Chrysler News: FCA and PSA are in Merger Talks

[balthazar]

34 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Rental car companies use invalid size categorizations. 

SO does the EPA.

[Robert Hall]

16 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Our Summers make you a real man ??? ? It's a dry heat just turn the AC up for July and Aug. the only brutal months really. Pretty nice today it was 70 today 50 for low. Fall is awesome here. Really hard to beat AZ weather 9 - 10 mos. out of the year, you know that.   

So. Cal for an escape from the heat? There are times they are just as hot as The Valley especially this last Summer. I travel there often for work.

I lived in Phoenix for 9 years....   May through September was usually horrible..usually was around 118 or so on my birthday (June 28th).   There were maybe 5 months a year it was really nice, but usually still too warm at Thanksgving...I got tired of the constant sun and haze, lack of 4 distinct seasons.   And got tired of $500/month electric bills in the summer.  I do miss my pool, though.   Did enjoy going up to Prescott, Sedona, the drive through Jerome and Oak Creek Canyon to Flagstaff...

As far as So Cal, mostly went to the beach towns.  Mostly San Diego,  Del Mar, Dana Point,  Huntington Beach, Santa Monica....Long Beach several times for the Indy Car race.    Though at Fontana for the Indy Car races in Sept-Oct a couple times it was hotter than Phoenix.  Occasionally went up north to Sonoma and Laguna Seca for motorsports events.   

Edited October 31, 2019 by Robert Hall

[Robert Hall]

Anyway, back on track, it will be interesting to see where the PSA-FCA thing goes...wonder if it will get through regulatory hurdles in the several countries involved.  

[Drew Dowdell]

The French government is apparently all for it. 

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The French government is apparently all for it. 

Wasn't it the French government that put the kibosh on the FCA-Renault deal?  It was under different terms, IIRC..

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

Wasn't it the French government that put the kibosh on the FCA-Renault deal?  It was under different terms, IIRC..

Combination of the French government and Nissan. 

[USA-1]

28 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I lived in Phoenix for 9 years....   May through September was usually horrible..usually was around 118 or so on my birthday (June 28th).   There were maybe 5 months a year it was really nice, but usually still too warm at Thanksgving...I got tired of the constant sun and haze, lack of 4 distinct seasons.   And got tired of $500/month electric bills in the summer.  I do miss my pool, though.   Did enjoy going up to Prescott, Sedona, the drive through Jerome and Oak Creek Canyon to Flagstaff...

As far as So Cal, mostly went to the beach towns.  Mostly San Diego,  Del Mar, Dana Point,  Huntington Beach, Santa Monica....Long Beach several times for the Indy Car race.    Though at Fontana for the Indy Car races in Sept-Oct a couple times it was hotter than Phoenix.  Occasionally went up north to Sonoma and Laguna Seca for motorsports events.   

So you moved from the beautiful desert SW to boring Ohio? That had to be a shock to your system ??

Yes, June gets a bit toasty before the Monsoon settles in which cools it down and the humidity from it burns off pretty quickly as well. I think July and August are the worst and certain days of June get hot from about mid month through the end of August or mid September so maybe 3 months total of higher but low humidity heat. I like it 80-85 degrees even 90 is nice because of the low humidity. Growing up in the PNW in Oregon I had plenty of clouds and rain for a lifetime so I love the sun, been here 8 years now. Last Oct. was upper 90's until today (Halloween), but this year it's been cooler than normal at 70-80 for a high, supposed to be 76 today so it depends on the year or if an Indian Summer or not.

12:45pm 69 degrees and 25% hum. on my weather station going on a mountain bike trail ride here shortly. It's hard to beat SW Fall weather anywhere in the nation which is why all the Snow Birds are back...ugh lol...Oregon has already been below freezing because of the Arctic Blast hitting the upper section of the country. I'm good right where I am thank you!

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Combination of the French government and Nissan. 

Yep, I read that Nissan was definitely against what Renault wanted with the last merger attempt. That's been a nasty marriage. 

