Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[oldshurst442]

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

I don't like how GM does things...

No different than what the rest of the industry does...

Literally... NO OEM gives you the freedom to check boxes of items you want while deleting ones you dont...

 

[surreal1272]

15 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

You're right, it is WAY more with those OPTIONAL items grouped as GM does.

Okay SMK, I mean Blu. Way to move the bar there. Fact is that if you were put that standard equipment listed on a Cruze, then your imaginary $10K difference disappears. Feel free to reference the stats David posted above (regarding average car prices) to see how completely out of touch you are here. Hell, if it didn’t have that equipment and was prices at $25K as a result, you’d be complaining about something else. 
 

Remember. You’re the one trying to compare two different things that are clearly not equal. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

Just now, surreal1272 said:

Okay SMK, I mean Blu. Way to move the bar there. Fact is that if you were put that standard equipment listed on a Cruze, then your imaginary $10K difference disappears. Feel free to reference the stats David posted above (regarding average car prices) to see how completely out of touch you are here. Hell, if it didn’t have that equipment and was prices at $25K as a result, you’d be complaining about something else. 

Those gee-whiz features are not standard on a $31,995 Bolt v.2, they are optional, which moves that $31,995 considerably north... which MAINTAINS the giant price difference between the Cruze and Bolt v.2.

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Thanks for the "CAPTIAL (???) D"!  I would have missed your name calling, politically charged post otherwise, david.

Get over it already. 

[A Horse With No Name]

39 minutes ago, David said:

Delusional with a CAPTIAL D, Days of $18K auto's are over. EVERYTHING is more expensive especially due to a FAILED Trade war that increased costs for US Consumers. Facts! Welcome to the 21st Century!

Average New-Vehicle Prices Jump Nearly 4% Year-Over-Year in August 2020, According to Kelley Blue Book - Sep 1, 2020 (kbb.com)

Driving is a privilege earned and NOT a right. 

We have already covered the average cost of an auto and no company will go backwards. Your $25K auto is the new $15K auto. Reality sucks, but you have a choice, further education, further career growth or stagnant income.

It has driven up the price of woodworking tools. I so badly want to add a second lathe so people can come over and turn with me. Driven prices up between $350 and $600 on mid level woodworking power tools. 

[oldshurst442]

35 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And while some still bring up the price being too high when compared to say, a Chevy Cruze, they are ignoring what the Bolt offers standard and what the Cruze NEVER had. And I quote,

 

”The bow-tie brand also offers the Bolt EUV with a sunroof (a first for any Bolt-badged model), surround-view camera, adaptive cruise control, and Super Cruise, the driver-assist system that enables hands-free driving on more than 200,000 miles of designated roads in the United States and Canada.”

 

 

So its not really a “$10K” price difference between the Bolt and defunct Cruze (which in higher trims was closer to $30K than $20K btw) when you compare apples to apples instead of apples to obvious oranges.

 

Supercruise offered in a 31 000 dollar GM vehicle?

THAT,  I believe, would be the lowest priced vehicle by GM that Supercruised is offered. Am I right?

PLUS a sunroof...

A base Camaro is at 28 Gs I believe.  Unfortunately,  even though the Bolt EUV is a tad on the smallish side of family hauling duties, I think, that it does a better job of that than the Camaro...

A fully fully equipped Trax tops out at 25 Gs?  The Buick equivalent reaches 30 Gs?

The Hyundai Veloster N is 28 Gs.

YES...like you have said, THIS particular EV is DEFINETELY just a hair more expensive than a comparable ICE CUV.  

But is that really a surprise, though?

But...is that really such a huge deterrent?   I dont think so.   

*SIGH*

You TRY to steer the conversation to a more positive area, but the conversation keeps on getting sidetracked by absolute nonsense.

Thank-you for trying to be rational about it as I too, would prefer to talk about the good things that GM did with the Bolt EUV, but certain things will NEVER change.  Enabling bad behaviour seems to be a common theme lately...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Supercruise offered in a 31 000 dollar GM vehicle?

THAT,  I believe, would be the lowest priced vehicle by GM that Supercruised is offered. Am I right?

PLUS a sunroof...

A base Camaro is at 28 Gs I believe.  Unfortunately,  even though the Bolt EUV is a tad on the smallish side of family hauling duties, I think, that it does a better job of that than the Camaro...

A fully fully equipped Trax tops out at 25 Gs?  The Buick equivalent reaches 30 Gs?

The Hyundai Veloster N is 28 Gs.

