Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[balthazar]

And I'm sure that's written in very large lettering on the walls in the BMW EV Planning Department.

[ocnblu]

"EV Planning Department"  LOL

[balthazar]

^ To date; not much evidence there's any such thing at BMW.

[Robert Hall]

The i3 and i8 haven't been large scale hits....seems like they are lagging behind in the EV game.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Understate, much?

[riviera74]

16 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

The i3 and i8 haven't been large scale hits....seems like they are lagging behind in the EV game.

Who wants to buy a BMW BEV?

[ocnblu]

6 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Who wants to buy a BMW BEV?

No one

[Robert Hall]

Will be interesting to see what the Germans product mix looks like with regards to BEVs in 5, 10 years...

[G. David Felt]

Interesting video feed that says VW and Mercedes Benz will be challenging Tesla by the end of this year since they are taking orders for long range EVs.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/02/22/tesla-competition-growing-but-automakers-market-share-remains-strong.html?__source=sharebar%7Cemail&par=sharebar

[ccap41]

Everybody has been "about to challenge Tesla" for five years now. 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Everybody has been "about to challenge Tesla" for five years now. 

Agreed and too true. Until the other OEMs actually have quantity of long range EVs on the lots to sell. This is just News Pipe Dream. 

[ccap41]

The one I thought would really give it to Tesla has piss-poor range in comparison, Taycan. 

[riviera74]

20 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Agreed and too true. Until the other OEMs actually have quantity of long range EVs on the lots to sell. This is just News Pipe Dream. 

So when will GM put (more) EVs out on dealer lots?  How will they sell the successors to the Bolt and the Volt to customers?

[G. David Felt]

1 minute ago, riviera74 said:

So when will GM put (more) EVs out on dealer lots?  How will they sell the successors to the Bolt and the Volt to customers?

Supposedly the preview of their BEV3 platform is to be shown in March. Then we have the Cadillac EV in April and the Hummer by GMC in May. So we should finally be getting some idea and images of what GM is working on for release late 2020 to early 2021.

[G. David Felt]

Here is a great overview of all the history for the Detroit-Hamtramck plant. Very Cool

https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-facilities/gm-usa-facilities/gm-detroit-hamtramck-plant/

 

[G. David Felt]

Some very exciting EV news:

Polestar has shown off their EV Car concept that they say is close to production. I say it is very pleasing to see.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/25/polestar-precept-concept-debuts-geneva/

BMW will show off their i4 concept touring sedan looking very production ready at the Geneva auto show.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/25/bmw-concept-i4-electric-car-geneva-motor-show/

VW as they do with their performance ICE auto's by using the GTI designation had already stated there would be a GTX version of their EV's for the ID line. Now they have moved another step to say their will use their F1 EV racing tech to offer an R Performance ID that will be above the GTX and regular EV lines of ID auto's.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/24/vw-id-performance-r-electric-cars/

Due to Battery bottlenecks in the supply chain from LG, Audi has halted e-Tron production for a few weeks to get these issues sorted out. The bigger news is that the e-Tron will only live 1 generation as VW has decided to follow BMW and NOT have a dedicated EV name line, but rather incorporate EV's into their existing Auto lineup allowing for ICE/Hybrid/EVs to exist in the same family name. Get ready for a Family of Q5e, Q7e, S7e, S8e, RSe, RS 7e, etc.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/24/audi-pauses-etron-production/

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/21/audi-e-tron-name-la-auto-show/

Chevrolet launches their first of many EVs in the China Market. Chevrolet Menlo is the first of many EVs to launch in China. Has very much a Blazer vibe to me. This is on a stretched BEV2 platform which is from the BOLT.

More details in the story, but to quote them: 

They start with price, which ranges from the U.S. equivalent of around $22,754 to $25,600, after factoring in the generous subsidies available in China’s capital city for new energy vehicles. That compares favorably to the Chevy Bolt, the brand's American EV, which starts at $35,620 after the federal tax credit for electric vehicles, which is now down to $1,875 for GM electric vehicles. There will be four trim levels offered.

