Q3 2019: Ford Motor Company

[Drew Dowdell]

[ccap41]

It's still crazy to me that they're getting rid of the Fusion with those numbers. 

[Drew Dowdell]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It's still crazy to me that they're getting rid of the Fusion with those numbers. 

Exactly.

[ccap41]

I know 200,000 units isn't the 300,000+ of when it first came out but there is something very wrong about not being able to profit(or enough profit) to justify a 150,000-200,000 units per year product. 

[Drew Dowdell]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I know 200,000 units isn't the 300,000+ of when it first came out but there is something very wrong about not being able to profit(or enough profit) to justify a 150,000-200,000 units per year product. 

I think I said something similar a while ago.  If Ford can't make a profit on 200,000 Fusions a year, the problem isn't the Fusion. 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think I said something similar a while ago.  If Ford can't make a profit on 200,000 Fusions a year, the problem isn't the Fusion. 

Corporate incompetence, I'd assume.  

[ccap41]

18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think I said something similar a while ago.  If Ford can't make a profit on 200,000 Fusions a year, the problem isn't the Fusion. 

100%. 

[smk4565]

SUVs down 10%, which wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t killing all their cars to focus on SUVs.

[ccap41]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

SUVs down 10%, which wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t killing all their cars to focus on SUVs.

Per your Mercedes excuse, two of their most important SUVs are just beginning to hit lots or not quiet yet. Escape & Explorer. 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think I said something similar a while ago.  If Ford can't make a profit on 200,000 Fusions a year, the problem isn't the Fusion. 

But unless stated otherwise: it’s an assumption that the Fusion doesn’t make a profit. It’s quite possible that a high volume CUV just makes MORE profit, and CUVs of course are the market trend.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

But unless stated otherwise: it’s an assumption that the Fusion doesn’t make a profit. It’s quite possible that a high volume CUV just makes MORE profit, and CUVs of course are the market trend.

If it makes a profit, why cede that segment to the Japanese?

[balthazar]

Japanese make more profit on CUVs too. And as sedan volume continues to erode, their margins get slimmer & slimmer. I believe Ford and to the extent it did; GM are ahead of the curve on this.

Back when buying a non-sedan family vehicle meant a hulking V8 BOF Explorer, yeah; a sedan was a clear preference to many. But with CUVs matching sedans in size, power, economy, amenities... why would more folk than now want a sedan again?

[USA-1]

FMC needs to hack CEO Hackett like yesterday, he's the weakest link that wanted to cut all cars.

[ccap41]

43 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

FMC needs to hack CEO Hackett like yesterday, he's the weakest link that wanted to cut all cars.

Why keep a dying segment? 

Isn't GM getting cars as well? They're keeping the Camaro and Malibu and the $h!ty twins. It's only a matter of time before the micro cars are gone, too. 

[Robert Hall]

When the CUV craze dies out, will buyers want sedans again?   I think the Asian brands are smart in not abandoning the segment. 

[balthazar]

Its well beyond a ‘craze’. See the Lamborghini Urus.

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

When the CUV craze dies out, will buyers want sedans again?   I think the Asian brands are smart in not abandoning the segment. 

Electrics will kill off the sedan as eventually with better battery tech, why go with the limits of a sedan when a CUV can cover much more.

I see a niche market for cars in the future and that is for the long haul on how I see it.

[frogger]

I think most companies will be keep it down to two or so sedans moving forward, but they will have to be on platforms that the CUVs are also built on.

 

 

 

[ccap41]

" "We're not getting out of passenger cars, we're getting out of sedans," said Kumar Galhotra, Ford's group vice president and president of Ford North America. "It's language, but it's a very important distinction. I learned this from my boss, (CEO) Jim Hackett: Silhouettes are changing. The data is compelling that silhouettes are changing." "

[G. David Felt]

54 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

" "We're not getting out of passenger cars, we're getting out of sedans," said Kumar Galhotra, Ford's group vice president and president of Ford North America. "It's language, but it's a very important distinction. I learned this from my boss, (CEO) Jim Hackett: Silhouettes are changing. The data is compelling that silhouettes are changing." "

I actually agree with this and as we move away form ICE auto's to skateboard platforms of EVs, if the public wants a sedan style coach, they will get it easily as the platform will allow a quick change in coach design to be attached to the skateboard.

In this regards we are like back in the early 1900's when everything was body on frame and we had a multitude of coach builders using GM or Ford Frames.

