Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

There have been, engines have become waaaay more efficient so your savings is less fuel used. 

Not when the total price of the car has gone up during that same time.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Not when the total price of the car has gone up during that same time.

Considering fuel prices are virtually identical to 1950 but vehicles are roughly twice as efficient, id say you're saving money.

1950 fuel price: $0.27 = $2.97 in 2020

1950 average fuel economy of 15mpg

2019 average fuel economy: 25.2mpg. 

Same money out of pocket, quite a bit further traveled. 

Fun fact, fuel economy dropped nearly year from 1950 until the lowest point in the early 70's when it's been creeping up ever since. 

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-741-august-20-2012-historical-gasoline-prices-1929-2011

https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=pTB0208

https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report#:~:text=Figure ES-1.&text=Fuel economy increased by 0.2,0.4 mpg to 25.5 mpg.

 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Considering fuel prices are virtually identical to 1950 but vehicles are roughly twice as efficient, id say you're saving money.

1950 fuel price: $0.27 = $2.97 in 2020

1950 average fuel economy of 15mpg

2019 average fuel economy: 25.2mpg. 

Same money out of pocket, quite a bit further traveled. 

Fun fact, fuel economy dropped nearly year from 1950 until the lowest point in the early 70's when it's been creeping up ever since. 

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-741-august-20-2012-historical-gasoline-prices-1929-2011

https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=pTB0208

https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report#:~:text=Figure ES-1.&text=Fuel economy increased by 0.2,0.4 mpg to 25.5 mpg.

 

Car prices have outpaced wages during that time. Again, no savings. And electricity for EVs is cheaper than gas for ICE. And the core point was auto companies passing on savings to consumers, which has not happened. Go back to the first part of the conversation between Balth and myself.

[ccap41]

On 12/20/2020 at 6:52 AM, surreal1272 said:

Maybe not the best example but the basic tech for ICE has not changed in the last century yet not one savings passed onto the consumer.

This is all I was commenting on. Which, we have had fuel savings passed on to us. 

[G. David Felt]

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

There have been, engines have become waaaay more efficient so your savings is less fuel used. 

I have to question this statement.

IF THIS IS TRUE, then we would still have V8 engines in every auto out there and not the few V6, Majority Turbo 4 and 3 bangers.

What Americans tend to like is Big full Size auto's and that used to be some very cool cars and now is replaced by Trucks and SUVs with AWD. As such, fuel economy is not more efficient on the current engines but by a very small amount.

HOW CAN I SAY THIS?

Easy, look at the crazy EPA figures for Ford EcoBoost or GM turbo engines and yet when they are driven to enjoy the power and boost, the MPG is in the Toilet and that has been posted all over the internet by people owning these auto's.

So I say we HAVE NOT seen ICE become more efficient in MPG.

WE HAVE seen ICE become more efficient in POWER, be it HP and Torque. It still takes lots of Petro to make those numbers and if you do not drive like a little old senior, then you do not really see the MPG benefits.

ICE can become far more efficient when pared with a proper HYBRID system. This has been proven with the Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid as well as many others. Exception is Honda who has had Hybrid Auto's, early models were very fuel efficient, later models all are about performance, not MPG.

[balthazar]

If the average MPG in '76 was 12.1 and the average in 2010 was 17.5... that's an increase of 45%.
For people who groove on percentages, that's unquestionably a huge increase.

Now... an overall average is not an apples-to-apples comparison. So what is?

'76 Corvette, based on 90 fill-ups on 6 different cars, returned a combined average of 9.9 MPG (~fuelly.com). In 2021 the Corvette is rated at 19 combined, with a bump in displacement from 350 to 376 CI, and a bump in HP from 180 to 490. The Corvette is possibly the most 'pure' case study for automotive evolution, as it's general size, mission, engine & curb weight are almost identical between those 2 distant years.

BTW, that 9.9 > 19 is an increase in efficiency of 92%.

Edited December 22, 2020 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

5 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The internal combustion engine and ALL of its infrastructure  took DECADES...close to a CENTURY to be an almost perfect way of powering a horse carriage. Even the horse carriage itself took 2 bloody decades to become its own thing and become a...well...car. 

FAKE NEWS.  It was barely HALF a century from the 1890's to the (give or take) 1930's for the gasoline powered car to come fully into its own.

[balthazar]

Alternative Propulsion :
 

[oldshurst442]

It took a century for the gasoline powered car to be perfected is what I said.  To be almost perfect.

I said it took decades for all that to be in place. And a century to be perfected.

I said it took 2 bloody decades for the horseless carriage to be a car.

Nothing I said is fakenews. 

All that I wrote is true.

Nothing in the 1930s, was perfected for the gasoline powered car.

No highway system. No autobahn. No gasoline stores at every corner.  

Automatic transmissions came in at the very end of the 1930s.

1930s gasoline powered cars were waaay better than what came before.  A huuuge step forward from the previous decade and before, but still primitive.   It took another 40-50 years for this to be perfected...to where we are today. Today...all the roads, the gas stations, the pumping of oil and refining and transport of the final gasoline product,  the car dealership network, the marketing, the planning and execution of production of automobiles,  is a reflex of everyday life.

THAT is what I said. 

It took a CENTURY to perfect  a near perfect system for the internal combustion powered car....

If you and Balthy (becausse he upvoted your mispoken and very ill informed comprehension of my post) well, nothing I could do otherwise...

