Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[oldshurst442]

Its high...for what Quebec is.  And  with what the world had to deal with in 2020.  Quebec citizens are not exactly wealthy like say...parts of California...

• Up from 5.8% in 2019
• It was 3.5% in 2018
• Quebec wanted 100 000 plug-ins and BEVs by 2020.  Quebec missed that figure by 8000. 92 000 units sold.  Not so bad considering Covid put a halt on many Quebecois' revenue...                                                                   https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-narrowly-misses-goal-of-100000-electric-vehicles-on-the-road-1.5856007
• for 2021, sales of plug-ins and BEVs are down in Quebec and in Canada, but that is because of Covid still

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210422/dq210422e-eng.htm

• however, Quebec accounts for nearly 50% of zero emissions car sales in Canada...  (same link as above)

 

But the MOST important thing though, regarding ICEVs and BEVs.  Quebecois are very indifferent about the future of ICEVs (in general) and Id say the majority of the people are in FAVOUR of BEVs.  What we might NOT want is a LAW FORCING us to switch to BE.  But we arent exactly opposed to switching to BEVs on our own anyway... 

We are skeptical as a society on how the logistics to get there will happen as we dont see any REAL changes as of yet. But again, we arent exactly crying for the internal combustion engine going away...even as soon as 2035...

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

From the 92 000 units sold link:  (the above paragragh that I didnt post suggests that Covid really didnt affect car sales. But that was probably early in the pandemic) 

Quote

 

For Poëti, the real problem is most folks can't afford an electric car. 

"People who have [an electric car], they're men who are on average 46 years old," he said. "Their salary ranges between $70,000 and $80,000."

Among the other factors that may have curbed consumers' enthusiasm in recent years: a relatively modest number of charging stations, Quebec's sprawling geography and electric cars' limited range, which decreases during episodes of extreme cold, said Poëti. 

"I can't bring Gaspésie closer to Quebec and I can't bring Abitibi closer to Montreal," he said.

 

 

Issues that North Americans in general have about BEVs.  Quebecois are not so different.  

BUT...Quebecois are not afraid to switch to BEVs.

Proved by the 6.8% figure which Im assuming is higher than MOST parts of North America. For the fact that Zero-emissions vehicles sold in Quebec account about 50% of the total in Canada.  

And as VW and Chevrolet, (and Ford and Honda and Hyundai...) will come out with REAL affordable EVs in the next 2-3 years, and charging times and range will improve and MORE charging stations will be available to bring Gaspésie closer to Québec and Abitibi closer to Montréal, that 6.8% figure will be substantially higher by 2028, 2029, 2030, 2031, 2032, 2033, 2034, 2035...

 

[balthazar]

Canada as a whole was 3.5% market share in '20, the U.S. was 1.8%. Quite basically; that's in the same small basket from where I sit.

Quebec from '19>'20 gained 1.0% marketshare. I don't expect you'll see more than a 2.5% gain per year, and don't forget- as the pool accumulates, each percentage point takes a larger & larger volume to accomplish. At 3.5%, Canada needs to find the other 96.5% of buyers.

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

doesnt even mention the new generation battery tech that ALLOWS for fast charging that WILL be on the EVs as soon as 2021-2022.

How would a study done even yesterday account for FUTURE technology? 

[ykX]

25% of Mazda’s New Cars Will Be Electric by 2030, But a Straight-Six Is Still in the Works

"As part of its commitment to be carbon-neutral by 2050, a quarter of all Mazda vehicles will be electric, and and every remaining car it makes will have some sort of electrified element by 2030. This means full EVs, plug-in hybrids, or regular hybrids.

It's going to be bringing out five mild-hybrid models, five plug-in hybrid models, and three additional electric models from 2022 to 2025. But that's just the start of it; it's also building an EV-specific version of Skyactiv that will be launched between 2025 and 2030 and will be a scalable platform for pretty much any EV."

25% of Mazda’s New Cars Will Be Electric by 2030, But a Straight-Six Is Still in the Works (thedrive.com)

[oldshurst442]

True ^^^

But Quebec makes its own laws.  A Quebec ban on ICE where the sale of new ICEVs by 2035 is relegated to Quebec only.  It only affects the citizens of Quebec. 