[balthazar]

The ‘skateboard’ really changes nothing except within Engineering. Every combination will have to go thru the same multitude of rigorous testing & certification. They will also have to be assembled to pass crash testing.

Coachbuilding was primarily done on expensive marques, so while there were plenty of Cadillacs custom-built... there were no Fords and surprisingly; almost no Lincolns. When Henry Ford died, there was no Lincoln hearse to carry him, so -rather than use the competition’s Cadillac hearse- they used a Packard.

[USA-1]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Why keep a dying segment? 

Isn't GM getting cars as well? They're keeping the Camaro and Malibu and the $h!ty twins. It's only a matter of time before the micro cars are gone, too. 

Yes, GM is discontinuing all Chevy and Buick cars, but the Malibu and Camaro, the Impala was 3rd or 4th in a segment that's fading fast, but it's mainly going away because it and the LaCrosse ride on the same Epsilon II platform as the Cadillac XTS that was being phased out and the plant they were built in was closing right behind the last car out. Impala/LaCrosse/XTS was a 10 yr old platform brought out in 2010. Cad. CT cars are all RWD/AWD so it didn't fit the current portfolio, although it still sold pretty well with Livery companies/drivers. When there is another Recession and they need to start building smaller cars again it wouldn't be that difficult for GM or Ford to fire the stamping machines back up for smaller cars if need be, being that most of the CUV's ride on the same chassis because the cars on the chassis do get a bit better mpg with less weight and drag.

Fusion obviously isn't dying sales wise, so they should keep at least that sedan along with the Mustang although Fusion has had it's fair share of Recalls with the 2018 Recall where lose steering wheels that were separating completely from the steering shaft (which is insane) and the 2016 Recall where the drivers seat track assembly had bad welds that were breaking in accidents probably caused by the steering wheel falling off that was caused by the most recent 2019 recall where the shifter cables corrode and break off from the transmission ?? maybe Ford is making a good decision to discontinue the disaster that it was.

I think the Asian brands will following suit as well, they know the sedans days are numbered, but they sell a cheap econbox that many A to B buyers still want...for now.  

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The ‘skateboard’ really changes nothing except within Engineering. Every combination will have to go thru the same multitude of rigorous testing & certification. They will also have to be assembled to pass crash testing.

Coachbuilding was primarily done on expensive marques, so while there were plenty of Cadillacs custom-built... there were no Fords and surprisingly; almost no Lincolns. When Henry Ford died, there was no Lincoln hearse to carry him, so -rather than use the competition’s Cadillac hearse- they used a Packard.

Really? That's pretty sad, he definitely should have gone out in a Lincoln. He probably told the family "Don't you dare put my body in a GD Cadillac!" HA!!

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I actually agree with this and as we move away form ICE auto's to skateboard platforms of EVs, if the public wants a sedan style coach, they will get it easily as the platform will allow a quick change in coach design to be attached to the skateboard.

In this regards we are like back in the early 1900's when everything was body on frame and we had a multitude of coach builders using GM or Ford Frames.

Long Live Body on Frame Domestic pickups! ?????

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

" "We're not getting out of passenger cars, we're getting out of sedans," said Kumar Galhotra, Ford's group vice president and president of Ford North America. "It's language, but it's a very important distinction. I learned this from my boss, (CEO) Jim Hackett: Silhouettes are changing. The data is compelling that silhouettes are changing." "

So no more Lincoln sedans even?! Or are they still struggling to keep Lincoln on it's own?

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

Electrics will kill off the sedan as eventually with better battery tech, why go with the limits of a sedan when a CUV can cover much more.

I see a niche market for cars in the future and that is for the long haul on how I see it.

So you think no more Model S or 3?! Hard to believe that.

[USA-1]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

When the CUV craze dies out, will buyers want sedans again?   I think the Asian brands are smart in not abandoning the segment. 

Asian brands will definitely follow, maybe not all sedans like Ford, but just wait.

[G. David Felt]

5 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

So you think no more Model S or 3?! Hard to believe that.

Yes, I think eventually once Tesla has their truck, complete series from compact to full size CUV/SUV that the sedan will die too except for a limited amount of maybe 1 or 2 at most sedans.

[USA-1]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes, I think eventually once Tesla has their truck, complete series from compact to full size CUV/SUV that the sedan will die too except for a limited amount of maybe 1 or 2 at most sedans.