But here we are:

A decade into a REAL engineering push for  electric cars and its battery tech, as compared to even the 1890s-1930s comparison you are so proud of trying to show me up...and you still fail...

1890s-1930s is 40 years...

Tesla and Toyota with Hybrid tech and its ONLY been a decade, give or take a couple of years...

Even if you wanna include GMs EV1 of the mid 1990s, that would ONLY be 25 years...

But hey...  @ocnblu...way to teach me a thing or two.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ocnblu]

Curious as to how you'd answer a yes or no question.

 

[balthazar]

Olds- I'd take issue with a number of your statements above, to the point I cannot agree that everything you stated is 100% factual. For one, toyoter has been selling hybrid autos for 23 years, not "10 =/- a couple". prius came out the end of 1997.

I'll not go point-by-point, primarily because I cannot quantify your definition of 'perfected'.

But I believe you are talking about the general 'ease of everyday use' of the auto (via the mention of interstates & commonplace gas stations). I am of the opinion that there was a point that the auto reached that FOR IT'S TIME. There... I believe that point came  about circa 1920 rather than the year 2000 ('a century'). FOR IT'S TIME, the auto had evolved beyond a rare plaything / conversation piece, and had become more & more integral to life. Of course, it was the Model T (debuted in 1908) that afforded that; low price, economical, mass produced, easily serviced, multiple variants.

No; there was no interstate in 1920... but there wasn't a need for such at that point. Infrastructure developments encourage alternate use. Prior to WWII, most folk stayed in their general area, and commonly produced a LOT of their own consumables & supplies. They never had to screech to Costco when a snowstorm was coming...

[oldshurst442]

^^^ It dont matter about quantifying when cars were perfected with ease of  ownership and the like.

The point is...even with Toyoter's Hybrds in 1997...the POINT is that, even by your own admission,  Ocnblu's words to be exact, by the 1930s, ease of gas powered cars came into its own.  

And what you go on to say on the post above.

Lets be real though. We havent yet reached the time lapse of today's BEVs to get to that point in time to EQUAL the gasoline powered cars time of coming into their own.

We havent reach a time for an EV Model T equivalent yet. There is no such EV on sale as we speak.  

Most BEVs on sale as of now...are of the Duesenberg equivalent variety. 

But to make a comparison and an EQUAL statement of this quote with BEVs

25 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No; there was no interstate in 1920... but there wasn't a need for such at that point. Infrastructure developments encourage alternate use. Prior to WWII, most folk stayed in their general area, and commonly produced a LOT of their own consumables & supplies. They never had to screech to Costco when a snowstorm was coming...

No; there arent as many charge stations as there are gas stations, but for daily driving back and forth to work, there isnt a need for such as charging from home is a reality for most folk who buy a BEV.  Prior to Tesla, Hybrids were mostly used as an electric alternative. People with hybrids never had to screech to charge up at a...Costco.  Just fill 'er up at the Costco with gas. 

Point being, EVs at this stage, in 2020 are about where ICE cars were in the 1920s.  Late 1920s early 1930s. 

Teslas as EVs are just about as advanced and fast as Duesenbergs were in those same late '20s and into the '30s.

Rivian, Lucid could be what Mercedes, Cadillacs and Rolls Royces were at that time too. Except that even in December of 2020 and heading into 2021, Rivian and Lucid arent even ready to sell 1 bloody car yet, but Mercedes, Cadillacs and Rolls Royces were household names by the 1920s...

Tesla is the ONLY one...

To boot, BEVs dont even have a Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet equivalent to boost the sales to the mainstream for the BEV to be revolutionary to the common man the way Fords, Chevys and Dodges were to the common folk in the . THAT started as EARLY as 1908 as you stated for the gas powered car.  BEVs and steam powered cars were actually a thing in those days. But it took a Model T and the production line to cement the gasoline powered car to what it is today.  

Tesla is the ONLY one in 2020 doing the heavy lifting for BEVs.  

THAT is what you get when the internal combustion engine has had 100 years to develop and to perfect and to simplify and make life easy to own such a contraption.   

Some of that easiness and perfection, a BEV takes advantage of (roads, highways, drive-through fast food windows and banks...) and others, the BEV has to create its own...

Its not fair to discuss the 100 years of ICE development JUST to look down on BEVs.   ICE is superior  has an advantage BECAUSE it has had 100 years to be PERFECTED.  Battery electric motorvation has a potential.  A real potential.     To deny that is to be naïve. If not naïve, disingenuous then. 

Another point:

To believe that BEVs are not exciting...then that is a bunch of hooie! 

But Ill entertain that thought.  If one is to think that BEVs are just appliances, well, the gas powered car started that way of thinking a looong time ago waaaaay before MODERN BEVs came into play.  Nope, it didnt start in the 1970s either. It started WITH the Model T waaay back in 1908.

It was a tool for the common man to use to go to work. To use as a truck on his farm etc...

It brought the mythical horseless carriage to the masses.  It had a whopping 20 HP.   The Model A double its power to a mind blowing 40 HP.  Meanwhile, the real fast toys over at Bentley, Rolls Royce and Duesenberg all had 250-400 HP...   

Yeah yeah...hot rodding and muscle cars...