[Robert Hall]

Well, I'm from Ohio originally..NE Ohio is very green w/ rolling hills, rivers and lakes..lots of fall colors...and Lake Erie w/ islands.  I love it.   I lived in Colorado for 12 years before Arizona, did like it there.   I don't miss AZ at all, it just didn't suit me. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

8 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Well, I'm from Ohio originally..NE Ohio is very green w/ rolling hills, rivers and lakes..lots of fall colors...and Lake Erie w/ islands.  I love it.   I lived in Colorado for 12 years before Arizona, did like it there.   I don't miss AZ at all, it just didn't suit me. 

Nice. To each his own!

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Well, I'm from Ohio originally..NE Ohio is very green w/ rolling hills, rivers and lakes..lots of fall colors...and Lake Erie w/ islands.  I love it.   I lived in Colorado for 12 years before Arizona, did like it there.   I don't miss AZ at all, it just didn't suit me. 

 

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

Nice. To each his own!

Ya guys can keep the rolling hills and the Hell on earth heat, I will stay put in the PNW with the drizzle, cool temps and 4 distinct seasons. ? 

[Robert Hall]

13 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

Ya guys can keep the rolling hills and the Hell on earth heat, I will stay put in the PNW with the drizzle, cool temps and 4 distinct seasons. ? 

I do like the PNW... I wouldn't mind living there at some point.  Though I'm thinking in a few years I may move to the Boston area (my favorite East Coast city, and close to mountains, beaches and islands).  

[USA-1]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

Ya guys can keep the rolling hills and the Hell on earth heat, I will stay put in the PNW with the drizzle, cool temps and 4 distinct seasons. ? 

Better bundle up for the freezing Pacific North"Wet" Fall and Winter weather. ?

Drizzle?! Is that what you guys call steady rain now just to feel better about it? ?

[Robert Hall]

Been very windy and rainy here today, and now getting flurries...woo hoo!

[USA-1]

41 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Been very windy and rainy here today, and now getting flurries...woo hoo!

BRRR!! ?

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Better bundle up for the freezing Pacific North"Wet" Fall and Winter weather. ?

Drizzle?! Is that what you guys call steady rain now just to feel better about it? ?

Yes, Yes we do as Rain is a solid wet drop, versus Seattle has more Drizzle than rain unless you live around the Hoh Rain Forest on the coast, there you get heavy rain.

[USA-1]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Yes, Yes we do as Rain is a solid wet drop, versus Seattle has more Drizzle than rain unless you live around the Hoh Rain Forest on the coast, there you get heavy rain.

Oh I know what Several solid wet drops of rain are, I grew up in the PNW in rural Oregon in the Willamette Valley. The Oregon Coast has drizzle inland in the Valley it's solid drops of rain. I also worked for two different companies based out of Seattle is why I was jerking your chain ?

Edited November 1, 2019 by USA-1

[oldshurst442]

The French made the Italians scrap the mid-engined Alfa Romeo 8C in order for this merger to happen is how I understand this whole thing.

Knowing that the French always loved the Dodge Viper, here is hoping that the Americans and the French  will come to together again like with the |Revolutionary wars and give us a mid-engined Dodge Viper instead!   

[oldshurst442]

On 10/30/2019 at 5:05 PM, balthazar said:

The idea that a platform is too old after 5 or 7 or even 10 years, just because of that, seems ridiculous to me. 

I used to think this way too. 

I guess reading too many car magazines  back in the day made me adapt to their idiotic biases.  

I know now why they critically devalued an older model versus a newer model in their head to head comparisons...all because of fake automotive journalistic bias to sell more magazines... to idiots like me.

I never understood why a certain model that was very good 2 years prior was now criticized  and more importantly,  FROWNED upon just because a new competitor had a new model out.   But these magazines sure had me hook, line and sinker. 

And that kind of idiocy arose in the car forums that I posted in later on in  life and I got to see more idiots, including myself, where a Mustang guy would diss a Camaro guy and vice versa and the come backs for each idiot was:

"yeah, but the new Mustang will come out next year..."

or

"Yeah, but the Camaro is already 2 years old...of course the Mustang beat it..."

Such lunacy...

Which brings me to this post here.

On 10/30/2019 at 5:16 PM, balthazar said:

 

We’re way past the need for completely new platforms for the same brand/ model.

Yes. Of course! 

