Cadillac News: Cadillac CT6 DHam Production to End in January

[Drew Dowdell]

The Cadillac CT6 will end production in January 2020 the company confirmed as part of a letter to 800 employees due to be laid off. This means that the 2020 CT6 will be the final model year for the car in the U.S.. Like the recently announced cancellation of the Buick Regal in the U.S., the CT6 will continue in production in China where sedan sales are still big. 

The news of the CT6's cancellation is not a surprise. GM's Detroit Hamtramck was originally slated for closure until the negotiations with the UAW brought some product back to the plant.  GM is planning on building the next generation of EV trucks and SUVs at the plant including the possible return of the Hummer nameplate.  Once the CT6 departs, the only sedans in Cadillac's lineup will be the new CT4 and CT5 that are just entering production now.

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[ccap41]

It blows my mind they only gave this like two years before announcing it was canceled. 

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It blows my mind they only gave this like two years before announcing it was canceled. 

Mary Barra's GM.... cut your way to prosperity. 

 

[USA-1]

Just read this on the Cadillac Society site. GM bean counters are just making more bad decisions canceling a model that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars on R&D and never really even marketed it, Volt is another car that comes to mind. They could have kept the XT6 on the CT6's Omega platform to help with costs and just build CT6 in limited quantities like MB does with the S and BMW does with the 7, they've never really been big volume cars in the fullsize luxury sedan class.

I'm going to go drive a CT6-V Blackwing that my go to Caddy dealer has. They had 6 sold 3, 2 black, 1 white left on this shipment.

Edited December 5, 2019 by USA-1

[USA-1]

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Mary Barra's GM.... cut your way to prosperity. 

 

Mary's just the messenger for the top brass bean counters, you know that.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I read about Holden this morning and now this. What is wrong with GM? They cannot get anything right, out on time , or be competitive. How did so a mighty storied company be cut down to what it is now? Killing those brands solved no problems. It exposed the many issues of GM. It left many countries globally too.  Buick is now an suv/crossover brand in the United States.  Cadillac after ten years is still not fixed. I guess the bigger issue is how do you fix all of GM?  What is wrong with GM? It is getting harder for enthusiasts to support GM. It is sad when you say "they make nothing for me".  Sad truth is... they do not.  I guess the enthusiast are not the the majority and we are the minority. Sad indeed....

[Robert Hall]

8 minutes ago, NINETY EIGHT REGENCY said:

  What is wrong with GM? It is getting harder for enthusiasts to support GM. It is sad when you say "they make nothing for me".  Sad truth is... they do not.  I guess the enthusiast are not the the majority and we are the minority. Sad indeed....

Very true...the masses that lease generic CUVs are the core of the market.    GM is focusing on vanilla lease appliances, trying to be like Toyota.    Vehicles so boring that most will not be remembered in 5-10 years. 

And they are wasting names that had some potential like Trailblazer and Blazer on generic CUVs;  what if the Ford Bronco is successful?  GM has nothing like that and is unlikely to do anything like that because it doesn't fit the transverse engine generic mediocre configuration... 

I suspect the CT4 and CT5 are doomed also...

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

38 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Mary Barra's GM.... cut your way to prosperity. 

 

I mean, I understand it but, if you're trying to rebuild a luxurious reputation, you are going to have to take losses until the brand catches fire and gains(regains) its reputation. 

This just doesn't seem like the direction Cadillac should be heading. It's just a feeling they're almost "giving up" and letting the Germans stay up top. 

They seemed like they were in a really good spot with the most recent generation and these new generations should have built upon those instead of feeling like they're going backward. 

[Robert Hall]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

 

This just doesn't seem like the direction Cadillac should be heading. It's just a feeling they're almost "giving up" and letting the Germans stay up top. 

 

I think they are settling for competing at the tier 2 level, against Lexus's FWD based generic CUVs rather than competing at the top level...since transverse engine/FWD mediocrity fits their model.   Basically rebodied mediocre appliances also seen at Chevy, Buick/GMC dealers with different chrome trim and styling, but the same soulless gray plastic mediocrity at the core.  Forgettable appliances. 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

RIP CT6, killed by GM's board room bean counters before your time really was up and not able to show what you could bring to the world globally.

