Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[balthazar]

16 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

(not to mention illustrating how using an engine from one brand to put into the car of another brand isn’t a big deal)

Blasphemy! ?

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

https://electrek.co/2021/03/12/nissan-leaf-battery-packs-ending-up-in-robots-helping-build-electric-cars/

 

 

bump

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Blasphemy! ?

Yet it has been done for decades while certain folks folks think that EV mods are killing brand loyalty, which is a joke btw. That was part of my point to the disillusioned here.

 

And come on @ocnblu, tell us more about that “brand loyalty” you clearly don’t follow yourself. Seems like your brand loyalty policy is right up with their with your “buy American” policies you have espoused for years here (and we all know how that has turned out). All of your down votes do not change the truth. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by surreal1272

[A Horse With No Name]

On 3/7/2021 at 11:43 AM, balthazar said:

^ Because it has a 4.5' bed. 

Ranger is now the size of an F-150 of 20 years ago (unfortunately).
Ranger wheelbase is 127", Rivian is 136", an F-150 CC/5.5 is 145".
Rivian would be closer to 142" with a 5.5' bed.

My Ranger is about the ideal size...seriously....

Electric airplane...

https://samchui.com/2021/03/11/rolls-royce-and-tecnam-to-deliver-all-electric-passenger-aircraft-in-2026/#.YE9Z12hKiUl

[balthazar]

 

8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Yet it has been done for decades while certain folks folks think that EV mods are killing brand loyalty, which is a joke btw. That was part of my point to the disillusioned here.

Aren't you talking about private owners?

If -hypothetically- there's 1 BE skateboard under 20 different brands' sedans, is there any 'need' for 20 brands anymore?
Don't buyers chose different brands based on how numerous criteria are different between choices? 

Look at (if you will) the disastrous move NASCAR did by mass-homogenization of the race car- Toyota's running an IBC V8 they never built for the street. NASCAR made it 'all about the drivers' when it was always all about the sum of the driver & CAR.

I'm not talking about the OEM-centric efficiency of sharing expensive BE skateboards ... OEM's have been sliding increasing percentages of components to vendors for years... but at least you have corporation-specific major components done in-house. For now.

 

[surreal1272]

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

Aren't you talking about private owners?

If -hypothetically- there's 1 BE skateboard under 20 different brands' sedans, is there any 'need' for 20 brands anymore?
Don't buyers chose different brands based on how numerous criteria are different between choices? 

Look at (if you will) the disastrous move NASCAR did by mass-homogenization of the race car- Toyota's running an IBC V8 they never built for the street. NASCAR made it 'all about the drivers' when it was always all about the sum of the driver & CAR.

I'm not talking about the OEM-centric efficiency of sharing expensive BE skateboards ... OEM's have been sliding increasing percentages of components to vendors for years... but at least you have corporation-specific major components done in-house. For now.

 

As Olds pointed out, with examples, this homogenization has been going on for decades. What was the point of GM having a Cavalier, a Sunfire, and a Cimmaron? Additionally, this skateboard platform is no different than the platform sharing that has occurred among and between companies for decades as well. NASCAR is a poor example because is a sport and not something made for you and me so it has nothing to do with private ownership or consumer level homogenization. It merely provides entertainment and as such, they can make any rules they want. If we want to go there, then I should point out that NASCARs moves haven’t stopped drivers like Jimmy Johnson from dominating for years so it is still about the driver, which is how it should be.

Edited March 15, 2021 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

but at least you have corporation-specific major components done in-house.

A distinction without a difference

End result is the same

Like the NASCAR sticker cars that GM sold on the street all with the same DOHC 3.4 liter V6.  Just the suspension tuning was done differently to achieve different levels of corporate brand identity.  All had different dashboards to achieve another level of corporate brand identity.   The outer shell was made to look and feel different from the other corporate brands. 

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If -hypothetically- there's 1 BE skateboard under 20 different brands' sedans, is there any 'need' for 20 brands anymore?
Don't buyers chose different brands based on how numerous criteria are different between choices? 

And...you would be correct. As GM lost 2 out of those 3 brands. 

And about brand loyalty...   I guess its there.  With leasing its a lot less prevalent.  

But...as GM tuned the suspension differently from the Lumina Z34 from the Pontiac GP GTP DOHC 3.4 from the Olds Cutlass Supreme DOHC 3.4 and had a different dashboard and outer shell...

