Mercedez Benz News Mercedes-AMG Models Endangered in EU

[Drew Dowdell]

New European carbon emissions rules are coming into effect soon and that will have a negative effect on models from a number of manufacturers.  Mercedes-AMG is known for its high-output vehicles, but that also generally makes them more polluting as well. 

Mercedes wants to cut its CO2 emissions from the current 138 grams per kilometer to 100 grams per kilometer. This would hit its most powerful models the hardest.  In the overall European market, 35 percent of new vehicles sold are sport utility vehicles which generally have higher emissions than cars.  Customers' appetite for SUVs could force Mercedes to cut their AMG variants offered by up to 75%.  AMG will attempt to get around some of these cuts by introducing electrification in more of its vehicles, however, engine downsizing seems to be in play here as well. 

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[smk4565]

Hybrid an EV.  Problem solved.  

[riviera74]

An AMG Hybrid.  Sounds interesting. No idea if MB will actually do that.  MB should make their SUVs hybrids standard if they do not want to ditch AMG altogether.

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

An AMG Hybrid.  Sounds interesting. No idea if MB will actually do that.  MB should make their SUVs hybrids standard if they do not want to ditch AMG altogether.

All the 53’s are mild hybrid now and the V8s starting on 2020 model year are switching over to that.  AMG One is hybrid, that is their short term future, full electric is longer term.

This effects every one though.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

All the 53’s are mild hybrid now and the V8s starting on 2020 model year are switching over to that.  AMG One is hybrid, that is their short term future, full electric is longer term.

This effects every one though.

Get Ready for MB to move to Hybrid FWD Everything, special high price for those RWD and AWD V8 machines and did you not get the memo? AMG One is dead.  

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Get Ready for MB to move to Hybrid FWD Everything, special high price for those RWD and AWD V8 machines and did you not get the memo? AMG One is dead.  

RWD hybrid everything, outside of A-class based cars like GLA/GLB.   Technically, the E-class, GLE and GLS are hybrids now, plug-ing hybrid AMG GT, GLS, S-class are likely coming.  They have stated all 275 AMG Ones will be delivered in 2021.

Rumor is the next C63 is going to use a turbo 4 with an electric motor.  They will hybrid everything in the short term, post 2030 I think they want to be all electric.  

[balthazar]

[smk4565]

Climate change is real, regulations are going to come hard to combat it.  I am not worried about AMG’s ability to rise to a challenge.  Everyone has the same rules to follow.

[ocnblu]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Climate change is real

No sh*t it's real.  It's been happening since Mother Earth was born.  Why the sudden, arrogant assumption that humans can do diddly squat about it?  Go away, Greta!

[surreal1272]

A bit off the subject but while I have no opinion on her personally, I find it absolutely hilarious that a 16 year old with Aspergers has the president and his supporters in such a fit.

 

Be careful Blu! Gretas gonna get ya’!!

[ocnblu]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

A bit off the subject but while I have no opinion on her personally, I find it absolutely hilarious that a 16 year old with Aspergers has the president and his supporters in such a fit.

 

Be careful Blu! Gretas gonna get ya’!!

She certainly is meme-worthy.  Especially when she's doing normal things while espousing the abnormal.

[balthazar]

It is a bit puzzling how much attention she's getting; I'm not aware what graduate courses she's successfully taken to be any kind of expert.

[ocnblu]

She's a weird little girl

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

She's a weird little girl

So are you but we don’t hold it against you.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

It is a bit puzzling how much attention she's getting; I'm not aware what graduate courses she's successfully taken to be any kind of expert.

Pretty sure regardless of ones stance on this, she doesn’t have to possess a degree in order to be passionate about her cause. It’s also kind of presumptuous that she doesn’t have some experience with this just because she’s 16. 

[ocnblu]

surreal's modus operandi:  simply be contrary to everyone.  What a way to win friends.  Tic Tac?

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

surreal's modus operandi:  simply be contrary to everyone.  What a way to win friends.  Tic Tac?

Says the fool who trolls subjects he clearly has no interest in. Now go back in the corner before Greta spanks you. 
 

And who says I’m trying to win friends? Your continued assumptions about my intentions over the course of this year has been nothing short of laugh out loud dumb. Of course, that’s familiar territory for you so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that you are so bitter. 

[ocnblu]

Grrrrl, you got issues

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Pretty sure regardless of ones stance on this, she doesn’t have to possess a degree in order to be passionate about her cause. It’s also kind of presumptuous that she doesn’t have some experience with this just because she’s 16. 

