Cadillac News: Cadillac Teases Further Performance Upgrades for V-series

[Drew Dowdell]

After disappointing fans with a less than awe-inspiring release of the CT4-V and CT5-V on Thursday, Cadillac took the cars to Belle Isle, in Detroit, Michigan on Saturday.  General Motors President Mark Reuss and GM Vice President Global Product Ken Morris drove prototypes of the next step up in V-Series Performance at the Detroit Grand Prix. The two sedans appear to be uprated, higher performance versions of the cars shown on Thursday, more in line to be direct replacements for the ATS-V and CTS-V they succeed. 

Much of the disappointment surrounding the two cars comes from the relatively tepid power outputs. The CT4-V comes with a 320 horsepower turbo-charged 4-cylinder and the CT5-V comes with a 355 horsepower twin-turbo V6, a mere 20 horsepower increase over the non-V CT5 V6 and less than the 400 horsepower available in the 2019 Cadillac CT6 Platinum, and a far cry from the 460 horsepower ATS-V and 620 horsepower CTS-V.  Cadillac is aiming to make the V-series more accessible to customers, however, we feel that they could have achieved this same goal by calling the revealed cars V-Sport instead of V-series.

As of yet, we can only speculate what Cadillac is planning for the upgraded V-series cars, but hopefully, the twin-turbo V8 Blackwing will make it into at least one of them.  

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[ocnblu]

Cadillac V-Series:  Feeling cute, might come back and tear you a new ass later, IDK

[smk4565]

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

[Drew Dowdell]

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

It is unofficial, but apparently the blackwing is in the CT5 in the article picture.  It's less power than the old CTS-V, but at least it's not a "truck engine" right?

[surreal1272]

44 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

Everyone is building more crossovers because that’s what people are buying. 

 

Also, if building a mid-engine Vette is “GM playing it safe”, then I guess that’s a good thing. I also see that they are not “playing it safe” here. They clearly have plans for Cadillac performance models that go beyond this new V series designation. That’s just more speculation without proof from you. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

58 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It is unofficial, but apparently the blackwing is in the CT5 in the article picture.  It's less power than the old CTS-V, but at least it's not a "truck engine" right?

CT4-V and CT5-V should be the blackwing V8.  The "V" cars they introduced the other day should be V-sport or the sport trim engine, although I hate the term "sport" as a trim level (at least when written on a car), that is something you see on a Camry or a Crossover, you don't see a Mustang Sport or a 911 Sport because people know it is a sports car, they don't have to advertise it.  

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Everyone is building more crossovers because that’s what people are buying. 

 

Also, if building a mid-engine Vette is “GM playing it safe”, then I guess that’s a good thing. I also see that they are not “playing it safe” here. They clearly have plans for Cadillac performance models that go beyond this new V series designation. That’s just more speculation without proof from you. 

We shall see, but I have said for over a decade that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s.   Then give Cadillac a $100k + sports car that is above the Vette, give them 2 if you want, but the ultimate GM performance car should be at Cadillac.

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

 

I also think Performance crossovers will be on the rise because crossovers are what people want, but people will still want horsepower and performance.  That is where the market will go, millennials won't buy sports coupes when they get older and have the disposable income, they'll buy stuff like a Macan or Cayenne because want a sports car, but  they need "active lifestyle" crossovers to never haul crap they don't have or need a 3rd row seat for that 1 time a year they have to take their 1 kid's friends to Cheek - E- Cheese for a birthday party.

Edited June 2, 2019 by smk4565

[oldshurst442]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mustang Sport or a 911 Sport because people know it is a sports car, they don't have to advertise it.  

You  see it on a Camaro .   Super Sport.  Rallye Sport.

Rallye Sport?

Vat is dis Rallye Sport you speak of?  

Ah yes...from 1973 to 2019.  Well..Racing Sport in THIS case...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.

Nope. That is NOT what Cadillac is all about. I guess Cadillac could have a super sport car above the Corvette...

but before they do that...

they need this

 

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s. 

Where did you ever get this zany idea that Corvettes are attainable?

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS  expensive...

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS about being the fastest machines they could be...

Top of the line Vettes have always been about state of the art engineering...

Stop with this BS you keep on ragging about Corvette, man! 

You KNOW its not true what you say...so why you say it?

[oldshurst442]

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

Again...who says that Cadillac cannot be both?

Mercedes is doing that exactly...

Problem for Cadillac is that when they should have had an Evoq  in their line-up, they fudged it up big time with the ELR.  They then could have had the Cien in their line-up eventually had they NOT fudged up the ELR.  They could had done the Ciel at the same time as the ELR, and if they'd done the Ciel right, then the El Miraj would have been with us too.  But chances are they'd flub the Ciel as well...

But now...that ship has sailed. The BMW wannabe  aspirations have long since passed with folk buying cars.

As of NOW...people want old skool Cadillacs. Proof?  The Escalade just keeps on steam rolling the competition....

But...if Cadillac embraces their past and they do old skool the right way...then who says Cadillac cant do sports cars?

Listen...you do have an honest opinion about why Cadillac flubs it, but you also go overboard with it...

Tone it done...stop being so hypocritical...

Edited June 2, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nope. That is NOT what Cadillac is all about. I guess Cadillac could have a super sport car above the Corvette...

but before they do that...

they need this

 

Where did you ever get this zany idea that Corvettes are attainable?

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS  expensive...

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS about being the fastest machines they could be...

Top of the line Vettes have always been about state of the art engineering...