Chevy says the Menlo offers 110 kW of maximum output, or 147 horsepower, and 258 pound-feet of torque. For reference, the Bolt EV's motor makes 150 kW, or 200 horsepower with 266 pound-feet of torque. It reportedly shares the same new-generation electric drive system as the all-electric Buick Velite 6, with a 52.5 kWh battery pack. Chevy says it consumes 13.1 kWh of electricity per 62 miles, good for a range of 410 kilometers (254 miles) on the New European Driving Cycle. The battery can be charged to 80% of capacity in 40 minutes with a DC fast charger, and there driving modes and three energy recovery modes.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/23/chevy-menlo-specs-rough-china-sales/

[balthazar]

Prediction : polestar EV above will be $90K. And no one will buy it.
BMW will be at minimum of a $25K premium over the nearest IC-sized sedan. And no one will buy it.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Prediction : polestar EV above will be $90K. And no one will buy it.
BMW will be at minimum of a $25K premium over the nearest IC-sized sedan. And no one will buy it.

I expect them to sell since for China, Polestar is a local builder of EVs only and with the increase every year of EVs in China that are required, they will sell them. BMW too, having a family looking EV sitting next to the Hybrid and an ICE. They will reduce ICE sales as the percentage of EVs required goes up by China. Europe also having yearly increase in EVs sold now till 2030 when all new ICE auto's will be banned will make them happen. 

We will watch how they sell here. I expect them to sell at first in small numbers on the west coast and eventually catch on and increase.

[ccap41]

36 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Prediction : polestar EV above will be $90K. And no one will buy it.
BMW will be at minimum of a $25K premium over the nearest IC-sized sedan. And no one will buy it.

Yup. they are just nowhere near the fuel savings with the premiums manufacturers are asking. 

SAVE $1500 a year in fuel!!

*spends $20,000 more on vehicle*

[Robert Hall]

That Chevy Menlo looks sharp, better than the dumpy Bolt.  Alas, if they sold it here it would be $50k.

[balthazar]

50 minutes ago, dfelt said:

They will reduce ICE sales as the percentage of EVs required goes up by China. Europe also having yearly increase in EVs sold now till 2030 when all new ICE auto's will be banned will make them happen. 

Wonder what Chinese Gov't plan is when EV sales lag hard behind IC, yet they issued a random arbitrary end date for IC sales that comes up far too fast for consumers. Maybe they have a plan to subsidize EV pricing so the consumer at large can afford an EV.

I mean; the Gov't can say whatever they want, but I don't believe they can force an individual to buy a car they don't want/can't afford.

I believe these Grand Declarations of Banishment will be post phoned more than once as they get closer & closer.

Edited February 25, 2020 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Wonder what Chinese Gov't plan is when EV sales lag hard behind IC, yet they issued a random arbitrary end date for IC sales that comes up far too fast for consumers. Maybe they have a plan to subsidize EV pricing so the consumer at large can afford an EV.

I mean; the Gov't can say whatever they want, but I don't believe they can force an individual to buy a car they don't want/can't afford. 

I assume they will set the prices of EVs to be comparable to ICE vehicles then phase out ICE vehicles.  Thus EV sales..

[balthazar]

^ That makes no sense. What do you mean 'set'? EVs are sold right now at minimal LOSS, how are they going to drop the prices and be okee-dokie all of a sudden? Especially if that's in only like 10 years?

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Wonder what Chinese Gov't plan is when EV sales lag hard behind IC, yet they issued a random arbitrary end date for IC sales that comes up far too fast for consumers. Maybe they have a plan to subsidize EV pricing so the consumer at large can afford an EV.

I mean; the Gov't can say whatever they want, but I don't believe they can force an individual to buy a car they don't want/can't afford.

I believe these Grand Declarations of Banishment will be post phoned more than once as they get closer & closer.

Communist Dictators can and will get what they want. Chinese are used to following what ever the Gov says compared to here where you have the freedom to buy what you want.

Europe could see push back, but they also could balance it to force people into EVs by taxing the ICE higher to make it unattractive for anyone but the rich.

Example is that the Netherlands and UK have decided to keep high rebates in place to move people to Electric auto's to meet the 2030 ban on selling New ICE auto's.

https://www.coinspeaker.com/tesla-sales-netherlands-ev/

Germany is taking their own path after failing to have 1 million EVs on the roads of Germany by 2020. Germany will use $2.4 billion to subsidize EV purchases. This will be achieved by adding a 1 cent tax per liter to all gas and diesel fuel sold. This will help to allow rebates for EV purchases and help pay for installation at those same gas stations of EV Rapid Chargers.