AND

GM had slightly tuned engine differences with suspension differences between their 3rd and 4rth gen Camaros and Firebirds 

What difference does it make how many BEV skateboards are being sold to different OEMs for each OEM to tune THEIR same BEV skateboard to achieve a difference from the others?

Further more, GM will be doing EXACTLY that within their own corporation with their own BEV platform that will be sold as a Chevy, Buick, GMC and Cadillac.  Each brand will tune their own electric motor and suspension while having different ranges and acceleration speeds and what not...

Remember, Chevrolet is (was?) its own  OEM different from Buick which was different from Cadillac and Buick is (was?) its own OEM different from Chevrolet which was different from Cadillac and Cadillac is (was?) its own OEM different from Chevrolet which was different from Buick.

Further further more

If a company just buys that one BEV skateboard platform but has its own electric motors and battery tech, isnbt that kinda the same with what GM did with its own brands with each brand producing its own engines?

If you look at the 1968-1972 GM A body, the exterior styling even looked the same...  

The pony cars from 1967-1980 all looked the same.  The 3rd gens also looked the same... 

Then we just get into the messy badge engineering stuff...

Like I said...  a distinction without a difference.

For humour and not for trolling

Time stamped...

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

You're both talking about vehicles made by the same corporation.
I'm talking about vehicles with the same structure across a dozen corporations and 3 dozen brands.
Very distinct distinction.

[oldshurst442]

Nope.

Chevrolet is its own brand.  Chevrolet was co-founded with Louis and Durant and eventually Louis sold to GM.  

Buick is its own brand.  Durant was an investor and eventually became the 1st OEM under the GM umbrella. 

GMC as it were, is its own brand.   Durant gained control of 2 Michigan area OEMs and spun them into GMC trucks. 

Cadillac is its own brand.   GM purchased the OEM in 1909. 

Chevrolet supplies corporate with the engines. At one time, each OEM, from the GM umbrella, made their own.  Their own suspensions. Their own transmissions. Their own brakes....

 GM umbrella lost many OEMs under their corporate umbrella over the years that were acquired in the same way as the other OEMs of GM's history: Oldsmobile, Opel, Oakland, SAAB, Holden or simply brands that GM created  to fill in  market voids and to conquer other markets such as  Pontiac, Lasalle and Saturn.

But to say that the existing brands of Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac (forget about GMC just because) are the same (corporation) is  disingenuous to the context of what we are talking about here with EV platform sharing across many OEMs under a different umbrella. 

If Chevrolet can and could be a different brand and OEM from Pontiac which can and could be a different brand and OEM from  Oldsmobile which can and could be a different brand and OEM from  Buick  which can and could be a different brand and OEM from Cadillac BECAUSE they make their own engines and suspensions...but even when they dont make their own suspensions and engines, BUT each brand tunes their same platforms and same engines differently... then a platform maker could sell their platform to anybody and that anybody could tune their EV platform the way they want it making it their own brand and identity.  

Distinction without a difference.

End result is the same. 

Homogenization of the automobile...no matter what corporate umbrella we fall under or whatever business model we like to choose... 

You are absolutely correct though...   No need for different brands when the bones underneath are the same.

Meaning, there is no need for Buick. or Cadillac.  Or Chevrolet in 2021 under the GM umbrella... 

End result is the same....

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

They WERE their own companies. Then they became their own companies under a parent corporation... then slowly/eventually became merely brands in name once Divisional engineering was discontinued. 

You're still only addressing an inter-Corporate scenario. Pull back farther. Come away from 1980 and 1910; look to the topic at hand- the future.

I am still addressing a scenario where audi, BMW, MB, volvo, maserati, ferrari, aston Martin all have sedans riding on the same battery-electric platform with the same performance/ range window, with the same steering & suspension. THAT is where I question the future viability of so many diffferently-badged but very similar vehicles, with (or without) needless grilles, with (attempted) significant price differences no longer tied to expensive powertrain & chassis development costs (everything else is basically the same).

[G. David Felt]

16 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

https://electrek.co/2021/03/12/nissan-leaf-battery-packs-ending-up-in-robots-helping-build-electric-cars/

This is a very cool use and shows that the battery packs have a long life even after being used in an auto. Same with the Chevrolet Volt as the battery packs are being used in everything from wall power grids to keep a home warm and functioning during electrical outages to portable power systems for a wide variety of use.