Stop with this BS you keep on ragging about Corvette, man! 

You KNOW its not true what you say...so why you say it?

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

I suggest you learn your automotive history...

 

 

[smk4565]

Mercedes isn’t doing what Lincoln, Rolls do or what 90s Lexus did in being all about comfort.  They have always been about engineering, safety, technology and they mostly built Autobahn cruisers.  Buying AMG 20 or so years ago and now having the best racing team in the world has let them make performance cars in addition to the same car they always had.

Cadillac doesn’t have a brand identity.  They have a 5800 lb truck as the symbol of their brand then make a compact rear dive sedan and claim every gram of weight matters and weight savings was #1 goal, huh???   Why aren’t their sedans roomy and comfortable with a lot of torque like an Escalade is?  This strategy of cloning a 3-series and cloning a Lexus RX hasn’t worked because it leads to no focus, no brand mission.

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I suggest you learn your automotive history...

 

 

Which Corvette was priced even money with a Ferrari or Lamborghini? 

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?

OMG- this has been a constant trumpet solo with you- "just build a really high priced version, there are people with money that'll buy it!"

When it's an hi-zoot package on a german car, it's all fuzzy baby peaches & sunshine. When a similar hi-zoot package is presented for a Cadillac, it's always 'sales sales sales', (meanwhile no body buys the german hi-zoot pack).

Edited June 2, 2019 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

We shall see, but I have said for over a decade that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s.   Then give Cadillac a $100k + sports car that is above the Vette, give them 2 if you want, but the ultimate GM performance car should be at Cadillac.

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

 

I also think Performance crossovers will be on the rise because crossovers are what people want, but people will still want horsepower and performance.  That is where the market will go, millennials won't buy sports coupes when they get older and have the disposable income, they'll buy stuff like a Macan or Cayenne because want a sports car, but  they need "active lifestyle" crossovers to never haul crap they don't have or need a 3rd row seat for that 1 time a year they have to take their 1 kid's friends to Cheek - E- Cheese for a birthday party.

“Should be, could be”. Only you are so concerned about it. Clearly GM isn’t and it hasn’t been a problem. You’d just find a way to slam a $100K Cadillac sportscar anyway. 

[oldshurst442]

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which Corvette was priced even money with a Ferrari or Lamborghini? 

Corvettes were sold before there even was  Lambos for sale...two decades before, almost...

Corvettes, the high end Corvettes, were always priced as high as Cadillacs...

Cadillacs, were always the highest priced vehicles on the road...of the mass produced variety...and not hand made...like Rolls Royces...and not limited produced...like I said...mass produced...up until the early 1970s...

Yeah...I know...you said exotics.  But that is what Rolls and Ferraris and Lambos are...

A Corvette was never an exotic....its DOMESTIC...

It dont matter, this was at a time when Ferraris sold 50 cars a year...or so...

Corvettes were always about being mass produced. Corvettes sold by the thousands...

Corvettes were never about exclusivity.  THAT is what makes an exotic car, an exotic car.  And it being a foreign car...you know...not American Domestic Market...

But...Corvettes were just about as expensive as expensive could be for a DOMESTIC product...

Corvettes were American exotics as like if a European or Middle Eastern buyer wanted to buy a Corvette, he would most definitely pay like he was buying a Ferrari to have his Corvette in his European or Middle Eastern country back in the day...

Like I said...learn your automotive history and stop trying to weasel your nonsense with me...

Edited June 2, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes isn’t doing what Lincoln, Rolls do or what 90s Lexus did in being all about comfort.  They have always been about engineering, safety, technology and they mostly built Autobahn cruisers.  Buying AMG 20 or so years ago and now having the best racing team in the world has let them make performance cars in addition to the same car they always had.

Cadillac doesn’t have a brand identity.  They have a 5800 lb truck as the symbol of their brand then make a compact rear dive sedan and claim every gram of weight matters and weight savings was #1 goal, huh???   Why aren’t their sedans roomy and comfortable with a lot of torque like an Escalade is?  This strategy of cloning a 3-series and cloning a Lexus RX hasn’t worked because it leads to no focus, no brand mission.

So basically you’re saying only Mercedes can be all things to all people because that’s pretty much what you’re saying here and perfectly illustrates the fallacy in debating with a one brand fan. No matter what, you give excuses to Mercedes that are not allowed for others. 

[balthazar]

NAH - mercedes can't decide what their mission / definition is. They're arguably the most lost : super high end lux vehicles that sell in a trickle, mass mainstream production of FWD shitboxes, and unbearably utilitarian cargo boxes / a rebadged pickup truck, none of which are separated by badging, or dealerships or advertising. Yeah- they make money, but so did the Pet Rock.

Edited June 2, 2019 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

I just love how you expect a Vette to basically stay the same price while literally everything else has gone up. There were Mercedes models that were “cheap” back then that aren’t now. Where’s their criticism? Oh that’s right. 

 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. It should be considered shameful that the Vette shames much more expensive sport cars from Germany in terms of performance but we will just ignore that so that you can criticize something else about GM. 

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

OMG- this has been a constant trumpet solo with you- "just build a really high priced version, there are people with money that'll buy it!"

When it's an hi-zoot package on a german car, it's all fuzzy baby peaches & sunshine. When a similar hi-zoot package is presented for a Cadillac, it's always 'sales sales sales', (meanwhile no body buys the german hi-zoot pack).

I think they should build a Cadillac sports car above Corvette even if it doesn’t sell just for brand image.  I would build it if I were in charge at GM but I am not.  