No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

[G. David Felt]

51 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

Wonder if her parents are college educated? ?

[surreal1272]

52 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

Again, irrelevant and especially since those same climate scientists echo her sentiments about the climate and back it up with actual data. I do get what you’re saying though but I just don’t think her “qualifications” are all that important in this context. Just my opinion and this has gotten a little too far off the subject anyway. 

[ocnblu]

26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Wonder if her parents are college educated? ?

Her parents are actors, as is she.  She's on IMDB.

[ocnblu]

https://www.imdb.com/find?q=greta+thunberg&ref_=nv_sr_sm

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

https://www.imdb.com/find?q=greta+thunberg&ref_=nv_sr_sm

Thank you, another youthful look at me, me and only me. Ignore the man behind the curtain.  

[surreal1272]

On 12/20/2019 at 5:04 PM, ocnblu said:

Her parents are actors, as is she.  She's on IMDB.

Are you really so insecure that you had to dig through the internet and all you find is this? You should have went one link further there. Here is her “IMDB” which are all interviews and docuseries from 2019. Poor little Blu, threatened by a little sixteen year old girl. Somehow, it doesn’t really surprise me. 
 

“oooh, her parents were actors”. 
 

So F’ing what. Our president is a reality tv with five bankruptcies and three marriages full of adultery but it’s the little girl that gets your panties in a bunch. It’s laughably sad. 

13 hours ago, dfelt said:

Thank you, another youthful look at me, me and only me. Ignore the man behind the curtain.  

Read the actual link to her “shows” and you will see why Blu is just trying to troll extra hard here. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

First off, this is about Greta.  Secondly, I did not dig anywhere, I knew about it long ago.  Thirdly, everyone knows she speaks from a script.  Fourthly, tying Greta to the thread was only a little bit off topic, because EU governments are shooting themselves with the same gun she carries, when she has talking points given to her.  Fifthly, I was replying to dfelt's question about her parents, not anything to do with you, is everything about you?  And sixthly, why are you obsessed with me as of late?  Hasn't anyone else said anything that warrants having you emerge fromunda that bridge? 

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

First off, this is about Greta.  Secondly, I did not dig anywhere, I knew about it long ago.  Thirdly, everyone knows she speaks from a script.  Fourthly, tying Greta to the thread was only a little bit off topic, because EU governments are shooting themselves with the same gun she carries, when she has talking points given to her.  Fifthly, I was replying to dfelt's question about her parents, not anything to do with you, is everything about you?  And sixthly, why are you obsessed with me as of late?  Hasn't anyone else said anything that warrants having you emerge fromunda that bridge? 

“I knew about it long ago”.

 

Sure you did. And you are the one who brought up Greta in response to SMKs post (shooting down your “fifthly” point because you started it, end of story) so how about holding yourself responsible for your own BS for once. 

 

“Everyone knows she speaks from a script”

 

No $h! Sherlock. I’d advise you look up and actually research Aspergers before sounding completely dumb on this one. Ad libbing is not a strong point for those with the condition. 

 

 

That “obsessed” bs is just that, BS. No one is forcing you to respond to me, no one. I responded to your post like any person here would do. You just don’t like the responses. My advice to you on that is “suck it up buttercup”. This is just more whining like you did back in August on the Random Thoughts thread. You are the one who is “obsessed” hence your rabid trolling in various threads about subjects you dislike yet cant stop talking about. How about being a hypocrite and whiny baby on your own time and stop polluting this place with the same nonsense you have posted for years when things don’t go your way.

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

 

AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

Not off by much but it is stated that the M5 is 241 g/km of CO2.

https://www.nextgreencar.com/emissions/make-model/bmw/m5/

Which is higher than the Mercedes AMG version at 200 g/km of CO2

https://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/75323/mercedes-benz-e-class-saloon-e-53-amg-premium-4matic+-speedshift-tct-petrol-semi-automatic-9-speed/

Course all performance auto's have high CO2 output, corvette is no difference for what is sold in Europe.

Yet like you are fond of stating, Hybrids / EVs will fix it all and replace the ICE version.