And if going by your 2.5% increase in increments, by 2035, 39% of Quebec's population would own an EV?

For Quebec?  Yeah...39% seems doable.  Even by BEFORE 2035 as I stated above.  Quebecois are not hung up on that idea.  Are not really crying over the disappearance of ICEVs.  Are quite acceptant of BEVs. 

Like the link states:

The reasons why Quebecois are buying them up slowly is not because they are hesitant of the tech, or because they are dependent on fossil fuels for electricity and they are caught up in a "moral" argument of what pollutes less, fossil fuel electricity to charge the filthy battery but reasons:

1. price.   BEVs are still out of reach for regular families. But Hyundai Konas and Tesla Model 3s are quite common.   When really affordable BEVs are on the market, Quebecois WILL buy them.  The argument can go if and when BEVs become truly affordable.  We dont know when that will happen, but as far as Quebec goes...WHEN it does, Quebecois WILL buy them...

2. Charging stations...not enough of them.  Well that is kinda false in a way. 

a) In the big cities of Montreal and Quebec, charging stations ARE around. Enough of them for the size of OUR TOTAL population and our TOTAL car pool.  And only MORE of them are being erected each and passing day...

b) the dude mentions that Quebec has a sprawling geography and its hard for people from Gaspesie to travel to Quebec and Abitibi to Montreal with BEVs as there are virtually NO charging stations. And he is CORRECT. 

But...2 things.

Have you seen where Abitibi is?

Its out in the middle of phoquing nowhere. If Clark Griswold crashed his family truckster in the desert and walked a few miles, crossed paths with a couple of natives that called him an asshole, to find a garage station to fix his suspension  and install 4 bald tires that cost him all his pocket money, well...in Abitibi, he would have to travel MONTHS (exaggeration) to find ANY resemblance of civilization... 

There simply is not enough people living there to justify ANY charging stations...as of yet.  Id like to see what are new car sales in Abitibi to see what the phoque is he talking about crying about charging stations and the lack there of up North like that... 

Gaspesie is another thing... He may be right about that one. But Quebec has invested millions and continue to do so in putting up charging stations ALL over Quebec.  There will be enough charging stations in Gaspesie, in Abitibi, in Chibougamou eventually.  Quebec is committed.  The ENTIRE province is committed from the Provincial level all the way to the small town municipalities where the populations are thin thin thin...

The Mayor of Montreal and Quebec city are all on board. Their successors are too...  

The citizens want a change...

The all local businesses dont seem to mind. Hey...to install a charger, the government pays us a substantial amount to do so...AND we get tax credits for it too...   DOUBLE WHAMMY.  And lord knows Quebec businesses need tax breaks of any kind...

3. cold weather battery depletion is not really THAT big of a concern for Quebecois. I talk to many folk with EVs and they never seem to bring that up.  I do live in the suburbs and these EV owners DO own a house/condo and these owners DO have a charger hooked up at their home...       If I did my talking to folk that actually lived in the city, Id probably have a different answer.  But cold weather battery depletion is like range anxiety.  They are both connected because battery depletion LEADS to range anxiety. But we've talked about THAT ad nauseum. 

a) new tech batteries that are coming in the next few months/next year or two have that problem fixed at a minimum loss and the newer tech batteries that are 5-6 years away will have eliminated that.

b) charging stations are being erected at a fast pace in Quebec. Wont be a problem to find a charging station if you need one...

c) charging times with new tech batteries and new tech charging stations will be considerably lower than what it is now...  One wont have to charge 5 minutes here and there for 5 pit stops or charge for 1 hour at 1 pit stop... And THAT is in the very near future...

d) Most Quebecois dont travel looooong distances in the winter anyway. Especially to far away places like Abitibi for battery depletion to be a very big problem.   Many do ski, but Mont Avila, Saint Sauveur and Tremblant are not THAT far away and there are plenty of businesses around WITH chargers and although I havent been skiing for a looong time, Im not gonna be surprised to find out that there are charging stations at the ski entrances...

