Chrysler News: FCA and PSA are in Merger Talks

[Drew Dowdell]

According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and PSA are in merger talks.  This after the failed merger negotiations last spring between FCA and Renault.   The merger is reportedly an all-share merger of equals with PSA CEO Carlos Tavares at the helm as CEO and FCA Chairman John Elkann retaining his position in the new company. 

The "talks are fluid" and the paper reported that "no guarantee that any final agreement will be reached".

FCA had previously turned down a merger offer from PSA back in March.  PSA is still digesting their acquisition of Opel from General Motors.

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[G. David Felt]

This would be a good fit to consolidate these two companies into one.

[regfootball]

wow i have an opel and a chrysler already, this would be like getting invited to a European wedding party WOOT

[smk4565]

They gotta merge with somebody, really in both their cases.  Either one of these companies isn’t sustainable as they are.

[USA-1]

FCA needs to discontinue Chrysler model vehicles already, they're just hogging capital and plant space.

Edited October 29, 2019 by USA-1

[balthazar]

16 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

FCA needs to discontinue Chrysler model vehicles already, they're just hogging capital and plant space.

And what are fiat & alfa doing??

[USA-1]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

And what are fiat & alfa doing??

Good point, those two need to go too, Fiat for sure. I was just thinking the Domestic side of FCA with the next UAW strike looming. Although I do like the Alfa Ro Guilia Quadrifoglio always have since the new ones came out, neighbor has a bright blue one that looks pretty sweet and the exhaust note is pretty burly for a TTV6. I know they're pretty unreliable still, but it looks different and stands out from the crowd. AR's have a poor reliability image and are too overpriced to be successful.

[balthazar]

Sales are abysmal.

[riviera74]

Whack FIAT and Alfa Romeo first.  Then merge with Peugeot.  PSA will have to cut Opel down to size in order for the merger to actually work.

[smk4565]

There is tremendous brand overlap that has to be solved with all these. But if you look at it from a standpoint of engines and transmissions, battery and electric motor, etc,  you really need like 3 four cylinder engines and a couple V6 that could get spread across 3 million units per year.  And probably 3-4 platforms that can underpin 30 different models and all you have to change is the styling.

For sure need Ram, Jeep and Peugeot, and they need a luxury brand so Alfa or Maserati has to stay.  They don’t need 12 brands though probably 5-6 will do it.

[balthazar]

Don't forget lancia- the brand sold 300K units in 1990, it's down to 48K in 2018, 80% of those sales in just Italy. FCA has allowed it to die on the vine. Kill Lancia; the money is better utilized at Chrysler.

[Drew Dowdell]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Don't forget lancia- the brand sold 300K units in 1990, it's down to 48K in 2018, 80% of those sales in just Italy. FCA has allowed it to die on the vine. Kill Lancia; the money is better utilized at Chrysler.

Lancia is just a Chrysler 300 with a Thema badge on it. They only have the one model. 

Edit: I told a lie. The Ypsilon is still in production. 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Lancia is just a Chrysler 300 with a Thema badge on it. They only have the one model. 

Edit: I told a lie. The Ypsilon is still in production. 

Really? Jeez, Daimler/Chrysler really got their money out of that Benz platform, old E Class right? Has to be well over 15 yrs. old by now.

[Drew Dowdell]

48 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Really? Jeez, Daimler/Chrysler really got their money out of that Benz platform, old E Class right? Has to be well over 15 yrs. old by now.

The LX platform is not an old E-class platform.  They used the rear suspension, the transmission, and some of the switch gear from the E-Class and that was it, and that was only in the first generation.  By the time the second generation rolled around, there was no Benz left except for the 5-speed automatic in the V8 models. 

[riviera74]

Yes it is happening: https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2019/10/fiat-chrysler-peugeot-agree-to-merge/

[USA-1]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The LX platform is not an old E-class platform.  They used the rear suspension, the transmission, and some of the switch gear from the E-Class and that was it, and that was only in the first generation.  By the time the second generation rolled around, there was no Benz left except for the 5-speed automatic in the V8 models. 

I don't closely follow Chrysler or MB like some of you on here, but I knew it had to do with at least parts sharing with the E Class in the beginning. Either way it's very long in the tooth and due to get the axe, but FCA is slowing letting it die like many of their models. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, USA-1 said:

I don't closely follow Chrysler or MB like some of you on here, but I knew it had to do with at least parts sharing with the E Class in the beginning. Either way it's very long in the tooth and due to get the axe, but FCA is slowing letting it die like many of their models. 