YES...like you have said, THIS particular EV is DEFINETELY just a hair more expensive than a comparable ICE CUV.  

But is that really a surprise, though?

But...is that really such a huge deterrent?   I dont think so.   

*SIGH*

You TRY to steer the conversation to a more positive area, but the conversation keeps on getting sidetracked by absolute nonsense.

Thank-you for trying to be rational about it as I too, would prefer to talk about the good things that GM did with the Bolt EUV, but certain things will NEVER change.  Enabling bad behaviour seems to be a common theme lately...

 

 

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that super cruise is for the Bolt EUV. I do not see it mentioned for the standard Bolt but it still makes the EUV the lowest priced GM model with the feature if I’m not mistaken. Some people still just want to bitch just for the sake of bitching though. 

[ocnblu]

Supercruise is going to be part of an option package that will push the EUV into the mid-$40k range, just go to Chevy's site and see it explained.  That pushes it into Mach-Eeeee territory.  Which EV would you rather be seen in?

[surreal1272]

50 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Supercruise is going to be part of an option package that will push the EUV into the mid-$40k range, just go to Chevy's site and see it explained.  That pushes it into Mach-Eeeee territory.  Which EV would you rather be seen in?

And again, moving the bar as the Mach-E is not direct competition for the Bolt but it should be mentioned that the Mach-E pushes to a much higher price when well equipped (up to $60K and still doesn't come with anything like Supercruise).

 

Again, apples to apples.

[ocnblu]

While all EV are dorky to the point of deep embarrassment, I'd rather drive a $40k Mach-er-E than a $40k Bolt EUV.

[surreal1272]

Those who have owned cars such as the VW Beetle and the Ford Fiesta don’t get to call other vehicles “dorky” without bursting into flames over the sheer hypocrisy of said statement. 

[ocnblu]

59 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Those who have owned cars such as the VW Beetle and the Ford Fiesta don’t get to call other vehicles “dorky” without bursting into flames over the sheer hypocrisy of said statement. 

Volkswagen has sold over 23 million units of the iconic Beetle over an EIGHTY-ONE YEAR RUN.  Step off mister.

And the Ford Fiesta, known for being more fun to drive than all of its competitors, has sold over 16 million units since its introduction in 1976.  Step off mister.

[surreal1272]

39 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Volkswagen has sold over 23 million units of the iconic Beetle over an EIGHTY-ONE YEAR RUN.  Step off mister.

And the Ford Fiesta, known for being more fun to drive than all of its competitors, has sold over 16 million units since its introduction in 1976.  Step off mister.

Step off yourself dorky car driver. Not sure if you’re trying to convince me or yourself here but again, those who drive dork cars don’t get to call other cars “dorky”. It’s just that simple. 
 

Oh and only Fiesta ST was worth a damn, as far as fun driving goes. The rest of the lineup was a hot mess. It was also an unreliable pile just like the Beetle. You seem to have a habit of buying unreliable cars. 
 

And I quote,

”Inside and out, the 2011 Fiesta had problems so severe it was the worst model year overall. It also earned CarComplaints.com’s “Beware of the Clunker” badge. The irony here is that the 2011 model year was the Ford Fiesta’s first year of availability in North America.

Owners submitted complaints in 174 problem categories and major problem categories were related to the transmission, interior accessories, and engine. 40% percent of the problems were related to the transmission.”

 

But I digress...back to the Bolt. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

40% percent of the problems were related to the transmission.”

Blu's Clues:  the transmission complaints were for the automatic, which are well known.  Mine was a manual.  Problem solved.  NEXT!

[surreal1272]

I’m just saying I’d take art buying advice from Ray Charles before I’d take car buying advice from Blu. 

13 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Blu's Clues:  the transmission complaints were for the automatic, which are well known.  Mine was a manual.  Problem solved.  NEXT!

Which is one category out of 174. Next indeed, as in the next car that isn’t an unreliable pile. 

[FAPTurbo]

46 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

guYs I haTE eLeCtRiC cARs aLOT!! 

 

[ocnblu]

3 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

 

Somebody's gotta keep this thread humming along.  If it weren't for contretemps, this whole place would switch off the lights. 

How come you haven't been in here regaling us with blissful tales of Tezzla ownership?

[oldshurst442]

Bolt EV and EUV

65 KW/H battery

Bolt EV  259 mile range  starting at $31 995

Bolt EUV 250 mile range starting at $33 995

Launch Edition  Bolt EUV that includes Supercruise  is $43 000.  But GM will offer Supercruise on other models but GM did NOT price the option... 

