Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[G. David Felt]

Rivian responded to a question about production delay due to Coronavirus and said that they were not impacted in their schedule to begin production and delivery.

Seems the Rivian forum based on a patent filed at the end of 2019 would lend belief to the Police department use of Rivian R1T and R1S in their fleets as they would have more than enough space inside especially with the custom seat that embraces the use by officers of all the equipment they wear.

Also some pretty cool renderings of what the Police versions would look like.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/rivian-pickup-truck-suv-rendered-with-police-livery-off-road-mods-six-wheels-141969.html

[balthazar]

Article doesn't mention Rivian at all.

Where this article's strange metric falls down for me is; the mainstream EV cars generally all exceed the average daily commute for Americans, who are supposed to be taking advantage of lower electric rates while charging at their homes over night.
Ideally -other than long road trips- an EV owner should never have to park in a parking lot for an hour or so, because everyone has electricity in their own home.

Edited March 19, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

21 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Article doesn't mention Rivian at all.

Where this article's strange metric falls down for me is; the mainstream EV cars generally all exceed the average daily commute for Americans, who are supposed to be taking advantage of lower electric rates while charging at their homes over night.
Ideally -other than long road trips- an EV owner should never have to park in a parking lot for an hour or so, because everyone has electricity in their own home.

Yes, true it did not mention Rivian. My mistake, I tend to think of Rivian since they do not have the legacy baggage to carry in comparison to the Detroit 3. I can see them still having a leg up since they do not have to deal with the past as an ICE builder.

Thank you for that correction.

[balthazar]

35 minutes ago, dfelt said:

...they do not have to deal with the past as an ICE builder.

There are very tangible advantages AND disadvantages to having long time experience building a complex consumer product. I would think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages tho.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

There are very tangible advantages AND disadvantages to having long time experience building a complex consumer product. I would think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages tho.

That would be true as it applies to Tesla and their mess of assembly line production. 

In regards to Rivian, where CEO RJ has stated that it is a mistake to attempt to re-invent the wheel when you can learn from the existing auto companies. I believe he is looking at what they do right, what they have done wrong in production to side step making the mistakes Tesla has and continue to make.

We will know this fall when they go into full production and delivery and see how the quality is.

I am actually interested to see the F150 EV and Rivian R1T compared side by side and how the reviewers write it up.

[G. David Felt]

California has shut down the state and issued a first Stay at home / Stay in place order. Except for going out for food, no one is to travel. Transit shut down, state shut down. This is forcing Tesla to comply with a shutdown starting March 24th of their Fremont assembly line.

https://www.newsweek.com/california-worlds-biggest-economy-lockdown-governor-orders-residents-stay-home-1493352

https://electrek.co/2020/03/19/tesla-factory-shutdown-starting-march-24/

California is the Worlds 5th largest economy. Now shutdown, WOW ? 

[balthazar]

^ That is NOT sustainable. Traveling is not transmitting the virus.

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ That is NOT sustainable. Traveling is not transmitting the virus.

I would agree with you, but so many govs around the world are saying to flatten the curve, stop people from moving around especially those that have the virus and are in an incubation period and do not realize they are sick. Stopping them from moving around would limit their contact with others who will get sick. Sucks, I agree and I have not stopped living my life as common sense cleanliness is what keeps the healthy, healthy. Wash hands, sanitize, use tissues rather than your finger for your nose, etc. Seems common sense, but I guess not so common.

[balthazar]

Wonder if Newsom is self-quarantined in his house?

[G. David Felt]

WOW, This final report blames Tesla for not having the proper restrictions in place for the auto pilot. Truck company for employing a driver who is pretty much blind as he has blindness in one eye and tunnel vision in the other. Should have never been behind the wheel of the Semi.

