PSA CEO says No Brands Let Go

[Drew Dowdell]

PSA CEO Carlos Tavares said on the BFM Business radio station none of the brands would be let go after the merger of PSA and FCA is complete.  He said it will be a challenge to manage all of the brands to cover the market, but that he sees "that all these brands, without exception, have one thing in common: they have a fabulous history."

While acknowledging that the combined companies would have a significant number of brands, it would still be lower than the number Volkswagen manages. 

The combined companies would field Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Fiat, Opel, Vauxhall, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Alfa-Romeo, Maserati, and Lancia. 

Both companies will aim for efficiencies of scale and are are willing to make concessions to the European Union in order to get the okay to merge. 

View full article

[USA-1]

Appeasing all the share holders. Changes have to be made and the guillotine has to drop eventually.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Appeasing all the share holders. Changes have to be made and the guillotine has to drop eventually.

Right, this is the truth, get the merge done, then start by looking at what needs to be cut to stop blood loss or kill off non-profit generating products. 

Dell Technologies like any other mega merging company did this with keeping everything till the merge was done, then reviewing everything and spinning the marketing story on how we can serve you better with this selection of products and that the few features missing are on the road map to be added to the new focused product line.

I say in 2 to 3 years after the merger is finished, we will see the Guillotine start happening to the product line.

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Appeasing all the share holders. Changes have to be made and the guillotine has to drop eventually.

Once the merger is complete, which brands get whacked first?  Place your bets now. . . . . .

[Drew Dowdell]

Lancia, Vauxhall pretty quickly.

VH could be replaced by opel directly. Lancia could be replaced with Fiat. 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Once the merger is complete, which brands get whacked first?  Place your bets now. . . . . .

Fiat, Alfa, Chrysler hacked in U.S. to start, too little too late for the Pentastar. Predict Dodge gets saved using Giorgio plat., still have some pretty faithful Chally followers and officers of the law for the Charger.  

[smk4565]

He might not kill any brands now but “history” isn’t a reason to keep a brand it it doesn’t sell or turn profit.  They are going to have to cut a few,  Jeep and Ram alone are worth more than FCA so Fiat/DodgeChrysler/Alfa are worth negative money.  

I think what happens is Peugeot comes to the USA, Fiat leaves USA.  And basically they come up with 1 product line that has an Opel badge in Germany, a Dodge badge in the USA, a  Vauxhall badge in the UK, etc.  

[balthazar]

peugeot is dead before hitting the ports here, just as fiat was.
Alfa can't be making a profit, no WAY it is in the U.S., so an alfa platform under a Dodge makes no sense either financially or from the standpoint of appealing to Dodge buyers.

No; fiat will see a casket, Lancia is already decomposing, peugeot is a Euro brand and needs to stay there.
These OEM heads need to learn & understand how local markets work; and how most are already oversaturated with brands.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think Peugeot has a much better chance at success than Fiat ever did. They make conventional cars, not just micro niche cars.

[USA-1]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

I think Peugeot has a much better chance at success than Fiat ever did. They make conventional cars, not just micro niche cars.

Saw a Fiat 500L driving today. Has to be one of the ugliest cars on the road right now! The NHTSA crash test is horrible too. Couldn't pay me to drive one.

[smk4565]

PSA figured out how to make money on small cars, mid-size sedans and small crossovers.  The stuff most people lose money on, so I think given the combined pool of R&D budget and overhead cost savings, they will be able to keep a lot of brands profitable.  Some of these brands they don't need, I think a survival of the fittest may come into play.

[oldshurst442]

I understand that PSA makes money on small cars. I also LOVED that @smk4565  pointed that out to us.  But small cars sell in Europe. Small cars dont sell too well in North America.  

I said it before and Ill say it again,  for most North Americans, French cars means nothing to them.  Peugeot or Citroen dont have a chance in North America.  But what may end up happening, what SHOULD be happening is Chrysler  could use those platforms and French panache so Chrysler could sell cars here. And/or Dodge. 

SMK has another thing right. Survival of the fittest is absolutely correct. Balthy is correct too.  Fiat and Lancia WILL die. Here and in Europe.  Maybe Fiat survives in Europe. Alfa Romeo does not though.  It aint selling here. It aint selling in Europe. Alfa is gone. 