My point isn’t hat statement was more about how many V8 CT5’s would they sell in today’s market where sedans aren’t selling.  I also said the CT5-V should have the blackwing V8.  But they might sell 500-1000 Blackwing CT5 per year, and I think GM just doesn’t care about selling that little of volume when they can put money behind the crossover of the month and sell 100,000 of those per year.

Which is why Cadillac needs rear drive crossovers because a Blackwing V8 SUV would out sell a Blackwing V8 sedan.

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I just love how you expect a Vette to basically stay the same price while literally everything else has gone up. There were Mercedes models that were “cheap” back then that aren’t now. Where’s their criticism? Oh that’s right. 

 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. It should be considered shameful that the Vette shames much more expensive sport cars from Germany in terms of performance but we will just ignore that so that you can criticize something else about GM. 

I don’t think the Corvette should stay at the same price I think it should stay in the same place in the market.  Much like the Miata or Mustang since they came out have been in the same place in the market.  Prices obviously rice over time.  What I don’t think they should do is move the Corvette up market into the $100k plus range into Audi R8 or Aston Martin pricing because the Chevrolet dealership experience isn’t going to be the Audi or Ferrari or Aston Martin experience.  And it would go against the Corvette’s mission.

Cadillac exists for a reason, expensive cars should go there.  

[balthazar]

Mustang has repeatedly been WAAAY above its original Price tier.

[Robert Hall]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. 

That's the C7, though...will be interesting to see the starting price point for the C8...

[smk4565]

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Mustang has repeatedly been WAAAY above its original Price tier.

Well these new Shelby Mustangs are too high like in price,  the 4 cylinder ones and even the 5.0’s that are $40k are in line with where Mustang should be.  Trying to sell Mustangs for Corvette or 911 money is stupid, at that point make a Shelby sports car that competes with the Nissan GT-R and that crowd.

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don’t think the Corvette should stay at the same price I think it should stay in the same place in the market.  Much like the Miata or Mustang since they came out have been in the same place in the market.  Prices obviously rice over time.  What I don’t think they should do is move the Corvette up market into the $100k plus range into Audi R8 or Aston Martin pricing because the Chevrolet dealership experience isn’t going to be the Audi or Ferrari or Aston Martin experience.  And it would go against the Corvette’s mission.

Cadillac exists for a reason, expensive cars should go there.  

And that’s your problem. You think it should stay in this imaginary marketplace that never existed for it in the first place. You obviously don’t know what the Vettes mission is. And if Cadillac exists for more expensive models, what is Mercedes excuse for $30K FWD compact cars and Metris vansin an otherwise Uber luxury brand that share the same lots as their $300K+ models?

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

That's the C7, though...will be interesting to see the starting price point for the C8...

I know but since the C8 isn’t out yet, I’m going with known numbers. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

Logically, the C8 will have a slightly higher base price than the C7 because every new generation Corvette always bumped up the base price.  

Another slight bump up would be because this C8 will be a departure from the norm. 

But on the flip side, GM/Chevrolet has been doing this since 1953. 

The Corvette has a built-in customer base since 1953 that expect a car in that familiar base price range. GM/Chevrolet will not deviate from that drastically. GM/Chevrolet big wigs have publicly said so that the C8 will NOT increase in price drastically as to not alienate their base price, meat and potatoes, customer base.

The higher end ZR1 equivalent C8 will probably be at the highest level  pricing of any Corvette to date. THIS is the Corvette probably to push not only performance levels to new heights, but price levels too. 

And THAT is OK...because EVERY Corvette since Corvettes started PUSHING the performance levels higher and higher ALSO had their price tags go higher and higher too... 

So I dont really get the phobia of the C8 being expensive.

Base Corvettes were more or less "affordable".  Higher end Pontiac and Oldsmobile levels of affordability. 

But the high end Corvettes were always out of reach for the MAJORITY of the American people at prices that were in the high end luxury vehicle prices such as Cadillacs and Lincolns back when Cadillacs and Lincolns WERE the ONLY luxury vehicles consdidered by the filthy rich...  Rolls Royces were simply niche....MOST 1%ers of the time didnt even bother with Rolls Royces.  Only the oldest of the old money, the stuffiest of the stuffiest bought Rolls Royces. And even then, these people  had their Rolls Royces, but they also had their Cadillac or Lincolns too. Because, even though Rolls Royces WERE Rolls Royces, NOTHING said that you had money and made it in life more than a Cadillac. More to it than that, nothing put an exclamation mark more than arriving at a destination than arriving in a Cadillac.

With that being said...after 66-67 years of Corvettes...the pricing formula has NEVER changed, and for the C8, GM and Chevrolet big wigs have confirmed that NOTHING will change in that regard either...

 

This every man's sports car that is a Corvette is NOT only defined by its more or less affordable base price...but MAINLY because the Corvette sells BY THE THOUSANDS...

THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY the Corvette is considered as the every day man's sports car.

The pre-owned used Corvette that is  5-6-7-8-9-10 years old...

Those Corvettes are DIRT CHEAP to buy as there are LITERATELY THOUSANDS of them to choose from. In alll kinds of conditions in all kinds of colours and options...

 

And BECAUSE the AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE support and  community is SOOOOO HUGE for the Corvette, a Corvette that is LITERATELY  20 years old, it could EASILY KEEP UP with performance with EXOTICS that cost 3-4-5 times MORE and that are BRAND NEW!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And that’s your problem. You think it should stay in this imaginary marketplace that never existed for it in the first place. You obviously don’t know what the Vettes mission is. And if Cadillac exists for more expensive models, what is Mercedes excuse for $30K FWD compact cars and Metris vansin an otherwise Uber luxury brand that share the same lots as their $300K+ models?