I also do not agree with the Family suing Tesla and the Truck company as the father / Husband had turned on autopilot and was watching a movie when it hit the semi at 69 mph. The idiot had a responsibility to watch the road. Tesla is not Level 5 pure autonomous driving. As such, I fault the driver as much as Tesla and the truck company.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/19/ntsb-investigation-tesla-autopilot-florida-fatal-crash/

Interesting pictures recovered from the Tesla 3 auto pilot camera system as to what the car actually sees. Even with the roof cut off from going under the semi trailer and a dead driver behind the wheel, the auto continued on for another 1/3rd of a mile before the system responded and coasted to a stop.

Looks like Coronavirus might claim it's first auto maker, NIO which is based on using Tesla Tech to build two different EV CUVs. Sadly the Pandemic is hitting at a time that many startups where getting going and now we will probably see them close and die.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/18/nio-doubts-financial-report-production-deliveries-coronavirus/

[balthazar]

State should be at fault for licensing the driver. Do trucking companies routinely duplicate state testing procedures, or do they assume the state is actually certifying drivers when they give them a commercial license?

Edited March 20, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

State should be at fault for licensing the driver. Do trucking companies routinely duplicate state testing procedures, or do they assume the state is actually certifying drivers when they give them a commercial license?

Good Point, I would also agree with you on that the State is clearly at Fault too for giving a Commercial License to the guy who should not of had one.

Makes me wonder how lax their requirements are for Class 8 Drivers.

[G. David Felt]

Some very interesting news in the Electrical front: Seems Austria has isolated 53 employees of their electrical Utilities to insure that they keep the electrical grid up and running during this pandemic. This has made our own politicians bring up for discussion requiring electrical companies to isolate employees to insure the electrical grid stays up in this country.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/23/egeb-austrian-utility-employees-isolate-us-new-york-state-green-energy-1-billion/#more-127387

Tesla's  ELectric Semi truck was spotted coming back from Alaska from Winter Testing. What a dirt covered mess. LOL

https://electrek.co/2020/03/23/tesla-semi-electric-truck-spotted-coming-back-winter-testing-production/#more-127369

Seems Tesla has found ways to optimize the battery pack as Musk says they are looking at 600 miles of range on a charge for a fully loaded truck. That is impressive.

https://electrek.co/2018/05/02/tesla-semi-production-version-range-increase-elon-musk/

Tesla has committed to Semi production starting in summer 2020 with deliveries to start in the fall.

The last interesting bit of info is who would spend $69,500 for a fully converted Classic T1 Samba Bus? This is a converted old VW Vans and they can convert all T1, T2 and T3 Microbus vans. I get that some really love their old VW microbus minivans, but I have to think that waiting for the ID Buzz Microvan that is 21st century EV would make a better deal but I guess the memory of the old vans is just too strong for some in California to not do this too. Crazy but cool too.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/23/vw-and-eclassics-unveils-e-bulli-converted-electric-van-available-for-69500/#more-127324

eClassics web site where they are converting various old auto's to pure electric.

https://murschel-electric-cars.de/eclassics-bulli/

I use chrome to convert the German web site to english reading.

You Choice as it seems you can have them convert the Porsche Classic Speedster, VW bug, VW buggy or VW Samba microbus.

[G. David Felt]

Despite Covid-19 issues around the World, Polestar has started production of their Polestar 2 EV car being assembled on the same production line as the Volvo XC40.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/polestar-2-ev-production-availability-covid-19/

[G. David Felt]

Very Cool read on REAL WORLD Testing of EVs in Norway. Bet Tesla will not be happy.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/21/electric-cars-cold-weather-testing/

The Norway testing showed that the best EV was the Hyundai Kona EV. It only lost 9% of it's real world range nudging it ahead of the Tesla 3 by 1 kilometer.

On average, due to the cold, EV's averaged 18.5% reduction in real world driving range by the European testing standard. FYI, the EPA is far more conservative than the European testing cycle so usually EVs do much better than their posted range.

Based on the consistent testing of all EV's Tesla still was near last as the Tesla model S lost 23% of it's range and the Tesla 3 lost 28% of it's range even though both auto's have the largest battery pack with the longest range according to this study.

