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[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I wonder how folk with huge issues over market adjustments remedy the fact that the OEMs sometimes have $15 or even $20 grand pure profit baked into that "fair" MSRP. ?

Sorry but that sounds like whataboutism to me. The fact that there are two people before the buyer, making that extra money (Manufacturer and now the dealership) sum up the problem here. 

On 1/3/2022 at 11:56 AM, balthazar said:

The definition of 'bait & switch' is; they'd have to advertise a specific vehicle at a specific price, then once you engage with that dealer asking about that vehicle, it's "unavailable" and they push you towards another, higher-priced vehicle.  That's 'bait & switch'.

A dealer clearly advertising a vehicle at -say- $10K over the sticker price is NOT 'baiting & switching', that vehicle is right there, available, with the price clearly stated & they'll gladly sell it to you, so there's obviously no scenario requiring 'cracking down'.  If you pay it, you agreed to it.

Anyone who has a major issue with a market adjustment upward should decline all market adjustments downward, including OEM rebates and dealer money off.  Otherwise, that person is denying the OEM their 'fair price' (by the same arbitrary metric).  Otherwise it's 2 people doing the same thing; trying to make the best deal for themselves.

Nowhere did he question the current definition of "bait and switch". His exact words were, "To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on."

 

The part in bold is the key part here. It's to that it is technically bait and switch but maybe it should be.

Edited January 4, 2022 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:56 AM, balthazar said:

The definition of 'bait & switch' is; they'd have to advertise a specific vehicle at a specific price, then once you engage with that dealer asking about that vehicle, it's "unavailable" and they push you towards another, higher-priced vehicle.  That's 'bait & switch'.

A dealer clearly advertising a vehicle at -say- $10K over the sticker price is NOT 'baiting & switching', that vehicle is right there, available, with the price clearly stated & they'll gladly sell it to you, so there's obviously no scenario requiring 'cracking down'.  If you pay it, you agreed to it.

Anyone who has a major issue with a market adjustment upward should decline all market adjustments downward, including OEM rebates and dealer money off.  Otherwise, that person is denying the OEM their 'fair price' (by the same arbitrary metric).  Otherwise it's 2 people doing the same thing; trying to make the best deal for themselves.

First off, plenty of Dealers use the OEM to advertise the cars showing MSRP. Upon visiting said dealerships, you see the AMV stickers which push it above the advertised MSRP. That to me is a bait and switch.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

I wonder how folk with huge issues over market adjustments remedy the fact that the OEMs sometimes have $15 or even $20 grand pure profit baked into that "fair" MSRP. ?

Who Cares if the OEM has a $20K markup! They advertise the auto at a MSRP price and that is what people think of paying when they buy. The OEMs are not advertising their cost on said auto, but an MSRP, so whatever profit they mark their products up to sell is their choice, this being no different than what you charge a customer for a project they are having you bid on as they want a final price, not a MSRP plus Adjusted Market Value mark up.

EVERYONE, understands that you will have to pay sales tax, licensing fees, filing fees, etc. as every state has their own way of processing the final sales as well as any additional services or dealer offered packages at the time of buying. I was very clear on the Bait and Switch with the following statement:

The focus is on the Bait and Switch of the Franchises adding no value with a second sticker that is higher priced.

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, David said:

First off, plenty of Dealers use the OEM to advertise the cars showing MSRP. Upon visiting said dealerships, you see the AMV stickers which push it above the advertised MSRP. That to me is a bait and switch.

Do you have a single example of an advertised price at MSRP and it's actually marked up?

[balthazar]

The term (bait & switch) was used erroneously in David's post; bait & switch is generally illegal.   

There's nothing illegal whatsoever about asking/advertising a particular price for a vehicle that differs from a suggested retail price, hence the inaction of the part of 'the State'. The vehicle belongs to the dealer- it is their decision how to price it and the buyer is under zero obligation to purchase a vehicle there.

- - - - - 
There's a completely tangible bottom line here- the final agreed-upon price. Either the breakdown of where all that monies goes is important at every distribution point, or it isn't.

13 minutes ago, David said:

whatever profit they mark their products up to sell is their choice

... exactly the same as the dealer. They bought the vehicle from the manufacturer, it's their choice how to price it.

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Do you have a single example of an advertised price at MSRP and it's actually marked up?

That is the problem, they have them in ads in the papers and on the web at times, when you arrive to look at the auto, they show you one with an AMV sticker on it. 

