Cadillac News: Cadillac Teases Further Performance Upgrades for V-series

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I don’t care so much about the horsepower on these hyper track cars, the lap times depend on weight, brakes and suspension because all these cars have 800-1000 hp.  The AMG One is like 2,800 lbs with F1 suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, etc.  It is way faster than a LaFerrari or a SPF90 or whatever the new one is, I think it named after sunblock.  

AMG One is Hyperware as no production and no real specifications at this point, just concepts which MB/AMG are good at showing but not delivering. Let's hold off on comparisons to mythical auto's till they actually are in real production form.

[balthazar]

How do we even know if the amg1 is going to make it? I know daimler has said so, but they've showed dozens of concepts they've never built, plus they're cutting models & budgets right now. An amg1 would be by far the biggest waste of funds they have and is likely to be the very first program cut.

[Robert Hall]

I assume it will get built, probably all 275 have been bought and paid for already.  Since it is so low volume not a risk to build.  

[ccap41]

I definitely see it getting built but it isn't quite yet so quit spitting numbers out about it. 

[G. David Felt]

40 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I assume it will get built, probably all 275 have been bought and paid for already.  Since it is so low volume not a risk to build.  

Thank you Robert for reminding us that they did presale all 275, so it is NOT a question of If it will get built but WHEN it will get built and then we will see real official numbers.

My gut tells me that all the delays in the AMG1 is due to not hitting their original selling numbers on HP / Performance / Etc.

[Robert Hall]

There may be technical reasons for delays also, IIRC the F1-based (inspired?) powertrain was having trouble meeting European emissions regs, IIRC..

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, dfelt said:

My gut tells me that all the delays in the AMG1 is due to not hitting their original selling numbers on HP / Performance / Etc.

Emissions.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a23785672/mercedes-amg-project-one-delay-news/

"When asked if the customers were angry with such a delay, Moers said he's very open to communicating with them.

"You know what they tell me? 'Make sure that the car works. Because of what we experienced in the past with hybrid cars, take your time.'""

[G. David Felt]

 

Seems VW averaged 128.6 mph in setting this new record. Makes ya wanna go Hmmmmm about ICE powered auto's. Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO set a lap time of 5 minutes 19.546 seconds that has remained pretty much untouchable since 2018.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, dfelt said:

AMG One is Hyperware as no production and no real specifications at this point, just concepts which MB/AMG are good at showing but not delivering. Let's hold off on comparisons to mythical auto's till they actually are in real production form.

Moers said they are close to production, so that could happen this year.  The last hurdle is clearing emissions as ccap points out.  We know the powertrain works, it is undefeated in Formula 1 this year and has won 5 consecutive championships. 

That VW EV that did the Nurburgring isn't a road legal car, and it was also turned just for the Nurburgring, 

Edited June 3, 2019 by smk4565

[dwightlooi]

These WEAK SAUCE CT5-V and CT4-V cars are a disgrace. They should have at least been kept with the VSport (Red slash \V) badging.

The CT4-V’s 320hp engine is a mere ECU tune of the 310 hp Silverado Pickup Truck engine and a pretty mild one at that. The CT5-V’s 355 hp engine is, again, a mere ECU tune of the 335hp 3.0T V6 in the “regular” CT5. Both engines are significantly less powerful than the existing 404hp 3.0T V6 in the CT6 Premium and Platinum models, not to mention the 420hp 3.6T V6 in the CTS VSport or the 464hp 3.6T V6 in the ATS-V. With these what GM is saying is that Cadillac is not a performance brand and anyone interested in a performance product should look at a 455hp Camaro SS starting at $37K ($13K less) or get a BMW.

The engine the GM should have built – with minimum cost and development really – is a 2.7T Inline Four re-equipped with a larger turbo and air-to-water intercooler. Based on the compressor map, stepping up to a modest turbo like the Honeywell G25-550 and the 2.7T “Silverado Special” will make 420 hp @ 5,300 rpm with 420 lb-ft @ 2,200~5,200 rpm without breaking a sweat and keeping compression at or near 10:1. If they are willing to put up with a little lag and push the torque plateau rightwards, a Honeywell G25-660 and forged internals will easily make 512 hp @ 6,000 rpm with 460 lb-ft @ 2,800~5,800 rpm. These engines would be perfect for the CT4-V and CT5-V respectively – nevermind the 4-cylinders or the truck pedigree. It’ll also give GM the bragging rights to the most powerful “production” four cylinder engines in the world – snubbing Mercedes AMG or it’s displacement challenged M133 2.0T mills.

Alas, as a 2014 CTS VSport owner, I must say that I will not even consider any of these cars. Sadly, I may have to add to the US Trade Deficit and buy German in a year or two.

Edited June 3, 2019 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't understand why they couldn't even do the 400/400 of the CT6 engine. 

[Robert Hall]

I wonder if they dropped that idea of badging with torque or power, don't see those badges in pics of these Vs.

[G. David Felt]

Performance for DUMMIES.

That is what I think this change is at Cadillac, my gut tells me this is the last of Johan's changes he was doing. Rather than a V-Sport and V edition auto's. Johan was so in love with his German brands that he wanted a V edition that would then go by numbers.

CT4 V = 320hp / 369 lb-ft of torque OR CT4 V = 239 kW / 500 Nm

CT5 V = 355hp / 400 lb-ft of torque OR CT5 V = 265 kW / 542 Nm

So then would Johan have a CT4 V 500 and CT5 V 542?