First off the Corvette in the 60s was a $4,000 car which is like a $32k car now, in the 70s Corvettes were around $6,000 which is about $30k in today's money.  A 1974 Cadillac Eldorado was double the price of a 1974 Corvette.  Because the Corvette was an attainable car. 

In the late 80s a Corvette was about $30k, A Cadillac Seville was $28k a Mercedes SL was $61k, and a Ferrari Testarossa was $134k.  The Corvette was always about a lot of performance per dollar, that is what the fans love.  Even in the late 90s a Corvette was about $39k, and Cadillac Seville was $42k.    Today's Seville equivalent is probably like a CTS, which is why I think Corvette should be in that $50-80k range.  And that is the mission, a sports car that is within reach, not $100,000+ car like an Audi R8 that they sell 200 of a year.

Mercedes has one brand.  If GM was to kill Cadillac and sell $100k Chevy luxury sedans and $200k Chevy super cars, I don't care.  But the whole reason of a Chevy-Buick/GMC-Cadillac 3 tier set up is to have 3 tiers.  If Chevy's cost more than Cadillacs you don't need 3 tiers, just sell everything out of 1 dealership channel.  I would say the same thing about VW or Toyota, a $80-100k VW or Toyota sports car would make zero sense because they have Audi and Lexus for that.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

This every man's sports car that is a Corvette is NOT only defined by its more or less affordable base price...but MAINLY because the Corvette sells BY THE THOUSANDS...

THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY the Corvette is considered as the every day man's sports car.

The pre-owned used Corvette that is  5-6-7-8-9-10 years old...

Those Corvettes are DIRT CHEAP to buy as there are LITERATELY THOUSANDS of them to choose from. In alll kinds of conditions in all kinds of colours and options...

Correct, which if the C8 is in the $100-200k range, then it isn't "everyman" anymore.  And I get that new cars in general are not "everyman" anymore when the average new car is $35k and the median income in the USA is not going up much but healthcare, education, food, and everything else goes up and up.  But for the purposes of using the everyman sports car term, the Corvette is that and should stay that.

If GM wants hypercar performance and high priced super cars, ship that over to the Cadillac brand.  Unless the Cadillac brand is not about performance, but GM says it is about performance with these Super V-series coming.

Edited June 2, 2019 by smk4565

[balthazar]

On no no no no! “ Build high end versions of everything; people have money- they’ll buy it!” and “the profit margin would be amazing!” and “they could make (X) millions right there!”

Gotta work on the hypocrisy; it’s raging.

[oldshurst442]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Correct, which if the C8 is in the $100-200k range, then it isn't "everyman" anymore.  And I get that new cars in general are not "everyman" anymore when the average new car is $35k and the median income in the USA is not going up much but healthcare, education, food, and everything else goes up and up.  But for the purposes of using the everyman sports car term, the Corvette is that and should stay that.

If GM wants hypercar performance and high priced super cars, ship that over to the Cadillac brand.  Unless the Cadillac brand is not about performance, but GM says it is about performance with these Super V-series coming.

Not at all what I said...

Quote

 

Logically, the C8 will have a slightly higher base price than the C7 because every new generation Corvette always bumped up the base price.  

Another slight bump up would be because this C8 will be a departure from the norm. 

But on the flip side, GM/Chevrolet has been doing this since 1953. 

The Corvette has a built-in customer base since 1953 that expect a car in that familiar base price range. GM/Chevrolet will not deviate from that drastically. GM/Chevrolet big wigs have publicly said so that the C8 will NOT increase in price drastically as to not alienate their base price, meat and potatoes, customer base.

The higher end ZR1 equivalent C8 will probably be at the highest level  pricing of any Corvette to date. THIS is the Corvette probably to push not only performance levels to new heights, but price levels too. 

And THAT is OK...because EVERY Corvette since Corvettes started PUSHING the performance levels higher and higher ALSO had their price tags go higher and higher too... 

So I dont really get the phobia of the C8 being expensive.

Base Corvettes were more or less "affordable".  Higher end Pontiac and Oldsmobile levels of affordability. 

But the high end Corvettes were always out of reach for the MAJORITY of the American people at prices that were in the high end luxury vehicle prices such as Cadillacs and Lincolns back when Cadillacs and Lincolns WERE the ONLY luxury vehicles consdidered by the filthy rich...  Rolls Royces were simply niche....MOST 1%ers of the time didnt even bother with Rolls Royces.  Only the oldest of the old money, the stuffiest of the stuffiest bought Rolls Royces. And even then, these people  had their Rolls Royces, but they also had their Cadillac or Lincolns too. Because, even though Rolls Royces WERE Rolls Royces, NOTHING said that you had money and made it in life more than a Cadillac. More to it than that, nothing put an exclamation mark more than arriving at a destination than arriving in a Cadillac.

With that being said...after 66-67 years of Corvettes...the pricing formula has NEVER changed, and for the C8, GM and Chevrolet big wigs have confirmed that NOTHING will change in that regard either...

 

This every man's sports car that is a Corvette is NOT only defined by its more or less affordable base price...but MAINLY because the Corvette sells BY THE THOUSANDS...

THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY the Corvette is considered as the every day man's sports car.