The worst performer was the Chevrolet BOLT known as the Opel Ampera-e as it lost 30% of it's range in the freezing weather test but was among the least expensive of the ev's also. Note is that GM has since updated the battery pack with longer range, faster recharging capability and enhanced cold-weather handling capabilities something that was not available on the model tested here.

Very interesting read on charging, how EVs will actually keep you constant on power delivery right up to full depletion of the battery pack and one thing they learned is that with EVs, if you turn everything off and let it sit for 1hr, you will still have enough charge to get just the motor to run for a few kilometers, long enough to get home or to a charging station.

[G. David Felt]

COOL NEWS - Jaguar iPace gains huge mileage using Magna e4 technology.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127584_prototype-drive-magna-e4-ev-is-a-300-mile-jaguar-i-pace-with-reworked-dynamics

Yes, Jaguar gave one of the concept iPace EVs to Magna to show what they could do to help the company in supplying parts. Magna took the 292 mile range EV and turned it into a 367 mile range EV with more horsepower and torque using their new motors based on the WLTP European test cycle. In the EPA cycle, this goes from 234 miles to 300 miles of range here in the US. 

Jaguar iPace comes currently with the following specifications:

• 234 miles on the 90kWh battery pack
• 394 HP AWD via two 147 kw motors

Jaguar iPace Configured using Magna e4 components:

• 300 miles on the 90kWh battery pack
• 429 HP AWD via two 160 kw motors
  • Boost mode is 483 HP AWD via 160 kw motors that change to 180 kw.
• Added Magna inverter adding Torque Vectoring to the iPace which it did not have before.
• True Decoupling of rear wheels allowing to run in FWD mode increasing range of the Battery pack.

Magna investigated 3 motors with 3 inverters much like GM is doing with the Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV which would have huge performance and mileage gains but the cost surpassed the goal of increasing performance while reducing costs. Using the Magna supplied parts reduced costs of the iPace while adding the following to the auto:

• 25% Battery range increase
• 12% better battery management due to the following
  • 6% from Magna's reengineered propulsion system
  • 4% from the AI system of managing the whole auto electrical system
  • 2% from weight reduction of 200 plus pounds.

Future tech that is being worked on, such as for slippery surfaces where one side of the auto uses regenerative braking while propulsion is on the other side to correct an auto out of a slide that gains energy recovery while adding protection of staying in control.

Now interesting is the ending of the story, Jaguar DID NOT commission this engineering study at Magna. Magna builds the iPace, Toyota Supra and BMW Z4 at their Graz Austria manufacturing plant. As such, being familiar with the iPace, they took the concept and used it for their Engineering project. Magna being a supplier to Jaguar should become a win - win situation as Jaguar supplied the iPace and their internal Data to Magna. Magna built it even better and showed how it could be improved and returned that data back to Jaguar.

As the Story ends, Jaguar has their hands full as they are in the middle of developing an AWD Electric XJ Sedan, larger jPace CUV and an equivalent Land Rover currently nicknamed Road Rover as part of their move to full EV portfolio. This looks like a decent mid-cycle refresh for the iPace as Jaguar has stated it will continue to be built for a normal model lifespan meaning a 5 to 7 year cycle. Mid-life refresh should be out for iPace by 2021, so Magna could very well increase their sales and supplies of parts for the iPace.

 

[G. David Felt]

Cool Read on the New upcoming Electric Vans from Mercedes van division. Available in a 6, 7 or 8 passenger configuration. Guess a front bench seat it out for ever, I remember when you could get 9 passenger option in Vans and full size suburbans due to the front seat being a bench seat. Still think this have value, but guess people want their middle storage section.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127573_mercedes-benz-teases-all-weather-potential-of-eqv-electric-van

I know this will make @balthazar Sad and @ocnblu Angry, but I have to say it is very cool that a British company is turning old Royal Royce's, Bentley's and Jaguars into pure EV auto's.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127574_british-firm-turning-classics-into-evs-adds-more-models-to-portfolio

Course some companies such as Jaguar offer the service themselves, but other companies are doing it too such as the one above.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1112543_jaguar-melds-old-with-new-for-e-type-zero-electric-sports-car

[balthazar]

No one cares for old jags or rolls or Bentleys. Use em all in british demo derbies (if you can keep them running long enough). Not sad. 
But a half million dollars put into a car worth 2% of that???