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/15/tbillion-plan-germans-buy-ev/ 

2020 seems to be the year that industry watchers say to watch for change as China and Europe is moving much faster than the US in moving to EVs from light duty cars to medium duty trucks and even heavy duty public buses. Global auto sales of EV's made 7% of all auto's sold with the bulk being China and Europe.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/2020-to-be-a-crucial-year-for-evs%3A-models-to-watch-out-for-2020-01-22

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ That makes no sense. What do you mean 'set'? EVs are sold right now at minimal LOSS, how are they going to drop the prices and be okee-dokie all of a sudden? Especially if that's in only like 10 years?

Go figure, but Chevrolet Menlo is priced lower than the ICE equal Chevrolet's sold in China. One has to assume that with quantity comes lower cost eventually.

Plus China like Germany has set aside billions as rebates for buying EVs.

[Robert Hall]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ That makes no sense. What do you mean 'set'? EVs are sold right now at minimal LOSS, how are they going to drop the prices and be okee-dokie all of a sudden? Especially if that's in only like 10 years?

China is a communist country.  Not a market economy., I'd assume the government can set prices to whatever they want...

Edited February 25, 2020 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

Seems NTSB has found Tesla AT FAULT for the death in 2018 of a Tesla X owner who was playing games while the autopilot was engaged.  With little oversight and a complete disregard for safety warnings / safe guards, Tesla is at fault for the death of the man. The chairman points to how the rest of the auto industry had incorporated safety features, but Tesla ignored them.

It has been 881 days since NTSB told Tesla to incorporate safety measures into their Autopilot system and they have still ignored the NTSB.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/25/tesla-autopilot-walter-huang-crash-ntsb-hearing/

[ocnblu]

Imagine if a straight man was TOLD by his government that he could only be romantically involved with/marry another man.  That is about how well it will work, forcing people into EVs.

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

China is a communist country.  Not a market economy., I'd assume the government can set prices to whatever they want...

Gov't subsidizing then. I see the vast majority of Chinese car makers are state-owned, which when you think about it; is very weird. They're competing against themselves.

China's 2018 percentage of plug-in vehicles "on the road" is still under 1%.

Edited February 26, 2020 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

16 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Imagine if a straight man was TOLD by his government that he could only be romantically involved with/marry another man.  That is about how well it will work, forcing people into EVs.

However...the guvment DOES tell homosexuals that they cant marry. 

Forget about a religious marriage...that is a different discussion...

Im talking about a legal government document that does not recognize same sex unions...

The thing is...Blu.. and you could downvote because that is what you will do...

POLLUTION

You could try to make a case for batteries being bad for the environment...

BUT...

Ive said this before...keep an internal combustion engine car running without proper ventilation and see how long you will live.

Now...with proper ventilation...where does that shyte go?

In the atmosphere, right?

Well....BECAUSE of DENIAL with the internal combustion engine being bad for the air that we breath...and every other living thing on this planet...governments are FORCING us to change our habits because WE will NOT do it WILLFULLY.

If you give me the money argument...

Ill just tell you there is NO amount of money in ANY universe, real or imagined, that puts a value on the damned planet we ALL live in!!!

If you cant see that...Im sorry. 

 

 

[ocnblu]

Apology accepted 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Gov't subsidizing then. I see the vast majority of Chinese car makers are state-owned, which when you think about it; is very weird. They're competing against themselves.

China's 2018 percentage of plug-in vehicles "on the road" is still under 1%.

Communist economics were radically dialed back since 1978.  The Communists in China still run the government.

As for demand for EVs, no one knows how many will sell this year or next year or 10 years from now.  Right now, yes it is less than 1%.  Sounds like a lot of the rest of the world.  Then again, oil prices are only about $55/barrel now.  The GM EV1 failed because oil prices were $10/barrel back in the late 1990s.  Call me when oil prices approach $200/barrel, then show me EV sales at that point.

[oldshurst442]

@ ANYBODY that wants to discuss this. But it is directed towards @ocnblu if he feels like discussing this. 

Yeah...it was either a downvote or a laughy thingy...

MAYBE YOU THINK THIS POST WILL BE LONG...

BUT LETS DISCUSS... IT IS AN AUTOMOTIVE FORUM AFTER ALL...  UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WANNA TREAT THIS FORUM LIKE THE SUNDAY FUNNIES...