Biden admin will probably extend EV credits. $7500.   GM could benefit by it. If the Biden admin does do that, then the Bolt EV will cost the consumer $24 995 and the EUV $26 495.

One does NOT have to option the EUV with Supercruise...    

The Bolt EV and EUV only have a 65 KW/H battery with no other battery option.  No long range version. No faster version. The Bolt EV and EUV are NOT one of those 'enthusiastic' type vehicles like Teslas are or the MUSTANG Mach E.  The Bolt EV and EUV are on the low man on the car totem pole world of vehicles.   The Chevrolet Spark in the Chevrolet world. But in EV form. 

The Bolt EV and EUV are NOT Mustang Mach E natural competitors.    

I dont know how much Ford's Supercruise tech will cost as an option for the Mach E, but Im assuming that at the Mach E's BASE price of $41 000 does NOT include this (not really necessary) option.  I would SAFELY say that if at Tesla Autopilot is a $10 000 option and over at GM is just about the same, then at Ford it would be roughly equal to that. 

The Bolt EV and EUV still look clumsy.  Just like EVERY small shytty CUV available since the dawn of time. 

The Mustang Mach E actually looks good as a sporty CUV.  Still a shytty CUV if you ask me. Between the two, Id rather the Mach E.  But Id rather the looooong in the tooth Tesla Model S over both of them.  Or the Hummer EV.  But at $100 000 for either, that is a HARD pass.   Not because of the EV factor. But for the $100 000 factor. if I were to choose an EV car right NOW, I think the Mustang Mach E would get my money. ONLY because I could actually afford it.  But Ill tell ya one thing...$26 495 after guvment subsidies for an excellent EV to get me off of gasoline would be enticing...  Very...VERY enticing indeed. 

[ocnblu]

You'll have to talk to your PM about that guvment subsidy.

I think there were restrictions on ours, it was not a rebate, it was only a tax credit, and I think it only applied to lessees, IIRC.

[surreal1272]

The Bolt would not qualify for the tax credit due to GM crossing the 200k sales threshold but the tax credit itself was not restricted to just leases. It was for all purchases of qualifying EVs. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2021/02/03/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/amp/

 

[ccap41]

On 2/14/2021 at 5:00 PM, surreal1272 said:

While I agree about the lack of AWD (weight was clearly the issue here as it kills range)

Outside of the MachE, I thought range increased with all EVs as it yielded more regenerative braking. I believe all Teslas with AWD has longer range than their RWD models. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Outside of the MachE, I thought range increased with all EVs as it yielded more regenerative braking. I believe all Teslas with AWD has longer range than their RWD models. 

It's not the regenerative breaking (though that does help).  It's that at cruise, cars use so little power that the Model-S runs along with mostly just the smaller front motor actively providing propulsion and the rear motor just getting enough of a trickle of power to not cause drag.  The car will adjust torque to the rear as needed for acceleration or aggressive cornering, but most of the time that $100k Model-S is just a FWD Jellybean Taurus.

The ones where I'm not exactly sure how it's working are the tri-motor Plaid and Plaid+ models.  The Plaid has a reduction in range from the Long Range, but the Plaid+ gets a significant increase in range.  My guess is they're just throwing a lot more battery at it. 

[ykX]

Are we going to discuss the current  situation in Texas?

Their renewable energy supplies over 20% of the state energy and now almost all the wind farms are down and frozen.  Granted they have plenty of other issues, their grid is not prepared for cold weather and they even had issues with natural gas supply, which is their primary source of electricity.  Renewable is second.

Still, the fact that big storm can shut down wind farms is a serious concern, especially here in Northeast, where winter ice storms are common.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Are we going to discuss the current  situation in Texas?

Their renewable energy supplies over 20% of the state energy and now almost all the wind farms are down and frozen.  Granted they have plenty of other issues, their grid is not prepared for cold weather and they even had issues with natural gas supply, which is their primary source of electricity.  Renewable is second.

Still, the fact that big storm can shut down wind farms is a serious concern, especially here in Northeast, where winter ice storms are common.

I've heard(so don't hold me to this) that they have ways to de-ice them like airplanes but if this is Texas, they likely weren't prepared for such a situation. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Are we going to discuss the current  situation in Texas?

Their renewable energy supplies over 20% of the state energy and now almost all the wind farms are down and frozen.  Granted they have plenty of other issues, their grid is not prepared for cold weather and they even had issues with natural gas supply, which is their primary source of electricity.  Renewable is second.