Chrysler and Dodge.  It will come down to marketing and having the right products to sell with that marketing...

Muscle cars. Is that a dying breed?  Many say that Dodge cannot keep these up...  Who knows?  I say muscle cars will NEVER die. There is still a helluva lot of North Americans that love their muscle cars. And Dodge seems to KNOW how the build them and sell them.  I say Dodge stays BY building muscle cars.   As long as Dodge stays true to itself, Dodge is good! 

Chrysler is a toughie.  What does Chrysler do to have a loyal clientele that is different from all the other ho-hum brands out there in North America?   Chevrolet is one of those ho-hum brands at the moment. So is Buick. Toyota. Nissan. Acura. Hell, even BMW...  Chrysler does have a chance to survive here as the North American car market is BORING. Chrysler ALWAYS seems to give us products that move us emotionally.  THAT is what they need again.   And the French could compliment Auburn Hills together to give us that certain Je ne sais quoi that the North American car market so desperately needs right about now...  And like I said, that would NOT be for Peugeot or Citroen, but for Chrysler. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

If PSA can make money on small cars, they can easily make money on larger cars/SUVs or luxury cars.  

Everyone wants to dump on Alfa Romeo, and their sales do suck but they and Maserati are the only 2 luxury brands out of this mess of brands they have.  Luxury brands are where money is at, so they have to make one of them work.   They have DS but that isn't that high and and the sales are tanking on that brand.

[USA-1]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I understand that PSA makes money on small cars. I also LOVED that @smk4565  pointed that out to us.  But small cars sell in Europe. Small cars dont sell too well in North America.  

I said it before and Ill say it again,  for most North Americans, French cars means nothing to them.  Peugeot or Citroen dont have a chance.  But what may end up happening, what SHOULD be happening is Chrysler and could use those platforms so Chrysler could sell cars here. And/or Dodge. 

SMK has another thing right. Survival of the fittest is absolutely correct. Balthy is correct too.  Fiat and Lancia WILL die. Here and in Europe.  Maybe Fiat survives in Europe. Alfa Romeo does not though.  It aint selling here. It aint selling in Europe. Alfa is gone. 

Chrysler and Dodge.  It will come down to marketing and having the right products to sell with that marketing...

Muscle cars. Is that a dying breed?  Many say that Dodge cannot keep these up...  Who knows?  I say muscle cars will NEVER die. There is still a helluva lot of North Americans that love their muscle cars. And Dodge seems to KNOW how the build them and sell them.  I say Dodge stays BY building muscle cars.   As long as Dodge stays true to itself, Dodge is good! 

Chrysler is a toughie.  What does Chrysler do to have a loyal clientele that is different from all the other ho-hum brands out there in North America?   Chevrolet is one of those ho-hum brands at the moment. So is Buick. Toyota. Nissan. Acura. Hell, even BMW...  Chrysler does have a chance to survive here as the North American car market is BORING. Chrysler ALWAYS seems to give us products that move us emotionally.  THAT is what they need again.   

Yeah that new model of an iconic Chevrolet in your signature is pretty ho-hum LMAO!

Chrysler is too little too late like I mentioned before. What do they manufacture that moves us emotionally? For some the 300 tugs on the heart, but for many it does nothing for us and it doesn't sell well enough to stay around.

There are people who don't like Chevrolet that love the Corvette which has a faithful following and the Camaro has a pretty faithful muscle car following as well, 2019 sales don't have anything to do with that like some may think. Silverado sales will rebound nipping on the F Series arse again with a full ramp up in production for 2020 with more trims and powertrain configurations now available and more plant space for production now that the K2XX is phasing out. 

Same with Dodge it has a faithful muscle car following and should be able to last for a while longer with Challenger and Charger. All the other brands you mentioned are pretty stale and boring except for a couple BMW's like the new Z4 and the M3 that's still a pretty solid offering.

I say H3LL no to the smaller French cars Peugeot, Citroen and Lancia here in the U.S., like you said Fiat and Alfa didn't sell and neither will they.  