Ski for an hour or two....charge your EV and gain a few precious miles to get back home regardless of baterry depletion or not while you are skiing....    Couldnt charge your EV because none of the chargers were available?

HA! Quebecois after they ski, they eat out in restaurants...some restaurant chains like St-Hubert BBQ Chicken have chargers at their local.  Stop. Eat. Piss and charge your BEV...

Therefore, with THAT so called problem, Quebecois dont seem to whine about it constantly and use it as a weapon to vilify BEVs...  

 

 

[oldshurst442]

47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

How would a study done even yesterday account for FUTURE technology? 

1. because battery tech has changed in the last 3 years.  The Model S Plaid as an example.  Its batteries are different from a decade ago giving the Plaid MORE range. Price is another story.

And will change even more in the following 3.  This is where GM's Ultium batteries come in and where GM will put them in truly affordable Chevys in the next 6 years... 

2. Charging tech has changed and GROWN since the last 3 years. ESPECIALLY in California where as compared to Quebec and even we dont whine about that...

The dude in MY link complains about not enough of them in Abiti-phoquing-bi Temiscamingue 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitibi-Témiscamingue

Abitibi-Témiscamingue (French pronunciation: [abitibi temiskamɛ̃ɡ]) is an administrative region located in western Québec, Canada, along the border with Ontario. It became part of the province in 1898. It has a land area of 57,736.50 square kilometres (22,292.19 sq mi) and its population was 146,717 people as of the 2016 Census.^[

 

Out in the middle of phoquing nowhere...

And as stated, these Californians didnt have access to a charger. In 2018.  As chargers become MORE available in gas stations and are as abundant as gas stations to which California wants to achieve, its OLD NEWS.  NOT APPLICABLE.   

The situation of 2018 is VASTLY different in California in 2021 regarding this and will only be even MORE different in 2024.    From 2018 to 2024...is a BIG difference where THAT data is IRRELAVANT... 

If you dont think so...kudos for you.  

But take a pause and think about it before you shoot me down on a whim.  

 

In other words to answer your question...

Data has to be translated with NO PHOQUING BIAS taking into account HOW AND WHERE the technology is HEADING...

(and this technology and situation is changing pretty quickly...)

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

31 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Hyundai Konas and Tesla Model 3s are quite common.   

3.5% is nothing remotely like “quite common”. Imagine if 3.5% of people coming thru your restaurant door/calling actually ordered any food.  Now add in everyone else in the city never contacting your restaurant yet still eating food (existing vehicle owners).

[oldshurst442]

OK...do a search and see how many full sized pick-up truck represent in Quebec.

Do another and see where the pony cars fit in... 

[ccap41]

30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

And as stated, these Californians didnt have access to a charger. In 2018.  As chargers become MORE available in gas stations and are as abundant as gas stations to which California wants to achieve, its OLD NEWS.  NOT APPLICABLE.   

Per the article I linked.

"Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace.

 

Public charging stations may look like the electric version of the gas station, but nearly two-thirds of PEV drivers in the survey said they didn't use them. Exactly why they didn't use the public stalls was not specified.

EVs have come a long way in recent years in terms of range, safety, comfort, and tech features, but Hardman and Tal note that very little has changed in terms of how they are recharged."

There was no mention of lack of public chargers. Also, there isn't nearly the cost savings when charging in public. 

30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. because battery tech has changed in the last 3 years.  The Model S Plaid as an example.  Its batteries are different from a decade ago giving the Plaid MORE range. Price is another story.

What EXACTLY is different in battery technology in 2021 EVs vs 2018 EVs? 

Edited June 18, 2021 by ccap41

[oldshurst442]

I guess...you are reading that article with a BIASED view AGAINST EVs...

 

1. folk didnt have access to level 2 charging at home.

2. hassle to charge at a public charger

3. failure of article to state what was a hassle...