But I wanna know why you feel like laughing when in fact...air pollution is a real phoquing problem on our planet...

We are 7 billion plus humans and by 2050...its projected we will be 10 billion.  

I mean...in 1985 there was 4.5 billion or so souls around. In 1960 3 billion and in 1970 3.7 billion.

We have doubled our population from the height of the muscle car era.  

Serious talk now...  Dont laugh.  Because you are so against EVs and the government forcing us to buy them...but you NEVER seem to wanna discuss it.

This is real serious shyte...

Los Angeles air was unbreathable several times a year then and it got worse and then CAFE came about and I KNOW you are against that too...but Los Angeles air is better today?  Maybe?

Because I really dont how you feels about Los Angeles air pollution then and now.  Are you in denial it was bad for LA then but its better now?

What is it that bothers you about this whole thing? You laugh at us for it or you downvote, but you never seem to discuss it. 

Cars then were huge and got huge-ier.  Engines in 1970 in the North America were just about at the peak of horsepower and torque and got the shyttiest of gas mileage coupled with even shyttier exhaust pollution.

  Do you deny that also?

Where Im going with this.

Beijing today is where Los Angeles was.   The 3rd world that was then is starting to become the 1st world today.

Do you deny that Europe was not economically sound in the 1970s?

Asia?

Do you deny that these places today enjoy the same economic success that we had in North America in the 1970s?

Imagine what shape the planet would be in today if the whole damned planet drove the behemoths that we had during the 1960s and early 1970s (BEFORE the government took our fun away)?

Do you deny that the planet would be in a very shytty place today had it NOT been for all that catalytic converter stuff and downsizng of our engines and cars? 

Yes the party was over and the fun continues to be sucked right out...

But you deny that we need to change?

What is YOUR solution?

Because quite honestly...in a short while...we will be 8 billion people.  And yes...we will continue using gasoline and oil for other stuff...but...at least...can we NOT use it for our daily needs for transportation?

I mean...is it soooooo phoquing horrible to wean off of gasoline for our daily driven vehicles?

Old car batteries could be recycled in usage for powering our commercial industries when they are no longer viable  for cars. That kind of thinking could ease off the power grid. Yes. Yes. Recharging the cars will obviously put pressure on the power grid.

Ill ask you this....

Aint America about INNOVATION?

When Trump says Make America Great Again, in what way did he mean it as and how did his voters interpret it?

Because if you tell me that batteries are not gonna work or batteries are pollutants as well...

Well... STOP WITH THE BULSHYTE ARGUMENTS and START INNOVATING? (yes question mark because some Americans have become too phoquing complacent in their big fat ass (literally|) ways and just whine and bitch but do NOTHING about it...but also bitch about how good the good 'ole days were)

The thing is...this is the way the PLANET wants it to be. There are some that DONT want change but others want change.  

PHOQUE IT!!!

FIND PHOQUING SOLUTIONS!!!

Because the internal combustion engine is NOT the solution for the next 100 years!!! Whether you want to believe it or not!!!

Whether you like it or not, It WAS the solution 100 years ago. The planet is no longer where it was a decade ago, let alone 100 years ago...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

^ What is the specific scientifically quantified contribution by humans to climate change?
[Your answer must include a numeric value.]

[oldshurst442]

Talking about cars, engines and the crap that cars spew.

Not about humans.

Point being...

More humans on the planet...especially in the industrialized areas having jobs and therefore money to consume. To consume cars. 

Point being, more areas of our planet are being "developed".   Developped to consume.  From being 3rd world and no industry to speak of, to becoming 1st world and therefore "civilized"  to  be able to become consumers in buying that brand new shiny  red car.  And we capitalists ( in the automotive context) are making sure every bloody one of us has a job and credit to buy or lease a brand new shiny red vehicle to get us from point A to point B and since our population is growing, especially in these new industrialized worlds, (yes, I understand that in the US and Canada we are experiencing low birth rates, but we are accepting more and more immigrants from Trump's own words, the shythole countries, and those countries seem to be the ones growing the most, anyways, you get the idea because I just know someone will try to deflect...from the fact that there are more and more humans all across the planet that have the resources to buy brand new shiny red cars...

Point being, the population is growing at a very high rate, as now, we are at a stage of our population growth rate that multiplies in compound numbers just BECAUSE of the sheer size of our population...  