RIP CT6

This truly keeps me in SUVs as the 4 & 5 are just too small.

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I think they are settling for competing at the tier 2 level, against Lexus's FWD based generic CUVs rather than competing at the top level...since transverse engine/FWD mediocrity fits their model. 

In some ways, it's like the 80s all over again when GM went all in for mediocrity w/ FWD generics at every brand.

This approach at GM is what could make my next auto purchase a non-gm product.

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I think they are settling for competing at the tier 2 level, against Lexus's FWD based generic CUVs rather than competing at the top level...since transverse engine/FWD mediocrity fits their model.   Basically rebodied mediocre appliances also seen at Chevy, Buick/GMC dealers with different chrome trim and styling, but the same soulless gray plastic mediocrity at the core.  Forgettable appliances. 

 

It's just a shame because only a couple years ago everybody's view of Cadillac was that they're 7 tiers above Lincoln and now they're struggling to compete with anything Lincoln has come out with recently. Granted, some of that is Lincoln escalating their portfolio but, a lot of it is Cadillac laying down. 

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

RIP CT6, killed by GM's board room bean counters before your time really was up and not able to show what you could bring to the world globally.

It's still sold outside of the US. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

It's just a shame because only a couple years ago everybody's view of Cadillac was that they're 7 tiers above Lincoln and now they're struggling to compete with anything Lincoln has come out with recently. Granted, some of that is Lincoln escalating their portfolio but, a lot of it is Cadillac laying down. 

I have some serious doubts that the new Escalade is going to go to the next level like the Navigator did in the most recent iteration. I just no longer have the confidence that GM will do the right thing.  Dropping the Blackwing from the option sheet on the Escalade is what convinced me of that. 

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It's just a shame because only a couple years ago everybody's view of Cadillac was that they're 7 tiers above Lincoln and now they're struggling to compete with anything Lincoln has come out with recently. Granted, some of that is Lincoln escalating their portfolio but, a lot of it is Cadillac laying down. 

It's still sold outside of the US. 

China only, so that to me is not global, GM seems to be repeating mistakes they made here in the US. Sad, very sad!

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

China only, so that to me is not global, GM seems to be repeating mistakes they made here in the US. Sad, very sad!

Two countries is "global" to you? 

[USA-1]

11 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I think they are settling for competing at the tier 2 level, against Lexus's FWD based generic CUVs rather than competing at the top level...since transverse engine/FWD mediocrity fits their model.   Basically rebodied mediocre appliances also seen at Chevy, Buick/GMC dealers with different chrome trim and styling, but the same soulless gray plastic mediocrity at the core.  Forgettable appliances. 

 

No, they just released the RWD/AWD CT4 and CT5. GM top brass never even gave it a chance being it just came out in 2016 and it didn't sell well because they never properly marketed it...and again it just came out in 2016. They're just making room for the BEV3 platform at D-HAM. Sucks...

[Robert Hall]

6 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

No, they just released the RWD/AWD CT4 and CT5. GM top brass never even gave it a chance being it just came out in 2016 and it didn't sell well because they never properly marketed it...and again it just came out in 2016. They're just making room for the BEV3 platform at D-HAM. Sucks...

Oh I know about the CT4 and CT5....never see them, though...part of the problem with the CT4 and CT5 as far competing against others in the compact and midsize luxury market (M-B, BMW) is the lack of body styles...no coupes, no convertibles...albeit those are a small niche, but for luxury cars, why not?   Instead Cadillac keeps pushing the generic XT* crossovers....volume lease appliances.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

Oh I know about the CT4 and CT5....never see them, I suspect they will fail...

They're not really out yet. Just about hitting dealers now. 

Though I suspect you are right if only because sedan sales are tanking so hard lately. 