4. one has to assume 

a) charging times too long

b) hard to find a public charger that is 

i) available to use

ii) in good working order

iii) etc

5. I came to a conclusion that MORE public chargers that are at every corner LIKE a gasoline station is a VIABLE solution to which Norway is trying to do. California and Quebec as well... Couple that with charging times dropping in the NEXT 3 years and even faster charging times in the FOLLOWING 3 years... to accommodate the 

 FOLK THAT CANT ACCESS TO A LEVEL 2 CHARGING SYSTEM AT HOME...

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

but...BECASUE technology in battery tech is changing pretty quickly and charging times and range is also a problem that engineers WANT to address and ARE doing so..

THAT survey that was done in 2018 really has no teeth in 2021...  It got OUTDATED. 

Charging times in 2018 were longer BECAUSE not all public chargers had level 2 charging.  Not ALL BEVs had level 2 charging capabilities...

Going forward...is THAT STILL a problem for 2021?

For 2024?

A new problem HAS arose:

FUNCTIONAL charging stations...

Will THAT be a deterrent in 2021 for folk that dont have access to level 2 charging at home?

In 2024?

I know one thing, if finding working charging stations CONTINUE to be a problem in 2021 and 2022...then the United States of America is one useless dump of a country...

And yes I mean it that way... NO APOLOGIES.

If Greece could manage a working EV system...then there is NO phoquing excuse for the US...

 

 

 

[ccap41]

39 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I guess...you are reading that article with a BIASED view AGAINST EVs...

No. 

Just the fact that not everybody has fallen in love with them once they've lived with them. That's it. 

We don't buy the same exact vehicle/configuration every time with ICE. Why is it surprising that somebody who bought an EV wasn't 100% satisfied with their EV? 

41 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. folk didnt have access to level 2 charging at home.

Yes, that's something people either have to adapt to or charge publicly. It's their choice to spend the money to install a home charger or not. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain California has not had an issue with public chargers for quite a long time. 

 

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

THAT survey that was done in 2018 really has no teeth in 2021...  It got OUTDATED. 

So what exactly has changed in the three years?

Batteries are still lithium-ion, there aren't a whole lot of different EV options, and level 2 charging is still level 2 charging. 

[oldshurst442]

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Just the fact that not everybody has fallen in love with them once they've lived with them. That's it. 

EXACTLY!

You just throw FALSE information at EVERY turn trying to DENOUNCE.

The thing is...you cant FOOL and LIE your TRUE intentions concerning EVs...

Just ADMIT it that you dont like EVs and STOP trying to insult MINE and everyone elses intelligence with phoquery! 

There is NOTHING wrong with you NOT wanting to adapt to EVs. JUST STOP being a COWARD and ADMIT it.

It took several posts...but I got you to admit it when your phoquery wouldnt go any further...

I had to insult your country to do so even...before I got the TRUTH out of you...

Why do you feel the need to lie about your view on EVs?

If its really about the information regarding EVs, then STOP reading the MISINFORMATION and INFORM yourself CORRECTLY and use your brain...

But if its because you are so dead set about EVs...then there is NOTHING wrong with that! 

Just stop the phoquery....

31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, that's something people either have to adapt to or charge publicly. It's their choice to spend the money to install a home charger or not. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain California has not had an issue with public chargers for quite a long time. 

yeah...well...the article didnt make that clear, did it!?

THAT article would be an example of MISINFORMATION...

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So what exactly has changed in the three years?

Batteries are still lithium-ion, there aren't a whole lot of different EV options, and level 2 charging is still level 2 charging. 

A lot.

PLENTY of examples in just the last few days posted in these threads.

If you MUST know...do your own analysis. 

Just stop the phoquery...

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

EXACTLY!

You just throw FALSE information at EVERY turn trying to DENOUNCE.

The thing is...you cant FOOL and LIE your TRUE intentions concerning EVs...

Just ADMIT it that you dont like EVs and STOP trying to insult MINE and everyone elses intelligence with phoquery! 

There is NOTHING wrong with you NOT wanting to adapt to EVs. JUST STOP being a COWARD and ADMIT it.

It took several posts...but I got you to admit it when your phoquery wouldnt go any further...

I had to insult your country to do so even...before I got the TRUTH out of you...

Why do you feel the need to lie about your view on EVs?