Face the truth...the very gas powered car that made America also implanted a seed that cars are appliances.  It took time a very long time for that seed to grow, but station wagons, minivans and SUVs is what became of that Model T appliance seed...and all of those vehicles I mentioned is what most Americans have bought since the 1960s...  Oh...let us not forget the pick-up truck.  As fun as the pick-up truck maybe today with Raptor and TREX variants, the pick-up truck still represents the mundane work-horse and family hauler appliance piece the Model T was invented as...

All to say...

Modern BEVs havent reached the timelines of those early gas powered cars yet.  However, the milestones that gas-powered cars reached in those first 30-40  years, the modern BEVS are attaining them as we speak in a shorter time frame. 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, David said:

I have to question this statement.

IF THIS IS TRUE, then we would still have V8 engines in every auto out there and not the few V6, Majority Turbo 4 and 3 bangers.

What Americans tend to like is Big full Size auto's and that used to be some very cool cars and now is replaced by Trucks and SUVs with AWD. As such, fuel economy is not more efficient on the current engines but by a very small amount.

HOW CAN I SAY THIS?

Easy, look at the crazy EPA figures for Ford EcoBoost or GM turbo engines and yet when they are driven to enjoy the power and boost, the MPG is in the Toilet and that has been posted all over the internet by people owning these auto's.

So I say we HAVE NOT seen ICE become more efficient in MPG.

WE HAVE seen ICE become more efficient in POWER, be it HP and Torque. It still takes lots of Petro to make those numbers and if you do not drive like a little old senior, then you do not really see the MPG benefits.

ICE can become far more efficient when pared with a proper HYBRID system. This has been proven with the Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid as well as many others. Exception is Honda who has had Hybrid Auto's, early models were very fuel efficient, later models all are about performance, not MPG.

 

[G. David Felt]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

 

Thank you for proving my point that Trucks are pretty much the only place outside of large size SUVs that you still find a V8 and with MPG to match what we have seen over the last few decades.

[balthazar]

Trucks & SUVs are the vast vast vast majority of the market.

And : 14 MPG > 19 MPG = 33% increase in 20 years... from heavier trucks with a lot more power.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, David said:

Thank you for proving my point that Trucks are pretty much the only place outside of large size SUVs that you still find a V8 and with MPG to match what we have seen over the last few decades.

If you genuinely believe the same technology that's made truck engines more efficient WAS NOT also used to make every other vehicle's engine as efficient as they are, I truly believe you're delusional. 

Also, how is that showing MPG matches the 21 year old truck? 

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Trucks & SUVs are the vast vast vast majority of the market.

And : 14 MPG > 19 MPG = 33% increase in 20 years... from heavier trucks with a lot more power.

Don't forget how much physically larger they are. It's a much larger chunk of metal busting through air. 

[surreal1272]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:56 PM, ocnblu said:

Curious as to how you'd answer a yes or no question.

 

Curious statement for someone who never answers ANY questions.

 

Mr. Cerebral lol.

Edited December 23, 2020 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:39 PM, ccap41 said:

This is all I was commenting on. Which, we have had fuel savings passed on to us. 

Any fuel "savings" is mostly due to US (cough*socialism 101*cough) subsidies of the oil industry over the last hundred years. 

 

I get what you were saying but that was not the core part of the back and forth between Balth and myself. If we are going to bring up fueling fine, let's try this.

 

The average EV with minimum 200 miles of range, cost roughly around $9 to full charge (some places are cheaper than and some are more). That is FAR cheaper than a gas fill up on any ICE outside of a hybrid that gets 50MPG. (based on the same 200 mile range) and all of that can be done from your home while you sleep. Even if you account for a 220V home charger installation (for quick charging), it would cost "slightly" more to hardline a gas pump to your home and do the same thing with that. Just offering a little "outside the box" thinking here.

[ccap41]

49 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Any fuel "savings" is mostly due to US (cough*socialism 101*cough) subsidies of the oil industry over the last hundred years. 

 

I get what you were saying but that was not the core part of the back and forth between Balth and myself. If we are going to bring up fueling fine, let's try this.

 

The average EV with minimum 200 miles of range, cost roughly around $9 to full charge (some places are cheaper than and some are more). That is FAR cheaper than a gas fill up on any ICE outside of a hybrid that gets 50MPG. (based on the same 200 mile range) and all of that can be done from your home while you sleep. Even if you account for a 220V home charger installation (for quick charging), it would cost "slightly" more to hardline a gas pump to your home and do the same thing with that. Just offering a little "outside the box" thinking here.

But does the new battery technology yield you cheaper "fillups"? or a further distance traveled on the same price to "fillup"? I know EVs cost less to drive from A to B but the point was insinuated consumer savings based on improved technological advances. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by ccap41

[ccap41]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:06 PM, David said:

I have to question this statement.

IF THIS IS TRUE, then we would still have V8 engines in every auto out there and not the few V6, Majority Turbo 4 and 3 bangers.

What Americans tend to like is Big full Size auto's and that used to be some very cool cars and now is replaced by Trucks and SUVs with AWD. As such, fuel economy is not more efficient on the current engines but by a very small amount.

HOW CAN I SAY THIS?

Easy, look at the crazy EPA figures for Ford EcoBoost or GM turbo engines and yet when they are driven to enjoy the power and boost, the MPG is in the Toilet and that has been posted all over the internet by people owning these auto's.

So I say we HAVE NOT seen ICE become more efficient in MPG.

WE HAVE seen ICE become more efficient in POWER, be it HP and Torque. It still takes lots of Petro to make those numbers and if you do not drive like a little old senior, then you do not really see the MPG benefits.