Still, the fact that big storm can shut down wind farms is a serious concern, especially here in Northeast, where winter ice storms are common.

Ssuuuuuree. Let's discuss.

Texas has a whole mess of problems.

1. They isolated their grid from the rest of the US because they did not want to be subject to federal regulation regarding redundancy and reserve power generation. That means they cannot import electricity easily from other states. My understanding is they are scrambling now to make some emergency interconnects with help from the current Federal administration.

2. They sold off their grid to a for-profit consortium called ERCOT.  ERCOT's first order of business is profitability, not reliability even though Reliability is in the name (Electric Reliability Council Of Texas.... kinda like Democratic People's Republic of Korea in naming accuracy) Nearly every other large grid in the US is regulated as a utility which means profits come second, reliability comes first.  It isn't perfect, but it isn't the mess that Texas has.

3. Remember ENRON that caused rolling blackout in California in summer in order to drive up prices?  This is the same exact thing. The primary cause of the issue is that natural gas delivery lines are freezing because they didn't bury them deep enough into the ground.  This cut off supply to some generation and spiked the cost of natural gas across the state. Because the natural gas spot price more than tripled, generation plants shut themselves down to maintain profitability (See: ERCOT). They are literally letting people freeze to death because it would cause a temporary hit to their profits.

4. The Windmills did freeze.... because they didn't want to pay for the built in de-icing equipment that works just like the rear-window defroster in your car.  Pretty much any windmill north of Texas has this ability. But again, profits. Windmills are only 10% of the problem according to ERCOT though... the other generation should have been able to make up for it. Windmills in Iowa are operating just fine.

5. Some of the few Nuke plants they have had their coolant water freeze. This seems like a design flaw to me... if you can't find spare heat at a nuke plant to keep your coolant tanks from freezing, that's just poor planning and design. This doesn't happen in the north.

6. What is most interesting is the neighborhoods with the highest income/property values have their power on the most. There was supposed to be rolling blackouts where everyone has to take a turn without power. That isn't happening.  Poorer neighborhoods are going 48+ hours without power while downtown Houston, Austin, Dallas, San Antonio all have power. The utility can shut house power off remotely using smart meters, but whole blocks of streets with Christmas lights and empty office towers are still lit up.

7. The next 48-72 hours are going to be interesting because they've destabilized the grid and they're going to have difficulty rebooting it.  You can't just fire up a generator and throw it on the grid. It has to be coordinated. The specialists that run the grid are going to be earning their money through this. Texas isn't in a purely Black Start situation, but they're close... and if you'd like to get an idea of how complex it is, you can read more here: Black Start - Wikipedia

The entire problem is due to corporate greed.

So what are the solutions?

Well, more greed of course.

The Governor is signing an emergency order that will allow generators to pass on the higher cost of generation to their customers. Because of the way electricity is bought and sold down there, this is essentially a unilateral contract change in favor of the utilities to make sure they don't lose money for even a week. Imagine signing a contract with your energy provider saying you'll pay 10c kWh for 12 months, the utility gets in a jam and shuts down and lets you freeze to death because of the sudden high cost of natural gas, they cry to the Governor who then says "Oh, you can charge them what you want now, the contract doesn't matter....just stay profitable."  That's what is happening there now.

What they aren't going to do?

They aren't going to require increases in reserve generation capacity. They aren't going to build the needed infrastructure to meet federal minimum standards for redundancy. And they aren't going to create permanent interlinks with the other national grids to help them through future storms because then they would be subject to federal oversight.

And Gas pumps still use electricity... so it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive... if you've got an empty tank or an empty battery, you're not going anywhere. 

[ykX]

@Drew Dowdell

You are right about de-icing equipment on wind mills, I should have read up on it, it doesn't happen in northern states or northern countries in Europe.  

In regards to federal regulations, I am not sure how well they work.  Every freaking snow storm we have power interruptions because of downed trees, Power companies don't want to spend money either burying the lines or at least trimming the trees around power lines.  They blame townships or state but I call bs on that.  It is all about them not spending the money.  How is that different?

This Christmas we were almost three days without power. 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

41 minutes ago, ykX said:

@Drew Dowdell

You are right about de-icing equipment on wind mills, I should have read up on it, it doesn't happen in northern states or northern countries in Europe.  

In regards to federal regulations, I am not sure how well they work.  Every freaking snow storm we have power interruptions because of downed trees, Power companies don't want to spend money either burying the lines or at least trimming the trees around power lines.  They blame townships or state but I call bs on that.  It is all about them not spending the money.  How is that different?