Yes, you have pointed out all types of various ways to wiggle out of honoring their advertisement, but that is the problem of connecting what they put on TV, Newspapers and web to what you experience on the dealer lot.

I am not going to spend time cutting and pasting what I have seen, but this AMV sticker is a grey area that dealerships are abusing.

19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

... exactly the same as the dealer. They bought the vehicle from the manufacturer, it's their choice how to price it.

At this point then Dealership Franchises do not need to exist based on your statement as the dealer should be able to buy autos from any OEM auto company and price it how they see fit.

If they are a licensed franchise that is selling only what Ford or GM, etc. states they are selling at that price, they should then be honoring the MSRP and selling it that way.

This grey area is what has caused hatred by so many out there and will be the death eventually of the dealerships as we move forward in the 21st century IMHO.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, David said:

First off, plenty of Dealers use the OEM to advertise the cars showing MSRP. Upon visiting said dealerships, you see the AMV stickers which push it above the advertised MSRP. 

 

1 hour ago, David said:

Yes, you have pointed out all types of various ways to wiggle out of honoring their advertisement, but that is the problem of connecting what they put on TV, Newspapers and web to what you experience on the dealer lot.

Well...not exactly.

In advertisements, usually and mostly, dealerships will showcase the least expensive model with the least expensive monthly payments to entice you to enter their dealerships.  Its usually the base model with a lease option with the most favorable (the lowest possible) amount of money per month. 

And again...  

*PHOQUING SIGH*

M SUGGESTED  R P   does NOT mean its a SOLID price cemented in cement drawn up with blood that the OEM will FORCE upon the dealership to sell the car. 

Its SUGGESTED.

Its a PRIVATE phoquing business....

An owner of a PRIVATE business has the RIGHT to sell its products at whatever price HE/SHE wants...and deems necessary to make...you know...MONEY.   We DO live in a country that practices the free market system, do we not? 

Its up to the CONSUMER to decide for HIMSELF if its WORTH IT!

You know, we have the PHOQUING FREEDOM to NOT buy...    

1 hour ago, David said:

That to me is a bait and switch.

You could call it grand larceny if you want to. Does NOT make it so. 

Bait and switch is NOT what you have described. Bait and switch and a whole 'nother ball game. 

THIS is bait and switch:

 

53 minutes ago, David said:

That is the problem, they have them in ads in the papers and on the web at times, when you arrive to look at the auto, they show you one with an AMV sticker on it. 

 

Like I said above, the ad in the newspaper is of a base model with the least expensive options and monthly payments to entice you to enter the dealership.  There is fine print at the bottom of the ad, LEGAL fine print that a consumer NEEDS to read and THAT protects the dealership from ANY hurt feelings like how you express just in case there is litigation...   And in that fine print explains ALL that there is to know about how the pricing will probably be if you want to buy a more elaborate model...

57 minutes ago, David said:

but this AMV sticker is a grey area that dealerships are abusing.

Abusing?

maybe...

But YOU also do NOT know what expenses the dealerships have incurred because of this covid mess and chip shortage and shipping lane bottle necks and whatever other shyte thta has happened since covid hit. 

I know. I own a business. Certain things have skyrocketed and I also had to market adjust certain items on my menu.   

There ARE options out there to weather out the expensive sticker prices of new cars. There is no need to buy a NEW car right about now. One could exercise their right to buy a used car. Although those are crazy high too, still cheaper a option than buying a crazy market price hike.  The price hike itself just about costs as much as a used car...  

So yeah...

 

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Sorry but that sounds like whataboutism to me. The fact that there are two people before the buyer, making that extra money (Manufacturer and now the dealership) sum up the problem here.

The fact that dealerships are businesses and in a free market system, there is no cap on how much money and profit could be made and it seems to me that you wanna whine for nothing. 

Are you denying the right for a dealership to make money? 

Even if its hand over fist profits, we live in a system where we do not put a cap on profit.  Wouldnt be 'Merican if we did. Would be communism if we did...   

Also...in a free market system, NOBODY forces a consumer to buy anything either...  Unless we are stuck with a monopoly but those are illegal in a free market system.

Also, price fixing is also illegal so unless you and David could prove that ALL dealerships work together to price gouge its customers, you are shyte out of luck with whatever you wanna whine about.   And I think, that some of those price hikes are warranted. Certain expenses that the dealerships had to deal with have skyrocketed.  And unless you know what the dealerships have to go through to make it through the month, you and David cant cry about market adjusted pricing on cars.