If its really about the information regarding EVs, then STOP reading the MISINFORMATION and INFORM yourself CORRECTLY and use your brain...

But if its because you are so dead set about EVs...then there is NOTHING wrong with that! 

Just stop the phoquery....

What was false? 20% of people in California switched back to ICE. 

Also, I've said MULTIPLE times that I am absolutely NOT against EVs. They have their place but they are not a god to be bowed down to, like some treat them. 

I'm pretty sure I've even said one of the cheapy older ones with <100 of range would be a great vehicle for around town when they hit the used market for like 3-5k. 

17 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

yeah...well...the article didnt make that clear, did it!?

THAT article would be an example of MISINFORMATION...

It also did not say there were zero public chargers. Those people who bought an electric car absolutely knew where public chargers were located. 

Plenty of chargers in California in 2018. 

https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/charging-stations-by-state/

 

[ccap41]

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

A lot.

PLENTY of examples in just the last few days posted in these threads.

If you MUST know...do your own analysis. 

Just stop the phoquery...

You mentioned ONE Vehicle, Model S Plaid. Until 2021, were there more than a couple released in 2019 and 2020? 

[G. David Felt]

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not for most folk it isn't. Incremental, evolutionary change has happened, not revolutionary. 

A 2019 Microsoft analysis found 162 million Americans didn't have broadband internet access. An entity called BroadBandNow in '20 pegged it closer to 42 million. No one is completely sure.

Point being; change takes time, and if you think charging scenarios are vastly different than 2020 (the date the report was released) to now, I'd question that hard.

As current data is showing just from 2020 to 2021, public charging grew 30% and is expected to explode this year. This is High Power Chargers not slow level 1 or 2.

High Power Charger for Electric Vehicle Market | 2020-2027 | Industry Report | Covid Insights (mordorintelligence.com)

Here, yes they use China but the data shows from 2018 to 2020 onboard charging to speed up from hours to minutes grew big time with much more models available for sale.

Global Electric Vehicle On Board Charger Market 2021-2026 | June 2021 Updated (mobilityforesights.com)

Just from 2018 to 2019, the data shows public chargers available grew 90%.

The point being is the study from 2012 to 2018 is OLD DATA, OUT OF DATE DATA due to how fast things are changing.

EV Charging Station Statistics in US, UK, & Europe [2021] (muchneeded.com)

Posting a story such as Business Insider as a New study when it is based on 3 year old and older data rather than current data which I consider to be the last 2 to 3 years is OLD DATA. Leases usually run 2 or 3 years. The story that @ccap41 posted should have been based on current trade-in of EVs to see how many actually did go back to ICE. That would be a current valid study rather than based on a study released at the start of 2019 based on data from 2012 to 2018.

IMHO.

I want to state, I am not attacking anyone here, just a bit of frustration at the piss poor journalism showing clear lack of research by the posted story writer.

Electric Vehicle Charger Market by Vehicle Type (Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV), Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV), and Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV)), Charging Type (On-board Chargers, and Off-board Chargers), and End User (Residential and Commercial): Global Opportunity Analysis and Industry Forecast, 2020-2027 (valuates.com)

Electric Car Statistics and Facts 2021 | Policy Advice

I ACKNOWLDEGE that ICE will be around for a long time and even EVAdoption study shows that by 2030, 20 million additional ICE auto's will be on the road while BEVs continue to grow.

2030: 20 Million More ICE Vehicles Will Be on the Roads in the US Than in 2021 – EVAdoption

Some very good data in these latest reports.

Scheduled introduction of EVs.

Sales now and projected.

Some very good data in this newest report on the auto industry.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, David said:

Posting a story such as Business Insider as a New study when it is based on 3 year old and older data rather than current data which I consider to be the last 2 to 3 years is OLD DATA.

You literally just said 3 years is "current data". 2021 - 2018 = 3.

[ccap41]

34 minutes ago, David said:

Well, it's not very accurate. Ford has the Mach E, Escape plug-in and Lincoln has the plug-in Aviator & Corsair. That's just one company, how many others are wrong? 

Edited June 18, 2021 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You literally just said 3 years is "current data". 2021 - 2018 = 3.

