Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[balthazar]

^ True- the COPO's aren't street legal.
But they are factory-built, and the same engines are factory-available for installation in your burnt-out Model S.

More to the point; its a factory-built powertrain that goes 8's in the quarter- even in a street-legal car it should be in the 9s no problem.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

^ True- the COPO's aren't street legal.
But they are factory-built, and the same engines are factory-available for installation in your burnt-out Model S.

More to the point; its a factory-built powertrain that goes 8's in the quarter- even in a street-legal car it should be in the 9s no problem.

One would hope ones COPO or Fulie would not burn down, but it does happen and is sad.

Be it ICE or BEV, loosing an auto to fire is never good.

Course Tesla still has their own fire issues as 1 of 250 initial Tesla S Plaid self combusted.

Brand new Tesla Model S ‘erupts into flames and briefly traps driver inside after doors malfunctioned’ | upcoming World News

[Robert Hall]

Burnt Telsas usually melt down and aren't reparable, presumably because they are aluminum and the batteries burn pretty fiercely....

As far as that COPO Camaro, would be neat if they could make a street legal version of that car, something like the Hellcat Demon... but with a modern transmission (a 3spd auto wouldn't make sense on the street, it's not 1969). 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Just bolt a Gear Vendors OD unit out the back; keep the bulletproof strength of the TH400 and add 3 more gears. Done.

Most modern OD’s wouldn’t handle the  TRQ of a 572.

[balthazar]

50 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

 

Burnt Telsas usually melt down and aren't reparable

Not ‘burnt down’; burnt out motor. ?

[Robert Hall]

32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Not ‘burnt down’; burnt out motor. ?

As with any appliance, a burnt out motor means it’s time for recycling and replace with a new appliance.  

[balthazar]

Mostly true.
One could argue tho, that a motor vehicle is a pretty huge expense... making it a leading candidate for a different type of recycling : 
 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Mostly true.
One could argue tho, that a motor vehicle is a pretty huge expense... making it a leading candidate for a different type of recycling : 
 

This is my plan for my 1994 GMC Suburban SLE from ICE to BEV with a Huge FRUNK and modernization where I deem while keeping it clean and pretty much looking original 1994 to a point.

I love projects like this and respect you for wanting old to be kept old or hot rodded, but I like taking old and adding 21st century to it.

Very excited for GM Electric Connect Cruise solutions that are coming. Especially the tri motor 1000HP crate solution.

As per this story, The Chevrolet Performance eCrate Is Here to Make Electric Drivetrain Swaps Easier Than Ever (thedrive.com)

Quote:

Chevrolet Performance is even certifying dealerships and aftermarket companies as Electric Connect Cruise and Connect installers, making sure that they'll have the right training and equipment to work on these kits. Michigan's Lingenfelter Performance Engineering—as in, the fast Corvette people—will be the first company to test out the new certification program. 

 

[Robert Hall]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Just bolt a Gear Vendors OD unit out the back; keep the bulletproof strength of the TH400 and add 3 more gears. Done.

Most modern OD’s wouldn’t handle the  TRQ of a 572.

The Challenger Demon with 770 ft/lb of torque gets by with a ZF 8spd auto.  As far as aftermarket GM product, the Hennessy Exorcist has a stock 10 spd auto with 800+ ft/lb tq. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

It take exponential HP/TRQ to get that quick. A 808/770 car going 9.6 CANNOT go 8.6 with -say-909/870. I'd bet that COPO Camaro in the 8s is packing over 1050/1000.

My brother's Firebird ran 9.6-9.8 with a just-under 700hp 406CI (car much lighter than a Challenger).
His new motor dyno'd at just over 1100, the calculation (in the same car) puts it in the 8.4-8.5 range. That's 400 HP to gain a sec+ at the 8-9 sec range.

Look at the Tesla Plaid- has hit in the very low 9s (unknown to what degree it was modified). That car stock is rated at 1020 total HP (COPO Camaro would be WAY lighter). Of course- the Tesla has no transmission (and AWD).

With the TRQ peak at X RPM, factoring in the gears & traction... it's a significant and brutal load on a trans. Prudent move is to start with the strongest base. There's a very real reason the COPO went with the TH400 (hint: it wasn't laziness and they aren't using up a stockpile of 33+-yr old transmissions).

If I recall correctly; the Challenger was built around the ZF trans, which I'm seeing has a TRQ limit of... 770 lb-ft. ?

Edited August 1, 2021 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

CHAdeMo is dead long live CCS.