There is only one thing you and David could do. And its your God given right (if you believe in such an entity) as an American (OK...its in the Constitution rather than God giving you this right) to choose NOT to buy a new car at this moment in time. 

So do not buy a new car and pay no market adjusted price hike... and if all Amercians do that, maybe market adjusted price hikes cease?  

But if there is one willing red blooded American to pay such a thing, then guess what?   Then whatever vehicle is bought at whatever market  adjusted price it was bought at, then THAT is what THAT  car is worth and its THAT new price that what THAT car's new market value is...

Dont be pissed at the dealership, be pissed at whoever is paying these prices.  Its quite simple...

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

need to crack down on."

There is no need to crack down on anything.

Free market system...

Simple supply and demand. The fundamentals of capitalism.  

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

... exactly the same as the dealer. They bought the vehicle from the manufacturer, it's their choice how to price it.

Which makes his point. It should be the customers choice to buy directly from the manufacturer without the dealership being involved at all, thus cutting out the unnecessary middle man who process nothing to the product involved, other than lip service. 
 

And @oldshurst442-My response here is what the free market car buying practice should actually look like, CUSTOMER CHOICE. 

[oldshurst442]

Just now, surreal1272 said:

CUSTOMER CHOICE. 

And there is another choice:  the choice to NOT to buy if the consumer deems the price is too high or not worth it...

Also, there is a choice to buy used to weather out a market adjusted price storm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are self-regulated by buyers and sellers negotiating in an open market. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority, and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities.^[1] Proponents of the concept of free market contrast it with a regulated market in which a government intervenes in supply and demand through various methods such as tariffs used to restrict trade and to protect the local economy. In an idealized free-market economy, also called a liberal market economy, prices for goods and services are set freely by the forces of supply and demand and are allowed to reach their point of equilibrium without intervention by government policy.

 

https://study.com/academy/lesson/capitalism-and-the-free-market.html

 

Capitalism and the Free Market

Meet Tanya, the founder of a small tech company in the United States. She recently formed her company to design and build a smart watch, which is a miniature computer tablet that you can wear on your wrist. She dreams of making piles of money, which is one of the rewards of success in free market capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic system that is organized around the principles of private property, freedom of exchange, competitive markets and limited government intervention. An economic system is simply a way that society structures how economic decisions will be made and resources will be allocated. Now, let's take a closer look at what a capitalistic system entails.

Most property in a capitalistic economy is private. This means that individuals, instead of the government, own the factors of production. Factors of production are the things that we use to make goods and services and include land, labor and capital. You also get to keep the profits from your economic activities. Since you get to keep what you earn, this tends to encourage risk-taking and innovation. If Tanya didn't have the right to the profits generated from sales of her smart watches, she may not bother to invest time, energy or money to take the risk and innovate.

A second important feature of capitalism is freedom of exchange. An exchange is simply trading one resource for another. Nobody can force Tanya to sell her company. Moreover, nobody can be forced to buy Tanya's smart watches. And Tanya cannot force anyone to work for her.

Instead, everybody in a capitalistic economy has the right to engage in exchanges or not engage in exchanges. People make exchanges according to their self-interest. If the deal isn't worth it to one of the parties, then the deal won't go through. In other words, if a potential customer doesn't think Tanya's smart watch is worth the price, he will not exchange money for it.

The third primary feature of capitalism is competitive markets. A market is a place where buyers and sellers come together to engage in economic exchanges. A perfectly competitive market is characterized by a large number of sellers that offer identical products for sale and everybody has information that they need to make a rational decision regarding a potential exchange. If all products are the same, businesses must compete on price.

Perfectly competitive markets seldom exist. Most markets are competitive markets and are characterized by a large number of businesses selling similar products with all participants having pretty good information. For example, Tanya isn't the only, or the largest, company coming up with smart watches.

Limited government intervention in the economy is also a major characteristic of capitalism. This type of competitive market is often referred to as a free market. The government generally does not set the prices of goods or services - the market sets the price. And the government's regulatory role is pretty much limited to ensuring that there is a level and fair playing field. In other words, the government sets up the rules, so that no one has an unfair advantage in the market.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, David said:

That is the problem, they have them in ads in the papers and on the web at times, when you arrive to look at the auto, they show you one with an AMV sticker on it. 

