of Turbo everything is a joke as you can get a NA V8 with that power or go with a less weight supercharged V8. Twin Turbo and Turbo engines are just over complicated messes.

I agree with @balthazar as I also am reading on other sites that insiders are saying an Escalade V is still coming and that has the room to hold this engine.

Read this the other day, seems the TT V6 from the AST-V edition will show up in the new CT4 V Blackwing edition.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-expected-with-twin-turbo-v6-engine-from-ats-v-140638.html

[ccap41]

Isn't the downsizing and turbo-ing an emissions thing and not an output thing? 

[regfootball]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

@dwightlooi has clearly pointed out here, this whole mess of Turbo everything is a joke as you can get a NA V8 with that power or go with a less weight supercharged V8. Twin Turbo and Turbo engines are just over complicated messes.

I agree with @balthazar as I also am reading on other sites that insiders are saying an Escalade V is still coming and that has the room to hold this engine.

Read this the other day, seems the TT V6 from the AST-V edition will show up in the new CT4 V Blackwing edition.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-expected-with-twin-turbo-v6-engine-from-ats-v-140638.html

i don't think its so much always about that as much as it is if the customer desires to want it.  A turbo eight generates new interest for Cadillac, its something they can market vs competition.  It has a power and delivery that are characteristically different than the old supercharged engines.  

And, they developed the engine, so to not use it is a complete waste.

The supercharged motors have a following with people who go the track, etc. so there is some good reasoning to continuing to use those as well.

Could just simply be Cadillac doesn't want to spend development money to repackage for use in other products.....at this time.  The CT6 cancellation decision was independent of what is going on with the Escalade and CT5.  

Another possibility is Cadillac simply wants to beta test the motor in the outgoing CT6 to as few delivered units as possible in case there are any QC issues with the new motor.  If there are, then there is only a few out in the wild that they need to spend money on warranty fixes for.  The new design could be expensive if it turns out to be a defective design that they didn't catch in product testing.

I was looking at CT6 v8's on autotrader last night since i was looking at CT6's for my mom.  No way she can foot the bill for a v8!  A four year old 3.6 version is all that is in her possible price range.

[smk4565]

My guess is this engine dies with the CT6.  They don't have a crossover that can take a V8, CT5 can't fit it, they probably aren't going to make a sports car.  That leaves the Escalade-V if it shows up, and I think they'll used the 6.2 supercharged there, because it is cheaper and easier.

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

My guess is this engine dies with the CT6.  They don't have a crossover that can take a V8, CT5 can't fit it, they probably aren't going to make a sports car.  That leaves the Escalade-V if it shows up, and I think they'll used the 6.2 supercharged there, because it is cheaper and easier.

Lets also point out superior to Turbo charged motors. Supercharging always is better than Turbo.

Marketing has fed the global Public a LIE about Turbo's that is proven with supercharged motors. Clealry, GM failed to maximize the variable uses of a supercharged engine.

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Lets also point out superior to Turbo charged motors. Supercharging always is better than Turbo.

Marketing has fed the global Public a LIE about Turbo's that is proven with supercharged motors. Clealry, GM failed to maximize the variable uses of a supercharged engine.

Superchargers are mostly used by GM, Dodge and 90s Toyota Previa's.  Not exactly the who's who of engine manufacturers.  Supercharged engines suck gas too, electric turbo is better and faster.

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Superchargers are mostly used by GM, Dodge and 90s Toyota Previa's.  Not exactly the who's who of engine manufacturers.  Supercharged engines suck gas too, electric turbo is better and faster.

Nope not true, WOW, you really look through rose colored Blinders.

Will agree to disagree as electric superchargers are out there too just like electric turbo's and have no LAG. Seems you have also forgotten European auto companies that use superchargers too.

 

[balthazar]

mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

Edited February 12, 2020 by balthazar

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Nope not true, WOW, you really look through rose colored Blinders.

Will agree to disagree as electric superchargers are out there too just like electric turbo's and have no LAG. Seems you have also forgotten European auto companies that use superchargers too.

 

So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?  Sure. 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

They had the SLK, 4 cylinder supercharged, the 3.2 V6 and that 5.4 V8 with superchargers from the Daimler-Chrysler days, and they probably threw all those away for good reason.

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?  Sure. 

They had the SLK, 4 cylinder supercharged, the 3.2 V6 and that 5.4 V8 with superchargers from the Daimler-Chrysler days, and they probably threw all those away for good reason.