[USA-1]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

If PSA can make money on small cars, they can easily make money on larger cars/SUVs or luxury cars.  

Everyone wants to dump on Alfa Romeo, and their sales do suck but they and Maserati are the only 2 luxury brands out of this mess of brands they have.  Luxury brands are where money is at, so they have to make one of them work.   They have DS but that isn't that high and and the sales are tanking on that brand.

Just saw a new Alfa commercial with the Giulia ripping around with the 4C and the Stelvio. Giulia is a pretty awesome looking car and if the Quadrifoglio performance is awesome too. They don't market the car well at all, I think it's the first new commercial I've seen since the Giulia launched years ago.   

[riviera74]

If Chrysler were to die, what happens to the Pacifica?  300/Charger twins could easily survive, same with Jeep and RAM.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If PSA can make money on small cars, they can easily make money on larger cars/SUVs or luxury cars.  

Everyone wants to dump on Alfa Romeo, and their sales do suck but they and Maserati are the only 2 luxury brands out of this mess of brands they have.  Luxury brands are where money is at, so they have to make one of them work.   They have DS but that isn't that high and and the sales are tanking on that brand.

WRONG, Luxury is NOT where money is at, that is proven by the success of Jeep and Ram. No luxury line of auto's but a line of auto's that transcends from entry to luxury. Complete product. PSA can and should kill those two brands and make better luxury auto's in other name plates.

[balthazar]

If 'luxury is not where it's at', then a few soon-to-launch luxury brands with no entry models are in real trouble.

[USA-1]

Ok, after reading this C&D write-up about the Giulia QF I'm over it. Bad bearings in rear diff. at 10k mi. while at the dealer for 31 DAYS then multiple electronic bugs with gauge cluster lighting up like a Christmas tree that go away once at the dealer? Other than the sweet sounding TT engine it's a dud. Too bad Alfa...

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-reliability-update/

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by USA-1

[daves87rs]

BULLS**T.

Half of those brands will be gone in a few years.....heck, FCA could barely run itself.....AND add a bunch or odd brands?

Ummm...no.

[G. David Felt]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

If 'luxury is not where it's at', then a few soon-to-launch luxury brands with no entry models are in real trouble.

Some are and have proven that point by building a luxury auto the public wants, but Maseratti and Alfa is NOT what the public wants and has not been selling to be profitable proving that Luxury is not where the money is for everyone as by looking at Jeep and Ram.

[regfootball]

17 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I understand that PSA makes money on small cars. I also LOVED that @smk4565  pointed that out to us.  But small cars sell in Europe. Small cars dont sell too well in North America.  

I said it before and Ill say it again,  for most North Americans, French cars means nothing to them.  Peugeot or Citroen dont have a chance in North America.  But what may end up happening, what SHOULD be happening is Chrysler  could use those platforms and French panache so Chrysler could sell cars here. And/or Dodge. 

SMK has another thing right. Survival of the fittest is absolutely correct. Balthy is correct too.  Fiat and Lancia WILL die. Here and in Europe.  Maybe Fiat survives in Europe. Alfa Romeo does not though.  It aint selling here. It aint selling in Europe. Alfa is gone. 

Chrysler and Dodge.  It will come down to marketing and having the right products to sell with that marketing...

Muscle cars. Is that a dying breed?  Many say that Dodge cannot keep these up...  Who knows?  I say muscle cars will NEVER die. There is still a helluva lot of North Americans that love their muscle cars. And Dodge seems to KNOW how the build them and sell them.  I say Dodge stays BY building muscle cars.   As long as Dodge stays true to itself, Dodge is good! 

Chrysler is a toughie.  What does Chrysler do to have a loyal clientele that is different from all the other ho-hum brands out there in North America?   Chevrolet is one of those ho-hum brands at the moment. So is Buick. Toyota. Nissan. Acura. Hell, even BMW...  Chrysler does have a chance to survive here as the North American car market is BORING. Chrysler ALWAYS seems to give us products that move us emotionally.  THAT is what they need again.   And the French could compliment Auburn Hills together to give us that certain Je ne sais quoi that the North American car market so desperately needs right about now...  And like I said, that would NOT be for Peugeot or Citroen, but for Chrysler. 