All it needs is a visual and interior refresh and it would be fine to run another 4 or 5 years.  The powertrain and performance are plenty competitive. 

[USA-1]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

All it needs is a visual and interior refresh and it would be fine to run another 4 or 5 years.

Even the latest LD platform is 9 years old, that's ancient in the automotive world! It needs more than just another minimal refresh like it's had since 2005. It has dinosaur hide for seats at this point!

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, USA-1 said:

Even the latest LD platform is 9 years old, that's ancient in the automotive world! It needs more than just another minimal refresh like it's had since 2005. It has dinosaur hide for seats at this point!

That's just it.... a new car built on an older car platform is still a new car... it doesn't need to be all new just for the sake of being new. The LX platform already can do things like lane monitoring and automatic cruise control... what else should it have that it doesn't have now? It gets competitive fuel economy, has competitive horsepower, they just need an interior refresh and they'd be good. 

They're my favorite long distance cruiser when I'm renting a car. 

[USA-1]

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's just it.... a new car built on an older car platform is still a new car... it doesn't need to be all new just for the sake of being new. The LX platform already can do things like lane monitoring and automatic cruise control... what else should it have that it doesn't have now? It gets competitive fuel economy, has competitive horsepower, they just need an interior refresh and they'd be good. 

They're my favorite long distance cruiser when I'm renting a car. 

I could tell you had a spot reserved for it in your heart

It's not a bad looking car just so much of the same. I drove one with a "Hemi" back in 2009 just to see how they were. The dealer had installed aftermarket wheels on it so the suspension and brakes couldn't handle the extra unsprung weight, it drove like a tank and the 5 speed hunted for gears like crazy. 

[balthazar]

The idea that a platform is too old after 5 or 7 or even 10 years, just because of that, seems ridiculous to me. 

[ccap41]

Agreed.

I think manufacturers need to work on heavier refreshes to make platforms last longer, their investments. 

I can't imagine how much money could be saved/profited if they extended a platform for even one additional year after all fixed costs associated to R&D have been amortized. 

[Drew Dowdell]

16 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

I could tell you had a spot reserved for it in your heart

It's not a bad looking car just so much of the same. I drove one with a "Hemi" back in 2009 just to see how they were. The dealer had installed aftermarket wheels on it so the suspension and brakes couldn't handle the extra unsprung weight, it drove like a tank and the 5 speed hunted for gears like crazy. 

The 8-speed is substantially better. If you haven't driven one since 2009, that's probably why you feel the way you do about it. A 2019 300S is a great car.

[balthazar]

Its not like platforms are weak, or lacking crash performance design, or ride poorly (platform is a strictly minor factor in that), or are still using decades-old suspension, or ANYTHING like that. And the other issue is that the SOP here is a ‘clean sheet’ redesign. All that says is the previous one they advertised & sold for years is garbage.

We’re way past the need for completely new platforms for the same brand/ model.

[USA-1]

25 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The 8-speed is substantially better. If you haven't driven one since 2009, that's probably why you feel the way you do about it. A 2019 300S is a great car.

Meh, they just don't do it for me bored with it's same basic look for 15 years. To each their own.

[USA-1]

19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Its not like platforms are weak, or lacking crash performance design, or ride poorly (platform is a strictly minor factor in that), or are still using decades-old suspension, or ANYTHING like that. And the other issue is that the SOP here is a ‘clean sheet’ redesign. All that says is the previous one they advertised & sold for years is garbage.

We’re way past the need for completely new platforms for the same brand/ model.

When a midsize car weighs 4,380 lbs. like the 2019 300 it's time to replace or heavily update, that's a tank in today's standards. https://g.co/kgs/8Brhaj

The fullsize 2019 CT6 weighs at most 4,470 lbs. in loaded AWD Blackwing V8 form. https://g.co/kgs/ifidiZ

That's latest tech. to old tech. platform design.

 

 

[Robert Hall]

The 300 is a full size.  The wheelbase is only a couple inches shorter than the CT6.  It just has shorter overhangs.   In fact, the wheelbase is about 9 inches longer than the full size Impala.  The weight is fine.    

Edited October 30, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

The 300 is a full size.  The wheelbase is only a couple inches shorter than the CT6.  It just has shorter overhangs. The weight is fine.  

It's considered midsize, see link above. Nowhere near the size or room inside of a CT6, I've driven both.