????????????

Edited March 25, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

Sad, but Coronavirus is hitting Tesla workers just as hard as other companies. Tesla is letting go 75% of the workforce. During this shutdown they are going to update the assembly line to automate it more.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/27/tesla-reducing-gigafactory-nevada-workforce-by-75/#more-128089

Tesla Model Y deliveries are starting and the quality is still leaving much to be desired.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/26/tesla-model-y-detailer-paint-defects-brand-electric-suv/#more-127935

[balthazar]

^ Interesting; so people are suddenly forced out of work, then while the factory is closed down, Musk brings in more robots so there's not hope of going back for many.

[G. David Felt]

Very cool on how Ford is keeping the development moving forward for the Mustang Mach e.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/03/30/ford-mustang-mach-e-development-doesnt-stop-coronavirus/2925506001/

Love the way the new doors on the Mach e open. Round buttons are embedded in the B and C pillars to open the doors. Push the Disk and the door pops open 1.5 inches. Then you grab the door and pull it the rest of the way open. Front doors have a small hook as a grab-assist. Have to say the 58 photos at the link above really show the quality that Ford is putting into the Mach e. Excited for this auto to come out.

[G. David Felt]

HISTORY TIME - Very cool writeup on when SAAB actually tried to build Electric Auto, the SAAB Mail Delivery van from the 1970's during the oil crunch with the Arabs. Lots of pictures as it is in the official SAAB museum which went with the company when it was bought to become a pure electric auto company.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/30/saab-1970s-electric-van/

[G. David Felt]

BMW is also going to give Hydrogen another try with a new Hydrogen X5 CUV out in 2022 as a 2023 model with a new 374 HP Hydrogen power train. I question that this will go anywhere but they have a commitment with the German Government and Co-developed with Toyota who is paying for the research to deliver a working power train model with so many auto's to be built. Toyota is looking to use it in medium duty trucks which will help remove toxic diesel particles. 

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/30/bmw-hydrogen-technology-detailed/

[G. David Felt]

Seems Jeep is moving forward with a Full EV / Hybrid assault as they will have the fastest and most capable off road and on road SUV's across the planet. 

Jeep clearly says there is a market and they will continue to make Hellcat versions of all their auto's, but they also need to move to cleaner emissions and that is where the EV's and especially hybrids will benefit everyone especially those that do go off road and need range plus the ability to power devices like cameras and laptops in the outback or on the Rubicon trail. Hybrid Wrangler will become the fastest on pavement and off road as it uses a pure electric drive train with generator for range plus increasing the ability that the wrangler can do off road by allowing the controllers to turn only those wheels that have actual grip giving better off road capabilities while reducing wear on the planet. Very cool tech coming.

@Robert Hall Seems your next GC could be a high Mileage Hybrid that would get crazy gas mileage.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/31/jeep-hybrid-electric-plans/

[G. David Felt]

BYD of China is launching their updated Flagship EV sedan in June using a Lithium Iron semi-solid type of Blade Battery with 50% increase in energy density. The fire resistant battery pack will have a range of 376 miles at 40% less size than competitors battery packs.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/30/byd-blade-battery-han-ev-safety/

We are living in interesting times of Tech Change.

[Robert Hall]

Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

[ykX]

35 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

I am sure they loose a little charge, the car even though when it is off still has certain functions on (security cameras few other things).  Otherwise, I think Lithium batteries have pretty good charge hold period. 

[Robert Hall]

13 minutes ago, ykX said:

I am sure they loose a little charge, the car even though when it is off still has certain functions on (security cameras few other things).  Otherwise, I think Lithium batteries have pretty good charge hold period. 