Marketing of DOHC Twin Turbo Bangers does not mean it really is the best long life engineering solution. YES, The German brands to me DO have it Wrong and it is NOT impressive when they are driven. But then I drive auto's that have outlasted pretty much everything those brands you brag about have built in the last 30 plus years.

I see more American Small block motors lasting much longer than the Germans and even in the asian rim, it is amazing to see how many people also convert and install an american small block V8. The engineering of the Small Block V8 has out performed so much of the European motors. 

There are rare exceptions but they are rare.

[smk4565]

Well with the death of the Blackwing V8, GM can live and die with the small block V8.  Silverado and Escalade have been bleeding market share with it, Camaro will probably be dead in 2023, although that has nothing really to do with the engine and everything to die with it not being an SUV.

 

Although I think GM’s design department has let them down way more in recent years than the powertain people.  Engines aren’t really GM’s problem, design is.

Edited February 12, 2020 by smk4565

[oldshurst442]

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?

Yup!

Whose to say Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche gets it right and Dodge and Chevy get it wrong?

In reality...you ask a stupid question...you'll get a stupid answer. 

In reality, supercharging has its advantages and its disadvantages and turbocharging has its advantages and disadvantages. 

For Chevy and Dodge...and Ford (5.4 liter V8 in the Lightning and GT and the new 5.2 liter in the GT500) use a supercharger because  they need those V8s to be supercharged.  The cars and trucks in question need to be supercharged because of all kinds of reasons.  Engineering, packaging, image and marketing...

For Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche use turbos  because  they need those engines  to be turbocharged. The cars and trucks in question need to be turbocharged because of all kinds of reasons.  Engineering, packaging, image and marketing...

Image and marketing is a HUGE deal.

Porsche for instance.  TURBO is what they do...

How much so?

They NEED their top dog trim ELECTRIC VEHICLE to be a TURBO trim...

So....you may think is turbo better...you'd be WRONG!!!

[oldshurst442]

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Well with the death of the Blackwing V8, GM can live and die with the small block V8.  Silverado and Escalade have been bleeding market share with it, Camaro will probably be dead in 2023, although that has nothing really to do with the engine and everything to die with it not being an SUV.

 You are all over the place...

The Escalade is not losing market share. Sales dipped because new generation is going to be introduced. Sales of end of gen product cycle usually dips towards...the end of the product...cycle.  

Then you state that the Camaro is going to die, but that has nothing to do with the SBC that resides in it.  

You do realize that the Escalade is still king in sales in its market...and has been since 20 years now...all with the SBC that resides under the hood...

GM gas sold millions upon millions with the SBC in its cars...

The SBC is one of the most successful of all engines ever built. In sales. In reliability. In winning races. 

Its a PUSHROD V8.

It has been supercharged by the factory. Its been supercharged by hot rodders.

Im not sure if it has been turbocharged by the factory, but it has definitely been turbocharged by hot rodders. 

It has been bored and stroked endlessly.  

So when you say, GM can live or die with it...you say it as a bad thing.

But why do you say that?

Im perplexed...

Edited February 12, 2020 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

  Although I think GM’s design department has let them down way more in recent years than the powertain people.  Engines aren’t really GM’s problem, design is.

GM's core issue seems to be management incompetence.    They come out with an all new engine in a car being cancelled.  That's incompetence.   Their trucks are horrifically styled.  The Camaro is so badly designed as to be unusable as far as outward visibility.  That's incompetence.     The C-suite is full of imbeciles. 

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

Actually, engines have been one of M-B's core engineering strengths for decades.

[ccap41]

Stock for stock, there's no way I'd take the GM version of what Mercedes offers in an engine. 

Then again, there isn't much to compare as GM is cramming the n/a V6 in everything and Mercedes wants nothing to do with a torque-less engine like that. 

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes engines are generally known for their long life, but as with any modern vehicle the electronics are the weak sauce to long term reliability.  And some of their engines have weird design flaws.  I'm sure one could get a million miles out of a GM LS engine, and it would be way cheaper to maintain than an MB to that point.   Not that I would want to get a million miles out of anything, I'm not a masochist.   100k miles is more than enough for me with one vehicle...

