Subaru News: Toyota to Take Bigger Interest in Subaru

[Drew Dowdell]

Toyota is in plans to purchase additional shares of Subaru to raise its stake to over 20% from around 17% today. Subaru in kind will also invest back in Toyota via a similar stock purchase of Toyota. If the deal is approved by Toyota's board, it is a step towards making Subaru a whole owned subsidiary that would create a 'Mega Toyota'.  Toyota recently announced a similar purchase of Suzuki shares to form a new alliance for the Indian market. 

Toyota and Subaru have worked together before on projects such as the Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86 and Subaru for a time built Toyota Camrys at its plant in Indiana.

Toyota sees Subaru as being strong in sport utility vehicles and in all-wheel drive technology. Toyota and Subaru have also announced plans to jointly build a platform for an electric SUV.

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[G. David Felt]

Consolidation is what the auto company needs and this appears to me to be a first step in that direction.

I wonder how it would be viewed here in America, I am sure there are those that would be yelling the Anti-trust crusade against this.

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Consolidation is what the auto company needs and this appears to me to be a first step in that direction.

I wonder how it would be viewed here in America, I am sure there are those that would be yelling the Anti-trust crusade against this.

You can't have anti-trust when you have this many companies competing. 

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, (yes, they're separate), Daimler, BMW, JLR, VW, Mazda, FCA, Mitsubishi, Tesla, Volvo

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You can't have anti-trust when you have this many companies competing. 

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, (yes, they're separate), Daimler, BMW, JLR, VW, Mazda, FCA, Mitsubishi, Tesla, Volvo

True, I was just thinking of the groups that seem to think everything is anti-trust and sue over every possible merger.

[smk4565]

Toyota should just buy 100% of Subaru, FCA, Mazda and Nissan, kill half the brands and consolidate all that and get it over with.

[balthazar]

^ can’t argue against that.

toyoter should buy daimler; they have just enough cash to do it.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ can’t argue against that.

toyoter should buy daimler; they have just enough cash to do it.

There's a culture clash waiting to happen.... 

[riviera74]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ can’t argue against that.

toyoter should buy daimler; they have just enough cash to do it.

Actually, China may be more likely to buy out all these lame brands and possibly clean house just to rationalize the auto industry AND devour all that auto IP without violating any laws or treaties.  Toyota, not so much.  Toyota actually has to listen to shareholders.

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Actually, China may be more likely to buy out all these lame brands and possibly clean house just to rationalize the auto industry AND devour all that auto IP without violating any laws or treaties.  Toyota, not so much.  Toyota actually has to listen to shareholders.

This would make total sense, buy up all the lame ducks, then fold them into the brands they want global and push out the Chinese products while killing off the Asian, European and American brands.

Chinese domination of the world with some backlash.

[smk4565]

China might do that.  I don't see how Subaru and Mazda survive as independents with how expensive self driving and electric car development is.  If Toyota bought both, and utilized the AWD system of Subaru, the sky active engines of Mazda and Toyota hybrids and their own stuff, they can come up with a powertrain they can put all over the place, and have a 4 brand line up.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

...with how expensive [   ] electric car development is.

Pffft- the development is cheap. Less moving parts, less R&D, less assembly labor. It's the vendor battery cost.... and the OEM markup that's expensive.

[USA-1]

Interesting, because I don't see China having that much cash. They manipulate their currency more than Willie Nelson cleans out his pipe, and China's economy is in the dumpster for good reason.

As far as Toyota they'll continue to try to partner with or buy stock in other automakers, it's what they've done for decades, TMC is pretty unoriginal anymore. The "new Supra" is just a BMW Z4 wrapped in Supra sheet metal, and then there's the BRZ/FRS twins that's all Subaru, again minus the sheet metal. No pride in development anymore at Toyota, look how old all of their models are including most Lexus models. There's also the "NUMMI" co-op they had with GM in Freemont, CA back in the 90's where they mainly built the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. I have a buddy from college who worked there and said it was basically Toyota learning from GM on how to better operate in the US market because it's much different from Japan's. They partner with well established auto giants like GM or smaller ones depending on the industry knowledge or technology they can gain from them. Is there an auto manufacturer Toyota hasn't partnered with or tried to at some point? I know there are some, just making a point that the Asian brands including Hyundai/Kia have always copied others in many ways. 

[riviera74]

8 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

Interesting, because I don't see China having that much cash. They manipulate their currency more than Willie Nelson cleans out his pipe, and China's economy is in the dumpster for good reason.