Do EVs have a normal car battery for non-propulsion functions (security camera, radio, power locks, etc?).  Seems like the accessories would be separate from the EV motor and its batteries...

Edited March 31, 2020 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Love the way the new doors on the Mach e open. Round buttons are embedded in the B and C pillars to open the doors. Push the Disk and the door pops open 1.5 inches.

Lincoln had handle-less doors with push-buttons in the '40s. Iconic, they are reproduced and are popular on customized vehicles today.

[G. David Felt]

57 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

Robert, due to technology with battery conditioning, depending on where one lives, an EV can sit for a month and only loose 1 to 2% of charge unless it is very cold or very hot and the management system to keep an optimized temp kicks on and then at most 10% of charge. Both Chevrolet and Tesla have sections on their sites about battery conditioning and battery life. No different than over time, GAS will evaporate a small amount out of your tank, batteries will loose charge. The better the design of the electronics, the longer the battery pack will hold a charge.

This is one area where I am interested to see how well the engineering is as my Escalade ESV Platinum, if it sits for a month, the battery will be dead. Cadillac has like every other luxury make a wide variety of devices that need a trickle charge to keep everything saved and ready for use. GM supposedly on their new High flow electrical system took this into account and the 2021 Escalade's are NOT supposed to have the electrical drain. Ford also has stated that they have built into the Ford Mach e capacitor holding capacity to keep the auto electronics stable for up to a month with no connected charging. As such, the trickle drain on traditional 12V batteries in auto's that do not get driven much should be minimal for those with updated modern electrical systems and especially in EVs.

Hope this helps answer your question.

18 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Do EVs have a normal car battery for non-propulsion functions (security camera, radio, power locks, etc?).  Seems like the accessories would be separate from the EV motor and its batteries...

No, The electronics in both the Bolt and Tesla models have large capacitors to store power to keep settings and power up quickly, etc. All power comes from the main single battery pack.

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

This is one area where I am interested to see how well the engineering is as my Escalade ESV Platinum, if it sits for a month, the battery will be dead. Cadillac has like every other luxury make a wide variety of devices that need a trickle charge to keep everything saved and ready for use.

I've noticed that with both of the older Cadillacs I've been around..the '00 DTS and '06 STS...I have to jump the STS if it sits too long (I start it every two weeks). 

[G. David Felt]

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Lincoln had handle-less doors with push-buttons in the '40s. Iconic, they are reproduced and are popular on customized vehicles today.

There is a new Business for you, build quality unique replacement push button covers for the Mach e and what appears to be push button access on the up coming Cadillac. Very cool I think to go back to this type of access.

[ykX]

13 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Robert, due to technology with battery conditioning, depending on where one lives, an EV can sit for a month and only loose 1 to 2% of charg

It is not really true, many owners of Tesla report "phantom" or "vampire" drain.  It seems parked Teslas loose about 30% of the charge in a month

There is a lot of this discussed if you google the terms

16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

No, The electronics in both the Bolt and Tesla models have large capacitors to store power to keep settings and power up quickly, etc. All power comes from the main single battery pack.

Tesla has 12V battery as well.  However, when it senses that 12V battery is getting low it will use the main pack to recharge it.

[balthazar]

My lithium battery tools don't show any noticeable power drain, but they've never sat for a month without working, and they don't have any power draining subsystems operating. Also, capacitors 'bleed down' over time, too.

Checked the 6V AGM battery in my COE a few weeks ago- it hasn't been run since last summer. Was down from 6.1 V to 5.3V, and I keep the battery shut-off switch on 'off' whenever I'm not running it. Not bad, but obviously there is some drain in any battery system.

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ykX said:

It is not really true, many owners of Tesla report "phantom" or "vampire" drain.  It seems parked Teslas loose about 30% of the charge in a month

There is a lot of this discussed if you google the terms

Tesla has 12V battery as well.  However, when it senses that 12V battery is getting low it will use the main pack to recharge it.

Weird the Tesla main blog area states 1 to 2% a month if not plugged in.