Edited February 12, 2020 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

It's clear the Blackwing V8 engine was Johan D's baby and the CT/XT naming was his idea as well. So they're possibly both gone with him leaving Cadillac. It's also clear that Steve Carlisle is now taking Cadillac in his direction and hopefully it's the right one, so far I really only disagree with canceling the Blackwing and CT6. It seems like they could build the CT6 at a different factory in limited numbers being that it's only been out for roughly 4 years now. There won't be reliability issues with the Blackwing as it's been torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles. The Escalade V could definitely resurrect the Blackwing when it debuts which would be awesome. I've also heard that there might be a Cadillac version of the C8 Vette coming that could possibly fit the Blackwing, what a perfect marriage that would be. I've seen and sat in the C8 and with it's huge flipped reverse angle headers there's still some room in the engine bay and having the Hot-V turbo setup in the Blackwing gives it more room on the sides as well. We shall see.    

[ccap41]

Everything gets torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles and things still happen. 

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Everything gets torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles and things still happen. 

Yes we have had plenty of Tahoe, Yukons, Escalades that have had dry engine knock and oil issues after being hard tested. Real world will always show what was missed in the QA process.

[USA-1]

It's comical to witness those of you on here who try to say that neither GM nor Cadillac compare to Mercedes Benz, but MB is almost always brought up by you guys for comparison in Cadillac posts. It's hilarious to witness you stumble all over yourselves, quite the show. 

I've owned or driven both so if you haven't owned or actually driven both luxury marques more than just around the block then you have no merit to your ridiculous comments.

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes we have had plenty of Tahoe, Yukons, Escalades that have had dry engine knock and oil issues after being hard tested. Real world will always show what was missed in the QA process.

Exactly, I can't imagine the time and money spent testing the Ford 1.6T that ended up having all sorts of issues. 

Oh, and the Powerstroke 6.0.

I've owned a Mercedes and currently have one in the household. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by ccap41

[USA-1]

I've owned two Cadillac's '13 CTS-V and '16 ELR and driven two MB's. One MB was a new CLK 55 AMG (buddy's car) back in '02 and more recently a '17 C Class (aunt's car), wasn't impressed by either one. The AMG engine sounded like a V8 should, but it's transmission was crap, hunted for and banged gears the whole time. The C Class rides like a buckboard wagon and is cramped. Fifteen years between both and still not impressed with MB and I never had any problems with either Cadillac I've owned.

Edited February 14, 2020 by USA-1

[smk4565]

I am surprised that the Escalade wasn't renamed XT7 to better align with the current naming scheme and also position it better against the segment leader BMW X7.  Because in GM thinking, an XT7 is greater than X7.

[balthazar]

^ LOL: you said BMW was the large SUV segment leader! Hahahahahaha!

[smk4565]

Well the X7 was the #3 seller in the segment in 2019, and it was only only on sale for 7-8 months.  We'll have to see how a full year goes with it, GLS and Escalade.  The journalists seem to like the X7.

 

And I am pretty sure the SRX was renamed XT5 solely because BMW makes an X5.  I bet 7 years ago Cadillac had a 4 hour meeting to debate whether to change the SRX name to XT5, QT5 or MLT. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by smk4565

[balthazar]

I'll take that bet- how much?

[regfootball]

If i bought a Cadillac (an expensive one) I would LOVE to have the blackwing DOHC plus 10 speed automatic combo.

A CT6 V with the same supercharged small block as the last how many years would have zero appeal to me.  

The hot V 4.2 turbo to me is the natural albeit way overdue evolution of the spirit of the Northstar motor.  Small block has a lot of fans, I just think those are more pony car fans.  Hate to see Cadillac never use this powertrain again.  

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I am surprised that the Escalade wasn't renamed XT7 to better align with the current naming scheme and also position it better against the segment leader BMW X7.  Because in GM thinking, an XT7 is greater than X7.

Thank heavens it was never renamed.  Cadillac needs more names, not fewer.

[balthazar]

42 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Well the X7 was the #3 seller in the segment in 2019,

Ahhh; you were only talking about the SALES leader.
Meh- who cares about that; no one who buys a given SUV in Septermber-March either knows or cares how the sales numbers may be ticking up.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

I'll take that bet- how much?

I actually think the GLS may reign supreme.  They have AMG and Maybach versions which BMW or anyone else doesn't have equivalents to.

36 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Ahhh; you were only talking about the SALES leader.
Meh- who cares about that; no one who buys a given SUV in Septermber-March either knows or cares how the sales numbers may be ticking up.

The X7 seems to be well reviewed and do well in comparison tests.  GLS and X7 are both superior to Escalade, Navigator and QX80 in jus about every way except towing and they aren't beat there by all that much.  These body on frame SUVs is like a Town Car going against an S-class.

[balthazar]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I actually think the GLS may reign supreme.  They have AMG and Maybach versions which BMW or anyone else doesn't have equivalents to.