I understand why companies spend billions to create new platforms every 6-8 years or so...to be on the cutting edge of technology to one-up the competition. 

But that too is lunacy.  Take the fullsized pick-up truck wars.  Every new gen platform and the Big 3 boast towing capacities and we are in a world where these pick-up trucks can practically haul shyte on  par with 18 wheelers.  Exaggeration of course.

OK...I guess that kind of competition is good for the consumer, but when does a regular Joe Blow need to haul shyte like an 18 wheeler on with his Chevy Silverado?  Keep in mind, I AM talking about a regular Joe Blow here....

And all that these brings to the car manufacturer is enormous amounts of R&D money that they do not necessarlity need to spend...

And the negative talk in car mags? 

Is a 2 generations ago Silverado THAT much of a loser vehicle as compared to a brand new 2020 F-150?

Because, of all the R&D money spent on each and every generation of the Silverado, I personally do not think that a 2 generations ago Silverado is that much behind a new generation Silverado, or Ram or F-150...

Corvette just proves it...

The C4 and the C5 and the C6 and the C7 are not really brand new new platforms from the generations before...

Improved upon...yes, but not brand new like the C8 is...

and THAT would be smart R&D money.

Toyoter too.

This is why Toyoter has a huge war chest of money...

 

PS:  Ive changed my mind set on this issue and returned to how I used to think.  Like you! 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by oldshurst442

[USA-1]

37 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I used to think this way too. 

I guess reading too many car magazines  back in the day made me adapt to their idiotic biases.  

I know now why they critically devalued an older model versus a newer model in their head to head comparisons...all because of fake automotive journalistic bias to sell more magazines... to idiots like me.

I never understood why a certain model that was very good 2 years prior was now criticized  and more importantly,  FROWNED upon just because a new competitor had a new model out.   But these magazines sure had me hook, line and sinker. 

And that kind of idiocy arose in the car forums that I posted in later on in  life and I got to see more idiots, including myself, where a Mustang guy would diss a Camaro guy and vice versa and the come backs for each idiot was:

"yeah, but the new Mustang will come out next year..."

or

"Yeah, but the Camaro is already 2 years old...of course the Mustang beat it..."

Such lunacy...

Which brings me to this post here.

Yes. Of course! 

I understand why companies spend billions to create new platforms every 6-8 years or so...to be on the cutting edge of technology to one-up the competition. 

But that too is lunacy.  Take the fullsized pick-up truck wars.  Every new gen platform and the Big 3 boast towing capacities and we are in a world where these pick-up trucks can practically haul shyte on  par with 18 wheelers.  Exaggeration of course.

OK...I guess that kind of competition is good for the consumer, but when does a regular Joe Blow need to haul shyte like an 18 wheeler on with his Chevy Silverado?  Keep in mind, I AM talking about a regular Joe Blow here....

And all that these brings to the car manufacturer is enormous amounts of R&D money that they do not necessarlity need to spend...

And the negative talk in car mags? 

Is a 2 generations ago Silverado THAT much of a loser vehicle as compared to a brand new 2020 F-150?

Because, of all the R&D money spent on each and every generation of the Silverado, I personally do not think that a 2 generations ago Silverado is that much behind a new generation Silverado, or Ram or F-150...

Corvette just proves it...

The C4 and the C5 and the C6 and the C7 are not really brand new new platforms from the generations before...

Improved upon...yes, but not brand new like the C8 is...

and THAT would be smart R&D money.

Toyoter too.

This is why Toyoter has a huge war chest of money...

 

PS:  Ive changed my mind set on this issue and returned to how I used to think.  Like you! 

 

 

I agree with you on fullsize pickup trucks and their ridiculous 2 or 4 year "refresh" now that are basically a new grille design or a change to the headlight tech and/or design. It's funny because it used to be 7-10 years before the domestics would change much of anything on their fullsize trucks until about the '14 or '15 MY, now the other guy has the "All New" truck and Corp. top brass saying "we can't have that" it's all a sales tactic obviously. I also agree that pretty soon these fullsize trucks are going to haul way more than they need to or more than the driver is even licensed for (CDL) and the turbo diesel power output is now 450-500hp and 850-1000 ft. lbs of torque and a max GVWR of 35K+ lbs. and again anything over 26,001 lbs. you need a CDL, so yep 18 wheeler territory in that respect ? 