ICE can become far more efficient when pared with a proper HYBRID system. This has been proven with the Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid as well as many others. Exception is Honda who has had Hybrid Auto's, early models were very fuel efficient, later models all are about performance, not MPG.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

But does the new battery technology yield you cheaper "fillups"? or a further distance traveled on the same price to "fillup"? I know EVs cost less to drive from A to B but the point was insinuated consumer savings based on improved technological advances. 

Yes out side of the abuse from Police departments on EVs that caused higher costs to check everything, EVs are still cheaper as no Oil Changes, Differential fluid changes, power steering pump changes, etc. etc. etc.

For the average user, the EVs cost less to run and maintain than an ICE auto.

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

 

And not a single one can perform like a V8 Powered auto does car, truck or SUV from the past. Not  a single one of those cars can tow a boat like the old full size V8 powered cars could. If you put a trailer hitch on them, that MPG would be in the toilet.

Producing power, yes, Torque, a bit, but that MPG would not handle what traditional V8 powered cars could do.

I do believe EVs will clearly show as we get the mid and full size models to market that they can outperform what the 3 & 4 bangers are doing.

[G. David Felt]

EV News,

Been an interesting week for EV news. First is the Hyundai Ioniq 5 launch that is coming and someone accidentally leaked the specs. Ioniq 5 midsize CUV will be available for sale Q2 of 2021.

• Technical specifications:

• Electric motor power: 230 kW / 313 PS
• Drive: All wheel drive
• Standard range according to WLTP: 450 km
• Acceleration: 5.2 seconds 0-100 km/h

• Charging processes:

• Schuko socket 1-phase: up to 2.3 kW
• Wallbox at home, 1- or 2-phase: up to 11 kW
• AC accelerated charging: at a public charging station up to 11 kW
• DC fast-charging: In 15 minutes from 20% to 80% charge possible, thanks to 800-volt technology

• Dimensions:

• Length: 4,460 mm
• Width: 1,890 mm
• Height: 1,600 mm
• Wheelbase: 3,000 mm

So seems a 280 mile battery pack that uses the 800V system of charging with AWD.

Hyundai accidentally leaks IONIQ 5 electric car specs and it's not bad - Electrek

 

Seems NIKOLA is a slow dying company. They originally signed a deal to provide several waste companies with zero-emission garbage trucks. That has been canceled as it seems it is too hard to engineer according to the news stories. Seems while MACK and VOLVO have built and is selling EV garbage trucks and Daimler has announced they will go into production next year with a Garbage truck for global sale, Nikola has failed to deliver.

Nikola (NKLA) kills deal to make electric garbage trucks because it's too hard? - Electrek

 

Seems that the software fix to correct the frozen charge cable locked onto Tesla Auto's in Europe was to cycle the lock pin up and down constantly. As such, it would be locked one second and the next would not be locked. As such, the home charging cables cost $520.00 online from Tesla  web site. Seems a black market has shown up with cables being stolen and resold.

Thieves are stealing Tesla charging cables, some are suspecting lock defect in cold - Electrek

 

VW has officially killed the e-Golf auto as the superior ID.3 has picked up in sales to the point that no one wants the compliance e-Golf. Over the 6 year life of the e-Golf, VW produced 145,561 of those electric cars. They have now found themselves with enough sales of the ID.3 to justify killing the e-Golf and using that assembly line to produce the same number of e-Golfs but as the ID.3 within the first year.

VW ends production of electric e-Golf in favor of new ID.3 - Electrek

 

FORD F-150 EV truck is showing how it can handle the snow and offroad. Seems it is on schedule for production launch in Q2 of 2022, so a late spring early summer release for sale.

 

Final bit of GREEN News is that New Jersey, @balthazar Should be happy that the Offshore wind industry has started production with a Monopile factory in NJ.

New Jersey trailblazes with monopile factory for US offshore wind - Electrek

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

Yes out side of the abuse from Police departments on EVs that caused higher costs to check everything

Ahhh so THAT'S going to be the spin on this analysis, eh?
I thought 'all motorists are lazy and 'abuse' their vehicles'?  Wouldn't the same 'abuse' on the IC police car have resulted in even GREATER maintenance costs??

You might have to go back to the conspiracy board on this one.

 

1 hour ago, David said:

Differential fluid changes, power steering pump changes

whatareyoutalkingabout.

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, David said:

Yes out side of the abuse from Police departments on EVs that caused higher costs to check everything, EVs are still cheaper as no Oil Changes, Differential fluid changes, power steering pump changes, etc. etc. etc.

For the average user, the EVs cost less to run and maintain than an ICE auto.

That is not what the initial conversation was about. Obviously, we know that already(supposedly but it's yet to be proven). It was about the costs of the engine(batteries) advancing technologically and giving us greater efficiency. 

Battery A from 2000 costs $10 to fill-up and drive 200 miles.

Battery B from 2025 costs $10 to fill-up and drive 200 miles.

Engine A from 2000 averages 24mpg

Engine B from 2020 averages 33mpg

Battery capacities are improving and their density is improving but cost per kw to charge will be the same. 

10 hours ago, David said:

And not a single one can perform like a V8 Powered auto does car, truck or SUV from the past. Not  a single one of those cars can tow a boat like the old full size V8 powered cars could. If you put a trailer hitch on them, that MPG would be in the toilet.