Wait.... now you’re NOT talking about sales??

[oldshurst442]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I actually think the GLS may reign supreme.  They have AMG and Maybach versions which BMW or anyone else doesn't have equivalents to.

Nobody really cares about high speed FULLSIZED SUVs...

However, TOP DOG trim levels that are the toppest of the biggest SUV do matter.  Mercedes likes  AMG to be big their top dog trim level. They slap that badge on anything...so even if some models are TRUE performance vehicles true to the AMG badge and true to performance...not all AMGs ARE true performance cars...and therefore not even worthy of the AMG badge...

And in all honesty...BIG DEAL about performance oriented huge, heavy, high center of gravity SUVs!!!    In this example...a GLS AMG is what counts...

NO! Not the speed performance of the GLS, but the highest trim level of the GLS which happens to be AMG...

The thing is. Cadillac may not have the Blackwing V8 anymore, but Cadillac is thinking about using the Blackwing NAME as a TOP trim level Cadillac and the Escalade would surely get a Blackwing trim to compete with an AMG, Maybach, Culinan and Bentayga...  Whether THAT model gets THE Blackwing V8, or a supercharged version of the next LT2 V8 or is an EV of some sort remains to be seen...

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The X7 seems to be well reviewed and do well in comparison tests.  GLS and X7 are both superior to Escalade, Navigator and QX80 in jus about every way except towing and they aren't beat there by all that much.  These body on frame SUVs is like a Town Car going against an S-class.

The outgoing Escalade?

I HATE THESE DISCUSSIONS...but phoquing *SIGH*

The OUTGOING Escalade is 5-6 model years old.  I think its STILL the sales leader... and superior in what way?

I really dont care....BUT the 2021 Escalade REALLY addresses the shortcomings of the OUTGOING model!!! 

BOF SUV?

That would be YOUR way of dissing?  GTFO with that!!! 

Why?

Because this SUV below

Is a BOF SUV...

 

 

Its a skateboard platform...which essentially is BOF...

Dont cut your nose to spite your face...

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

The Blackwing 4.2V8 should still be available for Cadillac until the EVs come out in force.  As for the new Escalade, how do you improve that engine without a supercharger?  The 3.0 Diesel option is a nice touch.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Wait.... now you’re NOT talking about sales??

I was talking about sales, GLS should have more appeal since they have versions from 362 hp to 603 hp, and the Maybach which is segment exclusive luxury.  Much more bandwidth where as there is less choice at the competitors. 

53 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nobody really cares about high speed FULLSIZED SUVs...

However, TOP DOG trim levels that are the toppest of the biggest SUV do matter.  Mercedes likes  AMG to be big their top dog trim level. They slap that badge on anything...so even if some models are TRUE performance vehicles true to the AMG badge and true to performance...not all AMGs ARE true performance cars...and therefore not even worthy of the AMG badge...

And in all honesty...BIG DEAL about performance oriented huge, heavy, high center of gravity SUVs!!!    In this example...a GLS AMG is what counts...

NO! Not the speed performance of the GLS, but the highest trim level of the GLS which happens to be AMG...

 

Maybach is the top GLS trim.  

And if people didn't want high performance SUV's Lamborghini's #1 seller wouldn't be an SUV, Bentley wouldn't have a Bentayga Speed, Audi wouldn't have an SQ8, Ferrari wouldn't be joining the game, and no doubt Aston Martin's SUV will be their #1 seller.

[oldshurst442]

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I was talking about sales, GLS should have more appeal since they have versions from 362 hp to 603 hp, and the Maybach which is segment exclusive luxury.  Much more bandwidth where as there is less choice at the competitors. 

Maybach is the top GLS trim.  

And if people didn't want high performance SUV's Lamborghini's #1 seller wouldn't be an SUV, Bentley wouldn't have a Bentayga Speed, Audi wouldn't have an SQ8, Ferrari wouldn't be joining the game, and no doubt Aston Martin's SUV will be their #1 seller.

And all those SUVs sell by the handful...

BUT...

Those SUVs are not sold because of their performance...they are sold BECAUSE of the badge and SUVs are the flavour of the month  decade plus.  And BECAUSE these are Porsche, Lamborghini and future Ferrari SUVs...then what are these brands gonna sell their SUVs as? 

 Off roading?

Porsche decided to do both.  The Cayenne is a great off roader. Its an OK performance vehicle....  Its great for a big heavy thing, but as a performance machine...just good.