Point being, BECAUSE of the sheer size of our population, the ownership of vehicles will also  grow comparably,...relatively speaking...and THAT is where my point is being made...

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Imagine if a straight man was TOLD by his government that he could only be romantically involved with/marry another man.  That is about how well it will work, forcing people into EVs.

Yea, Right Bucko, just like the Gov trying to force men to marry woman when they are already wired for men to men. The same could be said for the Woman side of the fence.

End result is the GOV is NOT forcing you to buy an EV, but they are giving incentives up to a point to help those that WANT TO take care of the Planet for Themselves, Their Children, Grand Children, etc. 

There is that old saying that you do not get something for nothing. Been proven, Humans are consuming and hurting the planet. As such we have to change our habits. Some places (CHINA) will force the issue fast, Some places (EUROPE) will phase it in and then you have ignorant incompetent leadership that allows us to fall behind the rest of the world.

Not looking good for the US in regards to Technology leadership, Alternative Energy, Stewardship of the resources / planet we live on. We need competent youthful leadership looking down the road to Rebuild America and not Static Boomer Incompetence.

Go Ahead, Down Vote me. Fact is, some of US care about you and everyone else and know we need to change habits with recycling, cleaner air, alternative ways to move about.

Change is Hard

Change is Good

Change is the Future

[oldshurst442]

So...are we gonna discuss why the internal combustion engine is no longer a solution for the planet's growing population and the need for mobility or are we gonna try to deflect and look for problems in the questions I pose?

Because an argument or discussion and finding solutions  is NOT about looking to discredit the QUESTION being asked...but interesting ideas come about and possible solutions are made by actual discourse. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 Well said, @ocnblu hates EVs but never discusses them or offers alternatives.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric.html

The tools on the home page allows you to put in todays modern EPA mileage for an EV and ICE and compare costs and Emissions and even in a Coal \ Natural gas electrical supplied area, EVs are cheaper and cleaner than ICE.

Outstanding data on the real sales numbers of EV's / Hybrids

http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/

While this was the projection published in May 2019 about 2019 EV sales, we will get a solid look at 2019 and projections for 2020 around May 2020.

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2019

ACCORDING TO THE DATA

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Gov't subsidizing then. I see the vast majority of Chinese car makers are state-owned, which when you think about it; is very weird. They're competing against themselves.

China's 2018 percentage of plug-in vehicles "on the road" is still under 1%.

China sales of EVs is greater than under 1% as you quote.

https://insideevs.com/news/394229/plugin-electric-car-sales-china-2019/

6.8% of all auto sales in China in 2019 were EV's or plug in Hybrids where it was 4.2% in 2018.

This holds true across multiple sites using Statistica Data and Government supplied registration data.

https://wattev2buy.com/global-ev-sales/china-ev-sales/

So with almost 7% of Auto's sold in China being EVs, that would imply that even with a down economy, we are looking at more EVs / plug in Hybrids sold than people realize.

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

So...are we gonna discuss why the internal combustion engine is no longer a solution for the planet's growing population and the need for mobility or are we gonna try to deflect and look for problems in the questions I pose?

Because an argument or discussion and finding solutions  is NOT about looking to discredit the QUESTION being asked...but interesting ideas come about and possible solutions are made by actual discourse. 

I actually think that people are wanting to go with less maintenance EVs, but due to the lack of style / size options people are holding off and for those that cannot hold off, they are buying new ICE or Leasing ICE to get around for now.

Solid State batteries where you have 4 to 10 times the power density of Li batteries is the key to light weight and longer range. Once you have full size Pickups / SUVs out we will see more people change leaving behind ICE and trips to the gas station over plugging in over night to top off their battery pack.

Change is Scary for some while other embrace it. LA had Terrible Air Quality almost year round. Having relative in the Greater LA area, summer trips were done each year and the haze was terrible compared to now with clear sky's that allow one to see the mountains again.

As such, alternatives such as Hydrogen and EVs / Plugin Hybrids is the answer.

[balthazar]

Quote

China sales of EVs is greater than under 1%...

That was not the stat I quoted tho.
- - - - -

Quote

are we gonna discuss why the internal combustion engine is no longer a solution for the planet's growing population

Government entities are the absolute worst in predicting and enforcing widespread change. They continually and repeatedly made colossal blunders, then do it all again. In my opinion, it is dangerous... or at least self-defeating to look to Gov't for the solution, specifically; end dates. I do not partake in that religion.