Yes, you have pointed out all types of various ways to wiggle out of honoring their advertisement, but that is the problem of connecting what they put on TV, Newspapers and web to what you experience on the dealer lot.

I am not going to spend time cutting and pasting what I have seen, but this AMV sticker is a grey area that dealerships are abusing.

...so you don't have a single example of a dealership advertising one price and it's actually a different price...?

 

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Well...not exactly.

In advertisements, usually and mostly, dealerships will showcase the least expensive model with the least expensive monthly payments to entice you to enter their dealerships.  Its usually the base model with a lease option with the most favorable (the lowest possible) amount of money per month. 

And again...  

*PHOQUING SIGH*

M SUGGESTED  R P   does NOT mean its a SOLID price cemented in cement drawn up with blood that the OEM will FORCE upon the dealership to sell the car. 

Its SUGGESTED.

Its a PRIVATE phoquing business....

An owner of a PRIVATE business has the RIGHT to sell its products at whatever price HE/SHE wants...and deems necessary to make...you know...MONEY.   We DO live in a country that practices the free market system, do we not? 

Its up to the CONSUMER to decide for HIMSELF if its WORTH IT!

You know, we have the PHOQUING FREEDOM to NOT buy...    

100%

You couldn't have said it much better.

If you don't like the price, don't buy the fckn thing. Find a dealership that isn't marking vehicles up and buy from them. it isn't a Right to buy a certain vehicle. 

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Simple supply and demand. The fundamentals of capitalism.  

Somebody gets is. it seems insanely simple to understand at this basic level of reduced inventory with really high demand.  

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

If you don't like the price, don't buy the fckn thing. Find a dealership that isn't marking vehicles up and buy from them. it isn't a Right to buy a certain vehicle.

Since you asked for David to give an example of something (that wasn't even part of his core point), I would like to even ONE example of this mythical dealer that doesn't mark up.

 

The simple fact is that if 98% of the dealers are doing this, then that is not customer choice, no matter how many times Olds and you say it. This whole "you don't have to buy it" nonsense only goes so far when virtually very dealership commits to the same practice of markups and there are people who rely on a reliable car to get to work and pay their damn bills (because mass transportation clearly isn't an option for everyone). I'll say it one more time for those in the back. If it were REALLY a choice for the customer, then they would buy directly form the manufacturer and skip all the inflated dealership nonsense. You can't support "customer choice" while ignoring the fact that there isn't really that much of a choice to begin with (for reasons I have already stated).

 

PHOQUING sigh on that.

Edited January 5, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Since you asked for David to give an example of something (that wasn't even part of his core point), I would like to even ONE example of this mythical dealer that doesn't mark up.

I've already given a story of my local Chevy/Buick/GMC dealership not marking anything up to any local buyer. They only have markups to people calling from out of state looking for X vehicle. They're trying to do right to their core buyers. 

https://www.steveschmittauto.com/

For fun, call this dealership who's stating the MSRP for a Bronco and see what they're really asking for it.

https://www.trifordhighland.com/new/Ford/2021-Ford-Bronco-49a36ec40a0e09af6a62d4e9f741e7f6.htm

 

Yes, bait and switching is his core point. I just asked for one example of this, a dealership advertised price being marked up on the lot. 

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I've already given a story of my local Chevy/Buick/GMC dealership not marking anything up to any local buyer. They only have markups to people calling from out of state looking for X vehicle. They're trying to do right to their core buyers. 

https://www.steveschmittauto.com/

For fun, call this dealership who's stating the MSRP for a Bronco and see what they're really asking for it.

https://www.trifordhighland.com/new/Ford/2021-Ford-Bronco-49a36ec40a0e09af6a62d4e9f741e7f6.htm

 

Yes, bait and switching is his core point. I just asked for one example of this, a dealership advertised price being marked up on the lot. 

And he also gave examples of why the practices (he mentioned) should qualify as bait and switch, not that are )legally speaking) bait and switch. Key distinction that you seem to be missing in all of this. 

 

As far as the dealership, you make a fair point but if you also read what I said, I said that "98%" are doing this. Your dealership is the 2% exception. My dealership remark was also a smaller statement mixed in the larger point of true customer choice and being able to skip the dealership altogether. Sorry but folks can claim capitalism and choice when at least one of those doesn't really exist (choice) and you currently have dealerships and governments (looking at you Michigan and Texas) who are stifling the buy direct approach brought on by companies like Tesla. Sorry but those tactics and blocking maneuvers are the EXACT opposite of capitalism.