Producing power, yes, Torque, a bit, but that MPG would not handle what traditional V8 powered cars could do.

I do believe EVs will clearly show as we get the mid and full size models to market that they can outperform what the 3 & 4 bangers are doing.

I literally already showed you Chevy 5.3's gain in efficiency over the last 20 years. I haven't once compared a turbo 6 to a V8. Everything I've showed you have been n/a engines, including the compact cars. I've kept the comparison as close as possible. 

In fact, I don't even know why you're comparing to turbo engines.

I would actually like for you to prove to me that the internal combustion engine has NOT gotten more efficient over the last 20-70 years. You choose the range. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Ahhh so THAT'S going to be the spin on this analysis, eh?
I thought 'all motorists are lazy and 'abuse' their vehicles'?  Wouldn't the same 'abuse' on the IC police car have resulted in even GREATER maintenance costs??

You might have to go back to the conspiracy board on this one.

 

whatareyoutalkingabout.

Seems to me that he made it pretty clear. Those are all things that have to be addressed at some point with an ICE auto. Not sur ehow one can be confused about that.

[balthazar]

What “has” to be addressed; differential fluid changes?? ?

[balthazar]

Article from autoblog on an Electrify America experience. Seems interesting.
>>Guilty as slowly charged: Electrify America site lazily energizes a Ford Mustang Mach-E<<

https://autos.yahoo.com/guilty-charged-electrify-america-delivers-153000842.html

>>"...I saw the charger screen insisting electricity was being delivered at 74.2 kilowatts. That was only about half the 150-kilowatt rate touted on the machine’s placard, and I would have happily taken it. The actual trickle of juice going into the Ford was 20 kilowatts at best; a fraction of the expected rate, and only about twice as fast as a piddling, 11-kilowatt Level 2 home charger."<<

- - - - -
Im my recent research into local spots via plugshare, I saw that inoperable chargers were a very regular thing. Here's another example- 12 plugs with 2 inoperable. Not that big a deal here, but check the article to see a 150 kW charger deliver 20 kW (and he tried all 10).

 

[oldshurst442]

Tesla not only has the best EV tech and software (and the yahoo dude does mention that the Mach E compares and competes very favorably with the Model Y), Tesla also has a better charging infrastructure.  

His words:

Quote

 

As I wrote in my review, the Mustang Mach-E is one impressive EV, one that stands tall against the Tesla Model Y in most competitive measures. But Tesla’s foresight and investment in its own proprietary network remains a key competitive advantage, right up there with its edge in electric efficiency and range.

While I was standing in the rain at Target, twiddling my thumbs, I had ample time to mull that over — and realize that Ford and the rest still have some catching up to do.

 

 

And well, I do realize that one component for success for EVs is a substantial and reliable and kick ass charging system.  

And if the rest of the EV makers out there will rely on a shytty one like this, it will be an uphill battle. 

On the other hand,  Tesla will continue to rack of those EV sales, and if electrifying the world will be SOLEY made by Tesla, then so be it...

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Exciting solar panel news. A berlin scientific group combined two types of solar cell technology and ended up with a solar panel getting 30% efficiency. In other words it captured the energy of the sun at a 30% success rate. 

One would ask why is that such a big deal? Current Solar Panels are only 19 to 20% efficient in capturing the sun's energy. A 10% increase in capture rate means more power and faster energy for recharging. The scientist also go on to say they believe they can increase the efficiency rate even more as they move forward in their research. Currently this will help to drive Solar Power energy capture to a much higher level.

Scientists set a solar cell efficiency world record - Electrek

First experience review of the Mustang Mach-E that is just now beginning to get delivered to dealerships.

 

[A Horse With No Name]

Mach E looks good in that color.

[oldshurst442]

23 hours ago, David said:

Exciting solar panel news. A berlin scientific group combined two types of solar cell technology and ended up with a solar panel getting 30% efficiency. In other words it captured the energy of the sun at a 30% success rate. 

One would ask why is that such a big deal? Current Solar Panels are only 19 to 20% efficient in capturing the sun's energy. A 10% increase in capture rate means more power and faster energy for recharging. The scientist also go on to say they believe they can increase the efficiency rate even more as they move forward in their research. Currently this will help to drive Solar Power energy capture to a much higher level.

Scientists set a solar cell efficiency world record - Electrek

First experience review of the Mustang Mach-E that is just now beginning to get delivered to dealerships.

 

 

I click in the video. I hear the presenter's voice and accent almost immediately at the start of the video. The accent is very familiar to me.  Im very at home with this presenters voice. Sounds like a Quebecker speaking Hae-english that I sometimes cringe in hearing, but other times I welcome with open arms.  

As he explains the exterior design features and slowly goes to the back of the car, I eagerly await the angle of the camera to capture the license plate...  DAMN!  Its a manufacturer plate.  

Looks like I have to look for the scenic backround to try to tell if this video was filmed in Quebec...

Nothing to see as he was in a rural area. It did look like it could be in Quebec. I did see a 80 speed limit sign. Im assuming its KM/H as 80 MPH is quite...fast.  

This guy is French Canadian...no doubt and Im LOVING it!   Im willing to bet the video was filmed in Quebec. 