An EV car is one thing, but I just think an EV truck will be strange when driving and not hearing the engine and exhaust note. I'd need exhaust sounds broadcasted over the stereo like GM does now with the Escalade and other trucks that are so quiet inside, they do it with the CTS-V and other cars too. I think an EV sedan will definitely still be desirable and sell in limited quantities like you said at the end. They do sell well, but not everyone wants a CUV/SUV.

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

So no more Lincoln sedans even?! Or are they still struggling to keep Lincoln on it's own?

That said nothing about Lincoln and being on their own or not. 

Lincoln is separating from Ford more now than it has in decades. 

[G. David Felt]

8 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

An EV car is one thing, but I just think an EV truck will be strange when driving and not hearing the engine and exhaust note. I'd need exhaust sounds broadcasted over the stereo like GM does now with the Escalade and other trucks that are so quiet inside, they do it with the CTS-V and other cars too. I think an EV sedan will definitely still be desirable and sell in limited quantities like you said at the end. They do sell well, but not everyone wants a CUV/SUV.

I honestly cannot wait for ICE to go away as the noise  is just that noise that I do not want or need and I hope that one can turn off the fake engine noise in the stereo system. I want to hear my music, not an auto. 

I also look forward to the days of Diesel being dead as just yesterday, I got off the bus to walk home, waiting for the light at an intersection and some 20 something idiot in his Ford Diesel stomps on it as he is getting ready to go through the intersection and belches out a cloud of black smoke that covers me and everyone else who got off the bus and he is laughing as he looks at us having just assaulted us with his noise, TOXIC soot and stupidity. These people are not understanding the reason for the diesel and why it can be eventually down the road replaced by quiet trucks that do not contaminate my air.

Do not get me wrong, I totally appreciate a properly tuned tone coming from an auto and tail pipe, but I leave that to the track, those specialty auto's. For the most part quiet auto's for getting around so you can hear the natural sounds of our planet is best for me.

? Guess I am showing my almost 52 years of age. 

[Robert Hall]

16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I honestly cannot wait for ICE to go away as the noise  is just that noise that I do not want or need and I hope that one can turn off the fake engine noise in the stereo system. I want to hear my music, not an auto. 

 

Same here.  I want a very quiet serene cabin w/ minimal road noise and minimal or no engine noise. I want to listen to my music w/ clarity, whether it's classical, classic rock, new wave, jazz, synthwave, etc..

One area of cabin noise that automakers could improve on is the HVAC system....hate the noise of the fan when the A/C or heat is cranked up.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

I'm glad I'm not that old yet. I love induction and exhaust noises on the correct vehicles. 

[G. David Felt]

10 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Same here.  I want a very quiet serene cabin w/ minimal road noise and minimal or no engine noise. I want to listen to my music w/ clarity, whether it's classical, classic rock, new wave, jazz, synthwave, etc..

One area of cabin noise that automakers could improve on is the HVAC system....hate the noise of the fan when the A/C or heat is cranked up.

This +1,000,000

Totally agree that we can have quiet HVAC systems and Dyson has proven that with their fans. It costs money, but then especially for luxury auto's that is what it is all about. It should be whisper quiet.

Yesterday met with some friends that are looking to replace their car and they test drove a Cadillac CT5 and then a Genesis 90 and told me while they love the exterior and interior of the CT5, it lost out to the Genesis which was way more quiet in driving.They both are 50 and said for them they love a spirited drive, but want as quiet an auto as possible.

I think the Auto companies need to understand that and address it in the auto's.

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I'm glad I'm not that old yet. I love induction and exhaust noises on the correct vehicles. 

Like I said, it has it's place but not every auto has to have induction / exhaust noises. I would want that on a performance focused auto, but on a non performance focused ride, give me a quiet environment.

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'm glad I'm not that old yet. I love induction and exhaust noises on the correct vehicles. 

I enjoy real induction and exhaust noises in a performance car.  Not fake, but not in a daily driver.   It's all about context...

Edited October 4, 2019 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Like I said, it has it's place but not every auto has to have induction / exhaust noises. I would want that on a performance focused auto, but on a non performance focused ride, give me a quiet environment.

Very very few vehicles have loud exhausts or induction noises and even less come from the factory that way. 