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And he also gave examples of why the practices (he mentioned) should qualify as bait and switch, not that are )legally speaking) bait and switch. Key distinction that you seem to be missing in all of this. 

Then it's not actually a bait and switch. He can call it that but that certainly is not what it is. 

 

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

As far as the dealership, you make a fair point but if you also read what I said, I said that "98%" are doing this. Your dealership is the 2% exception. My dealership remark was also a smaller statement mixed in the larger point of true customer choice and being able to skip the dealership altogether. Sorry but folks can claim capitalism and choice when at least one of those doesn't really exist (choice) and you currently have dealerships and governments (looking at you Michigan and Texas) who are stifling the buy direct approach brought on by companies like Tesla. Sorry but those tactics and blocking maneuvers are the EXACT opposite of capitalism.

The problem is, at least in my opinion, people are idiots and continue to pay these absurd markups. If people stopped paying them, then the prices would go back to MSRP. 

I am also fine skipping dealerships all together. I'm not a huge fan of dealerships and they inherently feel "scammy" and my fair share of salespeople don't know jack about what they're selling and will do whatever just to get a sale and make money on their side. I get it. It's a job. They're there to make money but the way a good chunk of them go about it is crappy. My friend who works at the above GM dealership doesn't know jack about cars nor does he care. He likely couldn't answer 50% of questions about a vehicle but is just there to make sales. Heck, I've tried to buy through him before when I was searching for my Escape and later Focus (he worked a a Ford dealership then) he didn't immediately find what I was looking for in my price range and just never got back in touch with me and then on the Focus he tried to tell me I didn't want it and I should get a Fusion. Classis dealership upsell. 

Well that definitely turned into a rant...hahaha

[balthazar]

I never had an issue with a dealer salesman thru probably 10 experiences. 
The sales guy who I dealt with for my GMC was very knowledgable- he was the store's 'truck guy'.... and I was edjoomacated when I walked in.

[ccap41]

@David, here’s your Silverado

That’s quite the price gap 

[Robert Hall]

They had to out do Ford's max starting price point.. So a similar body layout to the Hummer EV as far as the integral bed. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

They had to out do Ford's max price point.. So a similar body layout to the Hummer EV as far as the integral bed. 

Yeah, it definitely looks like a Chevy Hummer but also an Avalanche. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

I never had an issue with a dealer salesman thru probably 10 experiences. 
The sales guy who I dealt with for my GMC was very knowledgable- he was the store's 'truck guy'.... and I was edjoomacated when I walked in.

And that's YOUR choice but that is not the way for everyone.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

@David, here’s your Silverado

That’s quite the price gap 

Avalanche part deux. I dig it.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Avalanche part deux. I dig it.

Yup, I'm not 100% in love with the front end but I don't hate it so I'm going to assume it'll grow on me. Definitely Avalanche vibes and I dig that. 

[G. David Felt]

Seems some battery companies are focused on offering a superior battery pack for Tesla owners and as such, the following company Our Next Energy (ONE) company has a battery pack that gives the Tesla S a 752 mile range.

 

[balthazar]

GM in step with Ford (naturally): a circa $10K bump to get into a Silverado BE.

This 'Avalanche-esque' unibody cannot represent the actual pickup line it appears -like the Hummer- to be a one-and-done singular body style. It has to be a side model like the Avalanche was.
In addition to potentially jettisoning some of the customer base on price, others will likely drop off if there aren't alternate (traditional) configurations.

No; there aren't a bunch of truck buyers who think the current truck configuration 'model' is tired.

• I like the nose of it more than I thought I would, esp being such a departure from the current style (which I like just fine) and a lot more 'car-like'.
• Range & charge times sound reasonable.
• 24-in rims are redonkulous (in a good way).
• Interior looks fantastic.
• It's got a LOT of contrasting trim/color going on- I don't know if that's a nod to the 1st gen Avalanche, but IMO I'd prefer some of that reduced/body color.
• Pricing is redonkulous (in a bad way).

[surreal1272]

38 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's got a LOT of contrasting trim/color going on- I don't know if that's a nod to the 1st gen Avalanche, but IMO I'd prefer some of that reduced/body color

With all due respect, there is blue, black, and chrome, the same number of colors (with a slightly brighter blue) as your GMC. 