As far as Toyota they'll continue to try to partner with or buy stock in other automakers, it's what they've done for decades, TMC is pretty unoriginal anymore. The "new Supra" is just a BMW Z4 wrapped in Supra sheet metal, and then there's the BRZ/FRS twins that's all Subaru, again minus the sheet metal. No pride in development anymore at Toyota, look how old all of their models are including most Lexus models. There's also the "NUMMI" co-op they had with GM in Freemont, CA back in the 90's where they mainly built the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. I have a buddy from college who worked there and said it was basically Toyota learning from GM on how to better operate in the US market because it's much different from Japan's. They partner with well established auto giants like GM or smaller ones depending on the industry knowledge or technology they can gain from them. Is there an auto manufacturer Toyota hasn't partnered with or tried to at some point? I know there are some, just making a point that the Asian brands including Hyundai/Kia have always copied others in many ways. 

Yes, Toyota and Hyundai/KIA do copy others in terms of CARS and markets.  They did not copy the bad ideas, such as slavish worship of the bottom line and really antagonistic unions (SK aside).  Arguably, Toyota may have the best of both worlds these days from a financial standpoint.  If originality made the kind of cash flow that is heavily desired, Toyota would be in serious trouble.  Then again, Toyota has big market share and a lot of loyal customers since 1978 who will NEVER buy a GM or Ford vehicle again.  Toyota now is what Chevrolet was in 1970: the default choice of (nowadays) FWD appliances.  Especially in this era of leasing dominating the marketplace and 72 month financing, Toyota is in an enviable position and it will probably stay that way for a long time to come. 

As for China, China could still buy out a lot of weak automakers when the next recession hits and still clean house since that government has huge ambitions and nearly unlimited resources to do just that.

[USA-1]

False public perception of Toyota being a "default choice" is just sheeple following the herd. Especially, since the early 2000's when Toyota quality and craftsmanship took a downward turn and hasn't come back. I know people that have have many problems with Toyota vehicles for example the Unintended Acceleration Recall that included over 4 million vehicles that TMC would like all of us to forget, those people will or should NEVER by a Toyota again if they had a clue. I've never owned a Toyota and never will because I don't fall for their false perception of quality. Toyota is the choice of today's "throw away car" nothing that will ever be a Classic car like many 1970's Chevrolet's are today.  

I never said China didn't have "huge ambitions" to buy up what they can, but they also like to STEAL anything they can. China as a country wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now without the U.S.A., sad as it may sound. My point of the country buying certain automakers would come down to the persuasion the US Gov't would have, in that, many of those foreign owned automakers have manf. plants here in the US that own the land the plants sit on. Guaranteed our Gov't will hold up that transaction because those automakers have US laws to abide by when it comes to more US soil being sold to a communist, hostile country like China.  

[USA-1]

9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Yes, Toyota and Hyundai/KIA do copy others in terms of CARS and markets.  They did not copy the bad ideas, such as slavish worship of the bottom line and really antagonistic unions (SK aside).  Arguably, Toyota may have the best of both worlds these days from a financial standpoint.  If originality made the kind of cash flow that is heavily desired, Toyota would be in serious trouble.  Then again, Toyota has big market share and a lot of loyal customers since 1978 who will NEVER buy a GM or Ford vehicle again.  Toyota now is what Chevrolet was in 1970: the default choice of (nowadays) FWD appliances.  Especially in this era of leasing dominating the marketplace and 72 month financing, Toyota is in an enviable position and it will probably stay that way for a long time to come. 

As for China, China could still buy out a lot of weak automakers when the next recession hits and still clean house since that government has huge ambitions and nearly unlimited resources to do just that.

False public perception of Toyota being a "default choice" is just Sheeple following the herd. Especially, since the early 2000's when Toyota quality and craftsmanship took a downward turn and hasn't come back. I know people who have had many problems with Toyota vehicles one for example the huge "Unintended Acceleration" Recall that included over 4 million vehicles that TMC would like all of us to forget, those people will or should NEVER buy a Toyota again if they had a clue. I've never owned a Toyota and never will because I don't fall for their false perception of quality. Toyota is the choice of today's "throw away car" nothing that will ever be a Classic car like many 1970's Chevrolet's are today.  

I never said China didn't have "huge ambitions" to buy up what they can, but they also like to STEAL anything they can. China as a country wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now without the U.S.A., sad as it may sound. My point of the country buying certain automakers would come down to the persuasion the U.S. Gov't would have, in that, many of those foreign owned automakers have manf. plants here in the U.S. that own the land the plants sit on. Guaranteed the U.S. Gov't will hold up that transaction because those automakers have laws to abide by when it comes to more U.S. soil being sold to a communist, hostile country like China.

[daves87rs]

You guys are quick to glutton and band all the the brands together- they need to just die on their own. There is nothing wrong with teaming up-that is the future. Companies like Mazda or Ford would simply just go out of business, and what little successful products they have other companies can just pick the bones of. I also expect China to get into the cheap car game very soon, putting many companies on both notice and out of business (and we wonder why GM is fighting the UAW).