[USA-1]

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

This +1,000,000

Totally agree that we can have quiet HVAC systems and Dyson has proven that with their fans. It costs money, but then especially for luxury auto's that is what it is all about. It should be whisper quiet.

Yesterday met with some friends that are looking to replace their car and they test drove a Cadillac CT5 and then a Genesis 90 and told me while they love the exterior and interior of the CT5, it lost out to the Genesis which was way more quiet in driving.They both are 50 and said for them they love a spirited drive, but want as quiet an auto as possible.

I think the Auto companies need to understand that and address it in the auto's.

Like I said, it has it's place but not every auto has to have induction / exhaust noises. I would want that on a performance focused auto, but on a non performance focused ride, give me a quiet environment.

Like the Genovation GXE EV Corvette, that's almost sacrilegious. No exhaust sound on a Vette is like no mayo on a sandwich, dry and boring. 

[USA-1]

8 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I enjoy real induction and exhaust noises in a performance car.  Not fake, but not in a daily driver.   It's all about context...

You actually can't tell that it's amplified sound in the Cadillac. They pipe actual exhaust sound and engine bay intake sounds from mics into the Bose Panaray sound system so it's real engine sounds, but doesn't really sound like it's coming from the Bose system, hard to explain until you drive one, I've driven a CTS-V it's pretty impressive. It's a nice and quiet V8 when cruising or a brute force sound whenever you want.   

[USA-1]

9 hours ago, dfelt said:

I honestly cannot wait for ICE to go away as the noise  is just that noise that I do not want or need and I hope that one can turn off the fake engine noise in the stereo system. I want to hear my music, not an auto. 

I also look forward to the days of Diesel being dead as just yesterday, I got off the bus to walk home, waiting for the light at an intersection and some 20 something idiot in his Ford Diesel stomps on it as he is getting ready to go through the intersection and belches out a cloud of black smoke that covers me and everyone else who got off the bus and he is laughing as he looks at us having just assaulted us with his noise, TOXIC soot and stupidity. These people are not understanding the reason for the diesel and why it can be eventually down the road replaced by quiet trucks that do not contaminate my air.

Do not get me wrong, I totally appreciate a properly tuned tone coming from an auto and tail pipe, but I leave that to the track, those specialty auto's. For the most part quiet auto's for getting around so you can hear the natural sounds of our planet is best for me.

? Guess I am showing my almost 52 years of age. 

Oh damn some guy rolled coal on you? That's pretty crappy.

It's funny because my Father at 67 still wants to hear his V8 in his Escalade or C6 Convertible Vette when he stands on it, actually ordered the exhaust pkg. on his Escalade haha and says he's not ready for an EV when I asked him about Tesla, so not all older gents like the quiet of an EV, he's a older gear head for sure.

[G. David Felt]

33 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

Like the Genovation GXE EV Corvette, that's almost sacrilegious. No exhaust sound on a Vette is like no mayo on a sandwich, dry and boring. 

How is Mayo dry? ?

4 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

Oh damn some guy rolled coal on you? That's pretty crappy.

It's funny because my Father at 67 still wants to hear his V8 in his Escalade or C6 Convertible Vette when he stands on it, actually ordered the exhaust pkg. on his Escalade haha and says he's not ready for an EV when I asked him about Tesla, so not all older gents like the quiet of an EV, he's a older gear head for sure.

I love my SS and the natural V8 Borla sound it gives me, but on my Escalade ESV for road trips, I want it quiet so that I can enjoy my music and scenery. Love the Caddy for Road Trips, SS for playing around and moving around quickly. Let me ROAR or GLIDE depending on my use.

[USA-1]

7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

How is Mayo dry? ?

I love my SS and the natural V8 Borla sound it gives me, but on my Escalade ESV for road trips, I want it quiet so that I can enjoy my music and scenery. Love the Caddy for Road Trips, SS for playing around and moving around quickly. Let me ROAR or GLIDE depending on my use.

I stated "like no mayo on a sandwich, dry and boring." 

Roar or Glide? Are you talking you're up in the air now?

TGIF!

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

I stated "like no mayo on a sandwich, dry and boring." 

Roar or Glide? Are you talking you're up in the air now?

TGIF!

My Bad, I totally missed the No part of that No Mayo. 

LOL, Yes I might just be, WHY..........

I am 43 minutes away from going on PTO and will be offline for the next week in the Canadian Rockies at Fairmont Hot springs.