Corvette is expected to have a Twin Turbo V8 Hybrid version to reduce those emissions.

https://www.motor1.com/news/384042/c8-chevy-zr1-hybrid-900hp/

 

[smk4565]

But a hybrid V8 is still a lot of emissions.  Something like a Corvette, M5, or an AMG needs a 4 cylinder and 1 or 2 electric motors.  Sure for really expensive you could do a V8 but the V8 in a few years is going to be like a V12 of the 2010s, reserved for quarter million dollar cars.  

AMG does have a plan for a 2 liter turbo 4 hybrid with over 500 hp.  And I suspect they could easily get over 500 hp from the inline six if they wanted, and add an electric motor to that.  But this is all low volume cars, the key really is to get the mainstream stuff down.

[balthazar]

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

Doubtful anytime soon. How's the 2.7T in the Silverado selling, BTW?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Doubtful anytime soon. How's the 2.7T in the Silverado selling, BTW?

Is it their #1 volume engine?

[balthazar]

Not remotely... but I would like to see the numbers. I would guess by combing new truck inventory that the 5.3 is 75% of production, with the 2.7, 4.3, 6.2 and 6.6 taking up the rest.

[G. David Felt]

20 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not remotely... but I would like to see the numbers. I would guess by combing new truck inventory that the 5.3 is 75% of production, with the 2.7, 4.3, 6.2 and 6.6 taking up the rest.

Might not want to buy one any time soon as the Turbo 4 banger has been getting bad press.

https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/227170-2019-t1-silverado-4cyl-engine-problems/

I loved this post in the thread, LOL

[balthazar]

Don't have to tell me the V8 is the way to go.
More folk must be comfortable in the early part of the 21st century than the media lets on.

[smk4565]

AMG will become compliant with batteries and electricity.  

[Robert Hall]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

AMG will become compliant with batteries and electricity.  

Tesla has proven a performance EV can sell, so it's doable...

[balthazar]

String of failures so far from daimler...

[smk4565]

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

String of failures so far from daimler...

They'll probably be the last performance maker left.  Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program.  BMW thought the i8 was a performance car, please.  The Japanese don't do performance now unless they buy the car off BMW.  I like AMG's chances against that crowd.

[balthazar]

Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

Edited January 19, 2020 by balthazar

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp, I don't think they could make 500 hp from 2 liters.   GM will ride the V8 in North America until an EV mandate kicks in.  GM doesn't sell performance products or full size SUVs in China, so they can use 2 liter and less engines and hybrids there.  GM has no European business so they don't have to worry about that.  So the only question in the USA is how long gas is cheap and how long consumer demand is there for 6 liter engines whether that be Corvettes or pick up trucks.

[balthazar]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think they could make 500 hp from 2 liters.

THEY’VE ALREADY DONE IT.

[Robert Hall]

10 minutes ago, balthazar said:

THEY’VE ALREADY DONE IT.

In a production vehicle?   I think not...

Edited January 19, 2020 by Robert Hall

[riviera74]

The V8 will still survive and probably thrive here in the USA until BEVs render the entire line of ICE engines obsolete.  That may not happen for another 15-20 years minimum. 

MB will simply sell the AMG models where the V8 is not somehow banned, like the USA or the Middle East.  Now if $5/gal or higher ever returns, then AMG (and a lot of other vehicles) will have a problem finding customers.

[balthazar]

54 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

In a production vehicle?   I think not...

No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

[Robert Hall]

40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

If its not in production, it's not real...means nothing, can't compare to production products..

Edited January 19, 2020 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

BS. Everything in production was engineered to that spec, pre-production.  Can't have the latter without the former.

smk : "Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program."

smk was speaking hypothetically, and I gave past evidence that disproves his future hypothesis.  'Production' is irrelevant to the discussion, which was about the ability.

[Robert Hall]

The idea of a 4cyl Corvette is pretty horrific... 

[smk4565]

GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.  I think Daimler and VW (outside of Tesla) are best equipped to meet the MPG standards, CO2 emission regulations, etc that all these countries put out and the fuel economy and power that customers demand.  They both see the future and have the resources and engineering to do it.

AMG is still going to have the V8 at the top end until they go pure EV sometime in the 2030s, but they can easily replace 3 liter   V6s with 2 liter 4's, replace some V8s with 3 liter inline sixes and they already said the next C63 and S63 are plug-in hybrids, so they can take care of emissions and fuel economy and not lose any performance.

[balthazar]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp...

They've also used 6.2L to make 640 HP. It's called 'tuning'.

GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.

Didn't I mention the 2.0L engine in a full-size pick-up only a few posts earlier??