Yes, 3 years is considered current but the story is using data from 2012 to 2018, that is longer than 3 years and very outdated in an area that is changing monthly. While things can be inaccurate in all study data with errors, there are newer studies done that Business Insider writer should have looked at than a study from the early days of EVs.

JMHO

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Well, it's not very accurate. Ford has the Mach E, Escape plug-in and Lincoln has the plug-in Aviator and Corsair. That's just one company, how many others are wrong? 

I didn't mean to quote myself, meant to edit previous comment. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by ccap41

[balthazar]

All the chargers are in CA, quite a ride from… any other state. NJ has 846 chargers for 9 million people.

2 hours ago, David said:

public charging grew 30%

3 + 30% = 4.  Percentages here are misleading.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

very outdated in an area that is changing monthly.

drips & drabs. 

[G. David Felt]

Seems we are looking at some enhancements to the Lithium Ion batteries finally going into production.

Charged EVs | Ultra-high purity lithium salt, LiFSI, facilitates high performance in advanced battery technology - Charged EVs

Lithium Salt seem to make performance, age, density, etc. so much better.

(2) Arkema Batteries: Overview | LinkedIn

Battery Solutions by Arkema | Arkema.com

[G. David Felt]

Honda S2000 is right up there as a rally car that people love much like the Mazda Miata. Recent prices for the used S2000 market have the prices on the rise for the High Revving 4 cylinder 2 door sports car.

Rain Prisk, an designer decided it was time to envision what a Modern Honda S2000 would look like on the gm Ultium platform.

What are your thoughts on this design for an AWD BEV sports car?

Would the auto market embrace RWD/AWD sports cars?

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/rainprisk/photos/a.690277364396394/4008193479271416/?type=3

 

[balthazar]

I may have seen 1 S2000 in the last 10 years. Of course, they’re too bland for me to notice.

[G. David Felt]

47 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I may have seen 1 S2000 in the last 10 years. Of course, they’re too bland for me to notice.

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

[Robert Hall]

Just now, David said:

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

Neighbor down the street has a silver one that comes out in nice weather.  Neat car, too bad Honda didn’t evolve it. 

[oldshurst442]

I do not know what the automotive world would think of a RWD/AWD roadster EV of the likes of a modern S2000 or if Toyota and Subaru would join in and make their 86/BRZ into a Honda competitor.

What I do know is what I think of it. And THAT rendering above is quite an appealing package.  Its niiiiiice! 

Now...imagine if GM could also offer one as a new Solstice/Sky as a Buick...or as a baby Corvette?!

Ill use the coupe from Pontiac and the roadster from Saturn as the Sky was never offered that coupe style...

Edited June 22, 2021 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I do not know what the automotive world would think of a RWD/AWD roadster EV of the likes of a modern S2000 or if Toyota and Subaru would join in and make their 86/BRZ into a Honda competitor.

What I do know is what I think of it. And THAT rendering above is quite an appealing package.  Its niiiiiice! 

Now...imagine if GM could also offer one as a new Solstice/Sky as a Buick...or as a baby Corvette?!

Ill use the coupe from Pontiac and the roadster from Saturn as the Sky was never offered that coupe style...

Agree, I think the artist really did a nice job on a future S2000 car.

[ykX]

14 hours ago, David said:

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

A lot of them at autocross and track day events.  Still one of the best driving sports cars.  Prices on used ones are crazy.

One of the reasons it was so good is it was light.  Not sure BEV version will be as good due to the battery weight.  Another reason it is so desirable - it has one of the greatest manual transmissions.  That will be lost too in BEV.

Edited June 23, 2021 by ykX

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ykX said:

A lot of them at autocross and track day events.  Still one of the best driving sports cars.  Prices on used ones are crazy.

One of the reasons it was so good is it was light.  Not sure BEV version will be as good due to the battery weight.  Another reason it is so desirable - it has one of the greatest manual transmissions.  That will be lost too in BEV.

I honestly think manual is overrated. Distraction from driving aggressively on curvy roads.

[ykX]

18 minutes ago, David said:

I honestly think manual is overrated. Distraction from driving aggressively on curvy roads.