Used Chevy Volt Batteries For Off The Grid Living (greentecauto.com)

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

You're both talking about vehicles made by the same corporation.
I'm talking about vehicles with the same structure across a dozen corporations and 3 dozen brands.
Very distinct distinction.

Not really as it has already been pointed. You’re also assuming that would actually go to 3 dozen brands while there is zero chance of that actually happening. Also, diamond star motors shared platforms with AMC/Eagle, Chrysler, Dodge, Mitsubishi, and a slew of commercial rides. This is not really uncharted territory and again, it will not involve anywhere close to that many brands, as you are implying here. 

29 minutes ago, balthazar said:

They WERE their own companies. Then they became their own companies under a parent corporation... then slowly/eventually became merely brands in name once Divisional engineering was discontinued.

So they were homogenized. 

[balthazar]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:45 PM, David said:

Isreal start up that has been building a basic skateboard platform and how opened a UK development site close to 25 other OEMs as they push to get their skateboard used to build global EVs.

All my recent comments here go back to this. And this is NOT the only company pursuing this business case.

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So they were homogenized. 

Over 75 or 80 years; correct. Unfortunately; because it's never been as relevant since (the heyday).

Edited March 15, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Therefore...when Diamond Star Motors shares platforms and engines with Chryco, or when Toyota shares platforms and engines with (only) Pontiac (GM) and built in the same joint venture California plant starting with a  Toyota Corolla bones and engine  but built as a Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or when Toyota and Subaru join forces to make a sports car or when BMW and Toyota join forces to make another sports car or when Mazda sells their Miata  platform to Alfa Romeo  or when VW uses Chrysler's minivan platform or when...

the smaller sports car makers use GM's Corvette engine or AMG's V8s or V12s or Toyota's 6 cylinder (Lotus) to make their sports cars...

This has been happening loooong before battery electrics was a thing.  Like I said earlier, whether the world goes EVs or stays with the internal combustion engine, homogenization of the automobile will continue to happen and eventually a handful of platform makers will be alive.  Same with battery makers.  Or engine builders if ICE is to be kept alive. Or brake manufactures (Brembo)...

Ill repeat

A distinction without a difference.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

:shrug: sounds like the ‘appliance-conversion’ of the auto industry will suit you well. 

[Robert Hall]

There are many things.  

[balthazar]

Pancakes are transported most securely on a plate when stacked flat, as opposed to on edge.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Pancakes are transported most securely on a plate when stacked flat, as opposed to on edge.

Just make sure to include the butter and syrup please!  

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

:shrug: sounds like the ‘appliance-conversion’ of the auto industry will suit you well. 

Been in the making since...

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Over 75 or 80 years; correct. Unfortunately; because it's never been as relevant since (the heyday).

 

------------------------------------------

I have been a fan of General Motors products of the 1980s and 1990s.  So yeah...I guess appliance-conversion is my thing. 

But since we are on that discussion.

We are focused on Rivian's 4.5 foot bed, Hummer's 5 foot bed because we are focused on hauling shyte. 

We are soooooo into hauling shyte that we are solely viewing pick-up trucks AS appliances.

Yet...with Dodge as an example to show how one platform could be used differently with simple engine, suspension tuning to differentiate one from another.  To illustrate what you already know, but want to cling on to an argument that really is much ado about nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And if Dodge wanted to, they could slam it on the ground and make the TRX into what they did when SRT stuck a V10 under the hood.   

'coupe'

 

or 'sedan'

 

Again...what difference does it make if one supplier supplies a platform to multiple makers?

If the multiple makers could make something unique of their own imagination and style?

What difference does it make if

1.  a platform  by one maker is made into several itinerations by 1 brand 

2. a platform by one maker is made into several itinerations by SEVERAL brands within 1 corporation

3. a platform by one maker is made into several itinerations by several brands by several corporations?

Ive discussed this matter SEVERAL WAYS:

A DISTINCTION WITHOUT DIFFERENCE

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

I think the most important thing is who ever supplies a BEV power unit and platform is that it is safe, efficient and reliable.  

 

[balthazar]

Your Ram example is non-applicable to my statement (since you are addressing my statement). It's 1 vehicle line with a number of variants, built by 1 corporation. No one (including me) has an ounce of issue with that.

However, in a scenario (because my statement was a rhetorical scenario) where Ram, Chevy, GMC, Ford, nissan & toyoter all rode the same platform with an indistinguishably similar power output. Might as well merge all those brands into  a new "Truck" brand- because there's no competing anymore. 

