Chevrolet News:Chevy Increases Bolt Range

[G. David Felt]

9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Don't count on ICE dwindling and dying for at least a decade or more.  Batteries need to be better and scale a lot better for ICE to no longer being king of the hill.

I totally agree with you that ICE will be around for a decade or two.

The point I am trying to make is that EVs when the right package at the right price comes out, people will flock and just as the Equinox is on track to sell almost 400,000 this year, I see no reason as to why an EV should not be profitable at that quality/quantity also. Economy of scale. Production goes up, costs go down.

Tesla is just so inefficient at production cause Musk had to do it his way that he FAILED to take advantage of Economy of Scale based on using what has been working for the last 100 plus years on assembling autos.

[balthazar]

10 years is FAR too short a prediction. 50 is more like it. 17 million count ship takes agonizingly wide turns. EV price disparity is the #1 obstacle.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Going to disagree with you here. 1. it should sell in higher numbers being it's a CUV, but note it would also, unquestionably, be more expensive. Bolt is the #4 selling electric, but a E-Equinox would be $50K. Recall the flutter over the Blazer RS @ $50K. So the sales question is up in the air. As for profit, no one else has managed that, and volume isn't helping that scenario either, so far. 

Bolt's on pace to sell 15,900 this year. Let's say the E-Equinox sells 20,000 @ $47K. Do you realistically expect more volume than that? And if not, is that "selling"??

Current Equinox is on pace to sell 348,000 units this year.

I see your point but you’re speculating on that price. They would only need to sell at 10% of the equinox current sales numbers to be on track to being a more mainstream option as opposed to the niche the Bolt is. Just my opinion though. 

[balthazar]

It's speculation only to a small degree.
Sonic & Bolt are in the same size & configuration class.
Sonic is $16K, Bolt is 36K.

Equinox starts at $24K. What's your MSRP guess on a electric version of an Equinox?

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's speculation only to a small degree.
Sonic & Bolt are in the same size & configuration class.
Sonic is $16K, Bolt is 36K.

Equinox starts at $24K. What's your MSRP guess on a electric version of an Equinox?

Except Bolt and Sonic do not share one thing so that’s not really an apples to oranges comparison. 

 

Honestly if they could keep it at $40-42K, there would be a fair number of takers for it. Hell, a top of the line Equinox pushes and than some in certain configurations. For the record I’ve seen Bolts prices at $45K and if they can get the Nox to that price, it’s certainly a better option than the smaller and quirkier looking Bolt. 

[balthazar]

It's not about them sharing anything. 
It's about bringing a small 4-dr hatch to market in the same 'entry-level' size class. Similar consumer preference as to product size/function, and similar material costs… only major difference as far as the investment is in the power train. In other words, is there anything BESIDES the power train in your opinion that makes the Bolt 'worthy' of a $36K tag?

IMO; no. That cost differential is ALL in the power train costs.



Hence, the Sonic comparison. The track record on EVs dictates that an BEV Equinox would be expected to be approx. $50K. 

Want to watch BEVs explode in volume? Take a $24K Equinox and offer up a $28K BEV version with the Bolt's range. When that's actually going to happen in anyone's guess.

Edited August 28, 2019 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I see your point but you’re speculating on that price. They would only need to sell at 10% of the equinox current sales numbers to be on track to being a more mainstream option as opposed to the niche the Bolt is. Just my opinion though. 

Yup.  Nothing "empirical", which seems to be required in my posts on the subject.  Nothing but hot air.

[balthazar]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

They would only need to sell at 10% of the equinox current sales numbers to be on track to being a more mainstream option as opposed to the niche the Bolt is.

Bolt is selling at 63% of the combined volume of the Sonic + the Spark.

[ccap41]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Except Bolt and Sonic do not share one thing so that’s not really an apples to oranges comparison. 

A theoretical Equinox-size EV wouldn't share anything either. It would have to be a ground up design to be worth anything and not just attempt to shimmy batteries and electric motors under the skin. 

As far as I know, we were just talking Equinox size and not actually an Equinox EV. 

[balthazar]

^ That's what I was implying; a BEV CUV in the same size class as an Equinox.

[Robert Hall]

Compact and midsize mainstream BEV CUVs could go a ways towards mainstreaming BEVs.   A subcompact like the Bolt is limited in appeal. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

Kia Niro EV, if it had the Bolt's range. 