The pre-owned used Corvette that is  5-6-7-8-9-10 years old...

Those Corvettes are DIRT CHEAP to buy as there are LITERATELY THOUSANDS of them to choose from. In alll kinds of conditions in all kinds of colours and options...

 

And BECAUSE the AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE support and  community is SOOOOO HUGE for the Corvette, a Corvette that is LITERATELY  20 years old, it could EASILY KEEP UP with performance with EXOTICS that cost 3-4-5 times MORE and that are BRAND NEW!!!

 

 

 

 

Again...stop pretending you dont understand what is written.  Maybe you got biased blinders on, but you surely aint that stupid to understand what was written and what has been going on with Corvette the last 67 years...

Edited June 2, 2019 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

First off the Corvette in the 60s was a $4,000 car which is like a $32k car now, in the 70s Corvettes were around $6,000 which is about $30k in today's money.  A 1974 Cadillac Eldorado was double the price of a 1974 Corvette.  Because the Corvette was an attainable car. 

In the late 80s a Corvette was about $30k, A Cadillac Seville was $28k a Mercedes SL was $61k, and a Ferrari Testarossa was $134k.  The Corvette was always about a lot of performance per dollar, that is what the fans love.  Even in the late 90s a Corvette was about $39k, and Cadillac Seville was $42k.    Today's Seville equivalent is probably like a CTS, which is why I think Corvette should be in that $50-80k range.  And that is the mission, a sports car that is within reach, not $100,000+ car like an Audi R8 that they sell 200 of a year.

Mercedes has one brand.  If GM was to kill Cadillac and sell $100k Chevy luxury sedans and $200k Chevy super cars, I don't care.  But the whole reason of a Chevy-Buick/GMC-Cadillac 3 tier set up is to have 3 tiers.  If Chevy's cost more than Cadillacs you don't need 3 tiers, just sell everything out of 1 dealership channel.  I would say the same thing about VW or Toyota, a $80-100k VW or Toyota sports car would make zero sense because they have Audi and Lexus for that.

This is all wrong...

You are going with base Corvette pricing IGNORING the high end Corvettes...while also looking at muscle car ending mid 1970s Corvettes...but at the same time...ignoring the fact that those smog era Corvettes ALSO took the Corvette to another level in its existence.  Those smog era Corvettes became DISCO cars in which LUXURY was the focus... and you guessed it...RAISED the prices on the Corvettes...this is the time where the Corvette added a new role to its image...that of a GT car...

You are sooooo all over the place...

The Corvette has ALWAYS adapted to the market...it became what it needed to become to survive in the market place.

Bottom line is this:

The C8 HAS to be mid-engined. The Corvette NEEDED to be mid-engined a decade ago.

And yes, the Corvette NEEDS to stay "affordable" (AFFORDABLE IN QUOTATION MARKS  "affordable")  because even in base form, affordability was always with a question mark...  

But the Corvette NEEDS to seek NEW types of buyers too. It wont hurt Corvette for pushing the limits of price on the HIGH END of Corvettes when Corvette WILL BE PUSHING PERFORMANCE AS WELL...

You know the Mercedes 1 million dollar F1 supercar you keep on talking about?

YEAH!  Corvette WILL be  nipping at its heels performance wise...

You could deny that all you want...but THAT is what Corvette does...it always did that.

And yeah...for that kind of performance with that kind of technology...you better believe that it will cost a lot of dough.

And the Corvette WILL have that state of the art technology to be able to compete with 1 million dollar cars...

It wont mean the Corvette will sell for 1 million dollars, but it will mean that the Corvette WILL go up up up in price...

NO...NOT the base Corvette...the TOP OF THE LINE Corvette!  And the TOP OF THE LINE Corvettes were ALWAYS stratospherically expensive relative to the market place of its time...

 

 

[balthazar]

"The Corvette NEEDED to be mid-engined a decade ago. "
Totally disagree with this statement.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

This is all wrong...

You are going with base Corvette pricing IGNORING the high end Corvettes...while also looking at muscle car ending mid 1970s Corvettes...but at the same time...ignoring the fact that those smog era Corvettes ALSO took the Corvette to another level in its existence.  Those smog era Corvettes became DISCO cars in which LUXURY was the focus... and you guessed it...RAISED the prices on the Corvettes...this is the time where the Corvette added a new role to its image...that of a GT car...

You are sooooo all over the place...

The Corvette has ALWAYS adapted to the market...it became what it needed to become to survive in the market place.

Bottom line is this:

The C8 HAS to be mid-engined. The Corvette NEEDED to be mid-engined a decade ago.

And yes, the Corvette NEEDS to stay "affordable" (AFFORDABLE IN QUOTATION MARKS  "affordable")  because even in base form, affordability was always with a question mark...  

But the Corvette NEEDS to seek NEW types of buyers too. It wont hurt Corvette for pushing the limits of price on the HIGH END of Corvettes when Corvette WILL BE PUSHING PERFORMANCE AS WELL...

You know the Mercedes 1 million dollar F1 supercar you keep on talking about?

YEAH!  Corvette WILL be  nipping at its heels performance wise...

You could deny that all you want...but THAT is what Corvette does...it always did that.

And yeah...for that kind of performance with that kind of technology...you better believe that it will cost a lot of dough.

And the Corvette WILL have that state of the art technology to be able to compete with 1 million dollar cars...

It wont mean the Corvette will sell for 1 million dollars, but it will mean that the Corvette WILL go up up up in price...