[Robert Hall]

Look at all the automakers building compact CUVs with transverse 2.0 4cyls.   Would it matter if the engines/transmissions/other dirty bits all came from the same supplier?  Probably not.  It’s usually not the powertrain that distinguishes a sale of  one appliance over another, it’s the brand perception, the content/options, styling, dealer network etc. 

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Your Ram example is non-applicable to my statement (since you are addressing my statement). It's 1 vehicle line with a number of variants, built by 1 corporation. No one (including me) has an ounce of issue with that.

However, in a scenario (because my statement was a rhetorical scenario) where Ram, Chevy, GMC, Ford, nissan & toyoter all rode the same platform with an indistinguishably similar power output. Might as well merge all those brands into  a new "Truck" brand- because there's no competing anymore. 

 

Well...as you stated with GM over the course of 75-80 years.  Durant bought many OEMs.  Many were consolidated just before the war or right after with other GM brands. Others were folded outright just before the war or right after. Others toughed it out and were recent losses. 

Chryco bought out several other brands before the war and right after the war.  These brands were consolidated into the Chryco corporation only to have Chryco being bought out by another corporation that has had its own history of buying out other OEMs....   

From literarily thousands of car makers all over the world 100 years we are left with a little bit more than a handful...

We've lost a dozen in the last 20 years. All American.  (Plymouth, Mercury, Pontiac, Oldsmobile...etc...)

Only now you are worried about this?  

Been happening since waaaaay before the EV thing was ever a thing.  

Marchionne before he died said what you are fearing now.  At that time, Tesla was laughed at and was not a 'threat' to no one.  We are still laughing at Telsa...   But after all the smoke is gone, Tesla will probably be one of those that will be supplying platforms and EV drivetrains to everybody else...

There will be a day when Toyoter WILL be consolidating with either a GM or Ford...  

Honda will be using GM's EV platforms and battery tech.  Will Honda be part of the GM umbrella one day? 

The Ram thing was just to illustrate how one platform could be used SEVERAL different ways with DIFFERENT results and identities.    No matter if that one platform that I showed all happened to be Dodges.   

Toyota (and Scion) and Subaru did a shyte job of distinguishing their 86/FRS/BRZ

GM and Toyota did a shyte job of distinguishing between their Matrix/Vibe

Toyota and BMW did a satisfactory job of distinguishing between there Supra/Z4

ALL ICE vehicles BTW...

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Look at all the automakers building compact CUVs with transverse 2.0 4cyls.   Would it matter if the engines/transmissions/other dirty bits all came from the same supplier?  Probably not.  It’s usually not the powertrain that distinguishes a sale of  one appliance over another, it’s the brand perception, the content/options, styling, dealer network etc. 

GM had a hand in all that...

GM was the one to perfect brand perception and recognition.

With GM having internal competition with drivetrains across their umbrella. Pushing their FoMoCo and Chryco competiton to do the same.

 GM had a hand in consolidating all the weaker OEMs into their own umbrella.  Or out-muscling the competition and swallowing them into their umbrella.   Homologizing the industry 75-80 years ago. The start of the loooooong end.

GM also had a hand into making brand recognition more than the drivetrain part by stopping Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac make their own engines.  By forcing a corporate engine upon them.  marketing then switched to brand recognition...which they botched.  Volkswagen took that idea though and perfected it. As did Lexus and Acura.  

Then GM got too big to produce certain things on their own, which started the trend to out-source certain parts...

But here we are...we wanna lay blame the switch to EVs...

 

 

 

[ocnblu]

Balthazar is the only person in here that GETS WHAT I'M SAYING.  And he is SPOT ON.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Ram thing was just to illustrate how one platform could be used SEVERAL different ways with DIFFERENT results and identities. 

No, my friend; same identity. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

GM had a hand in consolidating all the weaker OEMs into their own umbrella.  Or out-muscling the competition and swallowing them into their umbrella.   Homologizing the industry 75-80 years ago. The start of the loooooong end.

Field was far too wide 80 years ago., both in number of marques and the range of differences between them (American Bantum > Duesenberg). There was no element of homogenization then like you are claiming. When GM was actively buying, there were hundreds of brands, not merely 7 (Chevy, GMC, Buick, Cadillac, Ford, Lincoln, Testa).