If Chrysler was allowed to have a couple crossovers in the same showroom as Jeep they would survive just fine.  Not everyone wants the Jeep look.  A three row that is legit competition to say the Traverse / Enclave would sell well enough.  And a two row to compete with the Edge and such.  And you still have the minivan which if they keep on the leading edge of that market would be enough for Chrysler.  A 300 replacement wouldn't sell a ton but to be honest there is still possibly a market for that.

16 hours ago, riviera74 said:

If Chrysler were to die, what happens to the Pacifica?  300/Charger twins could easily survive, same with Jeep and RAM.

probably Ram 

[oldshurst442]

18 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Yeah that new model of an iconic Chevrolet in your signature is pretty ho-hum LMAO!

Chrysler is too little too late like I mentioned before. What do they manufacture that moves us emotionally? For some the 300 tugs on the heart, but for many it does nothing for us and it doesn't sell well enough to stay around.

There are people who don't like Chevrolet that love the Corvette which has a faithful following and the Camaro has a pretty faithful muscle car following as well, 2019 sales don't have anything to do with that like some may think. Silverado sales will rebound nipping on the F Series arse again with a full ramp up in production for 2020 with more trims and powertrain configurations now available and more plant space for production now that the K2XX is phasing out. 

Same with Dodge it has a faithful muscle car following and should be able to last for a while longer with Challenger and Charger. All the other brands you mentioned are pretty stale and boring except for a couple BMW's like the new Z4 and the M3 that's still a pretty solid offering.

I say H3LL no to the smaller French cars Peugeot, Citroen and Lancia here in the U.S., like you said Fiat and Alfa didn't sell and neither will they.  

I did say that Chevrolet is ho-hum at the moment.

Corvette not with standing.  There are no products at Chevy that instill excitement when people go visit the  Chevy store to look at the Corvette, any Corvette, C7 or C8 and then leave with a purchase because Corvette is the halo car....

All the CUVs are meh at Chevy with the exemption of the Blazer. And in this here forum, the Blazer was ill received....

Too expensive, wrong wheel drive...(maybe some folk in this forum even complained about its interior...) 

I for one actually like the Blazer. (I HATE CUVs)  For a CUV, its got excitement going on...for me.  

Where is Chevy's answer to the Raptor?  Chevy also needs an SUV version of a Raptor.  Where is the Avalanche if Chevy does not want to do a full blown SUV...   

Because an Equinox and a Trax are just about as dull as they get. They are as interesting as Toyota products...

The Tahoe. Its a big ride. I guess that makes it cool. But it too has become such a drab ride.  Too many soccer moms have bought it in the past and continue to buy it that for me at least, it has lost that "je ne sais quoi" about it.

I was always a car guy, but back in the day, I saw plenty of K5s like this one

and that ride ALWAYS made me turn my head...

Now I see a Tahoe, and its almost like in this photo

Two millennial do-gooders, that want to have the look of ruggedness, but are afraid to get their hands dirty. They wear their off-roading boots, but are afraid to step in a puddle...   They load up their dogs, and take them to the dog park, instead of taking them up north to some sort of hiking trail in the Laurentians. 

 

To boot, too cheap to buy the GMC Denali or Escalade...    And yes I see that.  Gasoline prices are sky high in Quebec so Tahoes are bought buy well off people.   I also see that with the Escalade.  Prissy soccer moms with French Manicured nails with faux fur, because real fur is passé, but at least with the Escalade, its a Cadillac. Cadillac and elitism go hand in hand. 

This Tahoe down below...  *YAWN!!!*

At least the one above is red... 

 

The Camaro Im afraid is gonna die.  No news on a new gen.  Unless GM is playing coy and the new generation will be all electric? 

That is why I said Chevy is ho-hum.  There was never a Cruze Z-24 or Cruze SS, but it dont matter now, Cruze is dead.  Impala. Dead.  