It has to be organic to be successful long-term. Government gophers never grasp that concept of nature.

Edited February 26, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That was not the stat I quoted tho.

You said "China's 2018 percentage of plug-in vehicles "on the road" is still under 1%.". According to the statistics, sales would equal on the road as I cannot fathom why one would buy an auto and never drive it.sales show that 4.2% of auto sales in 2018 were EVs / plug-in hybrids. 

Does that not make them on the road? ?

Just wanting to understand your thinking. Thank you

[balthazar]

Not my thinking; their statistic.

Think 'registered'.

[ocnblu]

olds is asking me to give a solution to a made-up "problem".  why do i need to go there.  "corporate average fuel economy", does that necessarily equate to air quality, i thought emissions and fuel efficiency were different.  linked, but only to a point.  why must cars be scapegoated, when there are so many sources of "pollution".  i am not going to support EV when the sacrifices far outweigh the benefits.  end of story.  stop tryna change me and billions of my compatriots.

dfelt touts sales percentages of EV over a short period of time... like it's the first time cars have been sold.  it is beyond comprehension to me that he forgets the hundreds of millions of internal combustion vehicles that are being driven... daily... and have been for their lifespan to date.  and the brand new ones being sought, desired and bought daily.  boggling.  one could say, troubling for his state of mind if it weren't so entertaining.  and yet the dino juice flows through a big ol' hose to his escalade and trailblazer ss.  his wife needs to buy a chevy bolt for her daily and keep the trailblazer for the weekend... if the felts truly "cared" about Mother Earth, it would happen.  and yet it hasn't.  they come in pretty colors. forget about the white dash for one second and do your duty.

being called "bucko" is a very serious accusation.  one which i do not take lightly.

we should all of us, plant a tree.  that would help our world more than buying an EV.  stop fooling yourselves.

[oldshurst442]

27 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

olds is asking me to give a solution to a made-up "problem".

Made up problem?

YOU ACCUSE ME OF NOT KNOWING WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, YET HERE YOU ARE, WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF...EIITHER, STATING THAT CARS DO NOT POLLUTE.

27 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

  i am not going to support EV when the sacrifices far outweigh the benefits

Nah...that is just you having an uninformed opinion. An opinion NOT based on facts or truths. But piss poor judgement.

In any case. THIS is why DISCOURSE is good. 

TEACH me.  LETS DISCUSS.

But nope. You are the one to be closed minded. Open yourself up to me.

27 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

top tryna change me and billions of my compatriots.

Well...YOU are the one that wants to CHANGE me.  With the ironic and moronic way of crying and whining WITHOUT discussing but WHINING and CRYING about it of how I wanna change you. 

Well...CHANGE me. 

TEACH me.  

SHOW me how wrong I am.

No! NOT by telling me others are continuing to do what they have always done. 

(I GOT REBUTTALS FOR EVERY NONSENSICAL SHYT YOU ARE YOUR ILK SPEW.)

But DISCUSS with me the HOW with TRUTH and NOT with SELFISH reasons....

This is the hypocrisy of YOUR kind and ILK.

YOU and YOUR ILK  spew that line like a horny John on a hooker's face.  

But I know why you dont wanna discuss things. You dont have a leg to stay on.

Your first sentence...

27 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

to a made-up "problem".

tells me all I need to know.

My dad once told me to never argue and discuss things with ignorant people. Its best you argue with a wall...

Ever hear THAT cliche Blu?

But you are NOT ignorant.   Just selfish.

PS: I aint tryna change you. 

The thing is, YOU dont want ANYBODY else to change the way we do things on planet earth. 

YOU want the status quo...and THAT in effect means YOU want to change the other billions of folk that want to change NOT to change.

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

45 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Made up problem?

YOU ACCUSE ME OF NOT KNOWING WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, YET HERE YOU ARE, WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF...EIITHER, STATING THAT CARS DO NOT POLLUTE.

Nah...that is just you having an uninformed opinion. An opinion NOT based on facts or truths. But piss poor judgement.

 

 

Dude, it's futile arguing with them...they will never change their minds.   Best to just agree to disagree and move on.    The US is full of anti-science people, arguing with them is futile.    