If -say- GM were to buy honda, then stick GM platforms under Honda-branded vehicles, that's -again- the same corporation. Once GM bought Elmore or CarterCar, that was within the same corporation (tho it never stuck another chassis under either). Can't make going back 80 stick. 
 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Only now you are worried about this?

And for the record, feel free to comb thru my 38K posts; I guarantee you 'll find me sincerely lamenting the demise of the American brands as they occured. I distinctly remember mourning Plymouth.

Edited March 15, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No, my friend; same identity. 

ah...no!

Same brand of truck. Not same identity of truck.  

Workhorse meant for the job site. Possibly RWD only.  I would assume RWD would be the one to have for maximim towing capabilities.  Wheels and tire combos for work duty. Not pretty etc...

Poseur truck for the lifestyle dude with machismo styling cues lifted. Capable offroader.

Luxury version. Possible all wheel drive/4 wheel drive.  Chrome accents. Meant for the luxury poseur that wont go off-roading.   

Offroading beast with the same lifestyle machismo styling cues and lifted.  

And if it were still available...on road speed demon. The least capable for hauling and off roading of all.

All different trucks. Same platform.  Engine differences between all that I posted.  One sticking point that I get is that ICE engines are the souls of vehicles.  From a standard 5.7 Hemi for work duty to a turbo cummings diesel or any other diesel for even more towing capabilities to super quiet tuned V8s for luxury duty to supercharged 700 horsepower or so enthusiast tuned. And with that to, lifted with off the charts off roading suspension with lodas of travel and skid plated to a possible stiff suspenioned, low to the ground road racer.

One platform.

Yes.  One brand.

But that one platform could be transformed into many things by anybody... 

GM does not have a TRX/Raptor competitor.

Outside firm does one.   

 

NOT the same identity as this truck.  just like none of the Rams have the same identity.  

 

GM could sell the platform to somebody and they could come up with something like that Paxpower 442 Silverado truck with different sheetmetal...   They dont even need to buy GM crate engines. They could go with Mopar crate engines. Or they could stick with GM crate engines...

An EV platform supplier (with powertrain) is just 1 step above of what AMG was doing with Mercedes cars and what RUFF is still doing with Porsche...

Ill keep on saying it...  A distinction without a difference no matter what angle you want to take this to. 

33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If -say- GM were to buy honda, then stick GM platforms under Honda-branded vehicles, that's -again- the same corporation.

Well...GM will supply skateboard platforms and battery tech to Honda without Honda being under the GM umbrella as of now.   

What difference will it BE  if Honda and GM merge 5 years from now as opposed to now as they remain two separate entities yet will share the same platforms and battery tech?  

NONE.   A distinction WITHOUT a difference...   The end result is STILL the same as Honda will be using GM platforms and battery tech either way.  

The difference will be is that Honda as its OWN entity will be able to spin its OWN identity to the platform and battery tech as opposed to a merger in which Honda will just be another shytty Chevrolet...    Non? 

You see the catch-22...

I see it.  You see it.  

We are saying the same thing, but differently.  

A distinction without a difference.  

42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

And for the record, feel free to comb thru my 38K posts; I guarantee you 'll find me sincerely lamenting the demise of the American brands as they occured. I distinctly remember mourning Plymouth.

Fair enough! 

 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

I will agree to disagree ; we are NOT "saying the same thing, differently".

Perhaps I am not making my interpretation clear, because the manner in which you are describing this scenario is not what's in my mind. 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

I will agree to disagree ; we are NOT "saying the same thing, differently".

Perhaps I am not making my interpretation clear, because the manner in which you are describing this scenario is not what's in my mind. 

No, you were very clear. He just doesn't understand it. 

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Balthazar is the only person in here that GETS WHAT I'M SAYING.  And he is SPOT ON.

And you’re both wrong in that regard but hey, if you need that kind of validation, C&G is here to help LOL. And at least Balth presents more rationale and compelling arguments, even if I don’t personally agree with them. You, on the other hand...well...never mind. I just want to hear more about this “brand loyalty” you spoke of earlier. 

[balthazar]

I personally don't have strict brand loyalty, other than buying American-company product.
I've had Fords, MoPars, but more GM than anything (and more Pontiacs than any other brand).

But I believe what ocnblu is referencing is how mass homogenization may dissolve whatever brand preferences are out there now. I can see that among those buyers who have strong preferences. There ARE hardcore Ford guys, Chevy guys, bimmer owners, etc. What I don't have any grasp on is what percent of the consumer pool that may be, but I imagine it's pretty low (10%?). I've never met anyone/ seen online where someone has stayed -say- 75% or higher with only one brand.