If CT4 V had a 450/450 TTV8 would it then be a CT4 V 610?

If CT5 V had a 640/630 6.2L V8 would it then be a CT5 V 854?

I get the idea of simplifying the name with a number that represents a bigger engine. Yet I question if the public is able to adjust to these new numbers and properly understand it or not. ?

Wonder if we could have a super CT5 V with the 755/715 V8 Supercharged from the Corvette in the car, that would give us a CT5 V 969! ?

8 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder if they dropped that idea of badging with torque or power, don't see those badges in pics of these Vs.

Could be covered or purposely left off to not give away the actual HP / lb-ft of the cars.

I myself think it would not be bad to have a V series of cars that go by Torque / Newton meters.

[Drew Dowdell]

46 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Performance for DUMMIES.

That is what I think this change is at Cadillac, my gut tells me this is the last of Johan's changes he was doing. Rather than a V-Sport and V edition auto's. Johan was so in love with his German brands that he wanted a V edition that would then go by numbers.

CT4 V = 320hp / 369 lb-ft of torque OR CT4 V = 239 kW / 500 Nm

CT5 V = 355hp / 400 lb-ft of torque OR CT5 V = 265 kW / 542 Nm

So then would Johan have a CT4 V 500 and CT5 V 542?

If CT4 V had a 450/450 TTV8 would it then be a CT4 V 610?

If CT5 V had a 640/630 6.2L V8 would it then be a CT5 V 854?

I get the idea of simplifying the name with a number that represents a bigger engine. Yet I question if the public is able to adjust to these new numbers and properly understand it or not. ?

Wonder if we could have a super CT5 V with the 755/715 V8 Supercharged from the Corvette in the car, that would give us a CT5 V 969! ?

Could be covered or purposely left off to not give away the actual HP / lb-ft of the cars.

I myself think it would not be bad to have a V series of cars that go by Torque / Newton meters.

They round to nearest 50.... so the CT5-V would be a 550. 

[G. David Felt]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They round to nearest 50.... so the CT5-V would be a 550. 

Yet while it would be cool to have a CT5 V 1000, maybe cause it reminds me of Porsche which I love to beat, that a CT5 V 969 sounds and reads very cool!  

[Robert Hall]

57 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

Could be covered or purposely left off to not give away the actual HP / lb-ft of the cars.

I myself think it would not be bad to have a V series of cars that go by Torque / Newton meters.

The V series are the only ones where torque or horsepower counts, though.  No one buying a non-V series Cadillac cares about the horsepower or torque (or probably is even aware of the numbers). 

[G. David Felt]

30 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The V series are the only ones where torque or horsepower counts, though.  No one buying a non-V series Cadillac cares about the horsepower or torque (or probably is even aware of the numbers). 

Right, that is why I can see Cadillac doing the V series as a CT5 V 500, CT5 V 750, CT5 V 1000

The V buyer much like a M or AMG buyer knows the higher the number the higher the performance.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just remembered... they're not going to use the NM numbers on the V models.

 

[G. David Felt]

54 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I just remembered... they're not going to use the NM numbers on the V models.

 

OK, Then I wonder what the new names will be since they seem to have dropped V-Sport which is what these V editions should be. ?

Or are they saying these are the base V engines so then we will have two more levels above, V-Sport and V-Platinum? ?‍♂️

[Robert Hall]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

OK, Then I wonder what the new names will be since they seem to have dropped V-Sport which is what these V editions should be. ?

Or are they saying these are the base V engines so then we will have two more levels above, V-Sport and V-Platinum? ?‍♂️

Maybe they will add an extra letter....like VR or VS.   Or V+ or V++.   Or V-extreme.   

[Drew Dowdell]

14 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Maybe they will add an extra letter....like VR or VS.   Or V+ or V++.   Or V-extreme.   

V-Track ?

[dwightlooi]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:09 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't understand why they couldn't even do the 400/400 of the CT6 engine. 

Because they do not want to keep both the old 3.0T (LGW) [404hp/400lb-ft] and the new 3.0T [335hp/400lb-ft] in production?

The new GM powertrain philosophy seems to be as much torque as possible, as soon as possible. Everything else doesn't matter. The new "Tripower" 2.0T (LSY) is a perfect illustration. The engine makes 258 lb-ft @ 1,500~4,000 rpm and 237 hp @ 5,000 rpm. This makes for a wheezy engine which spends the 3,000 rpm of the rev range running out of breathe.

While 258 lb-ft @ 1,500 rpm may seem like a plus, one has to understand that it is actually a very minimal gain in response. The "old" 2.0T (LTG) engine reaches 260 lb-ft @ 1,700 rpm anyway on the way to 295 lb-ft @ 3,000~4,600 rpm. By not overly undersizing the turbo the LTG is able to breathe properly up to 5,500 rpm and deliver 272 hp @ 5,500 rpm at which point torque is back the 260 lb-ft.

The "new" 2.0T (LSY) gives up the upper 1,500 rpm range of the torque plateau and fades above 4,000 rpm. In exchange, it gains the ability to hit 260 lb-ft about 200 rpm sooner.

This is 100% a turbo sizing matter. It is completely independent of the 3-stage cam switching valve train or the addition of features like cylinder deactivation or Start/Stop. And, it sounds like s $h!ty deal to me.