Charged EVs | Electrify America to phase out CHAdeMO charging from 2022 - Charged EVs

[A Horse With No Name]

 

If Vinyl records can make a come back, certainly Wind powered ships can. 

[riviera74]

Vinyl is strictly a niche market now.  Nothing like it was in the pre-CD era. 

As for wind-powered ships that haul freight, that sounds like a good idea with one concern.  Sailing ships took 6-8 weeks to come from Europe to the US East Coast.  It would have taken more than three months to sail from China to the US West Coast back when sailing ships were the norm.  If you can get sailing ships to be as fast as diesel-powered ships, that could actually work out OK.

[G. David Felt]

Seams Fort Worth Texas is one of the final finalist for the second Rivian auto plant. Expected to produce 200,000 auto's a year.

Amazon-Backed Rivian Automotive in Talks For $5 Billion Texas Plant - Bloomberg

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Seams Fort Worth Texas is one of the final finalist for the second Rivian auto plant. Expected to produce 200,000 auto's a year.

Amazon-Backed Rivian Automotive in Talks For $5 Billion Texas Plant - Bloomberg

Damn, it would have been cool if they would have bought an old Chrysler plant that's been closed for probably a decade now, located in the St Louis area. 

Before I even clicked "submit reply" I had to look it up and it's been tore down and it's just a massive vacant lot. It would still have been cool if they built a new plant there. It is a 295 acre lot, 5 million sq ft building. 

[ccap41]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ctc-boulder-teardrop-camping-trailer-ev-battery/

An interesting option to increase range while towing. 

[balthazar]

Watching a Hummer EV vidoe
[here: https://insideevs.com/news/537016/gmc-hummer-ev-wtf-scary/?fbclid=IwAR3HzEhhmfFbxiSHuaBZkw2v1ZeEeukzDKet93hB5vHaS11IoEBGAfy7-_k ]

and while everyone ballyhoos how it's going to go 0-60 in about 3 secs, but........

.....no one talks about the TWENTY-EIGHT SECONDS it takes to get ready to utilize the WTF mode. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

^^^Yeah...

All launch controls (regardless whether on ICEV or BEV) take that much time to program and engage. 

 

 

[balthazar]

If you’re street racing an EV in an IC, you don’t need launch control: the EV is spotting you a half minute head start.

[oldshurst442]

You shouldnt really be street racing.  

 

But if you must, you must.

Well....the Corvette in order to keep up with the WTF mode Hummer, it will ALSO need to engage its launch control.

 

And both take a looong time to set up. 

Now...since the Hummer is such a heavy beast, maybe a straight up race with the Vette may not be a good idea as the Vette without launch control is still pretty fast.   But when we factor in a P100D Tesla Model S, the C8 Vette may need the launch control to try and beat the Tesla.  The Tesla might not really need launch control to keep up.  

I think the launch control set up in the Challenger is a quicker system to engage.    Kudos to MOPAR. 

 

 

[balthazar]

It's not only launch control.  BE's need X-amount of time to cool the batteries first.

There was a vid out I think last year; 4 vehicles racing, the top 2 were a Model S and a Lambo Urus. Took the Model S the better part of an HOUR to cool the batteries and keep topping off it's charge in order to maximize its performance. I have no idea what difference it would've made, performance-wise, if they took off in half a minute instead.

None of the breathless press releases ever bother to mention that.

HummerEV 0-60 is actually 31 seconds.

Edited September 29, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

That goes without saying about EVs needing 1 hour to cool down between rounds. 

But, an ICEV also needs time to cool down between rounds.  On modified cars that push horsepower way beyond what came stock with the car.  They will run 3-4 times back to back (if that) then the dragster driver will put ice packs and dry ice and all kinds of other neat tricks on the manifold to cool it down. Because heat on the ICE robs power...  And yes, sometimes these ICEV will also take one hour before running again.

Cars like the Demon Challenger have dope stock methods in where the computer makes use of the air conditioning unit to cool down the engine making the Demon run countless of times.   Which I gather some hot rodder thought of first and Mopar used that trick on its car right for the show room floor.  Or maybe it came straight from SRT brains.  

regardless though

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/organized-drag-racing-autocross/109331-how-do-you-cool.html

 

That discussion is from 2002 and it matches what I have seen when I had gone to the drag races at Napierville 2 or 3 times about the same time.  Maybe things have changed since then.  It has been 20 years.

But Ive seen this contraption on google just now.  Cooling technics have changed in 20 years. This method doesnt require plastic bags... 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

^^^Yeah...

All launch controls (regardless whether on ICEV or BEV) take that much time to program and engage. 