You can check it out here: https://www.fairmonthotsprings.com/

I will say they are the best Mineral Hot Springs EVER!!!

Time to unplug and relax.

[USA-1]

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

My Bad, I totally missed the No part of that No Mayo. 

LOL, Yes I might just be, WHY..........

I am 43 minutes away from going on PTO and will be offline for the next week in the Canadian Rockies at Fairmont Hot springs.

You can check it out here: https://www.fairmonthotsprings.com/

I will say they are the best Mineral Hot Springs EVER!!!

Time to unplug and relax.

Very nice! Enjoy the time off!!

[Drew Dowdell]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:13 AM, ccap41 said:

That said nothing about Lincoln and being on their own or not. 

Lincoln is separating from Ford more now than it has in decades. 

Yeah, but they're not continuing with Continental in a few years and the MKZ will probably go when the Fusion dies. That makes Lincoln an all SUV brand. 

On 10/4/2019 at 9:45 AM, Robert Hall said:

I enjoy real induction and exhaust noises in a performance car.  Not fake, but not in a daily driver.   It's all about context...

I drove a C 43 AMG Cabrio last week and the exhaust note on that thing is fantastic when the helm gets the "all ahead full" command. 

[USA-1]

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yeah, but they're not continuing with Continental in a few years and the MKZ will probably go when the Fusion dies. That makes Lincoln an all SUV brand. 

I drove a C 43 AMG Cabrio last week and the exhaust note on that thing is fantastic when the helm gets the "all ahead full" command. 

Exactly, and the new Aviator is on the Explorer chassis so not much separation with actual models. Lincoln IS trying to separate from Ford financially as a stand alone company "Lincoln Motor Company", but that's about it.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

Exactly, and the new Aviator is on the Explorer chassis so not much separation with actual models. Lincoln IS trying to separate from Ford financially as a stand alone company "Lincoln Motor Company", but that's about it.

I drove the Aviator and Explorer back to back last week (reviews to come)…. and aside from dimensions they have very very different personalities.  

[USA-1]

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I drove the Aviator and Explorer back to back last week (reviews to come)…. and aside from dimensions they have very very different personalities.  

You're brave to want to drive those with all the suspension and gear shifter problems.

So the Lincoln had the usual bags underneath and wood inside?   Probably like the difference between the Traverse and XT6. You driven both of those back to back yet?

Edited October 9, 2019 by USA-1 Vortec 6.2

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

You're brave to want to drive those with all the suspension and gear shifter problems.

So the Lincoln had the usual bags underneath and wood inside?   Probably like the difference between the Traverse and XT6. You driven both of those back to back yet?

It was at a drive event that Ford was one of the sponsors. They probably brought vehicles that have been gone over.

I'll be driving the XT6 on Thursday along with the Enclave Sport Touring

[USA-1]

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It was at a drive event that Ford was one of the sponsors. They probably brought vehicles that have been gone over.

I'll be driving the XT6 on Thursday along with the Enclave Sport Touring

Oh yeah hopefully they would have gone through those units then. Did you ask them about all the issues? 

XT6 has the new dual clutch AWD, interested to see how it works. Thinking about visiting my buddy at a local Caddy dealer here soon.

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It was at a drive event that Ford was one of the sponsors. They probably brought vehicles that have been gone over.

I'll be driving the XT6 on Thursday along with the Enclave Sport Touring

BTW, I want your job! Sounds fun

Edited October 9, 2019 by USA-1 Vortec 6.2

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

Oh yeah hopefully they would have gone through those units then. Did you ask them about all the issues? 

XT6 has the new dual clutch AWD, interested to see how it works. Thinking about visiting my buddy at a local Caddy dealer here soon.

BTW, I want your job! Sounds fun

It's a lot of fun!

I've tried the dual clutch AWD in the Acadia All-Terrain.  It's unremarkable. It's mostly there to save fuel, so the only time you'd really see any difference is fueling up after a long trip. 

[USA-1]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's a lot of fun!

I've tried the dual clutch AWD in the Acadia All-Terrain.  It's unremarkable. It's mostly there to save fuel, so the only time you'd really see any difference is fueling up after a long trip. 

It can shift all power to front or rear or split it right?

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

It can shift all power to front or rear or split it right?

It can send 100% to the rear and split it right or left.   

[USA-1]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It can send 100% to the rear and split it right or left.   

That's what I thought. Active Handling AWD.