[Robert Hall]

Just now, USA-1 said:

It's considered midsize, see link above. Nowhere near the size or room inside of a CT6, I've driven both.

Never seen it referred to as a midsize.   Always seen it classified as full size. 

[USA-1]

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Never seen it referred to as a midsize.   Always seen it classified as full size. 

Think it's a tweener, but technically a midsize. Definitely smaller than a CT6 fullsize.

[balthazar]

300 wheelbase : 120", overall length : 199"
CT6 wheelbase : 122", overall length : 205"
Certainly close enough to appeal to the same shoppers.
I don't remotely care what the Environmental Protection Agency arbitrarily classifies their respective interior cubic space as.

[USA-1]

39 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The 300 is a full size.  The wheelbase is only a couple inches shorter than the CT6.  It just has shorter overhangs.   In fact, the wheelbase is about 9 inches longer than the full size Impala.  The weight is fine.    

Can't compare FWD wheelbase to RWD wheelbase cars. Always shorter in FWD form with the transaxle being pushed back near qtr. panel/door gap.  

[USA-1]

29 minutes ago, balthazar said:

300 wheelbase : 120", overall length : 199"
CT6 wheelbase : 122", overall length : 205"
Certainly close enough to appeal to the same shoppers.
I don't remotely care what the Environmental Protection Agency arbitrarily classifies their respective interior cubic space as.

Me neither, but this isn't the EPA stating the class of car it's all the automotive experts. https://g.co/kgs/8Brhaj

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

Can't compare FWD wheelbase to RWD wheelbase cars. Always shorter in FWD form with the transaxle being pushed back near qtr. panel/door gap.  

What are you talking about? Both the CT6 and 300 are RWD. 

If you look under the specs tab on this page, you'll see the EPA classifies the 300 as a "Large Car".  It's not mid-size.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40610

The CT6 uses exceptionally expensive lightweight tech in order to achieve that weight.  It weighs less than an AWD 3-series... are you saying the 3-series is out of date too?  The CT6 (like the Avalon) is an anomaly on the weight scale, you can't really judge the whole class based on the CT6 alone.  Most of the 300's direct competition is right around the same weight give or take 100 lbs. 

[Robert Hall]

The FWD was in reference to the Impala, which is also a full size model, but with a rather short wheelbase.  (XTS has the wheelbase IIRC)

Edited October 31, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What are you talking about? Both the CT6 and 300 are RWD. 

If you look under the specs tab on this page, you'll see the EPA classifies the 300 as a "Large Car".  It's not mid-size.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40610

The CT6 uses exceptionally expensive lightweight tech in order to achieve that weight.  It weighs less than an AWD 3-series... are you saying the 3-series is out of date too?  The CT6 (like the Avalon) is an anomaly on the weight scale, you can't really judge the whole class based on the CT6 alone.  Most of the 300's direct competition is right around the same weight give or take 100 lbs. 

Did you see where Robert compared the fullsize Impala which is FWD? That's what I'm talking about. 

"In fact, the wheelbase is about 9 inches longer than the full size Impala." 

Edited 2 hours ago by Robert Hall

 

Exactly, current high tech. with high strength steel, aluminum, magnesium and other light weight metals to cut weight and increase mpg's. 3 Series isn't even the same class and you know that. I'm talking about the same class of cars. Also, the 3 Series is huge for it's class now, not the E36 3 Series of yore. 

8 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The FWD was in reference to the Impala, which is also a full size model, but with a rather short wheelbase.  (XTS has the wheelbase IIRC)

Yep, same wheelbase and platform for Impala, LaCrosse and XTS.

[Drew Dowdell]

Right, but they aren't going to spend that money on a car that retails for $29,995 base.  In order to get the CT6 tech, it's gotta be priced high.  Not even the CT4 and CT5 have the weight saving tech. 

[USA-1]

21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What are you talking about? Both the CT6 and 300 are RWD. 

If you look under the specs tab on this page, you'll see the EPA classifies the 300 as a "Large Car".  It's not mid-size.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40610

The CT6 uses exceptionally expensive lightweight tech in order to achieve that weight.  It weighs less than an AWD 3-series... are you saying the 3-series is out of date too?  The CT6 (like the Avalon) is an anomaly on the weight scale, you can't really judge the whole class based on the CT6 alone.  Most of the 300's direct competition is right around the same weight give or take 100 lbs. 

So a "Large Car" is between midsize and fullsize then? Like I stated earlier it's a tweener. I never said it wasn't a large car, but it's not as large or roomy as the CT6. CT6 is definitely on a whole nother level and a much better car.