 

 

No, No they do not all take that long to engage. 

^ That's a heavily modified vehicle cooling down, not an OE car. I don't think any OE car that should be overheating and need to cool down anywhere near like that. 

[balthazar]

45 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

That goes without saying about EVs needing 1 hour to cool down between rounds. 

It wasn't between rounds, it was before the first round.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

It wasn't between rounds, it was before the first round.

Yeah...

Ive heard of guys driving their hopped up Integras and Corrado VR6s to Napierville back in the day and sitting out at least half an hour to cool down before going on their first run. 

Point being to answer @ccap41 also

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That's a heavily modified vehicle cooling down, not an OE car. I don't think any OE car that should be overheating and need to cool down anywhere near like that. 

 

When making high horsepower, whether stock or hot rodded, an engine makes heat. (Batteries produce heat too) 

And heat just kills horsepower. (Batteries dont perform well)    Engines need to be as cool as possible as to maximize horsepower and therefore get the lowest times possible during a run.

A car dragging if not  cooled properly will just bog down and lose 2-3-4 even 5 seconds easily.     Heavily modified or not...    The more horsepower the car makes, the more drastic the cooling technics need to be made...    The more modified the drag car is away from stock, the more engineering effort is needed to efficiently and sufficiently cool down the car.  The more efficiently and sufficiently the drag car is cooled down, the more runs back to back it can run WITHOUT a penalty in time down the track. The more consistently it will race throughout the day with more runs it could accomplish. 

A BEV will simply shut down. Computers wont allow it to run.

But...trying to make it sound like heat is soley a BEV problem and not with ICEV to run down a drag strip is being overly melodramatic. 

 

[oldshurst442]

46 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

No, No they do not all take that long to engage. 

5 seconds or 30 seconds.  Its too long either way.

if the guy has an old school car with an old school manual (or automatic) and is ready to go...NOW but his car does 0-60 in 4.9 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.6 seconds @ 110 MPH and the other guy is in his brand new launch controlled machine that does 0-60s in 2 seconds flat and the quarter mile in 9.9 seconds flat @ 140 MPH 

Well....if the race is NOW...its NOW.

Even if the launch control could be made in 4 seconds. The race is all but over before it even starts...

THAT is the point.  

As I stated before, the Challenger's launch system is quick. 

The Corvette C8's system is not.  

But...because all modern supercars and sports cars and sport EVs ALL have launch control, the way drag races are done on the street and strip is that the races are NOT started NOW. But EVERYONE waits for launch control to be engaged...  

Moot point of launch control taking too much time to activate.   5 seconds or 30.  

Its just stupid that it takes 30 seconds for watts to feedom to be engaged. But the Hummer in vocation is not a Demon either...    Its just super cool that the Hummer has such a mode.  And its even more cooler that a 10 000 pound beast could achieve that kind of velocity. 

 

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

heat just kills horsepower. (Batteries dont perform well)    Engines need to be as cool as possible as to maximize horsepower and therefore get the lowest times possible during a run.

Actually, IC engines/transmissions need to be at operating temperature for maximum performance. It's the incoming AIR that benefits from being as cool as possible.

- - - - -
I don't get a IC car 'cooling down for an hour' before it's first run. 'Cooling down' from what?

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Actually, IC engines/transmissions need to be at operating temperature for maximum performance. It's the incoming AIR that benefits from being as cool as possible.

True.

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I don't get a IC car 'cooling down for an hour' before it's first run. 'Cooling down' from what?

I honestly dont know.

Its what they did.  Friends and staff.  It was a common theme with them.  A another common theme:  4 and 6 cylinder cars.   Does THAT make a difference? 4 and 6 cylinders versus 8?   I dunno...    Probably not.  Id say it doesnt make ANY difference...

I have never drag raced in my life. On the street or on the strip.  

This is where I truly respect YOUR opinion on this as I can tell, YOU are NO stranger to drag races.  Seeing that you have mentioned (and showed us )your brother's Firebird.

I understand, that my angle on this is flawed. Maybe not greatly as ICEV DO  cool down on the drag strip.  OK...I may NOW understand that they cool down for DIFFERENT reasons.

EVs are NOT the consistent speed demons on a race track.  Drag or track.  

Many factors why this is.  Juice runs out very quickly too. Charging takes a loooong time.  Are two other factors. 

But, racing EVs on any type of track has only been a thing for about a decade. Lets give EVs a chance to evolve like ICE. Im sure these kinks will be ironed out.  ICE has been racing now for OVER 100 years.  ICE has also been flying for OVER 100 years.  ICE has nearly been perfected in that time. LOL

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

A car dragging if not  cooled properly will just bog down and lose 2-3-4 even 5 seconds easily.     Heavily modified or not...   