Now with the Corvette you were a little off. From the C4 production that ran from 1984 - 1996 to the C5 that ran from 1997 - 2004 they were totally different platforms. The C5 with much improved stability and performance was a totally new car from the ground up, with maybe a couple of suspension components that were similar to the C4. It had a totally new "hydroformed" ladder style space frame and the transmission went from being bolted directly to the engine to the back axle in a very stout transaxle form, all connected with a "torque tube" which in the C5's case is a very strong forged aluminum tunnel that carries the driveshaft and attaches the front of the powertrain to the back. It was really nice to see the bell housing bulge in the driver and passenger footwell from the C4 go away with this new design. This all new design with the transmission in the back also gave the C5 Corvette a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. When the C5 came out the body had the lowest Cd (Coefficient of drag) at .29 Cd that was lower than Ferrari at the time. Speaking of powertrain this was also the first year of the all new GM LS motor with the LS1. With this new C5 chassis design being so good and so far ahead of it's time in the late 90's it lasted surprisingly long, longer than even GM engineers thought, I was told this by one at the C8 reveal I went to. With basically all new bodies for the 2005 C6 and 2014 C7 and some suspension updates and upgrades like MagnaRide until the 2020 C8 it was a pretty rare circumstance. Can you think of another modern car chassis that has lasted the test of time so well like the C5 - C7 Corvette have at 23 MY's? It shows how well thought out the design was compared to previous generations to last well into the future. 

"Toyoter" LMAO!

[oldshurst442]

"Toyoter" is not mine....its Balthy's.    I wish I could have thought of it....but its his! 

 

I appreciate your input about the Corvette. And I knew all that.  Now...I aint being condescending about you correcting me. I knew what I wrote was not accurate. And I do not mind you pointing it out that I was wrong.  I was exaggerating...to prove a point.

And what point is that?

46 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Can you think of another modern car chassis that has lasted the test of time so well like the C5 - C7 Corvette have at 23 MY's? It shows how well thought out the design was compared to previous generations to last well into the future. 

That point that you stated!!!

I should not have mentioned the C4...but even then, the C4 to the C7, the design and layout of the platform's have not changed. And that is what I wanted to convey. it just came out wrong.

But yeah!   I like that you and I are on the same page!!!

Edited November 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[USA-1]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Toyoter is not mine....its Balthy's

 

I appreciate your input about the Corvette. And I knew all that.  Now...I aint being condescending about you correcting me. I knew what I wrote was not accurate. And I do not mind you pointing it out that I was wrong.  I was exaggerating...to prove a point.

And what point is that?

That point that you stated!!!

I should not have mentioned the C4...but even then, the C4 to the C7, the design and layout of the platform's have not changed. And that is what I wanted to convey. it just came out wrong.

But yeah!   I like that you and I are on the same page!!!

The C8.R pic you posted is going to look very similar to the "Zora" C8 ZR1. Can't wait!!

[oldshurst442]

Me too!!!

Although Im gravitating to the cleaner design of the Z51.   But we obviously do not know how it will really look...

Its been awhile since I have preferred the Z51 or (base) styling of the Corvette over its higher performance versions.

The C1...its the 1958 version I prefer with all that chrome on the deck lid and the louvers on the hood.  Yeah. I  like all that excess. 

The C2, its the 427 1967 coupe that I prefer with the hood scoop and the side pipes.

The C3, the 427 1969 with the side pipes...and bulge in the hood. 

The C4 is just about the only Vette where I prefer the 1984 base version over any other C4.  And the base 1986 convertible.   OK...the 1989 Callaway Speedster would be my favorite C4 but a Callaway is not really factory...so that does not count...

The C5 would be the Z06 coupe. Yeah, Im just about a rare breed that prefers not to have that glass hatch on the C5.  In Millennium Yellow of course. 

The C6 would be the Z06 and a close second the ZR1 looks over the base C6. In Yellow of course. The ZR1 would be in blue. 

The C7 would be the Z06 with the Z07 package that I prefer.  In yellow of course.