Anyway...the review was to the point. Excellent. But now...Im curious to know from the Yahoo Mach E review, Id like to know how good the Electrify America charging network really is.   The Mach E is undoubtedly a great EV.  But Tesla has got a great charging system too.  The battleground for EV domination also is fought over charging networks... 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

I click in the video. I hear the presenter's voice and accent almost immediately at the start of the video. The accent is very familiar to me.  Im very at home with this presenters voice. Sounds like a Quebecker speaking Hae-english that I sometimes cringe in hearing, but other times I welcome with open arms.  

As he explains the exterior design features and slowly goes to the back of the car, I eagerly await the angle of the camera to capture the license plate...  DAMN!  Its a manufacturer plate.  

Looks like I have to look for the scenic backround to try to tell if this video was filmed in Quebec...

Nothing to see as he was in a rural area. It did look like it could be in Quebec. I did see a 80 speed limit sign. Im assuming its KM/H as 80 MPH is quite...fast.  

This guy is French Canadian...no doubt and Im LOVING it!   Im willing to bet the video was filmed in Quebec. 

Anyway...the review was to the point. Excellent. But now...Im curious to know from the Yahoo Mach E review, Id like to know how good the Electrify America charging network really is.   The Mach E is undoubtedly a great EV.  But Tesla has got a great charging system too.  The battleground for EV domination also is fought over charging networks... 

I would agree that the review is from Canada. The North American Charging network is a mix as you find plenty of charging points on the west coast, a base start on the East Coast and little in the mid-west but they all are growing. Going to be very interesting in 2025 when we should have over 60 EVs on the market in North America.

[oldshurst442]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-narrowly-misses-goal-of-100000-electric-vehicles-on-the-road-1.5856007

 

Since the Quebec government's big push of promoting EVs in 2012, 92 000 new EVs have been sold.  The target was 100 000.  Narrowly missing the target. Still a success though and more and more Quebecois are accepting an all EV future. 

And a little tidbit of info and concerns for EVs from a Quebec perspective. Same ones we have been discussing here at CheersandGears. 

 

Quote

 

For Poëti, the real problem is most folks can't afford an electric car. 

"People who have [an electric car], they're men who are on average 46 years old," he said. "Their salary ranges between $70,000 and $80,000."

Among the other factors that may have curbed consumers' enthusiasm in recent years: a relatively modest number of charging stations, Quebec's sprawling geography and electric cars' limited range, which decreases during episodes of extreme cold, said Poëti. 

"I can't bring Gaspésie closer to Quebec and I can't bring Abitibi closer to Montreal," he said. 

Looking ahead

The good news is waiting lists for green cars at dealerships are getting shorter. 

"We've noticed in recent months that some manufacturers have gone to great lengths [...] and we are starting to see results," said the AVEQ's Rioux.

He acknowledged the cost of buying an electric car is still high, but it's become progressively cheaper for mulitiple car manufacturers to produce them over the past decade.

"Not only have we increased the range of vehicles, but we've managed to lower the cost," Rioux said. "They're the only vehicles on the market whose cost is dropping."

There are also federal and provincial government financial incentives of up to $13,000 for the purchase of a new fully electric vehicle.

Add it all up and Rioux thinks the provincial government's most recent goal of having 1.5 million electric cars on the road by 2030 is "doable."

• Quebec to ban sale of new gas-powered vehicles as of 2035

Roughly 50 per cent of green cars sold in Canada are purchased in Quebec, which Poëti said indicates Quebec's is "the most conscientious" population in the country.

Since 2012, the Quebec government has spent more than $576 million to encourage the sale of electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles through its Roulez vert program.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

I may have missed the news announcement; back at the end of November, Rivian announced a price HIKE- the R1T will now be $75,000 to start, and the R1S will start at $77,500.

[G. David Felt]

On 12/31/2020 at 9:43 AM, balthazar said:

I may have missed the news announcement; back at the end of November, Rivian announced a price HIKE- the R1T will now be $75,000 to start, and the R1S will start at $77,500.

These two prices is their Launch Edition prices. Basic prices have not changed.

Base R1T starts at $67,500

Base R1S starts at $70,000 still.

[G. David Felt]

EV News update for the start of the Year.

Seems Tesls Model S refresh has been caught out in the wild. Maybe to Tesla fans they see a difference, but to me, seems more of the same old BLAH style.

 

Tesla delivered a Record 180,000 autos in Q4 just missing their goal of 500,000 auto's delivered for 2020.

Numbers for the number folks.

Tesla (TSLA) delivers record of 180,000 cars in Q4, barely missing goal of 500,000 cars in 2020 - Electrek

For those that have any knowledge of AC versus Heat pumps. In the commercial world, heat pumps are far superior to AC units but do cost more. The benefits is a better balance of Humidity control with cooling as well as heating for a far more comfortable house living.

Now with auto's, the history has been to use a traditional power sucking electric heat system or the heat system based on the cooling system of the ICE power train. Course with EVs, you need a pure electrical heating system. Even the best ceramic core heating systems still use a ton of electricity. As such, heat pumps are far more efficient than the current heating systems EVs have been using and Tesla changed this for 2021 model 3 and Model Y auto's. 

As such, the Tesla Designed heat pumps have FAILED in a MAJOR way for COLD CLIMATE areas such as Quebec, NE of America, Alaska. Seems that the Heat Pumps designed and testing in California work great till you get freezing or below temps and then fail to work. 

As the story states in Quebec Canada, the Tesla Service centers are giving 2021 Model 3 and Y owners 2020 long term loaners as they stock pile the 2021 models in for warranty repair till Tesla has a proper fix.