Said not one car enthusiast ever.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Said not one car enthusiast ever.

I am the One!, Love racing, Love aggressive driving, Enjoyed when I was younger the shifting thing for a while, but honestly, a dual clutch paddle shift or just total auto is fine as they are faster than manual and once focused on attacking the road/course, the shifting thing is not even a thought.

[ccap41]

On a track, I get what David is saying but it certainly is NOT a distraction from driving the other 99.9% of the time, on public roads. 

17 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

They gave that thing damn-near FWD proportions up front. The wheels are pushed too far inward by like 6 inches. 

[ykX]

Almost all racing cars have manual or semi-manual transmissions, obviously that is not a distraction for racing drivers.  And since racing is about getting that extra 0.1% to be faster, it is still faster then automatics.  Except for drag racing, but that's different.

On the road, every true enthusiast have no issues shifting, if you do it long enough it comes automatically, you definitely don't need to think about it, but absolutely enhances the pleasure of driving.    

Edited June 23, 2021 by ykX

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, ykX said:

Almost all racing cars have manual or semi-manual transmissions, obviously that is not a distraction for racing drivers.  And since racing is about getting that extra 0.1% to be faster, it is still faster then automatics.  Except for drag racing, but that's different.

On the road, every true enthusiast have no issues shifting, if you do it long enough it comes automatically, you definitely don't need to think about it, but absolutely enhances the pleasure of driving.    

I will disagree with you that Manual is faster than automatics in racing. I also would challenge that all drivers enjoy the pleasure of manuals. I grew up driving manual from age of 12 till my mid 30's and when you live in a mountainous area, hills are not easy for many people with manuals. Eventually one moves to automatic over manual and even hard core enthusiasts will have some that prefer automatic over manual. 

I am one of those enthusiasts that have had more than enough manual and no desire to go back ever. 

I will admit that the 3 on the tree in my 69 camper special F250 was a blast to drive and a great leg workout.  

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

On a track, I get what David is saying but it certainly is NOT a distraction from driving the other 99.9% of the time, on public roads. 

They gave that thing damn-near FWD proportions up front. The wheels are pushed too far inward by like 6 inches. 

Is it me or does that S2000 have some BMW style to it? Seems to remind me of a BMW 2 door, but cannot think of the specific model right now.

[ccap41]

Nothing surprises me about David defending automatics.

[ykX]

24 minutes ago, David said:

I am one of those enthusiasts that have had more than enough manual and no desire to go back ever. 

You drive trucks, and I am not sure when, if ever you drove a proper sports car with proper manual transmission.  So lets agree to disagree on that part.

24 minutes ago, David said:

I will disagree with you that Manual is faster than automatics in racing.

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

Edited June 23, 2021 by ykX

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, ykX said:

You drive trucks, and I am not sure when, if ever you drove a proper sports car with proper manual transmission.  So lets agree to disagree on that part.

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

I was a teen at one time though still 6'6" tall was only 225lbs so I could fold up into the race cars my dad and I built out of Camaro's in his shop.

Agree to disagree, Agreed!  

[ccap41]

NASCAR still uses a full-on manual transmission. 

[balthazar]

Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, ykX said:

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

If it is so much faster than a automatic, then why did Formula 1 remove full auto transmissions, along with lunch and traction control, almost 15 years ago so that drivers would not have an unfair advantage? Clearly someone thought having an automatic had an advantage. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

And lets just skip the part where NASCAR drivers don’t even have to use the clutch pedal to shift. Not exactly “old school” driving there, much like the sequential ones touted are “old school” manuals. If it doesn’t involved BOTH the left foot and the right hand to shift, then it’s not a true manual IMO.

[ykX]

13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And lets just skip the part where NASCAR drivers don’t even have to use the clutch pedal to shift. Not exactly “old school” driving there, much like the sequential ones touted are “old school” manuals. If it doesn’t involved BOTH the left foot and the right hand to shift, then it’s not a true manual IMO.

Definition of automatic transmission

: a system in a vehicle that changes gears at different speeds without direct control by the driver.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[ykX]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

Exactly.