NO...NOT the base Corvette...the TOP OF THE LINE Corvette!  And the TOP OF THE LINE Corvettes were ALWAYS stratospherically expensive relative to the market place of its time...

 

 

If they want more performance form the Corvette and want to use over 600 hp then yes it needs to be mid-engine.  I would still argue that the Corvette could be front engine with 400-600 hp and still cost in that "affordable" range.  The C8 isn't just going to go up a little in price, mid-engine cars are expensive.  GM can say it won't go up much, but we'll see.   I am not going to buy a Corvette, they don't appeal to me, so I don't really care if it costs $50,000 or $500,000, but from a marketing/sales standpoint I think they are better off in that $50-80k range.

And the C8 even in top trim on its best day won't hold a candle to the Mercedes-AMG One.   No Corvette ever has cracked the 7 minute mark on the Nurburgring, the production car record is like 6:42 and the AMG One will be running it in under 6 minutes, maybe 5:30 range.  I can't wait to find out.  No road car on the planet is going to beat the AMG One around a track.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

On no no no no! “ Build high end versions of everything; people have money- they’ll buy it!” and “the profit margin would be amazing!” and “they could make (X) millions right there!”

Gotta work on the hypocrisy; it’s raging.

On a Cadillac sure, not on a Chevrolet.  Why not make a $120,000 luxury Suburban, or a $85,000 Impala?  GM has tiered brands for a reason, but they seem to forget that.  Although if they can sell $130,000 Corvettes, then good for them, take the money, absolutely.  If they wanted to make Corvette $200,000 to reap profit margin, I don't care.  But the point of a 3 tier brand system is to have 3 distinct tiers, which GM doesn't have right now.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If they want more performance form the Corvette and want to use over 600 hp then yes it needs to be mid-engine.  I would still argue that the Corvette could be front engine with 400-600 hp and still cost in that "affordable" range.  The C8 isn't just going to go up a little in price, mid-engine cars are expensive.  GM can say it won't go up much, but we'll see.   I am not going to buy a Corvette, they don't appeal to me, so I don't really care if it costs $50,000 or $500,000, but from a marketing/sales standpoint I think they are better off in that $50-80k range.

And the C8 even in top trim on its best day won't hold a candle to the Mercedes-AMG One.   No Corvette ever has cracked the 7 minute mark on the Nurburgring, the production car record is like 6:42 and the AMG One will be running it in under 6 minutes, maybe 5:30 range.  I can't wait to find out.  No road car on the planet is going to beat the AMG One around a track.

 

[smk4565]

Nurburgring production record holder:    Lamborghini Aventator SVJ:  6:45

Tobias Moers thinks the AMG One can do it in 5:19 or better to beat the Porsche 919 prototype car, which is not road legal.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If they want more performance form the Corvette and want to use over 600 hp then yes it needs to be mid-engine.  I would still argue that the Corvette could be front engine with 400-600 hp and still cost in that "affordable" range.  The C8 isn't just going to go up a little in price, mid-engine cars are expensive.  GM can say it won't go up much, but we'll see.   I am not going to buy a Corvette, they don't appeal to me, so I don't really care if it costs $50,000 or $500,000, but from a marketing/sales standpoint I think they are better off in that $50-80k range.

And the C8 even in top trim on its best day won't hold a candle to the Mercedes-AMG One.   No Corvette ever has cracked the 7 minute mark on the Nurburgring, the production car record is like 6:42 and the AMG One will be running it in under 6 minutes, maybe 5:30 range.  I can't wait to find out.  No road car on the planet is going to beat the AMG One around a track.

How high are you? Did you just seriously try to compare a Vette with an almost $3 million hypercar? Seriously? 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

On a Cadillac sure, not on a Chevrolet.  Why not make a $120,000 luxury Suburban, or a $85,000 Impala?  GM has tiered brands for a reason, but they seem to forget that.  Although if they can sell $130,000 Corvettes, then good for them, take the money, absolutely.  If they wanted to make Corvette $200,000 to reap profit margin, I don't care.  But the point of a 3 tier brand system is to have 3 distinct tiers, which GM doesn't have right now.

So Mercedes excuse in having multiple tiers is what?

 

”Shall I look at the $3 million hypercar or shall I look at the $30K FWD car? Good thing they both happen to be in the same place.”

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

"The Corvette NEEDED to be mid-engined a decade ago. "
Totally disagree with this statement.

You are right...Corvette should have become mid-engined right at the Disco Era...Id say 1978...the Silver Anniversary edition should have been the Aerovette instead. Without the Wankel of course.  ?

 

[smk4565]

57 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

How high are you? Did you just seriously try to compare a Vette with an almost $3 million hypercar? Seriously? 

So Mercedes excuse in having multiple tiers is what?

 

”Shall I look at the $3 million hypercar or shall I look at the $30K FWD car? Good thing they both happen to be in the same place.”

Oldshurst442 said the Corvette would be nipping at its heels.  They aren't even remotely close, as pointed out the Aventator SVJ isn't even close.

Mercedes doesn't have multiple tiers.  I am lost there.  It is one brand so they have to have a $3 million dollar car and a $35k car in the same place.  GM has 3 tiers, so the cheap stuff should be at Chevy, the middle at Buick, the expensive at Cadillac.    That is why I thought Corvette should stay where it is, and the mid-engine car make $100k or more and sell it at Cadillac.  

[oldshurst442]

It will be...

Not the base C8....the top of the line C8...