[balthazar]

Ford's Lightning configurator is running, so I priced out a Lightning as close to my Sierra as possible. Extended range gives you a 300-mile range, my Sierra has a 625 mile range. No longer bed option however (an automatic disqualification for me). Optioned basically the same, Lightning came out at $75K, Sierra was $56K.

If I instead chose the standard 230-mile range trim, in order to get the heated wheel/seats, tailgate step & LED box lighting, Ford pushes me to the XLT 312A package, which is an incredible $9500. There the price is $65K.

So it's still a 9 grand ante' with a shorter bed vs. my Sierra - that's a chunk of change there.

Lightning does tow more (10K vs. 8.8K), but I might tow something once every 3 years. My only intended future towing is the B-59 on a trailer, about 5700-ish lbs. total- so I'm well covered there.

[surreal1272]

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Extended range gives you a 300-mile range, my Sierra has a 625 mile range

Again, not an apples to oranges comparison and you know it Balth. It should be noted that it is FAR cheaper to juice up for 300 miles than it is fill 300 miles worth of diesel into your GMC.

 

You also are skipping over a lot of features that the Lightning offers that ICE pick ups don't. While it may not be "worth it" to you, I bet it is worth it to plenty of others.

[G. David Felt]

Electric charging is 6 cents per kW of power versus Diesel at $3.87 per gallon. Knowing that @balthazar I think said he was getting about 24 miles per gallon, diesel cost for 300 miles would be $48.375 per fill up. 

Battery charges up from zero to full in F-150 Lighting pickup 125 kW battery pack standard or extended 170 kW battery pack:

125 kW = $7.50

170 kW = $10.20

Either way, I come out way ahead on fueling cost on an Electric truck over Diesel and I can do it from home starting out every day with a full battery pack, no need to run to the gas station.

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, David said:

Electric charging is 6 cents per kW of power versus Diesel at $3.87 per gallon. Knowing that @balthazar I think said he was getting about 24 miles per gallon, diesel cost for 300 miles would be $48.375 per fill up. 

Battery charges up from zero to full in F-150 Lighting pickup 125 kW battery pack standard or extended 170 kW battery pack:

125 kW = $7.50

170 kW = $10.20

Either way, I come out way ahead on fueling cost on an Electric truck over Diesel and I can do it from home starting out every day with a full battery pack, no need to run to the gas station.

My rate is 6.5 cents/kw and that's pretty low. Looking at averages by state, the average is 10.59 cents/kw. 

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

I know that's still cheaper than fossil fuels, just stating a number that's more appropriate for comparisons.

[ccap41]

Opinion: Imagine Virginia’s icy traffic catastrophe — but with only electric vehicles

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/04/imagine-virginias-icy-traffic-catastrophe-with-only-electric-vehicles/

 

 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Opinion: Imagine Virginia’s icy traffic catastrophe — but with only electric vehicles

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/04/imagine-virginias-icy-traffic-catastrophe-with-only-electric-vehicles/

 

 

Well, good thing cars can't run of gas while stranded on the highway in the cold, I guess. Oh wait. Also, of the record, if power is out in surrounding areas, then you can't get gas either. point being, whether its and ICE or an EV, there are risks when you're stranded out in the cold.

Edited January 6, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Well, good thing cars can't run of gas while stranded on the highway in the cold, I guess. Oh wait. Also, of the record, if power is out in surrounding areas, then you can't get gas either. point being, whether its and ICE or an EV, there are risks when you're stranded out in the cold.

A pretty big difference here being you'll still need gasoline vehicles to tow or charge the EVs to get them going again compared to a truck bed full of gas tanks to get dozens moving again, who've run out of fuel. 

 

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, not an apples to oranges comparison and you know it Balth. It should be noted that it is FAR cheaper to juice up for 300 miles than it is fill 300 miles worth of diesel into your GMC.

 

You also are skipping over a lot of features that the Lightning offers that ICE pick ups don't. While it may not be "worth it" to you, I bet it is worth it to plenty of others.

I read the configurator details- did you? What “lot of features” did you see?? The front storage box was really it (I have outlets in the interior and bed) And yes; you CAN compare 2 different vehicles with each other legitimately- at least I got 2 as close as possible other than motive power.

RE “apples/oranges” : don’t you think everyone in the truck segment is doing the EXACT same thing over the next decade; weighing out how the ‘new guy’ operates & what it costs??