Lamborghini had an off roading SUV in the late 1980s early 1990s.  Didnt do too well in the market place.  So...Lamborghini does the Urus in the image of Lamborghini...but that too...is just an OK performance vehicle. Its great as a clumsy heavy machine...but as a true blue performance thing?  Meh by today's standards...

Aston Martin, Bentley, Ferrari, Rolls Royce...

They all want a piece of the pie because THAT is where the money is. And quite honestly...if these 4 last brands did SUVs 10 years ago, they'd all fail in the market place. Their conservative clientele would NOT accept SUVs from them respectively.  

Let's put it this way.  A snobby, stuck up,  Ferrari douce is not really begging Ferrari to sell him a high performance SUV...that guy is happy to keep on  buying F8 Tributos,  Super Fasts and 250 Lusso SWB classics.  Ferrari is gonna try to get that high priced Hollywood hooker that caters to Charlie Sheen  and Harvey Weinstein when he isnt raping...and trust me...that clientele doesnt give two shytes about how fast it will be.  But Ferrari WILL make it fast and make it handle...it will have the prancing horse on the front...but it will NOT be as fast or as agile as its cars though...why?  PHYSICS...

PS:  603 HP on an AMG GLS?

That is NOT the primary selling point on an AMG GLS...

Like you said...

Aston Martin, LAMBORGHINI AND FERRARI will reside in that niche.

Then there is TESLA.

Navigator, Escalade is on the other side of that SUV coin.

That is the thing...    (EQS you say?)

Cadillac KNOWS what the Escalade is and knows what the Escalade is NOT!!!

The way YOU describe it...and thankfully for Mercedes you are not in charge at M-B, the GLS would be one confused SUV?

What is it?

A Ferrari fighter?

An Escalade competitor?

A G Wagon playmate?

Its gonna carve out a niche for itself to be faster than an Escalade but slower than a Urus and somewhere in between a full blown off roader like a Wrangler but not too much as to not step on the G wagon toes? 

The you make the GLS sound...its one convoluted mess...

And that way...it will NEVER out sell the Escalade as the Escalade KNOWS what it is...and does what it does SUPERBLY!!!

Edited February 15, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

The bulk of gls sales are probably the cheapest 362 HP version, pretty far down from 420. GLS should start at 500 HP, and offer a 700 HP version. Their power ratings are behind the times.

The Escalade 'V' is rumored to have over 600 HP, and it's coming.
But what I want to see is how quickly the MB/BMW/Audi triplets copy the Escalade interior.

[smk4565]

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

The bulk of gls sales are probably the cheapest 362 HP version, pretty far down from 420. GLS should start at 500 HP, and offer a 700 HP version. Their power ratings are behind the times.

The Escalade 'V' is rumored to have over 600 HP, and it's coming.
But what I want to see is how quickly the MB/BMW/Audi triplets copy the Escalade interior.

The GLS 450 is no doubt the top seller, but it's 0-60 time is about the same as the Escalade or Navigator, and the GLS580 beats them both before even getting to the AMG.  There may be an AMG 73 hybrid GLS with 800 hp.

They need an Escalade-V even if it isn't any good.  Look at how Dodge got people to pay $80k for Hellcat Chargers that otherwise are a fleet sedan on a 20 year old platform.  That is like Ford selling $80k Crown Vics.  

I think Cadillac should make an Escalade ZR-1 with the 755 hp Corvette ZR-1 engine, even if it was rear drive only, delete the 3rd row to save weight and they could sell that for $180,000 easily.  Hell I would even rate it at 760 hp and advertise it as the most powerful GM vehicle ever.  

[balthazar]

Buyers see horsepower numbers- they don't race these. Power sells, mercedes is behind the times. For $76K, it should have a lot more base HP.

Escalade V is coming, it will take the "segment leader" SUV and elevate it even more.

I think mercedes should make a GLS designed in this millenium, with the powertrain from the cancelled AMG One, and advertise it as the most powerful Daimler vehicle ever. Even if it isn't any good.

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Buyers see horsepower numbers- they don't race these. Power sells, mercedes is behind the times. For $76K, it should have a lot more base HP.

Escalade V is coming, it will take the "segment leader" SUV and elevate it even more.

I think mercedes should make a GLS designed in this millenium, with the powertrain from the cancelled AMG One, and advertise it as the most powerful Daimler vehicle ever. Even if it isn't any good.

Given that Daimler had some serious losses last year, I do not think they would redesign the GLS anytime soon.  Dieselgate still needs to be paid for first.