 

I’ve said it before, and will say it again-the day of the car (or truck) is dying...you’ll NEVER see the same sales number of a few years ago. With a society that can bring everything to your door, there is no longer a needed expense for a vehicle. And with the current price, student debt, and upcoming recession-who can blame them? Times are going to change ...more than folks expect......

Over half the companies you see now will either be gone (or bought by China to brand image their cheap cars).  Vehicles are going the same way as brick and mortar retail........

[balthazar]

Respectively, I don’t think so, Tim. If mitshu could go thru numerous scandalous revelations on corporate negligence and still be selling vehicles (somehow), I don’t see cause for a majority to ‘simply go out of business’. Especially Ford (we know you hate the Co.). 

[USA-1]

18 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

You guys are quick to glutton and band all the the brands together- they need to just die on their own. There is nothing wrong with teaming up-that is the future. Companies like Mazda or Ford would simply just go out of business, and what little successful products they have other companies can just pick the bones of. I also expect China to get into the cheap car game very soon, putting many companies on both notice and out of business (and we wonder why GM is fighting the UAW).

 

I’ve said it before, and will say it again-the day of the car (or truck) is dying...you’ll NEVER see the same sales number of a few years ago. With a society that can bring everything to your door, there is no longer a needed expense for a vehicle. And with the current price, student debt, and upcoming recession-who can blame them? Times are going to change ...more than folks expect......

Over half the companies you see now will either be gone (or bought by China to brand image their cheap cars).  Vehicles are going the same way as brick and mortar retail........

China has already tried their hand at car manufacturing and failed miserably, so they would definitely have to lie, cheat and steal their way in, like usual. The cheap junk cars the Chinese tried to build couldn't pass US DOT and prob never will. South Korean cars aren't much better, DOT let things slide with Hyundai and Kia back when they starting selling in the U.S. in the mid 80's that would never fly today. My cousin had an '88 Hyundai Excel that was the biggest POS ever made and very unsafe, multiple issues mainly with the brakes and just a horrible build quality. Hyundai definitely didn't "Excel" at anything then and still really don't today unless they copy other manufacturers designs, too bad US DOT didn't cut them out back then.

No, there's nothing wrong with Auto Manufacturers teaming up, but it's all that Toyota really does anymore. I know GM and Honda have recently teamed up on the Hydrogen Fuel Cells that Honda can bring to the table and the EV/Hybrid tech GM has to bring as well, but that's technology sharing, not buying another manufacturer's chassis and powertrain to put your sheet metal on like Toyota loves to do. I mean Toyota should at least have enough pride to put their own powertrain in it, but then again TMC obviously doesn't have a decent powertrain that's not 10+ years old so... 

[daves87rs]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Respectively, I don’t think so, Tim. If mitshu could go thru numerous scandalous revelations on corporate negligence and still be selling vehicles (somehow), I don’t see cause for a majority to ‘simply go out of business’. Especially Ford (we know you hate the Co.). 

I don't hate Ford...(not sure where you got that) Not sure how my name is Tim either... ? 

And while my revolation is a bit on the dark side I admit (Hey, I don't like it either)

I want to know where they are going to go?

I chose Ford only as an example- the only thing holding their head above water right now is the F-150.

The Explorer is nearly a failed launch- and I'm not so sure about the Escape.

And as much as I don't like the girly looking Escape- I don't  want it to fail.

This is putting some serious pressure on the Bronco to be a major success...

Come on, don't hate the player, hate the game..... ? 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by daves87rs

[riviera74]

3 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

China has already tried their hand at car manufacturing and failed miserably, so they would definitely have to lie, cheat and steal their way in, like usual. The cheap junk cars the Chinese tried to build couldn't pass US DOT and prob never will. South Korean cars aren't much better, DOT let things slide with Hyundai and Kia back when they starting selling in the U.S. in the mid 80's that would never fly today. My cousin had an '88 Hyundai Excel that was the biggest POS ever made and very unsafe, multiple issues mainly with the brakes and just a horrible build quality. Hyundai definitely didn't "Excel" at anything then and still really don't today unless they copy other manufacturers designs, too bad US DOT didn't cut them out back then.

No, there's nothing wrong with Auto Manufacturers teaming up, but it's all that Toyota really does anymore. I know GM and Honda have recently teamed up on the Hydrogen Fuel Cells that Honda can bring to the table and the EV/Hybrid tech GM has to bring as well, but that's technology sharing, not buying another manufacturer's chassis and powertrain to put your sheet metal on like Toyota loves to do. I mean Toyota should at least have enough pride to put their own powertrain in it, but then again TMC obviously doesn't have a decent powertrain that's not 10+ years old so... 