Edited November 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, USA-1 said:

I agree with you on fullsize pickup trucks and their ridiculous 2 or 4 year "refresh" now that are basically a new grille design or a change to the headlight tech and/or design. It's funny because it used to be 7-10 years before the domestics would change much of anything on their fullsize trucks until about the '14 or '15 MY, now the other guy has the "All New" truck and Corp. top brass saying "we can't have that" it's all a sales tactic obviously. I also agree that pretty soon these fullsize trucks are going to haul way more than they need to or more than the driver is even licensed for (CDL) and the turbo diesel power output is now 450-500hp and 850-1000 ft. lbs of torque and a max GVWR of 35K+ lbs. and again anything over 26,001 lbs. you need a CDL, so yep 18 wheeler territory in that respect ? 

Agreed. I firmly believe this is a big reason prices have jumped so high in the last 15 years or so. They are amortizing the billions of investment over only a handful of years instead of a decade and they need to recoup ASAP because of it.

[balthazar]

And it all goes back to marketing; “MORE, NEW, BETTERER!!!” More models, more trims, faster turnover. It’s spiraled to the edge of sustainability. The pendulum has to swing back at some point.

[ccap41]

58 minutes ago, balthazar said:

And it all goes back to marketing; “MORE, NEW, BETTERER!!!” More models, more trims, faster turnover. It’s spiraled to the edge of sustainability. The pendulum has to swing back at some point.

Oh I don't think it is sustainable at all. Once people start to default on these 84/96 month loans and sales start to drop, because it feels inevitable, they'll be forced to extend model years. We could only hope that prices would hold steady for some time as well in doing that. 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Agreed. I firmly believe this is a big reason prices have jumped so high in the last 15 years or so. They are amortizing the billions of investment over only a handful of years instead of a decade and they need to recoup ASAP because of it.

Yep. Even 10 years ago it wasn't as bad as it is now. In 2009 you could still buy a brand new loaded Silverado LTZ, 6.2L, Leather, Sunroof, 4x4, Crew that was stickered at $50k for $45k, now to get the same with leather it's stickered at $55k+ and with HC trim it's $60k - 68k. It definitely will not sustain at this rate, it's going to place many people out of the market and already has for some. I think all the fullsize truck manf's. know their pricing is ridiculously high and that they also know they are going to slap $10k+ on the hood right off the bat to make it look better to buyers as well as the banks financing them and in the end they're still raking in huge profits. It's all about Sales and like Balth stated it's a Marketing ploy as well. 

[Drew Dowdell]

And yet people complain when a perfectly good platform like the LX is still around, being competitive.

[ccap41]

I think there is a happy medium between 6 years and 72 years. 

[USA-1]

8- 10 years is fine seemed to me like it was the same everything since 2005 and PSAFCA, if that's what they are going to call the new conglomerate, will drop the LX and build the same old 300 on the Giorgio platform like the new Chally and Charger will be on. I'm betting Chrysler will eventually get the axe along with Fiat and Alfa here in the U.S. Seems like PSAFCAXYZ ? will need to cut the fat being that all 3 makes pull from the Corp. coffers.

I really don't think we need anymore auto makes in this country, seems to be getting a little out of hand. Do we really want Peugeot back here?! ? 

Edited November 8, 2019 by USA-1

[Drew Dowdell]

19 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

8- 10 years is fine seemed to me like it was the same everything since 2005 and PSAFCA, if that's what they are going to call the new conglomerate, will drop the LX and build the same old 300 on the Giorgio platform like the new Chally and Charger will be on. I'm betting Chrysler will eventually get the axe along with Fiat and Alfa here in the U.S. Seems like PSAFCAXYZ ? will need to cut the fat being that all 3 makes pull from the Corp. coffers.

I really don't think we need anymore auto makes in this country, seems to be getting a little out of hand. Do we really want Peugeot back here?! ? 

Sounds like they don't plan to kill any of the brands. Good news for Dodge and Chrysler I guess. 

 

[USA-1]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Sounds like they don't plan to kill any of the brands. Good news for Dodge and Chrysler I guess. 

 

I just got done reading the same in an Auto News article. Sounds like Carlos is just trying to keep all the investors happy. No extra immediate shock waves with the merger etc...

Edited November 8, 2019 by USA-1