This Christmas we were almost three days without power. 

 

So, you're not wrong, but just wanted to zoom in a bit for more detail....

Storms do happen, no grid is ever 100%.  I lose power shockingly often for being only ~10 miles from a downtown metro area, but never for more than a few hours. The worst power outage we had was for a few days when a car took out a key power pole with multiple transformers on it down at the bottom of my street and they couldn't get replacement transformers (Thanks Covid!). No regulation could have prevented that. I appear to be on the edge of a local grid, so it seems like I don't have redundancy.  There have been times where only my side of the street is out.

The trees thing is a constant fight between power companies, local governments, and property owners. As you know, I work for a local government now so I hear what goes on.  Our code enforcement officer will warn a property owner for the trees either if they see something or if we get notice from the utility. If the property owner doesn't address it, we fine them. If they still don't address it, our public works goes out and does the tree and we bill them for it.  The whole process can take 6 months to a year depending on how cranky the property owner is. The township I live in (not the same as where I work) has an additional snag in that we have an arborist who we have to check with and get approval from for any tree trimming or cutting.  If it's for powerline stuff, it's not that big a deal to get approval but it is still an extra step.

Pretty much all new construction uses underground power lines, but in a city like mine that has very old housing stock, the costs of converting from pole to underground is astronomical and you have to do whole streets at the same time and a significant financial burden ($2,000 - $4,000 residential) will fall on the property owners because from the pole/street into the house is their responsibility.... so the cost/benefit analysis discussion ends pretty quick.

Further, I want to make sure you understand that there are different levels of "grid".  The Grid is really nested grids like those Russian nesting dolls.  There is a neighborhood grid that is part of a larger city grid that is part of a county grid, that is part of a local regional grid, that is part of the regional ISO.  Only the regional ISO is subject to the federal regulations. Here in Pennsylvania the ISO is called PJM. PJM is roughly the same level as ERCOT but spans multiple states.  All of the smaller grids under PJM are subject to state regulations rather than federal, and as such, the regulations for the smaller local grids will vary state by state, so I can tell you how PA operates and Texas at the Regional level, but I don't know how your state or local utility would operate.

Also, adding more complexity is that the generation companies and the transmission companies are two different things (most times, but not all, depends on the state). So even though you only pay one bill, if you read it closely you're actually paying two different companies. Those two companies can even have very similar names, but they are separate entities due to regulations.  For example, my local utility is Duquesne Light. They are responsible for the wires on the poles delivering energy to my house. There is a separate company of Duquesne Light called Duquesne Light Generation that actually generates the power. (I switch my generation to another company to get Wind power, so mine is different). All of the generation companies dump their power into the grid at the ISO level and it filters down through there. The ISO level is so large that the energy powering your house could be a few miles away or a few states away. The wind power for my home comes from about 60 miles east of me, and I only know that because I buy the power from that specific generation company.

The transmission companies here in PA are not allowed to operate at a profit, but the generation companies can. The generation companies as a group are required by state and federal regulation to provide a certain amount of reserve capacity at all times and to incentivize that, there is a bidding process for reserve power. This is partially what failed in Texas, ERCOT does not require sufficient spare generation capacity. They have enough to prevent price spikes if one or two power plants get knocked off-line unexpectedly, but they can't handle 20% and they can't import power from other states because they refuse to meet the Federal requirement for redundancy and spare capacity. They'd rather shoot themselves in the foot and not be able to accept help because that means they might have to also help Oklahoma or Arkansas sometime in the future.

Sorry for the wall of text... but with 13+ years in the energy industry, I hope to bring some understanding to grid issues to everyone here and how it tangentially relates to EVs. 

[balthazar]

I certainly consider myself lucky in that power outages at my house are rare & short. I know it has to do with where I am on the grid (somehow). During Hurricane Sandy, where some people in central NJ had power out for 5 days, mine was only out for 25 hrs. I did borrow a generator from a friend at about hour 23 to run my sump pump & cycle the fridge. When power does go out during regular storms, it's usually out for only a few minutes. It's the prime reason I have resisted getting a generator. I also have a wood stove, so even if the gas lines somehow froze, I can heat my whole house just fine. I have made a point of never having paid for wood, either.