Tesla owners of brand-new Model 3 and Y cars plagued with heating issues in dead of winter - Electrek

 

[G. David Felt]

Additional EV News:

Toyota has anounced their new e-TNGA platform that both Subaru and Toyota will use to build EV suv's for global sales. In the coming months the first Toyota Concept focused on Europe and China first will be revealed with America at a later date.

Seems this new platform will be used for EV and fuel cell auto's. The e-TNGA platform will support front, Rear and 4WD versions of EVs depending on market demands.

Charged EVs | Toyota announces new EV platform, revamped version of fuel cell-powered Mirai - Charged EVs

In the World of VW, seems the board has voted to back the CEO's Diess's ambitious electrification plans that will see VW change to a pure EV auto company globally at a record pace. Previously the plan was to stop all ICE auto production by 2030. This board certification of the CEO's plans does not include a stop date for ICE production, but does clearly state that all future ICE R&D will be stopped after the current work in progress and by 2024 all R&D at VW will be EV focused only for VW, Audi and Porsche.

Charged EVs | VW board backs CEO Diess’s ambitious electrification plans - Charged EVs

Final News is the enhancement of heating and cooling for comfort of EV's passengers. As stated in the post about Tesla Heating issues, heating takes considerable power. Engineering specialist IAV has teamed up with Louisenthal a company that makes banknote substrates, security papers and security foils to use their foils in a way to increase the heating of an EV while reducing the energy consumed.

QUOTE:

At the heart of the heating concept is a thin, cost-effective and easy-to-process foil from Louisenthal. The SmartMesh foil has a mesh of conductive tracks on its surface. The foil is integrated into the doors, center console and roof lining. On applying the operating voltage, it warms up and radiates heat into the passenger compartment. The heating foil is transparent, which means it can be combined with ambient lighting or LED design elements. The foils are integrated into the vehicle alongside the standard heating system.

 the total amount of energy required for heating the passenger compartment can be reduced by up to 20 percent as a result of the foil’s radiant heat. This can increase the vehicle’s range by up to 6 percent.

One would think that as the auto industry perfects their heat pumps that both Tesla is now using, Rivian and GM are going to use and word has been circulating that Ford is working on a Heat Pump for the F-150 and will then change the Mustang Mach-E over to a heat pump from the existing heating and cooling setup, we will see continued simplification of the over all power train system and more energy efficiency. 

[balthazar]

59 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla delivered a Record 180,000 Model 3 cars in Q4 just missing their goal of 500,000 auto's delivered for 2020.

Numbers for the number folks.

Check your chart: Model 3 PLUS Model Y were 163K.

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Check your chart: Model 3 PLUS Model Y were 163K.

Thanks, yes 180,000 auto's in Q4 while looking at the Model 3/Y stuff and looking at the heating issues I messed that up, corrected. Thanks for the Catch Balthazar.

[ykX]

I think this pictures shows very clearly state of EVs vs ICE at this point of time.  Hopefully will change in the near future.

[balthazar]

^ And the above is exactly why I continually say that all the OEM mouthpieces, Gov't schlubs and industry analysts are dead wrong to state that EVs will be even 50% of the market by 2030, and all (domestic) "IC ban by 2030" will fall.

[oldshurst442]

A decade is both a short period of time as it is a long period of time.

Technology advancements in a decade's time frame is EONS from now.

A decade ago, 13 years ago to be exact, Apple shook up the world with their iPhone. 

A decade ago,  12 years ago to be exact, Tesla introduced the Roadster.

A decade ago, 11 years ago to be exact, GM went bankrupt.  

A decade ago, 8 years ago to be exact, Tesla shook up the world with their Model S. 

its not Tesla's fault that other OEMS are shuffling their feet with EV technology.

Tesla is a DECADE ahead in EV tech with some OEMs...

In a DECADE from now, when guvment schlubs have mandated that ICEVs are no longer acceptable and banned, imagine where EV tech will be?

GM

VW

TESLA

FoMoCo

Volvo

Toyota

and many many others

are full steam ahead with their BILLIONS of dollars of R&D in ADVANCING EV tech and infrastructure.

In the LAST decade, TESLA would be the ONLY one to  concentrate on EV tech.  And TESLA has really upped that bar to which they are LITTERARLY  a DECADE above everybody else...   

At the turn of the last century, automobile advancement was made fast BECAUSE there were MANY players.  Many failed. But many picked up the pieces where the others failed. 

TESLA...has many backers that WANT the company to succeed.

No different than when GM went bankrupt and the guvment bailed them out.

Tesla also has many detractors. 

Again, no different than from GM when people did NOT want the guvment to bail them out.

Tesla is said to have quality problems and THAT has many haters. Again...no different than for GM during GM's malaise era.

EV haters dont like change.

Well...tree huggin hippies of the '60s HATED gas guzzling muscle cars...

Big Oil got and STILL gets guvment subsidies. The internal combustion empire got all kinds of subsidy help for infrastructure.  Billions of PRIVATE money too.  

Guess what? Same for EVs...

I could go on and on with this...

Point being...guvment schlubs  ALWAYS put their grubby minds and HANDS in ALL we do.  

Dont wear masks/Wear masks

Buckle up

Just say no

War on Terror

Weapons of mass destruction

McCarthyism where everything  is Communist when its not done the American way

55 MPH Speed limits

CAFE

Again...I could go on and on and on...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

Reading elsewhere that the Nio sedan is going to be revealed Jan 9.