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

Electric charging is 6 cents per kW of power versus Diesel at $3.87 per gallon. Knowing that @balthazar I think said he was getting about 24 miles per gallon, diesel cost for 300 miles would be $48.375 per fill up. 

Battery charges up from zero to full in F-150 Lighting pickup 125 kW battery pack standard or extended 170 kW battery pack:

125 kW = $7.50

170 kW = $10.20

Either way, I come out way ahead on fueling cost on an Electric truck over Diesel and I can do it from home starting out every day with a full battery pack, no need to run to the gas station.

Sierra MPG still climbing- current 400-mile window stands at 26.3.
My electric is more than your rate, and my diesel is a lil cheaper. 

I got to the gas station about once every 10 days, vs. running an extension cord out & plugging in every day or 2 to charge. I also spent $27,000 less than if I bought an F-150 Lightning, so I’m at least a decade behind you in total bottom line costs. (Omitting increased registration & home electric upgrade costs ? ).

[balthazar]

Full-size pickups don’t fit thru standard single-vehicle garage doors- too wide. And the Sierra is the widest vehicle I ever owned.

[surreal1272]

46 minutes ago, balthazar said:

My electric is more than your rate, and my diesel is a lil cheaper. 

Still a HUGE gulf in costs to fill up vs. juice up.

 

Oh and nice bar moving there SMK.

Edited January 6, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

53 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I got to the gas station about once every 10 days, vs. running an extension cord out & plugging in every day or 2 to charge.

No need to exaggerate. Unless you drive 300 miles a day or even 150 a day, you would not be plugging it in that often. Based on your ten day figure, it’s more like every five days. If it was me, I’d rather the “inconvenience” of plugging it in once a week than having to deal with your average gas station. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 4/27/2021 at 4:16 PM, ccap41 said:

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  How many chargers are there in total, outside of the "Ford" network? 

Many many 10s of thousands.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Sierra MPG still climbing- current 400-mile window stands at 26.3.
My electric is more than your rate, and my diesel is a lil cheaper. 

I got to the gas station about once every 10 days, vs. running an extension cord out & plugging in every day or 2 to charge. I also spent $27,000 less than if I bought an F-150 Lightning, so I’m at least a decade behind you in total bottom line costs. (Omitting increased registration & home electric upgrade costs ? ).

You don't have electrical service in the back garage? 

[Drew Dowdell]

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

GM in step with Ford (naturally): a circa $10K bump to get into a Silverado BE.

This 'Avalanche-esque' unibody cannot represent the actual pickup line it appears -like the Hummer- to be a one-and-done singular body style. It has to be a side model like the Avalanche was.
In addition to potentially jettisoning some of the customer base on price, others will likely drop off if there aren't alternate (traditional) configurations.

No; there aren't a bunch of truck buyers who think the current truck configuration 'model' is tired.

• I like the nose of it more than I thought I would, esp being such a departure from the current style (which I like just fine) and a lot more 'car-like'.
• Range & charge times sound reasonable.
• 24-in rims are redonkulous (in a good way).
• Interior looks fantastic.
• It's got a LOT of contrasting trim/color going on- I don't know if that's a nod to the 1st gen Avalanche, but IMO I'd prefer some of that reduced/body color.
• Pricing is redonkulous (in a bad way).

They basically hit my wishlist exactly.  I do want SuperCruise and extended range but have no need for 4-wheel steering or the multi-pro tailgate.  So I'll be at the upper end but not topped out RST model. I'd want 20s if possible, 22s are too rough over our bad roads. Adjustable air suspension is nice... I didn't realize how much I used it on the Avalanche when I had the bike on the back.  We rented a Wagoneer to take with us to Florida over the holiday and without air suspension the bike was making the rear end squat noticeably. 

To your point regarding it being a "real" pickup... this is clearly a body engineered platform mate to the Hummer. I haven't looked, but I bet the wheelbase is identical or pretty close.  The whole point the the Ultium platform is that the chassis is pretty agnostic and in theory you could take the body off a Hummer and put it on the Avalanche Silverado EV.

I still think GM marketing department has ZERO imagination.... they even could have named this an EValanche. 

[G. David Felt]

Excellent video on the EVs coming in 2022 and I have to say Mercedes FAILS with the UGLY EQB that has no style and fails, so much better is the BMW even with the ugly kidney grill. Others look way better than the germans too.