Too bad Hyundai/KIA offered a ten-year warranty in 2001 and still have it to this day.  Too bad GM and Ford did not try to come close to matching that.  Hyundai came a long way from the late 80s and the 90s, where it made no sense to buy anything they were selling.  There are very few Hyundais and KIAs from before 2001 on the road these days, mostly because of awful sales.

As for Toyota, there is no compelling reason to buy one of those vehicles anymore that you cannot get from another automaker at either a better value or with more/better features in most cases.

In the next global recession, China will probably find a way to buy out the weaker auto nameplates for pennies on the dollar and do what they please, either in the CDM or worldwide.  China is the the world's biggest car market now.

[daves87rs]

3 hours ago, USA-1 Vortec 6.2 said:

China has already tried their hand at car manufacturing and failed miserably, so they would definitely have to lie, cheat and steal their way in, like usual. The cheap junk cars the Chinese tried to build couldn't pass US DOT and prob never will. South Korean cars aren't much better, DOT let things slide with Hyundai and Kia back when they starting selling in the U.S. in the mid 80's that would never fly today. My cousin had an '88 Hyundai Excel that was the biggest POS ever made and very unsafe, multiple issues mainly with the brakes and just a horrible build quality. Hyundai definitely didn't "Excel" at anything then and still really don't today unless they copy other manufacturers designs, too bad US DOT didn't cut them out back then.

No, there's nothing wrong with Auto Manufacturers teaming up, but it's all that Toyota really does anymore. I know GM and Honda have recently teamed up on the Hydrogen Fuel Cells that Honda can bring to the table and the EV/Hybrid tech GM has to bring as well, but that's technology sharing, not buying another manufacturer's chassis and powertrain to put your sheet metal on like Toyota loves to do. I mean Toyota should at least have enough pride to put their own powertrain in it, but then again TMC obviously doesn't have a decent powertrain that's not 10+ years old so... 

Considering I deal with China (and the rest of the world) on a daily basis, I would say it is a dated theory now. The rest of the world is catching up to us fast. Not perfect, but they are getting there...

 I do hear you though. Sometimes it just doesn't hurt though. Me happy that FCA is not playing around too much with the Dodge twins and kinda Jeep. (though that baby Jeep is not bad. ? ) I think EV is going to bring everyone's tech together....

[USA-1]

53 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Considering I deal with China (and the rest of the world) on a daily basis, I would say it is a dated theory now. The rest of the world is catching up to us fast. Not perfect, but they are getting there...

 I do hear you though. Sometimes it just doesn't hurt though. Me happy that FCA is not playing around too much with the Dodge twins and kinda Jeep. (though that baby Jeep is not bad. ? ) I think EV is going to bring everyone's tech together....

The rest of the world is catching up to us by riding on our gigantic coat tail, because our past selfish or clueless politicians and administrations have let them.  

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Too bad Hyundai/KIA offered a ten-year warranty in 2001 and still have it to this day.  Too bad GM and Ford did not try to come close to matching that.  Hyundai came a long way from the late 80s and the 90s, where it made no sense to buy anything they were selling.  There are very few Hyundais and KIAs from before 2001 on the road these days, mostly because of awful sales.

As for Toyota, there is no compelling reason to buy one of those vehicles anymore that you cannot get from another automaker at either a better value or with more/better features in most cases.

In the next global recession, China will probably find a way to buy out the weaker auto nameplates for pennies on the dollar and do what they please, either in the CDM or worldwide.  China is the the world's biggest car market now.

If people actually read the fine print of the 10yr./100k mi. Hyundai warranty they would see certain important parts aren't included so it's not a true bumper to bumper, and it's not transferable to the next owner(s) where it drops significantly in yrs./mileage coverage. GM on the other hand has 3yr./36k mi. to 4yr. 50k mi. bumper to bumper and a 5yr./60k mi. 6yr./70k mi. powertrain warranty that is transferable to the next owner(s). Hyundai knows that most people don't keep a vehicle for 10yrs. or even 100k mi. and would lose their @sses with warranty work if they did, but the typical throw away car buyer will take the long warranty bait on a cheap car make that isn't known for being reliable at all. 2001 or older Hyundai's or KIA's are in the junk yard.

I realize that China is the largest car market now because more and more of the billions of Chinese are driving and clouding the country out with smog because their cheap emissions equipment is very ineffective on most of their vehicles, no real industry standards are set. There are many billionaire investors in China that could possibly buy struggling car manufacturers, but the country as a whole is in bad shape right now, and many economic analysts say China is in a recession right now or very close to one, but they won't admit it to the rest of the world for fear of further economic woes.