And that there was considerable speculation it would compete with the Tesla Model 3 (theoretical MSRP: $38K). Instead, Nio's president has stated it will compete with the BMW 7-series (MSRP: $87K).

And the pattern continues.

[oldshurst442]

Well, it has to take a manufacture to step up to have a business plan that sells EVs to the masses.

I guess THAT business plan is frowned upon just yet.

The Ford Mach-E is not quite in that price range.   But its the right type and size of EV to BE sold to the masses at an affordable price to BE successful in the market place.   

 About the Nio. Its a sedan.  In an SUV/CUV world, even it it were priced at a theoretical price of 38K, I dont think it sell well.  

The Model 3 sells well.   Its a Telsa.   Tesla is God right about now...  Nothing they do could do no wrong in the market place.  Well, the Cybertruck may fail. it has ALL the ugly ingredients that logic states it will fail. But then again. Its Tesla.  Tesla is God right about now. Tesla is shredding all previous rules and creating their own... 

 

[balthazar]

Model 3 is a mild sales success; that's a prime target for a brand to come in as a #2.
Coke/Pepsi, McD/BK, Home Depot / Lowes, Chevy/Ford (traditionally). But... I have no doubt that the numbers show no profit at the $40-50K level... apparently for ANY brand.

Edited January 5, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Actually. The Model 3...as an EV vehicle...is a SMASHING HIT success. 

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/03/10/tesla-passes-1-million-ev-milestone-and-model-3-becomes-all-time-best-seller/#:~:text=Tesla is the first of,the LEAF almost 10 years.

 

Quote

 

March 10th, 2020 by Dr. Maximilian Holland 

---

Elon Musk revealed on Monday that Tesla has just produced its millionth vehicle, a red Tesla Model Y. Tesla is the first of any automaker to hit the million-EV milestone. We can also safely estimate that the Tesla Model 3 has now overtaken the Nissan LEAF in sales, to become the all time best selling EV globally. In just 2½ years of volume production, the Model 3 achieved sales that took the LEAF almost 10 years.

 

 

Tesla...for 2019 and Im assuming for 2020 too

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/17/WS5e49c4c0a310128217277e35.html#:~:text=Tesla topped the world as,international electric vehicles sales database.

 

Quote

 

Tesla topped the world as the best-selling electric vehicle brand in 2019, followed by two Chinese brands BYD and BAIC, according to a report released in February by EV-volumes.com, an international electric vehicles sales database.

Tesla won top spot with sales of 367,820 for last year, followed by the second best, BYD, with 229,506 sold. BAIC ranked third, selling 160,251 electric vehicles in 2019.

 

 

That would make Tesla #1 in their respective marketplace.  Both in year to year sales and as an all-time EV manufacturer.

Yeah...I know...moot point when in comes to profits.

But...as I said before, Tesla has monetary backers that simply wont let Tesla die... 

Just like GM, yet, GM's luster is dulling fast and if the Lyriq fails to entice consumers, and IF sales are worse than Audi's E-Tron....yikes for GM.  And its quite the possibility as even Audi's over all sales IN THE US, are HIGHER than Cadillac's.    (moot point for luxury cars not necessary for being high.  Audi does have VW to fall back on as Cadillac has Chevy/Buick/GMC to do the heavy lifting.   And Lyriq sales NEED to be high enough...I would think HIGHER than the E-Tron JUST BECAUSE its about EV dominance for the new frontier that is EVs)

 

Anyway you slice it...Tesla and their Model 3 and Model S are #1 brands in the EV world WORLDWIDE.

Tesla > everybody else

Model 3 > everybody else

Model S > everybody else

 

We COULD discuss their lack of profits if we wanna diss Tesla, but as a brand...Tesla is unbeatable. 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

Only if you use the ‘EV’ criteria. Which is like claiming ‘best selling turbo sedan’’.
And it’s  still sold at a loss.

[ykX]

I like EVs and as I said previously in 4-5 years might consider getting one as a commuter.  However, I don't see our family having EVs only for a while now.  What bugs me that states like California and now Massachusetts (and I am sure few more will follow) are trying to force complete ban on sale of ICE cars by 2035.  14 years is not that much time to build proper infrastructure and have sufficient selection of EVs at affordable prices.  Tesla Model S came out almost 10 years ago.  Besides getting a little bit more efficient the technology didn't really changed that much in the last 10 years. 

I know there is bunch of reports on new much better battery technology but we haven't seen it in the production cars yet.  At least NJ came out with a little bit more reasonable goal of reducing emissions by 80% by 2050. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by ykX

[riviera74]

When you have an EV the shape of an Equinox at the price of a fully loaded Trax, then EVs (particularly BEVs) will actually succeed in getting paying customers to ditch ICE.  Most BEVs are simply too costly for the average car buyer to consider.  Contrast that with Toyota, whose hybrids are only at most $1500 more than the non-hybrid version.  Much lower prices will bring the BEV revolution to fruition, not expensive Tesla cars.

[Robert Hall]

11 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

When you have an EV the shape of an Equinox at the price of a fully loaded Trax, then EVs (particularly BEVs) will actually succeed in getting paying customers to ditch ICE.   

That wouldn't make sense...maybe instead an Equinox-shaped EV at the price of a fully loaded Equinox?   Why would an BEV be cheaper than the equivalent ICE vehicle?