I saw something curious in passing RE Texas- that utilities had to be granted permission to up their power generation.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I certainly consider myself lucky in that power outages at my house are rare & short. During Hurricane Sandy, where some people in central NJ had power out for 5 days, mine was only out for 25 hrs. I did borrow a generator from a friend at about hour 23 to run my sump pump & cycle the fridge. When power does go out during regular storms, it's usually out for only a few minutes. It's the prime reason I have resisted getting a generator. I also have a wood stove, so even if the gas lines somehow froze, I can heat my whole house just fine. I have made a point of never having paid for wood, either.

I saw something curious in passing RE Texas- that utilities had to be granted permission to up their power generation.  

You're in the north, your gas line is probably below the frost line underground. 

I did a quick Google to see if I could see what you are referencing regarding the generation in Texas and couldn't find anything that stood out.... but I'll give it my educated guess.

If you go up a few of my posts, look for the link to Black Start.  The TL:DR of it is that you can't just add generation to the grid without letting everyone else know.  It has to be coordinated with everyone else at the ISO/ERCOT.  ERCOT manages this and if they're good at their jobs (day to day operation, they're pretty good, they just don't have the resources to handle emergencies like this) that generation will become available to users in a few minutes to a few hours. Getting all of the high voltage transmission equipment up and running is a lot like priming an empty plumbing system in a 6 bathroom house.  In some cases it still requires sending a lineman out to a site to manually close contacts at a substation and letting all of that equipment energize and warm up. That's a lot of coordination.

That's why you can't just pull start a generator and hook it up to the grid. 

[ykX]

19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

some people in central NJ had power out for 5 days,

We were out TWO WEEKS

Edited February 17, 2021 by ykX

[balthazar]

All utilities here have to be a min of 3' below grade, but NJ never freezes that deep. One of the worse winter digs I was on when I was in excavation, the excavator wouldn't break thru the frozen ground at the house we were trenching to, and we had to tent it with 2 kerosene bullet heaters. My recollection was the ground was really only frozen about 8" deep then.

Just now, ykX said:

We were out TWO WEEKS

OMG. I have not heard of anyone in NJ who got their power back quicker than I did. Don't know exactly why, I've always dubbed it the "Route 1 power grid' (with no knowledge of exactly what).

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

All utilities here have to be a min of 3' below grade, but NJ never freezes that deep. One of the worse winter digs I was on when I was in excavation, the excavator wouldn't break thru the frozen ground at the house we were trenching to, and we had to tent it with 2 kerosene bullet heaters. My recollection was the ground was really only frozen about 8" deep then.

OMG. I have not heard of anyone in NJ who got their power back quicker than I did. Don't know exactly why, I've always dubbed it the "Route 1 power grid' (with no knowledge of exactly what).

Take a look at the industries around you 25 miles in each direction along RT 1. There's a bunch of hospitals and medical centers. It's a major infrastructure corridor. About a mile or two east of Rt 1 there are high tension wires running parallel from about your area south to Hamilton where it diverges from Rt1 and heads to Bordentown and another set running west into Edison from the Jersey coast. I think there is another set heading west along 287, but this may be the same line from the coast. I'm sure there are more than that that I don't specifically recall.  Any power outages you're going to experience at your house are going to be very local. 

[ykX]

19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I have not heard of anyone in NJ who got their power back quicker than I did.

My in-laws live in Woodbridge, they also got power back within 1 day.

They usually don't loose power much either.

Woodbridge is on a major road intersection, Route 1, 287, Turnpike, GSP, so maybe that's why.

Edited February 17, 2021 by ykX

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

@Drew Dowdell

You are right about de-icing equipment on wind mills, I should have read up on it, it doesn't happen in northern states or northern countries in Europe.  

In regards to federal regulations, I am not sure how well they work.  Every freaking snow storm we have power interruptions because of downed trees, Power companies don't want to spend money either burying the lines or at least trimming the trees around power lines.  They blame townships or state but I call bs on that.  It is all about them not spending the money.  How is that different?

This Christmas we were almost three days without power. 

 

I say that is your States Failure. In Washington State, the power company, PSE for most of the state and PUD for those counties that regulate heavier than the state all have requirements that all tree's are cut back at least 6ft from the power lines. All spring, summer and fall you see the tree trimming services are out under contract with the power companies trimming all trees back. Still you get the occasional power outage, but for the most part, I have not had power loss in decades and I have lots of trees here in Washington state, so a very common issue especially when a wind storm blows in or snow before the trees drop leaves, you end up with spot outages.

I agree with you that I wish the power companies would be required to bury the lines in older neighborhoods. The cities and new neighborhoods are required to be all under ground, but still have plenty of above ground if you buy an older home like I did.