[surreal1272]

34 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I personally don't have strict brand loyalty, other than buying American-company product.
I've had Fords, MoPars, but more GM than anything (and more Pontiacs than any other brand).

But I believe what ocnblu is referencing is how mass homogenization may dissolve whatever brand preferences are out there now. I can see that among those buyers who have strong preferences. There ARE hardcore Ford guys, Chevy guys, bimmer owners, etc. What I don't have any grasp on is what percent of the consumer pool that may be, but I imagine it's pretty low (10%?). I've never met anyone/ seen online where someone has stayed -say- 75% or higher with only one brand.

Wasn't really speaking to your brand loyalty but to Blu since he made the statement that somehow brand loyalty matters (it really doesn't) while never seeming to practice said brand loyalty. 

 

And, as it has been pointed out, homogenization has been going down for over half a century now. EVs and their related platforms do not make this practice worse, merely a continuation of long played out event in the industry. It really isn't that big of a deal, honestly, in IMO if it means a good and reliable product for buyers (for starters anyway).

[balthazar]

 

20 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Wasn't really speaking to your brand loyalty

10-4.

- - - - -
There was probably less than 3% cross-corporate commonality going on in the auto industry 50+ years ago (circa 1965) ... and most of that was in the HD truck industry (where independent engine builders such as Continental & Hercules supplied multiple makes). And the rare exception examples in the car arena weren't long-lasting or between more than 2 players ('52 Henry J / Sears Allstate, Pontiac using a Ford 3-spd manual gearbox in '65).

I'd say there wasn't even 10% commonality within GM full-size cars circa '65.

Some folk can stretch that as an example of 'the beginning of homogenization' but it doesn't ring remotely factual, IMO.
My focus here is inter-corporate commonality. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Yes, but those examples are all 50+ years ago. Irrelevant to the reality of today and say, 10 years from now...

[balthazar]

Correct, hence:

On 3/15/2021 at 12:27 PM, balthazar said:

Come away from 1980 and 1910; look to the topic at hand- the future.

 

[oldshurst442]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:06 AM, balthazar said:

If -hypothetically- there's 1 BE skateboard under 20 different brands' sedans, is there any 'need' for 20 brands anymore?
Don't buyers chose different brands based on how numerous criteria are different between choices? 

But...we are discussing HYPOTHETICALS....

I understood you quite well.   I gave you plenty of 'real' examples to counter your hypothetical scenarios.

It is what it is!

At least we both had a good back and forth and that is all I could ask for in discussing stuff!

 

On to the next subject!

 

[Robert Hall]

Reality is complex.

[G. David Felt]

With Honda using GM Ultium batteries and Power Train, the base platform is very generalized. Be interesting to see how Honda makes their EV's very different from GM.

[balthazar]

Or not at all. ?

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Or not at all. ?

According to this story, the Honda will be built by GM at the Mexico plant and the Acura version will be built at Spring Hills.

Future Honda, Acura EVs To Utilize GM Ultium Batteries, Ultium Motors (gmauthority.com)

Seems to be more proof that GM will build the first EVs for Honda and Acura.

Honda Reveals Plans for Two New EVs in U.S. for MY2024 - The Detroit Bureau

[G. David Felt]

Breaking News

Back in November 2020 BMW released a detailed info about their first main stream EV the BMW iX CUV.

The first ever BMW iX – Design World Premiere. (bmwgroup.com)

Green Car reports has stated that while BMW North America was not willing to release actual pricing, they did say that this EV will compete head to head with Tesla X and Audi E-Tron as well as the upcoming Mercedes-Benz EQS SUV. BMW North America said to expect this EV to start in the mid 80K. Pre-ordering is expected to start in June 2021 with first deliveries scheduled for early 2022.

This EV will start then at around $85,000 and go up from there with 500 HP, awd, 0-62mph in 5 seconds and top speed of 124 mph

2022 BMW iX: 300-mile electric SUV will rival Model X and E-Tron, start around $85,000 (greencarreports.com)

[G. David Felt]

Reports are that Rivian is expecting to produce 40,000 EVs this year which will include R1T, R1S and the Amazon Delivery vans as they ramp up to an expected 300,000 auto's a year in the near future.