[ccap41]

32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ That's what I was implying; a BEV CUV in the same size class as an Equinox.

Yeah, I assumed that is what you were insinuating. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Compact and midsize mainstream BEV CUVs could go a ways towards mainstreaming BEVs.   A subcompact like the Bolt is limited in appeal. 

Everything is ‘limited’ in appeal. Bolt is selling really well for an electric, and still pretty well vs. other Chevy compact hatches.

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

It's not about them sharing anything. 
It's about bringing a small 4-dr hatch to market in the same 'entry-level' size class. Similar consumer preference as to product size/function, and similar material costs… only major difference as far as the investment is in the power train. In other words, is there anything BESIDES the power train in your opinion that makes the Bolt 'worthy' of a $36K tag?

IMO; no. That cost differential is ALL in the power train costs.



Hence, the Sonic comparison. The track record on EVs dictates that an BEV Equinox would be expected to be approx. $50K. 

Want to watch BEVs explode in volume? Take a $24K Equinox and offer up a $28K BEV version with the Bolt's range. When that's actually going to happen in anyone's guess.

Not going to happen not does it need. Most people would buy it even if it were at $40K (which I have already pointed out with the fact that there are equinoxes already selling for that kind of money) simply because it’s a reasonably sized CUV. 

 

We will just have to agree to disagree about that Sonic comparison. 

12 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Yup.  Nothing "empirical", which seems to be required in my posts on the subject.  Nothing but hot air.

And I pointed it out as such while you literally offer not a damn thing because well “EVs suck”. One day you’ll show us on a doll where the EV boogeyman touched you. 

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

A theoretical Equinox-size EV wouldn't share anything either. It would have to be a ground up design to be worth anything and not just attempt to shimmy batteries and electric motors under the skin. 

As far as I know, we were just talking Equinox size and not actually an Equinox EV. 

Never said otherwise as I also figured it was implied. 

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Bolt is selling at 63% of the combined volume of the Sonic + the Spark.

And the Sonic is going bye bye so...

 

We are talking about two different sets of numbers too. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Never said otherwise as I also figured it was implied. 

Then I'm confused why you mentioned the Sonic and Bolt not sharing anything as if the Equinox and Equinox EV would share things if we all agree it would be on its own dedicated EV platform. 

[surreal1272]

10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Then I'm confused why you mentioned the Sonic and Bolt not sharing anything as if the Equinox and Equinox EV would share things if we all agree it would be on its own dedicated EV platform. 

Don’t know why you’re confused. Balthazaar brought up the Sonic as a comparison in price to the Bolt which I think was not applicable as they are two completely different platforms, one obviously using more development dollars than the other. 

[ocnblu]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

offer not a damn thing because well “EVs suck”

Everybody knows what an EV's limitations are.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Everybody knows what an EV's limitations are.

We know the limitations (and the history) of the ICE as well. Maybe we should just sidestep that little fact (or should I say “facts”?) to save your delicate sensibilities. Every year in the last ten years has shown progress on just about every front where EVs are concerned (from increased range, faster charges, to increased infrastructure). These are all facts that have addressed these “limitations”. Is it all the way there yet? No but again, the progress doesn’t lie. Only you. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

progress doesn’t lie. Only you. 

link please.

[surreal1272]

20 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

link please.

Really? That’s your response? There’s numerous articles on this very website starting with this very article. The Bolt is gaining 21 miles per charge. That’s progress albeit small progress. That’s just one of several examples available without ever leaving this very website. 

 

Good grief car salesman. If you’re going to troll, at least make it a challenge. 

 

Now about your lying, well that is all over this website as well. Turns out it’s not so “random” and about as obvious as your insecurities about anything you don’t happen to agree with. 

 

“Surreal, don't think I don't remember when you dug in your heels insisting the Bolt IS NOT a CUV... now you say it is.“

 

That was a lie.

 

Maybe that thought was a little too random for you. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Don’t know why you’re confused. Balthazaar brought up the Sonic as a comparison in price to the Bolt which I think was not applicable as they are two completely different platforms, one obviously using more development dollars than the other. 

Because your reply to Balthy implied that while there is a huge price gap between the ICE Sonic and EV Bolt because they are not sharing anything that the ICE Equinox and theoretical Equinox-sized EV would share things. 

I must be missing something because his comparison seemed straight forward and not apples and oranges.