[smk4565]

They redesigned the GLS for 2020 model year.  And all GLS have electric motor boost so you have instant torque to bridge the gap to that 2,000 rpm point where gas engine torque starts kicking in.

Also Mercedes doesn't really need a "hellcat" or "zr-1" sort of ultra GLS because it isn't a Mercedes halo product.   The AMG GT, S-class, SL, G-wagen are their halo product, the GLS is like 5th in their hierarchy, where as an Escalade is by far the flagship Cadillac, the brand doesn't have anything else.  Likewise with Lincoln and the Navigator.  

Mercedes already has $200,000 product for the fans that will pay that price.   Cadillac does not have $200,000 product, but I would bet there are some die hard Cadillac fans out there that would spend $200,000 on a 755 hp Escalade with 2wd and Michelin Pilot Sport tires even if it is pointless, just so they can say they have the ultimate Escalade. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Given that Daimler had some serious losses last year, I do not think they would redesign the GLS anytime soon.  Dieselgate still needs to be paid for first.

Don't forget- they're also letting go of 15,000 employees to cut costs.
Those cut costs are sure to show up in the next refreshes.

They redesigned the GLS for 2020 model year.

The problem is, it's incredibly dated. They're still sticking with the early 2000's ML design language.
They need to get competitive in design because it's mad stale.

[smk4565]

Daimler is still turning a healthy profit, just not as high as before.  Ford had a $47 million profit last year, Lewis Hamilton made more than that.  
 

Daimler spent $10.3 billion on R&D last year which rose from the year before.  Profit is down because EV and autonomous driving costs money.  Better for them to pour money in now and be ready than to cut R&D and be screwed when the market shifts.

[balthazar]

If daimler considers it healthy’, why dump 15,000 employees? And you forget dieselgate costs, which are still ongoing.

Further, mercedes have higher annual maintenance & repair costs than any other brand, with translates to ever-higher warranty costs by the company. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:03 PM, smk4565 said:

I am surprised that the Escalade wasn't renamed XT7 to better align with the current naming scheme and also position it better against the segment leader BMW X7.  Because in GM thinking, an XT7 is greater than X7.

Ya know that type of stupid thinking is what has hurt the rest of Cadillac. A german idiot trying to make Cadillac like the germans. Will never happen and cannot come fast enough to dump the ICE German bullshit names and back to real American Names on the EVs.

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Ya know that type of stupid thinking is what has hurt the rest of Cadillac. A german idiot trying to make Cadillac like the germans. Will never happen and cannot come fast enough to dump the ICE German bull$h! names and back to real American Names on the EVs.

I tend to think that a lot of this is because, Escalade aside, Cadillac does not lean into its American-ness enough.  We all know what MB, BMW and Audi are and stand for.  What is Cadillac's USP?  Names matter too.

[balthazar]

I have no idea what BMW or mercedes stands for. I want to say 'luxury' but their respective dives into cheap FWD appliances shatters that definition.

[riviera74]

35 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I have no idea what BMW or mercedes stands for. I want to say 'luxury' but their respective dives into cheap FWD appliances shatters that definition.

Mercedes, yes.  BMW was wise to make MINI the cheap FWD appliance.  There is no such thing as a cheap BMW FWD appliance. . . . presuming that all X vehicles are as RWD as their sedans.

[oldshurst442]

45 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Mercedes, yes.  BMW was wise to make MINI the cheap FWD appliance.  There is no such thing as a cheap BMW FWD appliance. . . . presuming that all X vehicles are as RWD as their sedans.

I present to you the BMW 1 Series Hatch, 2 Series Grand Coupé (4 doors) and 2 Series Coupe. Based on a certain MINI...dont know which one. Dont really care either. 

 

All these years...all those shytty American car magazines....all these asshat American car buyers swearing off GM, Ford forever because of downsizing and FWD architecture and them switching to the German brands..  All that commotion,  bitching about wrong wheel drive and torque steer...

ALL THOSE BMW CUVs...ALL THOSE BMW 3 SERIES  and 5 SERIES WITH AWD SOLD SINCE THE 2000s...  ( AWD...adding weight for nothing!!!)

THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE  ?

I NOW HAVE THE LAST LAUGH!!!

AND A BIG MIDDLE FINGER TO ALL THOSE BMW DOUCHE BAGS AND AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE JOURNALISTS IN THE 1980s AND 1990s  THAT SHYTTED ON FWD PONTIACS AND CADILLACS ALL THESE YEARS!!!

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by oldshurst442