[USA-1]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have some serious doubts that the new Escalade is going to go to the next level like the Navigator did in the most recent iteration. I just no longer have the confidence that GM will do the right thing.  Dropping the Blackwing from the option sheet on the Escalade is what convinced me of that. 

I'll ask my Cadillac guru at the dealership to see what he's hearing from Corp.

Navigator is TTV6 only so Ford isn't making the best decisions either.

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They're not really out yet. Just about hitting dealers now. 

Though I suspect you are right if only because sedan sales are tanking so hard lately. 

I just can't see them succeeding against the established brands...so many models in the compact and midsize luxury segment...there is nothing special about them. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

I'll ask my Cadillac guru at the dealership to see what he's hearing from Corp.

Navigator is TTV6 only so Ford isn't making the best decisions either.

The navigator's engine is perfectly fine. It has gobs of torque and it pulls hard. 

 

and I'm not one who particularly likes the Ecoboost engines. 

[USA-1]

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

China only, so that to me is not global, GM seems to be repeating mistakes they made here in the US. Sad, very sad!

They build the CT6 in the Chinese factory and ship them throughout EMEIA. Sedans just aren't selling here, sales are down for all manf's in all classes of sedans. Still think CT6 could be offered in limited quantities here. It comes down to plant space and BEV3 is the big push now.  

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The navigator's engine is perfectly fine. It has gobs of torque and it pulls hard. 

 

and I'm not one who particularly likes the Ecoboost engines. 

And the Navigator has 500 ft/lbs of torque while the Escalade has 460.   Sounds like it's more than adequate.

[USA-1]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They're not really out yet. Just about hitting dealers now. 

Though I suspect you are right if only because sedan sales are tanking so hard lately. 

I hope they can make it and they're priced right compared to the ATS and CTS. They actually did a great job at making room in the CT4 compared to the ATS too. I can still comfortably fit in the new CT4 at 6'3", but the ATS was cramped in front and back.

[ccap41]

510lb-ft @ 3500rpm vs 460lb-ft @ 4100rpm 

I don't think there's any issue there. 

[USA-1]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

And the Navigator has 500 ft/lbs of torque while the Escalade has 460.   Sounds like it's more than adequate.

It's still a small V6 however you slice it. More moving parts to fail hauling that much weight around and the EB is still a fail. Have a buddy who is a mechanic for Ford, good for him, but not for Ford. Love live the small block V8 if only at GM and FCA/PSA. ?

[Robert Hall]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

It's still a small V6 however you slice it. More moving parts to fail hauling that much weight around and the EB is still a fail. Have a buddy who is a mechanic for Ford, good for him, but not for Ford. Love live the small block V8 if only at GM and FCA/PSA. ?

99% of the buyers probably won't care or notice if it's a V6 or V8, and as long at lasts 3 years for a lease that will be fine for most consumers....yes, enthusiasts might prefer a V8, but most of the market aren't enthusiasts...

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The navigator's engine is perfectly fine. It has gobs of torque and it pulls hard. 

 

and I'm not one who particularly likes the Ecoboost engines. 

Still a small V6 any way you look at it. A fullsize luxury BOF SUV should have a proper V8. GM will thankfully continue that. Maybe they'll offer the new 5.5L flatplane crank Vette engine! Talk about torque

Edited December 5, 2019 by USA-1

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, USA-1 said:

Still a small V6 any way you look at it. A fullsize luxury BOF SUV should have a proper V8. GM will thankfully continue that. Maybe they'll offer the new 5.5L flatplane crank Vette engine! Talk about torque

Unlikely. It will be the same 6.2 liter most likely

[USA-1]

52 minutes ago, NINETY EIGHT REGENCY said:

I read about Holden this morning and now this. What is wrong with GM? They cannot get anything right, out on time , or be competitive. How did so a mighty storied company be cut down to what it is now? Killing those brands solved no problems. It exposed the many issues of GM. It left many countries globally too.  Buick is now an suv/crossover brand in the United States.  Cadillac after ten years is still not fixed. I guess the bigger issue is how do you fix all of GM?  What is wrong with GM? It is getting harder for enthusiasts to support GM. It is sad when you say "they make nothing for me".  Sad truth is... they do not.  I guess the enthusiast are not the the majority and we are the minority. Sad indeed....