The Aventador is an old car now...besides...Lambos are not track cars...especially that lineage of Lambo which is Countach, El Diablo, Murcielago and now Aventador...

But yeah...keep drinking that Kool-Aid buddy! 

 

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Oldshurst442 said the Corvette would be nipping at its heels.  They aren't even remotely close, as pointed out the Aventator SVJ isn't even close.

Mercedes doesn't have multiple tiers.  I am lost there.  It is one brand so they have to have a $3 million dollar car and a $35k car in the same place.  GM has 3 tiers, so the cheap stuff should be at Chevy, the middle at Buick, the expensive at Cadillac.    That is why I thought Corvette should stay where it is, and the mid-engine car make $100k or more and sell it at Cadillac.  

So it’s better for ONE brand to have a $3 million spread between their cheapest and most expensive cars yet you are on here giving GM $h! without understanding the Vettes place in all this? I just love how you think GMs phantom issue wit their tiers is a bigger deal than one brand having a seven figure spread on the same dealer lot. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

It will be...

Not the base C8....the top of the line C8...

The Aventador is an old car now...besides...Lambos are not track cars...especially that lineage of Lambo which is Countach, El Diablo, Murcielago and now Aventador...

But yeah...keep drinking that Kool-Aid buddy! 

 

The Aventador SVJ and Hurcan Performante both do the Nurburgring in under 7 minutes, I would say that makes them track cars.  The Aventador may have been around a while, but it is still wicked fast.  I am not a Lambo guy, although I would prefer them to Ferrari who hasn't designed a good looking car in 20 years.

[smk4565]

21 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So it’s better for ONE brand to have a $3 million spread between their cheapest and most expensive cars yet you are on here giving GM $h! without understanding the Vettes place in all this? I just love how you think GMs phantom issue wit their tiers is a bigger deal than one brand having a seven figure spread on the same dealer lot. 

I am not saying one is better than the other it is just what they each have.   I actually tend to think a 2 brand strategy works best, like Toyota-Lexus or Ford-Lincoln, it gives you a mainstream and a luxury, and I don't think you really need a tweener brand in between.  The exception would be VW, that instead of VW-Audi has stuff like Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini but those are super low volume brands.

Really it comes down to strategy execution.  GM has a 3 dealership channel strategy, so they have to execute on that.  And it isn't just the Corvette, I think the Corvette should be a Chevy, and not a Cadillac, not its own brand.  But For Cadillac to build the V-brand I think they should have the ultimate GM performance car at Cadillac.  A Cadillac Brougham line that is like an ultra lux trim I think would be a good idea too.  The real problem is they need to get Cadillac up market, and they can't do that if all of GM's best stuff isn't at Cadillac.  Cadillac could have XT4, CT4, and CT5 all starting in the $30-$40k range with XT5 around $42k starting, and that is where Buick and GMC are supposed to be.  There is way too much overlap.  Which in the past I have said if Cadillac is going to that price point, why have Buick or GMC, just badge all that stuff as Cadillac and charge more for it and make more money.  And go to the 2 tier set up like Toyota-Lexus, Honda-Acura, Ford-Lincoln. 

[oldshurst442]

Nope....the Aventador is NOT a track car...

But its a testament to Lambo engineers getting that car that quick around a track...

And that is the thing...

YOU wax poetic for your beloved Mercedes F1 car...but fail to realize what other companies' engineers can do...especially in response to...yet another supercar...

The C8 Corvette Zora is said to have...a 1000 horsepower plus plowerplant with hybrid electric assist motor(s).  2 -3 electric motors? 1 electric motor?   Those are details that are yet unknown...

What is known though, is that Corvettes for the last 20 years, their top trim, all have been track monsters. All have been at the top of the 'Ring times. And of course all other competition just improves upon what they got to stay untop of the heap...including Corvettes... 

And the C8 Zora...which is believed to be the name of it, wont be any  different. 

It will have 1000 plus HP. It WILL be engineered to be a track monster. Hell, the base C8 is engineered to be a track monster. 

Why do you think all this Corvette Racing is for? 

Why do you think Chevy engineers finally made the decision to go mid-engined for?  And they made THAT decision for the C7...its the bankruptcy that delayed it...

Oh...about Ferrari

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a27626676/ferrari-sf90-stradale-hybrid-hypercar-power-specs-photos/

 

986 HP. 3 electric motors and out performs LaFerrari...

Do you think that Ferrari will leave the performance torch to their "baby" Ferrari?

HA! 

When the next generation of the F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari lineage will come to be, do you think that your beloved Mercedes will still be a leader in peformance?

And THIS is where Corvette comes...the C8

NOW, the C8 will have THE  right chassis to actually BE a legit "exotic", "supercar", "hypercar"  competitor to what you keep on harpering about...

And damn the price tag of any foreign exotic POS car you wanna put the Corvette C8 up against...

The C8 will have the right tools to actually not only nip at the heels, not only equal but SURPASS...

1000 plus horsepower today is just a mere number.

Hell...MOPAR and Chevy Small Block V8s already come very close to that 1000 horsepower number with the help of superchargers, but they do that all day long, 24/7/365 with ease and reliability  in DAILY DRIVEN duties on the week-days and track days on the week-ends...all for 100 000 dollars or less... 

THAT is without electric motor assist. THAT is with front heavy, (even though the Vette's engine is far far far back the engine bay and low low as can be to the ground...because pushrods...) RWD chassis WITHOUT AWD assist. Without gobs and gobs of carbon fiber...