Over all, I would take regulated power over the mess in Texas! Lived there for 1 year, never again, worst place ever to live. Food is a different thing, yummy BBQ!

[G. David Felt]

Ford Announced their $1 Billion investment in their German plant to convert to 100% Plug-in Hybrids and EV auto's by 2025 and 100% EV only by 2030. Ford also states they want their commercial business to by Plug-in Hybrid and EV by 2024 at the latest. Seems a revolution is afoot and we will see a transformation that will change how we use auto's.

Ford invests $1 billion in German electric vehicle plant (cnbc.com)

As the story says, this is a Transformative Decade. CEO's from Daimler to Kia to Ford have all stated that for European sales, ICE will be pretty much dead by 2030 as they convert much faster to dedicated EV platforms and skip for the most part the Plug-in Hybrids. This is to affect the rest of the world also as Asian countries are also following Europe.

Americas countries are going to be an interesting watch. Consolidation and change will affect some places more than others and of course the electrical grid will play a roll in how fast places change over or if they do at all.

[Drew Dowdell]

33 minutes ago, ykX said:

My in-laws live in Woodbridge, they also got power back within 1 day.

They usually don't loose power much either.

Woodbridge is on a major road intersection, Route 1, 287, Turnpike, GSP, so maybe that's why.

My old office was right there in MetroPark at the intersection of the GSP and Rt 1. 

[A Horse With No Name]

On 2/15/2021 at 11:54 AM, ocnblu said:

While all EV are dorky to the point of deep embarrassment, I'd rather drive a $40k Mach-er-E than a $40k Bolt EUV.

I have your alternative power plant for you, OCN...

2 hours ago, David said:

I say that is your States Failure. In Washington State, the power company, PSE for most of the state and PUD for those counties that regulate heavier than the state all have requirements that all tree's are cut back at least 6ft from the power lines. All spring, summer and fall you see the tree trimming services are out under contract with the power companies trimming all trees back. Still you get the occasional power outage, but for the most part, I have not had power loss in decades and I have lots of trees here in Washington state, so a very common issue especially when a wind storm blows in or snow before the trees drop leaves, you end up with spot outages.

I agree with you that I wish the power companies would be required to bury the lines in older neighborhoods. The cities and new neighborhoods are required to be all under ground, but still have plenty of above ground if you buy an older home like I did.

Over all, I would take regulated power over the mess in Texas! Lived there for 1 year, never again, worst place ever to live. Food is a different thing, yummy BBQ!

I love Texas, hate the way the state is run. 

3 hours ago, ykX said:

We were out TWO WEEKS

That's horrible. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Starting them out young on ICE

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, ykX said:

My in-laws live in Woodbridge, they also got power back within 1 day.

They usually don't loose power much either.

Woodbridge is on a major road intersection, Route 1, 287, Turnpike, GSP, so maybe that's why.

I’m hoping my area gets spared tonight. They are calling for a quarter inch to a half inch of ice and this is barely a week after the last ice storm. We got lucky at our house and didn’t lose power then but I’m not pressing my luck on that happening twice. Have been taking necessary precautions just in case. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by surreal1272

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I’m hoping my area gets spared tonight. They are calling for quarter inch to a half inch of ice and this is barely a week after the last ice storm. We got lucky at our house and didn’t lose power then but I’m not pressing my luck on that happening twice. Have been taking necessary precautions just in case. 

I was worried we would loose power here in Ohio, didn't happen. 

[G. David Felt]

@Drew Dowdell Lots of news stories all saying the same things about why Texas grid cannot handle the winter storm and it follows what you say, where there seems to be differences is in the grids. Saw this as the most common image. Is it pretty close to being right?

 

Course now I am seeing this one on CNN, Bloomberg and AP.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just found this datapoint. This is what happens when you don’t build reserve capacity into the system and use scarcity pricing instead. Check out what “the invisible hand of the market” did during this weather disaster.

”Next-day power for Tuesday at the ERCOT North hub jumped to a record of $1,489.75 per megawatt hour (MWh), while some 5-minute power prices approached $11,000 per MWh over the past couple of days, ERCOT said. That annual average at the ERCOT North hub was $26 in 2020.” - ERCOT via Reuters

And to give you an idea just how much capacity is offline,

“The weather has forced about 34,000 megawatts of generation off the system, ERCOT said on Monday, or 40% of roughly 82,000 mw of expected capacity, as ERCOT instituted rolling blackouts.”