Starts at the top. Too much old school top brass mostly still in place...that's the problem they're just a bunch of impatient old b@stards haha!

[USA-1]

9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Unlikely. It will be the same 6.2 liter most likely

I was kidding about the 5.5L flatplane, way too loud for luxury use.

6.2 is a great engine, but we should see some more juice and they now have the new 6.6L that could come in with more power for Escalade, output is held back big time in the HD's. 495hp out of the new 6.2L LT2 in NA form in C8 too.

Edited December 5, 2019 by USA-1

[Robert Hall]

So I wonder what will happen to the Blackwing V8?  I thought the Chinese market CT6 was mostly 2.0 4s.   Will this engine just be another GM waste, or will it end up in a higher performance version of the C8? 

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Still a small V6 any way you look at it. A fullsize luxury BOF SUV should have a proper V8. GM will thankfully continue that. Maybe they'll offer the new 5.5L flatplane crank Vette engine! Talk about torque

"Flat plane crank" and "torque" is an oxymoron. 

[USA-1]

25 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

And the Navigator has 500 ft/lbs of torque while the Escalade has 460.   Sounds like it's more than adequate.

40 more lb. ft.? ? For now...

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

40 more lb. ft.? ? For now...

Well, they are in the same ballpark....adequate for the use case...these aren't F350 crew cab duallies. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

"Flat plane crank" and "torque" is an oxymoron. 

Comes with twin turbo's in C8 which is what I was mentioning to Drew. 5.5L FP coming in TT form for Z06. Your welcome. 

[ccap41]

I'll believe it when I see it with GM axing everything or making everything FWD-based...along with throwing away the 4.2 Blackwing. 

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Comes with twin turbo's in C8 which is what I was mentioning to Drew. 5.5L FP coming in TT form for Z06. Your welcome. 

Nothing official about that yet, though?  Just a rumor at this point I thought...

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Comes with twin turbo's in C8 which is what I was mentioning to Drew. 5.5L FP coming in TT form for Z06. Your welcome. 

The Blackwing would make more sense in the Escalade, and that's headed to the bin. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Mary Barra's GM.... cut your way to prosperity. 

 

That was Rick Wagoner’s GM also

[USA-1]

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Nothing official about that yet, though?  Just a rumor at this point I thought...

https://www.motortrend.com/news/c8-corvette-z06-flat-plane-crank-twin-turbo-v-8/

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Blackwing would make more sense in the Escalade, and that's headed to the bin. 

It would probably be perfect and more efficient just too spendy to hand build. I'm going to drive the CT6-V here in a bit. I'll let ya know. Want some video? ????

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

Just read this on the Cadillac Society site. GM bean counters are just making more bad decisions canceling a model that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars on R&D and never really even marketed it, Volt is another car that comes to mind. They could have kept the XT6 on the CT6's Omega platform to help with costs and just build CT6 in limited quantities like MB does with the S and BMW does with the 7, they've never really been big volume cars in the fullsize luxury sedan class.

I'm going to go drive a CT6-V Blackwing that my go to Caddy dealer has. They had 6 sold 3, 2 black, 1 white left on this shipment.

Mercedes has sold over 500,000 of the current S-class world wide, so it isn’t such a small volume.

XT6 should have been an Omega platform crossover, I agree with you there and probably they could have made 2 crossovers on Omega to keep the platform viable.

[USA-1]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has sold over 500,000 of the current S-class world wide, so it isn’t such a small volume.

XT6 should have been an Omega platform crossover, I agree with you there and probably they could have made 2 crossovers on Omega to keep the platform viable.

I'm talking yearly low volume sales. S Class has been around for decades so 500K is pretty low volume world wide.

This "new plan" is clearly why Johan D left GM so abruptly. Someone needs to clear out the old bean counters who have been screwing GM over from the top for decades.