You think Corvette wont be able to do carbon fiber tubs for a super limited ZORA C8 with 1500 HP 4 electric motor assist for a smidgen of the price of what Mercedes will do?

Corvette Racing is in the GT class...Not the other higher class. But Chevrolet....now Cadillac has joined that class...

You think that a future C8 wont be able to pull that off?

The way YOU wax poetic about that Mercedes supercar...I could do the same for Corvette...

Corvette has 60 successful years in racing.  Mercedes too...but YOU want to ignore what Corvette can do...

 

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

No Corvette ever has cracked the 7 minute mark on the Nurburgring...

Neither has a mercedes, and that's a whole brand of like 90 models. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I wonder if the different levels of V-Series are going to be distinguished by the new Newton-Meter designations that are coming... For example you can get a CT5-V550 or a CT5-V900

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I wonder if the different levels of V-Series are going to be distinguished by the new Newton-Meter designations that are coming... For example you can get a CT5-V550 or a CT5-V900

That very well could be.  I am not a fan of that naming scheme, Audi has something similar, but I could see Cadillac doing that and you could have multiple V’s.

[smk4565]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nope....the Aventador is NOT a track car...

But its a testament to Lambo engineers getting that car that quick around a track...

And that is the thing...

YOU wax poetic for your beloved Mercedes F1 car...but fail to realize what other companies' engineers can do...especially in response to...yet another supercar...

The C8 Corvette Zora is said to have...a 1000 horsepower plus plowerplant with hybrid electric assist motor(s).  2 -3 electric motors? 1 electric motor?   Those are details that are yet unknown...

What is known though, is that Corvettes for the last 20 years, their top trim, all have been track monsters. All have been at the top of the 'Ring times. And of course all other competition just improves upon what they got to stay untop of the heap...including Corvettes... 

And the C8 Zora...which is believed to be the name of it, wont be any  different. 

It will have 1000 plus HP. It WILL be engineered to be a track monster. Hell, the base C8 is engineered to be a track monster. 

Why do you think all this Corvette Racing is for? 

Why do you think Chevy engineers finally made the decision to go mid-engined for?  And they made THAT decision for the C7...its the bankruptcy that delayed it...

Oh...about Ferrari

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a27626676/ferrari-sf90-stradale-hybrid-hypercar-power-specs-photos/

 

986 HP. 3 electric motors and out performs LaFerrari...

Do you think that Ferrari will leave the performance torch to their "baby" Ferrari?

HA! 

When the next generation of the F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari lineage will come to be, do you think that your beloved Mercedes will still be a leader in peformance?

And THIS is where Corvette comes...the C8

NOW, the C8 will have THE  right chassis to actually BE a legit "exotic", "supercar", "hypercar"  competitor to what you keep on harpering about...

And damn the price tag of any foreign exotic POS car you wanna put the Corvette C8 up against...

The C8 will have the right tools to actually not only nip at the heels, not only equal but SURPASS...

1000 plus horsepower today is just a mere number.

Hell...MOPAR and Chevy Small Block V8s already come very close to that 1000 horsepower number with the help of superchargers, but they do that all day long, 24/7/365 with ease and reliability  in DAILY DRIVEN duties on the week-days and track days on the week-ends...all for 100 000 dollars or less... 

THAT is without electric motor assist. THAT is with front heavy, (even though the Vette's engine is far far far back the engine bay and low low as can be to the ground...because pushrods...) RWD chassis WITHOUT AWD assist. Without gobs and gobs of carbon fiber...

You think Corvette wont be able to do carbon fiber tubs for a super limited ZORA C8 with 1500 HP 4 electric motor assist for a smidgen of the price of what Mercedes will do?

Corvette Racing is in the GT class...Not the other higher class. But Chevrolet....now Cadillac has joined that class...

You think that a future C8 wont be able to pull that off?

The way YOU wax poetic about that Mercedes supercar...I could do the same for Corvette...

Corvette has 60 successful years in racing.  Mercedes too...but YOU want to ignore what Corvette can do...

 

I don’t care so much about the horsepower on these hyper track cars, the lap times depend on weight, brakes and suspension because all these cars have 800-1000 hp.  The AMG One is like 2,800 lbs with F1 suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, etc.  It is way faster than a LaFerrari or a SPF90 or whatever the new one is, I think it named after sunblock.  And Mercedes has beat Ferrari the past 5 years in a row in F1 and Mercedes is undefeated this year, I am not worried about Ferrari beating them, Tesla Roadster with its rocket thrusters could be the challenger but I think it will be too heavy.

I am also not ignoring what GM performance can do, the rumored specs of the C8 are impressive, I would just put my ultimate performance car in my high end brand not my value brand.

 

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Neither has a mercedes, and that's a whole brand of like 90 models. 

7:04 for the GT R Pro is their fastest ever, which is what makes AMG One so impressive that it can talks a minute or two off that. 

[Robert Hall]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don’t care so much about the horsepower on these hyper track cars, the lap times depend on weight, brakes and suspension because all these cars have 800-1000 hp.  The AMG One is like 2,800 lbs with F1 suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, etc.  It is way faster than a LaFerrari or a SPF90 or whatever the new one is, I think it named after sunblock.  

Blah, blah, blah...the AMG One is not a production car yet, so any details are just speculation at this point...still a couple years from being real.  

 The hypercars are just a lot of pointless nonsense, IMO...they either end up in collections and are never driven, hauled to car shows, or catch fire. Real world performance cars are much more interesting..

Edited June 3, 2019 by Robert Hall