In regards to the battery, Tesla you are right does have a deep cycle 12V battery, but originally with the Roadster it used the main battery and in 2010 according to this detailed blog changed to a 12V battery to keep things set for electronic settings. Very weird considering you could do it with the Lithium. Need to dig into this more to find out why as I am curious.

https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/

Good info here on the Tesla's and the various 12V batteries each version uses along with a detailed image of where this battery is located.

Chevrolet Bolt when looking at the web site does not indicate any 12V battery, but I thought about it and dug up an owners manual and it does have a standard 12V battery for basic such as settings in the auto and access into the auto. Very weird as I would think they could use the auto main battery better for this. Page 22 of the owners manual states it does have a 12V battery in addition to the main power systems battery.

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2018/Chevrolet/Bolt/2018-chevrolet-bolt-ev-owners-manual.pdf

@Robert Hall I am sorry, I am wrong both Tesla and the Bolt have 12V lead acid batteries for basic settings in the auto info saving and access into the auto. if something happens to the high power system, you can still get into the auto via the 12V battery.

In regards to the discharge of the main high power battery pack, Chevrolet and Tesla official web sites are stating 1 to 2% reduction for just sitting. As @ykX has mentioned, looking around I do see Tesla owners who have posted up to 30% depletion upon sitting and it is clearly based on where one lives as the heavy drain seems to be common in cold weather areas.

[G. David Felt]

Just before shutting down all Rivian facilities they made this video to give an update on the whole business. They are still focused on production starting this fall.

 

[balthazar]

^ First rule of commercial making- show the product!

[G. David Felt]

NEW FLASH - Honda just signed with GM to use their Ultium Propulsion system and BEV 3 platform for their upcoming two new EVs.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127688_future-honda-electric-vehicles-will-be-co-developed-with-gm-could-have-super-cruise

According to the news release, Honda EV's will be built at GM North America Plants for the Americas Market.

To Quote GM: For GM, it means more production volume, and the chance that the company will reach economies of scale on its Ultium investments sooner. GM president Mark Reuss recently said that about 60% of the company's product development work is now toward EVs, versus 20% just a few years ago.

To Quote Honda:"As EV volume increases, both companies will be able to more rapidly achieve economies of scale, reduce cost and provide value for both our companies and our respective customers," said Jeffrey Smith, Honda North America VP for corporate communications.

Seems this should allow both companies to make a profit and have low cost entry level auto's  on top of mid and luxury version EVs.

 

[ocnblu]

Honda is no dummy.  They are letting GM pay the price for money losing tech no one wants.  It's called risk management and it is a brilliant move by Honda, we've all heard their stance on EVs... they see no reason to invest heavily in BS.  This is for Honda to be compliant with draconian regulations that are counter-customer.

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Honda is no dummy.  They are letting GM pay the price for money losing tech no one wants.  It's called risk management and it is a brilliant move by Honda, we've all heard their stance on EVs... they see no reason to invest heavily in BS.  This is for Honda to be compliant with draconian regulations that are counter-customer.

Maybe, but if EVs do explode in sales and threaten the used car market, then Honda was wise in pursuing what looks like a strategic alliance.  EVs, especially BEVs, need to be cheap enough so nobody will want a lightly used ICE vehicle.  Otherwise it is all for naught.

[balthazar]

So; GM powertrain, GM platform, built in GM plant. Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge. I fully expect to see Honda roasted for this lame effort, just like GM has been for the same thing numerous times in the past.

WRT ‘both companies can make a profit’ - wow; where’s the body of evidence to suggest that?

Edited April 4, 2020 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge.

Sounds like a Generi-mobile experience, to the max yo.  Honda cultists will turn away in droves.  ZERO Honda personality means it will be a lump.  Sparky The Lump shall be his name.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Sounds like a Generi-mobile experience,

Any econobox FWD sedan, coupe, CUV made from 1975ish up until April 4, 2020 from any manufacturer fits into that description right there. 

I dont understand why you only target EVs that way...