Edited December 5, 2019 by USA-1

[smk4565]

24 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

So I wonder what will happen to the Blackwing V8?  I thought the Chinese market CT6 was mostly 2.0 4s.   Will this engine just be another GM waste, or will it end up in a higher performance version of the C8? 

I think it is a waste because China has a displacement tax increase at 4.0 liters, so the tax would be more than the 3.99 liter German V8s.  And I don’t think there is any V8 demand there anyway.

And since Cadillac didn’t make rest drive crossovers like I have been saying they should do for years, there is no where to use this engine.

1 minute ago, USA-1 said:

I'm talking yearly low volume sales. S Class has been around for decades so 500K is pretty low volume world wide.

This "new plan" is clearly why Johan D left GM so abruptly. Someone needs to clear out the old bean counters who have been screwing GM over from the top for decades.

500k since 2014 model year.  The W222 chassis S-class passed 500k units last week. So we are talking about 80k a year which is pretty good at a $125k a unit.

[USA-1]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think it is a waste because China has a displacement tax increase at 4.0 liters, so the tax would be more than the 3.99 liter German V8s.  And I don’t think there is any V8 demand there anyway.

And since Cadillac didn’t make rest drive crossovers like I have been saying they should do for years, there is no where to use this engine.

I was just chatting with my Caddy dealer buddy. They just had a meeting about it this morning. GM is considering the Blackwing in an Escalade-V. Lord please!!

[USA-1]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think it is a waste because China has a displacement tax increase at 4.0 liters, so the tax would be more than the 3.99 liter German V8s.  And I don’t think there is any V8 demand there anyway.

And since Cadillac didn’t make rest drive crossovers like I have been saying they should do for years, there is no where to use this engine.

500k since 2014 model year.  The W222 chassis S-class passed 500k units last week. So we are talking about 80k a year which is pretty good at a $125k a unit.

Interesting, but still pretty low considering. For instance, GM sells 30-35K Vettes a year compared to Camaro or Malibu numbers in the 100's of thousands.  

[smk4565]

I had read they won’t use the Blackwing in the Escalade and I forget the reason but I think they should use it.  Hell I’d make it the standard engine offer a 500 hp tune base and a 600 hp tune for V.

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Interesting, but still pretty low considering. For instance, GM sells 30-35K Vettes a year compared to Camaro or Malibu numbers in the 100's of thousands.  

And they probably make nearly zero profit on a Malibus and GM is going to lose money on every C8 under $80k.  The beancounters won’t let that go on long.

[Robert Hall]

38 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Interesting, but still pretty low considering. For instance, GM sells 30-35K Vettes a year compared to Camaro or Malibu numbers in the 100's of thousands.  

Camaro and Malibu are likely gone in a few years...

[Drew Dowdell]

They're not going to use it because it costs too much. 

[ccap41]

80k units per year in a $100,000+ vehicle is anything but low volume. That's 2-4 times what the Corvette sells and I think we all agree the Vette sells very well for it's price. 

46 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I had read they won’t use the Blackwing in the Escalade and I forget the reason but I think they should use it.  Hell I’d make it the standard engine offer a 500 hp tune base and a 600 hp tune for V.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/new-cadillac-escalade-ct5-v-no-blackwing-v8/

Costs. 

[surreal1272]

Smooth move GM. Cut out the top of the line sedan that you never bothered to properly market after millions spent developing it. The good news, though, is that it will lead to some smoking deals on a nice ride.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has sold over 500,000 of the current S-class world wide, so it isn’t such a small volume.

XT6 should have been an Omega platform crossover, I agree with you there and probably they could have made 2 crossovers on Omega to keep the platform viable.

Yeah, just skip over the fact that more than half of those S Class sales were fleet sales.

 

I do agree about the XT6 and Omega platform though. Should have happened but the GM bean counters and Barra have their heads still stuck up their own asses. Just baffling to let that happen with Cadillac. Just give me a Blackwing CT6 and call it a day.