Charged EVs | Rivian rushes to ramp production as it prepares to launch 3 EV models - Charged EVs

[G. David Felt]

Tesla News

Talk about being hit by every side possible. 

UK where Tesla was the best selling EV has now on the renewal of EV incentives finds itself left off the list compared to all other automakers especially UK based EV startups.

Tesla takes hit in the UK as its best-selling Model 3 is excluded from EV incentive - Electrek

In 2015 Tesla opened up a huge 840,000 square foot final assembly plant in Tilburg Netherlands for European delivery of Tesla S & X models. Now with the new models, all assembly will be finished in California leaving Tesla with no need for this plant and the indoor testing track. Tesla says they are looking to repurpose the building, but no clear plans yet.

Tesla to shut down final assembly plant in Tilburg following Model S/X refresh - Electrek

In Detroit a Tesla slammed under the trailer of a Semi Truck on the road and while this one did not end in death, only serious injury, it seems Tesla is under scrutiny again.

Tesla is under scrutiny from feds again over crash with semi truck - Electrek

Bit of Good news for Tesla,

Tesla has secured a 100MW order for storage capacity for green energy production and they have finally opened orders for Isreal to purchase their auto's. 

Tesla scores over 100 MW order for batteries in Israel - Electrek

[G. David Felt]

Breaking News

FOXCONN has been identified as the production company for Apples iCar EV. Seems now FOXCONN has been identified as using their new phase 1 Wisconsin Valley Science and Technology park as the place to build EV's for the North American market.

Foxconn may (or may not) produce EVs at its Wisconsin facility - Electrek

In another auto startup company that is clearly focused on the last mile, Electric Last Mile corporation has announced they have 45,000 plus reservations and will be starting production on their 150 mile EV delivery van.

Welcome to ELMS - Electric Last Mile Solutions

HQ located in Troy Michigan and production set for Mishawaka Michigan they are currently hiring almost 1,000 people for their production site.

News - Electric Last Mile Solutions

ELMS is touting the following details about their last mile delivery van.

• 35% TCO savings over ICE
• 60% Maintenance Cost Reduction
• 35% More Cargo Space than the Class 1 Leader
• Curb weight of 3,329 lbs
• Range 150 miles
• Max Payload 2,403 lbs
• Wheelbase 120 inches
• Cargo capacity 170 CU. FT.
• L xW x H (177", 66", 78")

[G. David Felt]

ElectraMeccanica News

Seems this little startup that has been clinging to life support over the past few years has now choosen Mesa Arizona for their new US based assembly facility.

According to the story, this little single occupant 3 wheel EV after a year plus long search choose Arizona over it's home HQ base of Canada. They also have opened up 8 current retail locations with plans for a total of 20  direct to consumer locations of which 16 will be in North America for people to look at and pre-order their auto across the US.

With a price point of $18,500, 100 mile range and a top speed of 80mph, this could be the perfect Uber Eats or any other service delivery auto.

Home - Electra Meccanica

ElectraMeccanica Announces Plans to Establish U.S. Base of Operations in Greater Phoenix, Arizona - Electra Meccanica

 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, David said:

News - Electric Last Mile Solutions

ELMS is touting the following details about their last mile delivery van.

• 35% TCO savings over ICE
• 60% Maintenance Cost Reduction
• 35% More Cargo Space than the Class 1 Leader
• Curb weight of 3,329 lbs
• Range 150 miles
• Max Payload 2,403 lbs
• Wheelbase 120 inches
• Cargo capacity 170 CU. FT.
• L xW x H (177", 66", 78")

I actually LOVE that this looks like an "old school" "regular" work van(outside of the headlights). 

[Robert Hall]

49 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I actually LOVE that this looks like an "old school" "regular" work van(outside of the headlights). 

Those headlights look a lot like an Isuzu D-Max..wonder if it's based on an Isuzu van. 

[G. David Felt]

@ccap41 @Robert Hall I think this van has European orgins.

ELMS Van

SAID Electric van of Europe

Ford Transit Van of Europe

[balthazar]

A trio of the Commercial Truck Co Model A-10 electrics showed up in Portland OR for sale. Pretty decent shape for being from 1912- must've spent decades in a structure. $5000 for all 3. 

[G. David Felt]

Jeep is showing off their MAGNeTO Jeep wrangler that is pure electric with a Manual Transmission.

Jeep Builds an EV, Stick-Shift Wrangler for Easter Jeep Safari (roadandtrack.com)