Sonic -> Bolt - 20k price gap

Equinox -> EV Equinox-sized vehicle - theoretical 20k price gap

13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

We know the limitations (and the history) of the ICE as well.

Do we? They're still making advances in the internal combustion engine.I don't think they've maxed them out at all yet. They're just cracking into the variable compression engines and GM has brand new fancy technology in both the 2.7T and new 5.3. 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Because your reply to Balthy implied that while there is a huge price gap between the ICE Sonic and EV Bolt because they are not sharing anything that the ICE Equinox and theoretical Equinox-sized EV would share things. 

I must be missing something because his comparison seemed straight forward and not apples and oranges.

Sonic -> Bolt - 20k price gap

Equinox -> EV Equinox-sized vehicle - theoretical 20k price gap

Do we? They're still making advances in the internal combustion engine.I don't think they've maxed them out at all yet. They're just cracking into the variable compression engines and GM has brand new fancy technology in both the 2.7T and new 5.3. 

I read about HCCI in Car and Driver over a decade ago.  Then I read much more recently that Mazda's SkyActiv engines are all HCCI.  So will GM actually DO HCCI or simply switch to full BEV by 2025?

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, riviera74 said:

I read about HCCI in Car and Driver over a decade ago.  Then I read much more recently that Mazda's SkyActiv engines are all HCCI.  So will GM actually DO HCCI or simply switch to full BEV by 2025?

Only the Skyactive-X engines are HCCI. 

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I read about HCCI in Car and Driver over a decade ago.  Then I read much more recently that Mazda's SkyActiv engines are all HCCI.  So will GM actually DO HCCI or simply switch to full BEV by 2025?

I am thinking the next Bolt Platform gen 2.0 more than making the existing engines HCCI.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Because your reply to Balthy implied that while there is a huge price gap between the ICE Sonic and EV Bolt because they are not sharing anything that the ICE Equinox and theoretical Equinox-sized EV would share things. 

I must be missing something because his comparison seemed straight forward and not apples and oranges.

Sonic -> Bolt - 20k price gap

Equinox -> EV Equinox-sized vehicle - theoretical 20k price gap

Do we? They're still making advances in the internal combustion engine.I don't think they've maxed them out at all yet. They're just cracking into the variable compression engines and GM has brand new fancy technology in both the 2.7T and new 5.3. 

Yet there are limitations to even those. The ICE has been out for well over a century yet those gains have been very gradual and there have been limitations. Examples? All the motors not being made anymore because they hit certain limitations like the Triton 5.4L. It was never going to hit certain MPGs targets as well as higher horsepower targets. That’s just one example of limitations. For the record, I never said there hasn’t been progress made with ICE but the resident EV hater seems to think that the limitations of EVs are damning enough to dismiss them entirely while ignoring the obvious progress they have made. 

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Yet there are limitations to even those. The ICE has been out for well over a century yet those gains have been very gradual and there have been limitations. Examples? All the motors not being made anymore because they hit certain limitations like the Triton 5.4L. It was never going to hit certain MPGs targets as well as higher horsepower targets. That’s just one example of limitations. For the record, I never said there hasn’t been progress made with ICE but the resident EV hater seems to think that the limitations of EVs are damning enough to dismiss them entirely while ignoring the obvious progress they have made. 

There are limitations on literally everything. EVs, Gasoline, diesel, hydrogen... Of course each individual engine has its limits and that is why new engines come out every year with new/additional technology, like the examples I listed. 

I don't think we are at the engineering limits of gasoline engines yet.

[G. David Felt]

12 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There are limitations on literally everything. EVs, Gasoline, diesel, hydrogen... Of course each individual engine has its limits and that is why new engines come out every year with new/additional technology, like the examples I listed. 

I don't think we are at the engineering limits of gasoline engines yet.

I would agree that we are NOT at the engineering limits of ICE auto's. Yet with that said, for the sake of our planet, future health of kids, family, loved ones, etc. it is in our best interest to push forward with better tech and obsolete older tech if possible sooner rather than later.

[ccap41]

8 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I would agree that we are NOT at the engineering limits of ICE auto's. Yet with that said, for the sake of our planet, future health of kids, family, loved ones, etc. it is in our best interest to push forward with better tech and obsolete older tech if possible sooner rather than later.

I always think it is a great idea to continue to innovate and create new forms of propulsion, even if they don't work out. The need to continue to push limits is where there are groundbreaking breakthroughs.