These arent even econoboxes...just generic GM FWD re-badges. 

and have a personality of dry, whole wheat toasted bread.

OK...the Caddy with that weak ass transverse V8 is butterless whole wheat toasted bread with a smidgen of orange marmalade.  Not even strawberry jam but shytty orange marmalade... 

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Honda cultists will turn away in droves.  ZERO Honda personality means it will be a lump.

Oh...look...its got amber style fog lamps,. This is EXACTLY what maniacal Honda fanbois and gals WANT from their cars...  (up high mind you making them totally useless in foggy conditions but that discussion is for another day).  

Yeah... "VTEC just kicked in Yo"  just  oozes from this machine...

 

 

 

[ocnblu]

That CR-V is BITCHIN' yo!

[balthazar]

55 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

These arent even econoboxes...just generic GM FWD re-badges. 

Oh no; that's ‘horizontal integration’, or ‘current industry trending’, or whatever you want to call what automakers are increasingly moving to — using basically the same platform under multiple models! It’s the fo-shizzal, the new whammy mammy!

What it’s NOT is buying a vehicle built by another OEM and CHANGING THE BADGE ON IT. Can’t think of what that’s called, but there’s a term for it...

[riviera74]

Wow.  80s J-bodies, N-bodies and A-bodies.  Sad era.  And people wonder how Olds and Buick lost so much market share by 1990.  And how Cadillac went from luxury leader to total has been by 1992.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

It’s the fo-shizzal, the new whammy mammy!

That is what was funny.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Oh no; that's ‘horizontal integration’, or ‘current industry trending’, or whatever you want to call what automakers are increasingly moving to

I honestly never shunned GM for badge engineering. Well...to the extreme that auto journalists and haters do to this day.  VW did to a better job of badge engineering marketing wise and better job of differentiating in the 1980s and 1990s, but today, you could clearly see (if one chooses to take the VW blinders off) that VW has done a shytty job of badge engineering the last 20 years... As bad as GM was doing it during those 1980s and 1990s...

Honda and Toyota...if one chose to take the blinders off back then...would see that their badge engineering efforts were the SAME as GM's in the 1980s and 1990s.  Its their marketing department that was better than GM's... 

But in order to see that...one has to take off the blinders. One has to ease up on the GM hate and one has to ump their sarcastic view they have on GM and transfer that to Honda, Toyota and VW...

I just wished GM had better marketing then and today to offset the badge engineering efforts.  

 

 

[balthazar]

I was actually being quite serious (despite the appearances otherwise). Products by the same OEM aren’t remotely in the same category as buying vehicles from your competition. 
An ‘80s Pontiac LeMans or a later Vibe are rebadges. The DTS-ish Cadillac above is not remotely that.

Edited April 5, 2020 by balthazar

[riviera74]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

I was actually being quite serious (despite the appearances otherwise). Products by the same OEM aren’t remotely in the same category as buying vehicles from your competition. 
An ‘80s Pontiac LeMans or a later Matrix are rebadges. The DTS-ish Cadillac above is not remotely that.

I agree about that mid-80s Sedan deVille listed above. 

Once upon a time, GM would have the same bodies but a lot of differentiation.  Then came homologation in the 1970s which got even worse in the 80s and 90s.  Hence why Olds and Buick lost so much market share for the last quarter of the 20th Century (and the death of Olds in 2004, even though Olds was trying to move away from that as early as the '95 Aurora and the '98 Intrigue).

[G. David Felt]

On 4/3/2020 at 8:04 PM, balthazar said:

So; GM powertrain, GM platform, built in GM plant. Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge. I fully expect to see Honda roasted for this lame effort, just like GM has been for the same thing numerous times in the past.

WRT ‘both companies can make a profit’ - wow; where’s the body of evidence to suggest that?

So like the Toyota and GM alliance that Toyota made profit on the re-badge of the Matrix, aka Pontiac Vibe. 

Maybe this time, Honda will fail if they do not have a true different style and GM will be the profit maker.

Interesting times, Interesting