There are ZERO cars available from an OEM that will lose 2 seconds or more in a 1/4 mile race making pass after pass after pass, in stock form. There is sufficient time to cool to regular operating temperatures on the way back to the start. 

[G. David Felt]

Very cool to see that Hyundai and Kia are ready to battle Tesla for battery efficiency.

Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 top 300 miles of EPA range, beat all rivals but Model Y in efficiency (greencarreports.com)

[oldshurst442]

 

[ccap41]

I just found out my uncle who lives out in LA has an R1T reservation with an estimated delivery date of March '22. I'm pretty jealous, to say the least. 

[ccap41]

I came across this article in a copy of Bloomberg that I get at work. Interesting information. 

[ccap41]

@smk4565@balthazar 

BeNz DeAleRsHiP iS gOoD

Edited December 30, 2021 by ccap41

[balthazar]

NOW, yes; it’s the seller’s market. Private vehicle sellers are doing the exact same thing, if the very slightly used pickup market is an indicator. They’ll knash their teeth at a dealer upcharge, meanwhile giddily asking $15 grand over original MSRP from 2 years ago, with 25K miles & that much less warranty on it.
 

 

Maybe the Fed & State gov’t can declare set sale prices for all used vehicles, to prevent market-pricing (and save folk from having to haggle). ?

[smk4565]

This is why the dealer model isn't that good, and might not be that sustainable because it doesn't do anything for customer service.  And once the supply chain catches up, there will be dealers fighting each other to sell cars under MSRP again.

[balthazar]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

there will be dealers fighting each other to sell cars under MSRP again.

.. once again making the dealer model pretty good, financially.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

NOW, yes; it’s the seller’s market. Private vehicle sellers are doing the exact same thing, if the very slightly used pickup market is an indicator. They’ll knash their teeth at a dealer upcharge, meanwhile giddily asking $15 grand over original MSRP from 2 years ago, with 25K miles & that much less warranty on it.
 

 

Maybe the Fed & State gov’t can declare set sale prices for all used vehicles, to prevent market-pricing (and save folk from having to haggle). ?

I do agree though, I'm just giving you flack. If people are willing to pay the absurd market adjustments, all the power to them. I'll never pay over MSRP for a vehicle(or probably anything) unless something drastically changes financially.

[G. David Felt]

This is going to HURT not Help EV sales and another reason that Ford needs to step on the Dealerships if they want to succeed, otherwise plan for a funeral as new auto companies that stick to selling MSRP will take over.

Ford dealers marking up F-150 Lightning by $30K due to strong demand - Electrek

Keep a fare profit in it for the Dealer and enforce MSRP selling like Bose does so the price is the same no matter what dealer you go too. Then make sure the service experience is worth it for repeat business, otherwise let them die.

[balthazar]

• Bose shuttered all 119 U.S. stores last year, so dealers must not have been very profitable. 
• Remaining Bose resellers aren't franchises.
* Seemingly... Bose does not 'enforce MSRP' at all, as I see a brand new (randomly chosen) Bose Wave System IV platinum units vary from $640 to $800 after 2 seconds of googling.

Multi-line audio retailers are not dependent on a single manufacturer, and their investment in selling said product line is pennies on the dollar. You could put 3 automobiles in a tractor trailer... or 4000 audio components.

Auto retailers have a FAR different level of investment.

Edited December 31, 2021 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

27 minutes ago, David said:

This is going to HURT not Help EV sales and another reason that Ford needs to step on the Dealerships if they want to succeed, otherwise plan for a funeral as new auto companies that stick to selling MSRP will take over.

Ford dealers marking up F-150 Lightning by $30K due to strong demand - Electrek

Keep a far profit in it for the Dealer and enforce MSRP selling like Bose does so the price is the same no matter what dealer you go too. Then make sure the service experience is worth it for repeat business, otherwise let them die.

Dealers that pull those stunts should lose their franchise, have their inventories seized and returned to the manufacturers, and buildings bulldozed.  Make them hurt. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

• Bose shuttered all 119 U.S. stores last year, so dealers must not have been very profitable. 
• Remaining Bose resellers aren't franchises.
* Seemingly... Bose does not 'enforce MSRP' at all, as I see a brand new (randomly chosen) Bose Wave System IV platinum units vary from $640 to $800 after 2 seconds of googling.