Malibu?  Unfortunately, it has a personality that bores people to death. Even the Camry git some aggressiveness going on lately. The Accord still offers a 6 cylinder.  The Fusion?  A 2.7 liter ecoboosted V6 with 325 HP and 380 ft.lbs of torque.  It aint an ST model, The Fusion Sport  is not an Audi S4 competitor, more like a regular V6 automobile, so the AWD on it is just a Joe Shmo affair, but 325 HP and 380 ft.lbs non the less.  

The Edge offers that powertrain too...   The Blazer does not.

The Taurus still has an SHO.  The Impala...no.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by oldshurst442

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

I did say that Chevrolet is ho-hum at the moment.

Corvette not with standing.  There are no products at Chevy that instill excitement when people go visit the  Chevy store to look at the Corvette, any Corvette, C7 or C8 and then leave with a purchase because Corvette is the halo car....

All the CUVs are meh at Chevy with the exemption of the Blazer. And in this here forum, the Blazer was ill received....

Too expensive, wrong wheel drive...(maybe some folk in this forum even complained about its interior...) 

I for one actually like the Blazer. (I HATE CUVs)  For a CUV, its got excitement going on...for me.  

Where is Chevy's answer to the Raptor?  Chevy also needs an SUV version of a Raptor.  Where is the Avalanche if Chevy does not want to do a full blown SUV...   

Because an Equinox and a Trax are just about as dull as they get. They are as interesting as Toyota products...

The Tahoe. Its a big ride. I guess that makes it cool. But it too has become such a drab ride.  Too many soccer moms have bought it in the past and continue to buy it that for me at least, it has lost that "je ne sais quoi" about it.

I was always a car guy, but back in the day, I saw plenty of K5s like this one

and that ride ALWAYS made me turn my head...

Now I see a Tahoe, and its almost like in this photo

Two millennial do-gooders, that want to have the look of ruggedness, but are afraid to get their hands dirty. They wear their off-roading boots, but are afraid to step in a puddle...   They load up their dogs, and take them to the dog park, instead of taking them up north to some sort of hiking trail in the Laurentians. 

 

To boot, too cheap to buy the GMC Denali or Escalade...    And yes I see that.  Gasoline prices are sky high in Quebec so Tahoes are bought buy well off people.   I also see that with the Escalade.  Prissy soccer moms with French Manicured nails with faux fur, because real fur is passé, but at least with the Escalade, its a Cadillac. Cadillac and elitism go hand in hand. 

This Tahoe down below...  *YAWN!!!*

At least the one above is red... 

 

The Camaro Im afraid is gonna die.  No news on a new gen.  Unless GM is playing coy and the new generation will be all electric? 

That is why I said Chevy is ho-hum.  There was never a Cruze Z-24 or Cruze SS, but it dont matter now, Cruze is dead.  Impala. Dead.  

Malibu?  Unfortunately, it has a personality that bores people to death. Even the Camry git some aggressiveness going on lately. The Accord still offers a 6 cylinder.  The Fusion?  A 2.7 liter ecoboosted V6 with 325 HP and 380 ft.lbs of torque.  It aint an ST model, The Fusion Sport  is not an Audi S4 competitor, more like a regular V6 automobile, so the AWD on it is just a Joe Shmo affair, but 325 HP and 380 ft.lbs non the less.  

The Edge offers that powertrain too...   The Blazer does not.

The Taurus still has an SHO.  The Impala...no.

 

 

 

You like to write the novels don't ya?! ?

I have to say many Americans disagree on cars and trucks with y'all Canadians up North. Many would also disagree that the C7 is ho-hum, in any trim, it sold very well until word of the launch of the ME C8 came out so people waited for it. Camaro will soldier on just fine. There was a Cruze RS. Gas is relatively cheap here, but sedans don't sell well, so why dump a bunch of money into a segment that nobody wants? Malibu isn't designed to be a performance car, having no V6 is a bummer because I4's are lame, but it's most likely because the past Admins. CAFE regs that GM had to try to hit by offering 4 bangers so we could still have V8 Camaro's, Corvettes and Silverado's. Current Blazer RS AWD has the avail. 308 hp SAE V6 and sportier distinct trim (SAE certified are always rated slightly lower than actual output) all GM powerplants are SAE certified something Ford can't claim who is known to fluff their numbers. Current Tahoe RST sport model comes with the 6.2L 420 hp and distinctive trim and whether you think they are ho-hum or not, are the best selling fullsize SUV in America and the Suburban is the longest running nameplate in history of the automobile so seems like GM has that plenty figured out. Escalade has a sufficient amount of ponies now with the 6.2L and a V model is coming with the new model for 2021. 