Edited October 31, 2019 by USA-1

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

So a "Large Car" is between midsize and fullsize then? Like I stated earlier it's a tweener. I never said it wasn't a large car, but it's not as large or roomy as the CT6.

 

Large car is synonymous with full size,  the 300 is  a full size that is smaller than the CT6...there are variations within the full size category, always have been...just like in olden days how a GM C-body was bigger inside and out than a B-body.   Both were full size platforms.

And I wasn't comparing the 300 w/ the CT6 in terms of price or content;  just that they are both full size sedans, as is the Taurus, Merc S-class, Impala, LaCrosse, XTS, Avalon, 7-series, etc...all different price points and content levels and dimensions...

Edited October 31, 2019 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

So a "Large Car" is between midsize and fullsize then? Like I stated earlier it's a tweener. I never said it wasn't a large car, but it's not as large or roomy as the CT6. CT6 is definitely on a whole nother level and a much better car.

Large car is Full size. I'm not saying it is as big as a CT6, but the CT6 is just a larger full size car. 

[USA-1]

17 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Large car is synonymous with full size,  the 300 is  a full size that is smaller than the CT6...there are variations within the full size category, always have been...just like in olden days how a GM C-body was bigger inside and out than a B-body.   Both were full size. 

I was talking on a technical basis. Go to the rental counter they will completely confuse people on the size of cars and what they think is a compact, midsize or fullsize.

Edited October 31, 2019 by USA-1

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, USA-1 said:

I was talking on a technical basis. Go to the rental counter they will completely confuse people on the size of cars and what they think is a compact, midsize or fullsize haha.

Rental car companies use invalid size categorizations. 

[USA-1]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

Large car is Full size. I'm not saying it is as big as a CT6, but the CT6 is just a larger full size car. 

I was being facetious, you just can't hear me lol. I know that all fullsize cars aren't exactly the same size, just like fullsize trucks dimensions are slightly different. 

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

Rental car companies use invalid size categorizations. 

I know, it's so annoying when you know they're wrong and want to tell them that a Chevy Malibu is not a fullsize car haha.

[Robert Hall]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

I was being facetious, you just can't hear me lol. I know that all fullsize cars aren't exactly the same size, just like fullsize trucks dimensions are slightly different. 

I know, it's so annoying when you know they're wrong and want to tell them that a Chevy Malibu is not a fullsize car haha.

I always find it irritating w/ rental car companies that I have to specify a 'premium' or 'standard' size to get an actual full size car.   Though on more than one occasion they didn't have a full size car in stock and I've ended up with a Tahoe, Yukon or Escalade...  though I don't mind those.  

Edited October 31, 2019 by Robert Hall

[USA-1]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

I always find it irritating w/ rental car companies that I have to get a 'premium' or 'standard' size to get an actual full size car.   Though on more than one occasion they didn't have a full size car in stock and I've ended up with a Tahoe, Yukon or Escalade...

Yep, that's why I like National Emerald Isle just pick one that's big enough whether a fullsize SUV/CUV or Large Premium car and go.

[Robert Hall]

Just now, USA-1 said:

Yep, that's why I like National Emerald Isle just pick one that's big enough whether a fullsize SUV/CUV or Large Premium car and go.

Yeah, much the same as Hertz #1 Club Gold.. I just reserve by category and pick one from the row..   

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm a National guy myself.  Been Executive Elite with them for years... I can pick almost anything on the lot. 

[USA-1]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm a National guy myself.  Been Executive Elite with them for years... I can pick almost anything on the lot. 

National rocks

[Robert Hall]

I've stuck w/ Hertz the last 5 years or so...used to use Enterprise when I lived in Phoenix, had an Enterprise location about a mile from my house, used to rent from them for long weekends to drive over to So Cal to escape the vile summer heat...

[USA-1]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

I've stuck w/ Hertz the last 5 years or so...used to use Enterprise when I lived in Phoenix, had an Enterprise location about a mile from my house, used to rent from them for long weekends to drive over to So Cal to escape the vile summer heat...

Our Summers make you a real man ??? ? It's a dry heat just turn the AC up for July and Aug. the only brutal months really. Pretty nice today it was 70 today 50 for low. Fall is awesome here. Really hard to beat AZ weather 9 - 10 mos. out of the year, you know that.   

So. Cal for an escape from the heat? There are times they are just as hot as The Valley especially this last Summer. I travel there often for work.