At one point Randy Pobst at Motor Trend tested two version of Camaro ZL1 on track: 10 speed automatic and the six speed.  He was slightly faster in the manual car.

How Did A Manual Chevy Camaro ZL1 Beat The 10-Speed Automatic Version? | CarBuzz

Also, while ultimately today's automatic transmissions are faster shifting and more efficient, driving a good car with manual transmission on a fun road is a great pleasure.  That's why Porsche, BMW, Ford, GM, Honda and Mazda still sell their sports cars with manual transmissions.  Because. there are still plenty of enthusiasts who appreciate the experience and control it gives.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, ykX said:

Exactly.

At one point Randy Pobst at Motor Trend tested two version of Camaro ZL1 on track: 10 speed automatic and the six speed.  He was slightly faster in the manual car.

How Did A Manual Chevy Camaro ZL1 Beat The 10-Speed Automatic Version? | CarBuzz

Also, while ultimately today's automatic transmissions are faster shifting and more efficient, driving a good car with manual transmission on a fun road is a great pleasure.  That's why Porsche, BMW, Ford, GM, Honda and Mazda still sell their sports cars with manual transmissions.  Because. there are still plenty of enthusiasts who appreciate the experience and control it gives.

Yes, Nothing wrong with having a manual transmission, enjoy the final days as the future I see is one where the public will not want manual. IMHO.

[ykX]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, Nothing wrong with having a manual transmission, enjoy the final days as the future I see is one where the public will not want manual. IMHO.

Not necessarily

Who Will Build the First Manual Transmission Electric Enthusiast’s Car? (automobilemag.com)

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, ykX said:

Not necessarily

Who Will Build the First Manual Transmission Electric Enthusiast’s Car? (automobilemag.com)

Interesting read, but as they point out, current EVs outsell Manuals and with manuals being less than 1.1% of auto sales and reducing, manuals will be very expensive. Yes, Polestar and Porsche and the Italian garbage badges will probably stick with having a manual to give the dwindling group of Manual drivers their desire at an expensive cost. Long term I still see manual pretty much being dead by the time I am dead too.  

[oldshurst442]

There are many different types of automotive enthusiasts.

BECAUSE one is not enamored with manual transmissions and one does NOT enjoying shifting gears does not lessen that person's credibility of being an automotive enthusiast.

 

The video above...shows how awesome it is to shift one's own gears...on a wallowing muscle car. 

No doubt...its AWESOME!!!

1. In the context of these past posts, the conversation is leading us to believe that changing our own gears makes for faster cornering as we  control the gear we want entering and exiting corners.  While true...

a) in the video...there are no such corners. Making me question why in the world would we want to row our own gears on relatively straight roads?  On public, traffic filled roads...kinda useless shifting our own gears...

b) the Trans Am in question above wallows like a bastard. Its hardly a track car...  Me thinks an automatic would do wonders for it on the track as BOTH hands would be on the steering wheel possibly eliminating the possibility of wallowing off track all the while concentrating on where to actually steer the car instead of fighting the wallowing...   

2. Although it is awesome that we can row our own gears in THAT Trans Am, especially with the awesome aural sounds we get as we change those gears up and down, we actually DO get the SAME awesome sounds with an automatic...

 

3.  Is it more engaging to shift one own's gears?  Quite possible. Yes...Id say even.  But if a car enthusiast is more of a cruising type of guy, driving becomes of a DIFFERENT type of engagement with your surroundings...

Instead of "driving" on the Pacific Coast Highway shifting gears enjoying the drive, one is DRIVING on the Pacific Coast Highway enjoying the scenery...

Instead of racing the engine and hearing the revs while shifting gears on a boulevard, one could be cruising, listening to the engine sounds anyway, but CRUISING down a boulevard enjoying the drive.  

I would be the one to be cruising...and when I need to make a pass on some dipshyte, I just mash the peddle and my incredibly low RPMed, high torqued muscle car could do the rest...and I could STILL enjoy the sounds the engine makes...

Yeah...I do not like shifting my own gears either. But THAT does NOT make me less of a car enthusiast... 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by oldshurst442