Where's the Raptor V8? Is what you should be saying that TT V6 is a joke and sounds horrible, exhaust sounds like a coffee can ricer EVERYBODY I talked to about it says that whether a Ford guy or not. Taurus is already dead Fusion is set to die off this year or next.

Camry (Toyota's in general) with it's spindle grille is god awful has a slug of a unreliable V6 and sales are waning.

Honda's although reliable don't have a V8 so in turn don't sell a ton of V8's like GM does to have to lower their average CAFE with a I4 car so their V6 is their V8.

 

On another note I used to own a 1986 Chevy square body 3/4 ton long bed P/U 350 with Turbo 400 trans., that thing was a solid beast and took a beating, it was straight and rot free in 2002 when I let it go, I should have kept it. I've always liked and wanted a K5, I'll have one someday.

Edited November 9, 2019 by USA-1

[oldshurst442]

On 11/9/2019 at 6:28 PM, USA-1 said:

You like to write the novels don't ya?! ?

Yeah Yeah Yeah!!!

 

I also like to link youtube vids and /or GIFs

I never said the C7 is ho-hum.  However...all other Chevy products are on the same level as Toyota...YIKES!!!

Now, the way you are defending Chevy, I KNOW you know it to be true.

Its OK...I feel your pain.

 

[USA-1]

30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Now, the way you are defending Chevy, I KNOW you know it to be true.

 

Not defending just stating facts that you missed or weren't aware of.

Apparently you missed the part where I stated that Honda's are reliable?

If I was just defending Chevy or GM biased why would I talk about Honda's like that or state that I like other cars like Alfa Giulia's, Aston's or Ferrari's?

Rattle on ya old Canuck! ?

Edited November 11, 2019 by USA-1

[ocnblu]

He's not old.  BUT... someone should put something in his mouth.  ?  KIDDING, don't trigger on me!

I don't care about the Euro brands in the new conglomerate, although I am not anti-Peugeot, per se.  They used to have a decent diesel car back in the day here in America.

 

Since my blood is red, I want to see Jeep, Ram, Chrysler and Dodge continue on and on and on.  If Dodge/Ram had a smaller truck, I would have looked at it intensely before making a recent decision.

Edited November 11, 2019 by ocnblu

[oldshurst442]

Im not anti-French cars per se either.

If I lived in Europe (Greece), Id probably consider a French car.  But most probably a Suzuki or a Honda product (as a Canadian moving to Greece to live). But if I was born in Greece and lived there all my life, Id probably be like most Greeks and buy German....

Im excited for this merger,  only because Im fed up of having the Germans phoque over Chryco and now the Italians.

Im excited to maybe see the French  might do justice to Chrysler and Dodge. We will see I guess.  I had high hopes for the Fiat group, especially when Sergio gave the greenlight to start up the Viper program after it was canceled due to the bankruptcy but it was all for nothing.

I dont mean the Viper going away again. I understand that monies were needed elsewhere other than a very niche and boutique, hand made sports car.  But I didn't expect for all the monies to go to dead man walking brands either only to skin Chrysler alive and barely give Dodge anything.  They stripped Dodge of the Ram too.  Good move?  Well it did not hurt Ram sales at all. And it didnt hurt Dodge either for the short term. Maybe its because we all know that even if Ram is its own brand, its still Dodge...

I dont think PSA is hurting as much as Fiat was. Maybe that is a good thing for Chryco going forward.

But like DeLorenzo says. Its a GIANT "we will see".  

Edited November 11, 2019 by oldshurst442

[USA-1]

21 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

He's not old.  BUT... someone should put something in his mouth.  ?  KIDDING, don't trigger on me!