 

[ccap41]

Speaking aesthetically only, I think the EQB is one of the better looking vehicles on that list. It isn't being weird and quirky just for the sake of being weird and quirky. 

[Robert Hall]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Speaking aesthetically only, I think the EQB is one of the better looking vehicles on that list. It isn't being weird and quirky just for the sake of being weird and quirky. 

Hadn't heard of that one...appears to be based on the GLB...

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Speaking aesthetically only, I think the EQB is one of the better looking vehicles on that list. It isn't being weird and quirky just for the sake of being weird and quirky. 

Agreed. It is just boring though. 

[G. David Felt]

34 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Speaking aesthetically only, I think the EQB is one of the better looking vehicles on that list. It isn't being weird and quirky just for the sake of being weird and quirky. 

I agree with you that it is not weird and quirky, but as @surreal1272 stated boring or for me TOTALLY FORGETABLE! 

Mercedes seems to be building true appliance autos that one will forget as they do not stand out and that could be the biggest failure of Mercedes BEV strategy. While not a fan of the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid, you do not forget them, and they are easily identifiable. Mercedes has moved into the generic realm so bad that they are totally forgettable as most people will not be able to define them from one another.

IMHO

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Still a HUGE gulf in costs to fill up vs. juice up.

Still a HUGE gulf in costs to purchase the same truck as a BE.

[balthazar]

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You don't have electrical service in the back garage? 

110 only, and no exterior outlets. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Still a HUGE gulf in costs to purchase the same truck as a BE.

150k miles at 20mpg average at $3.25 a gallon is $24,375 or 16.25 cents per mile to fuel.

Very roughly, a Tesla can travel at 0.25 kW per mile. (98 kw battery / 405 mile range). My peak electric rate is 14c/kWH and my off peak is 7c/kWH. 
150,000 miles would take 37,693 KW, meaning my cost to fuel could be as much as $5,276 or as little as $2,638.

I don’t know the full specs of the EValanche but the numbers probably run similar. But if it’s a $10k spread like you said @balthazar, the EValanche or Lightning would start to pay back after about 75k miles if you’re only talking fueling. Throw in savings from 10 $75 oil changes, and 2 sets of brakes, and it’ll happen even faster.

EVs as trucks make way more financial sense than EVs as cars.

 

[balthazar]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

No need to exaggerate. Unless you drive 300 miles a day or even 150 a day, you would not be plugging it in that often.

On the 230-mile range Lightning, and driving an average of 50 miles/day, how often would you charge it (assuming it got 100% of it's range)? I don't drive to an office or store or parking deck, I'm going to people's homes, and allowing for the unpredictable nature of my work (have to make an unscheduled material run, for example), I'm going to charge probably every 3 days (150 miles), because that 4th day would take me down to 30 miles (again: assuming 100% maximum range). Just plug into their house? Maybe- not sure I'm comfortable with asking that or new / newer customers.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

On the 230-mile range Lightning, and driving an average of 50 miles/day, how often would you charge it (assuming it got 100% of it's range)? I don't drive to an office or store or parking deck, I'm going to people's homes, and allowing for the unpredictable nature of my work (have to make an unscheduled material run, for example), I'm going to charge probably every 3 days (150 miles), because that 4th day would take me down to 30 miles (again: assuming 100% maximum range). Just plug into their house? Maybe- not sure I'm comfortable with asking that or new / newer customers.

No, you’ll spend the $1500 to get a charger installed at home because of the convenience of it and you’ll plug it in each night.

[balthazar]

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

20mpg average at $3.25 a gallon is $24,375

OK... of course with GM trucks you're either getting more like 16 (gas)... or like 25 (diesel). Current tank is averaging over 26 (got some highway miles this go-round). 

I will keep an eye on the future Sierra/Silverados of course; looking forward to seeing a crew cab / 6.5' bed BE model.... and pricing dropping to a parity with where the IC trucks are. Only then would I 'crunch the numbers' on changing over. However, I expect the current Sierra to last me 200K miles+, like the last truck.

That leaves me with the question; come the sunset of turbo diesels... do I order one last one to carry me forever?

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

you’ll spend the $1500 to get a charger installed at home

That's 20 oil changes.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Agreed. It is just boring though. 

it is boring but I don't think it's boring in a bad way, kind of like a Passat. It's super boring but it's done well so it's still an attractive vehicle. I don't think the EQB looks quite as nice as a Passat but similar in the boring/bland category.