And they have no way to import power from other states. The feds are working on interconnections with other grids, but those apparently will take over a week to get operational and even then will only feed outer areas of the blackout areas.

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I just found this datapoint. This is what happens when you don’t build reserve capacity into the system and use scarcity pricing instead. Check out what “the invisible hand of the market” did during this weather disaster.

”Next-day power for Tuesday at the ERCOT North hub jumped to a record of $1,489.75 per megawatt hour (MWh), while some 5-minute power prices approached $11,000 per MWh over the past couple of days, ERCOT said. That annual average at the ERCOT North hub was $26 in 2020.” - ERCOT via Reuters

And to give you an idea just how much capacity is offline,

“The weather has forced about 34,000 megawatts of generation off the system, ERCOT said on Monday, or 40% of roughly 82,000 mw of expected capacity, as ERCOT instituted rolling blackouts.”

And they have no way to import power from other states. The feds are working on interconnections with other grids, but those apparently will take over a week to get operational and even then will only feed outer areas of the blackout areas.

Just got an email that our Austin HQ Campus is powering down and will go dark for an indefinite amount of time so that the power can go to the family homes in the area to keep everyone warm. We have been running on backup generators, but we are moving work for hardware / software projects to datacenters out of the state to allow those that can work to continue.

Crazy weather in Texas.  

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, David said:

@Drew Dowdell Lots of news stories all saying the same things about why Texas grid cannot handle the winter storm and it follows what you say, where there seems to be differences is in the grids. Saw this as the most common image. Is it pretty close to being right?

 

Course now I am seeing this one on CNN, Bloomberg and AP.

Those are the interconnects. That’s one step above the ISO/RTO level. That’s not really a grid per say as each one is not operated by an independent entity, rather all of the ISOs/RTOs talk to each other and trade power within those regions. 

The difference between an ISO and RTO is immaterial to this conversation as they perform largely the same tasks. When I say ISO I mean RTO interchangeably.

 Here are some ISOs.

 

 

[Robert Hall]

Energy/power generation is one sector I don't have experience in, but it sounds like lots of complexity, terminology and technology.    The closest I've been was building the public portal for CLECO (Central Louisiana Electric Company) a few years ago...

[Drew Dowdell]

43 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Energy/power generation is one sector I don't have experience in, but it sounds like lots of complexity, terminology and technology.    The closest I've been was building the public portal for CLECO (Central Louisiana Electric Company) a few years ago...

It’s incredibly complex. The stuff I’m covering here only scratches the surface and it’s pretty much close to maxing out my knowledge on the way the grid works.

[G. David Felt]

Hummer has new videos on their web site. Some cool stuff on their sound. Gotta say, I am excited by the future tech that GM is bringing us in this truck and the future SUV.

HUMMER EV Lead Engineer Takes Us Behind the Scenes | GMC Life

Later this year we get to experience the Bose^† Electric Vehicle Sound Enhancement technology.

ZETA 2030 did a nice writeup on how the USPS can benefit in reducing costs by going EV with the Postal delivery fleet. Focus being the small white delivery auto's in our neighborhood.

The Right Time to Electrify the U.S. Postal Service - ZETA (zeta2030.org)

[oldshurst442]

A road trip with a Tesla Model 3 cross country.  The only disserting thing about it is Tesla's Autopilot.  In my opinion, it aint even a problem if one actually is aware of WTF is happening while actually DRIVING the phoquing thing. But it IS a problem of what he describes as the software programming with Autopilot because as we all know, people do NOT drive anymore... They dont want to...

As far as range goes in the winter. He does not give us numbers, but the way he talks about the trip, especially on the last leg home,  he does NOT mention anything on battery drain or range anxiety. One could assume that winter battery drain is probably not a big deal at this point...  There were 12-13 charge stations from where they were to Michigan. They didnt stop. They drove 36 hours straight. They did NOT stop for any of those 12-13 charge stations....    

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

They didnt stop. They drove 36 hours straight. They did NOT stop for any of those 12-13 charge stations....    

That would be a range of circa 1800 miles (at 50 MPH average).
Do I actually have to watch the video?

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

That would be a range of circa 1800 miles (at 50 MPH average).
Do I actually have to watch the video?

Yeah...I thought of that last night...

I watched that part again and again and it does not make any sense. But that is what they said.  Maybe the way they said it and I mis-misunderstood....

This is when they said it.  The video is time stamped.  I listened to it again.  THAT is what they clearly say...  It does not make any sense.  Please explain it to me in better English than they did. LOL

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by oldshurst442