I don't care about the Euro brands in the new conglomerate, although I am not anti-Peugeot, per se.  They used to have a decent diesel car back in the day here in America.

 

Since my blood is red, I want to see Jeep, Ram, Chrysler and Dodge continue on and on and on.  If Dodge/Ram had a smaller truck, I would have looked at it intensely before making a recent decision.

He's older than me by 3 years so I had to jab him with that! ?

I remember those stodgy Peugeot diesels with that saggy back end and a constant black cloud behind them! Ha! Pretty ugly car, but the diesel never stopped running.  

Ram needs a baby Ram with proper dimensions. The Jeep Gladiator with the funky look of the bed hanging way too far past the back axle and the $50k+ price tag just isn't gonna cut it.

[ocnblu]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Ram needs a baby Ram with proper dimensions. The Jeep Gladiator with the funky look of the bed hanging way too far past the back axle and the $50k+ price tag just isn't gonna cut it.

plus one

[oldshurst442]

8 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

plus one

Ill give  the plus one. 

PS:  Practically the ONLY SUV I ever want to own is the original SUV. The Wrangler.  But I must say, the Wrangler pick-up absolutely does NOTHING for me.

Maybe you say to me that its because I do not like pick-up trucks either to which Ill tell you nah, that is not it.  The Wrangler pick-up is just....too funky for me. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

It is way too expensive for what you get... the bed is too small to be useful, which makes it pointless as a truck.

[oldshurst442]

A pick-up should have a usable bed.  Maybe Jeep should have made it something like an Avalanche? Or does GM still have a trademark on that mechanism?   

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

A pick-up should have a usable bed.  Maybe Jeep should have made it something like an Avalanche? Or does GM still have a trademark on that mechanism?   

The mid gate that the Avalanche (and the Escalade EXT) had was a really good idea.  I also thought that QuadraSteer on the GMC Sierra was a great idea too about ten years ago.  Too bad both ideas died due to lack of interest and sales.

[ocnblu]

7 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The mid gate that the Avalanche (and the Escalade EXT) had was a really good idea.  I also thought that QuadraSteer on the GMC Sierra was a great idea too about ten years ago.  Too bad both ideas died due to lack of interest and sales.

GM has been a victim of its own innovative ideas for decades.  A lot of times, when they put something out there that seems like a good idea (to GM, in its insular world) at the time, it falls flat.  This next big push on the horizon will end with the same result.

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The mid gate that the Avalanche (and the Escalade EXT) had was a really good idea.  I also thought that QuadraSteer on the GMC Sierra was a great idea too about ten years ago.  Too bad both ideas died due to lack of interest and sales.

Great technology, but sadly GM like always failed to market it and show the benefits that would justify the cost. Anyone who has driven one of the GMC trucks with Quadra steer knows how easy it is to park those awesome rides.

Management stupidity for killing off the Avalanche / Escalade EXT. ?

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Great technology, but sadly GM like always failed to market it and show the benefits that would justify the cost. Anyone who has driven one of the GMC trucks with Quadra steer knows how easy it is to park those awesome rides.

Management stupidity for killing off the Avalanche / Escalade EXT. ?

It should be noted that Honda had four wheel steering years before GM. (1987 Prelude which I got to drive right after I got my license in '89 and it was a fun little ride)

 

And I agree whole heartedly with the last part. Loved the last gen. Avalanche. Sadly, sales of them probably didn't justify the need to continue producing them.

Edited November 11, 2019 by surreal1272

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Great technology, but sadly GM like always failed to market it and show the benefits that would justify the cost. Anyone who has driven one of the GMC trucks with Quadra steer knows how easy it is to park those awesome rides.

Management stupidity for killing off the Avalanche / Escalade EXT. ?

Quadrasteer on the Sierra was awesome, a buddy of mine had one. It was a pretty cool feeling the way the back-end of the truck kind of had a sliding around effect behind you instead of just trailing and the smaller turning radius made it drive like a midsize truck. It was a pretty expensive option and like you stated was never marketed correctly. I wonder how many are actually out there, I still see them with the slightly bulged rear fenders every once in a while. 