Multi-line audio retailers are not dependent on a single manufacturer, and their investment in selling said product line is pennies on the dollar. You could put 3 automobiles in a tractor trailer... or 4000 audio components.

Auto retailers have a FAR different level of investment.

• Bose posted that due to the Pandemic, they would close their stores, makes total business sense and focus on online sales as dominate sales area.
• Many other retailers sell multiple products, but when you look at Best Buy, Target, etc. the prices for the same model items are the same, not finding this difference except in regards to the Bose Wave System IV, you have new and refurbished and the refurbished are sold at one price via BOSE, other resellers are allowed to compete at various prices on refurbished to move it, but new same UPC model #s I am not finding a difference in price.

[ccap41]

On 12/31/2021 at 5:08 PM, David said:

This is going to HURT not Help EV sales and another reason that Ford needs to step on the Dealerships if they want to succeed, otherwise plan for a funeral as new auto companies that stick to selling MSRP will take over.

Ford dealers marking up F-150 Lightning by $30K due to strong demand - Electrek

Keep a far profit in it for the Dealer and enforce MSRP selling like Bose does so the price is the same no matter what dealer you go too. Then make sure the service experience is worth it for repeat business, otherwise let them die.

Will you also decline the discounts when these are out for a few years and production finally catches up? 

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Will you also decline the discounts when these are out for a few years and production finally catches up? 

No one would decline a discount when the OEM gives them. This is about managing your franchises. I have not seen fast food franchises add an adjusted market value price to the food that McDonalds markets at a set price. Ford, GM, etc. needs to enforce this same fair pricing of what the buyers are expecting when you see their ads. 

To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on.

[ccap41]

Just now, David said:

No one would decline a discount when the OEM gives them. This is about managing your franchises. I have not seen fast food franchises add an adjusted market value price to the food that McDonalds markets at a set price. Ford, GM, etc. needs to enforce this same fair pricing of what the buyers are expecting when you see their ads. 

To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on.

You'll gladly accept a discount if they're offered but throw a fit and want dealerships shut down if they had an adjustment up? 

Go read a book on supply and demand.

It's only a bait and switch if they're advertising it at MSRP and when you walk in it has as adjustment. 

[G. David Felt]

31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You'll gladly accept a discount if they're offered but throw a fit and want dealerships shut down if they had an adjustment up? 

Go read a book on supply and demand.

It's only a bait and switch if they're advertising it at MSRP and when you walk in it has as adjustment. 

Let me point out you answered the question yourself. The OEM advertises the MSRP for the Auto, their franchises should be selling it at that price, but you show up and see the second sticker added on which is not MSRP. Bait and Switch, that is what is pissing off the consumer. BAIT AND SWITCH.

If the OEM offers discounts, then why should I not accept it, that is normal for everyone.

The focus is on the Bait and Switch of the Franchises adding no value with a second sticker that is higher priced.

[ccap41]

21 minutes ago, David said:

Let me point out you answered the question yourself. The OEM advertises the MSRP for the Auto, their franchises should be selling it at that price, but you show up and see the second sticker added on which is not MSRP. Bait and Switch, that is what is pissing off the consumer. BAIT AND SWITCH.

If the OEM offers discounts, then why should I not accept it, that is normal for everyone.

The focus is on the Bait and Switch of the Franchises adding no value with a second sticker that is higher priced.

You've never haggled a price other than what the manufacturer offers? Doubtful. 

Don't manufacturers advertise "starting at" prices? They're not baiting and switching unless the dealerships themselves are showing one price but it's really another price. 

[ccap41]

Pulled directly from manufacturers' websites. 

[balthazar]

The definition of 'bait & switch' is; they'd have to advertise a specific vehicle at a specific price, then once you engage with that dealer asking about that vehicle, it's "unavailable" and they push you towards another, higher-priced vehicle.  That's 'bait & switch'.

A dealer clearly advertising a vehicle at -say- $10K over the sticker price is NOT 'baiting & switching', that vehicle is right there, available, with the price clearly stated & they'll gladly sell it to you, so there's obviously no scenario requiring 'cracking down'.  If you pay it, you agreed to it.

Anyone who has a major issue with a market adjustment upward should decline all market adjustments downward, including OEM rebates and dealer money off.  Otherwise, that person is denying the OEM their 'fair price' (by the same arbitrary metric).  Otherwise it's 2 people doing the same thing; trying to make the best deal for themselves.

[balthazar]

I wonder how folk with huge issues over market adjustments remedy the fact that the OEMs sometimes have $15 or even $20 grand pure profit baked into that "fair" MSRP. ?