Edited February 26, 2020 by Robert Hall

[ykX]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Government entities are the absolute worst in predicting and enforcing widespread change. They continually and repeatedly made colossal blunders, then do it all again. In my opinion, it is dangerous... or at least self-defeating to look to Gov't for the solution, specifically; end dates. I do not partake in that religion.

It has to be organic to be successful long-term. Government gophers never grasp that concept of nature.

While in general I do agree with you, however  if it wouldn't be for the government regulations we wouldn't have cars today with seat belts, air bags and emission control.   

I think maybe government instead of giving incentives for individual EV purchases, should invest that money into making EV friendly infrastructure, same as they invest into other infrastructure projects.

I think it will contribute much more to the increased use of EVs than individual discounts.  

EVs will be the future eventually for a simple reason (even disregarding environmental impact) that they are much more efficient, they require substantially less maintenance, and they more future proof than ICE cars, as Tesla has shown.   We are still in the beginning of the transfer process but it is inevitable.

Edited February 26, 2020 by ykX

[ccap41]

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

and yet the dino juice flows through a big ol' hose to his escalade and trailblazer ss

[balthazar]

The hallmark of the scientific method is that nothing is ever ‘proven’, only supported by evidence, and is always open to discussion/argument. 

Nothing is more anti-science than blindly accepting a specific theory as empirical and final.

Let me leave this right here: Pluto.

[ykX]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

The hallmark of the scientific method is that nothing is ever ‘proven’, only supported by evidence, and is always open to discussion/argument. 

Nothing is more anti-science than blindly accepting a specific theory as empirical and final.

Let me leave this right here: Pluto.

If you are talking about environment and global warming, that might be true.

However, looking purely from a practical perspective, it is proven that even taking into account electricity cost and source, EVs are still significantly more economical than ICEs.

It also a fact that they require substantially less maintenance, and are easier to upgrade.

[balthazar]

Does that 'more economical' ignore the purchase price? The audi e-tron is like $35K more that the similar-sized audi IC model.  The upcoming rivian EV pickup is going to START at $62K.

Edited February 26, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Dude, it's futile arguing with them...they will never change their minds.   Best to just agree to disagree and move on.    The US is full of anti-science people, arguing with them is futile.    

Sadly that same ignorance is what got us the First and Third Reich.

Blindly following ignorant Narcissistic idiots is what leads to the downfall of Society. 

We have to continue to push via discussions otherwise we are doomed our selves.

Change is never easy for those that are lazy, yet change is what allows Humanity to thrive and improve.

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

dfelt touts sales percentages of EV over a short period of time... like it's the first time cars have been sold.  it is beyond comprehension to me that he forgets the hundreds of millions of internal combustion vehicles that are being driven... daily... and have been for their lifespan to date.  and the brand new ones being sought, desired and bought daily.  boggling.  one could say, troubling for his state of mind if it weren't so entertaining.  and yet the dino juice flows through a big ol' hose to his escalade and trailblazer ss.  his wife needs to buy a chevy bolt for her daily and keep the trailblazer for the weekend... if the felts truly "cared" about Mother Earth, it would happen.  and yet it hasn't.  they come in pretty colors. forget about the white dash for one second and do your duty.

being called "bucko" is a very serious accusation.  one which i do not take lightly.

we should all of us, plant a tree.  that would help our world more than buying an EV.  stop fooling yourselves.

Only You are Fooling yourself. As I have stated, when they have EVs that fit me, I will happily change out my Full size SUV for one and Rivian just might be it. Awaiting the coming EVs to decide what to get once I can actually sit in one and drive it. As far as the Wife, if you actually had a life partner who you cared about and wanted to be happy, you would understand making sure she has options to pick from. As is, cheaper right now to fill the gas tank till the option she likes comes about.

This is called putting others before yourself!

The facts if YOU ACTUALLY READ show over time the life of EVs sales has grown and will continue to grow. No short period and no this is not the first time cars have been sold. 

Amazing your flimsy excuses with no facts or discussion, just static status quo. Humanity dies with this type of thinking. Enjoy your life.

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

Sadly that same ignorance is what got us the First and Third Reich.

Blindly following ignorant Narcissistic idiots is what leads to the downfall of Society. 

We have to continue to push via discussions otherwise we are doomed our selves.

 

Yes, but at least 50% of Americans are imbeciles in general, I see no point in trying to communicate with them...fuck them..live and let die.