Same thing with the Volt/ELR. They could have had great marketing on them, but never did. Voltec should have started with the expensive but not so expensive ELR then came out with the less expensive 4 door cousin, the Volt a few years later, but the bean counters thought different and were wrong again. The ELR had great fit and finish and was beautiful inside and out, the interior with leather wrapped everything, real wood and real carbon fiber was awesome and blew away the Model S in that regard. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the Voltec platform just to kill it 8 years later. I'm sure a version of it will be back at some point, but who knows. Bean counters at GM be damned! 

Edited November 11, 2019 by USA-1

[surreal1272]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

GM has been a victim of its own innovative ideas for decades.  A lot of times, when they put something out there that seems like a good idea (to GM, in its insular world) at the time, it falls flat.  This next big push on the horizon will end with the same result.

And which "big push" is that? Are they trying to push diesels again??

2 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Quadrasteer on the Sierra was awesome, a buddy of mine had one. It was a pretty cool feeling the way the back-end of the truck kind of had a sliding around effect behind you instead of just trailing and the smaller turning radius made it drive like a midsize truck. It was a pretty expensive option and like you stated was never marketed correctly. I wonder how many are actually out there, I still see them with the slightly bulged rear fenders every once in a while. 

Same thing with the Volt/ELR. They could have had great marketing on them, but never did. Voltec should have started with the expensive ELR then came out with the less expensive 4 door cousin, the Volt a few years later, but the bean counters thought different and were wrong again. The ELR had great fit and finish and was beautiful inside and out, the interior with leather wrapped everything, real wood and real carbon fiber was awesome and blew away the Model S in that regard. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the Voltec platform just to kill it 8 years later. I'm sure a version of it will be back at some point, but who knows. Bean counters at GM be damned! 

The ELR was sharp looking ride but it was priced way too high and at a time when people stopped buying two door cars. Bad timing and piss poor pricing.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

It should be noted that Honda had four wheel steering years before GM. (1987 Prelude which I got to drive right after I got my license in '89 and it was a fun little ride)

 

And I agree whole heartedly with the last part. Loved the last gen. Avalanche. Sadly, sales of them probably didn't justify the need to continue producing them.

Yes Honda had it on a tiny little car. GM did it on a Full size truck that could HAUL and the quadrasteer was awesome for trailering. It made it so much easier to backup and turn around when you had a trailer, the longer the easier it became.

I question the sales comment as the last year they still sold very well yet not in the large numbers of the rest of the trucks. I think a business case could still have been made to make a Chevy and Cadillac version of a truck like this.

@USA-1 I agree with you that the ELR was what GM should have done first at Cadillac but at around a $55,000 to $60,000 price and then roll out the VOLT at Chevrolet.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Avalanche sales tanked like that because they got so expensive.  Still, a GMC Avalanche offered only in SLT and Denali trims would would. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Yes Honda had it on a tiny little car. GM did it on a Full size truck that could HAUL and the quadrasteer was awesome for trailering. It made it so much easier to backup and turn around when you had a trailer, the longer the easier it became.

I question the sales comment as the last year they still sold very well yet not in the large numbers of the rest of the trucks. I think a business case could still have been made to make a Chevy and Cadillac version of a truck like this.

@USA-1 I agree with you that the ELR was what GM should have done first at Cadillac but at around a $55,000 to $60,000 price and then roll out the VOLT at Chevrolet.

Look at the first few years versus the last few years. Again, I’m not disagreeing with the notion that they could have kept selling them but when you look at that sales history you posted, it’s easy to see why the bean counters said “no”. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Avalanche sales tanked like that because they got so expensive.  Still, a GMC Avalanche offered only in SLT and Denali trims would would. 

Tahoe’s and Silverados got more expansive too but they keep selling. Still a shame they gave it the ax though. 

[Drew Dowdell]

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Look at the first few years versus the last few years. Again, I’m not disagreeing with the notion that they could have kept selling them but when you look at that sales history you posted, it’s easy to see why the bean counters said “no”. 

Tahoe’s and Silverados got more expansive too but they keep selling. Still a shame they gave it the ax though. 

Everything went up of course...but Avalanche, suburban, and Tahoe jumped about $10k in a single model year change.