Industry News: Trump Raises Tariffs on All Mexican Goods

[dwightlooi]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Tariffs implemented with China in the last year have increased our deficit with them. Tariffs are not the answer because no matter how much you tariff, we will never be able to compete with the cheap labor of China and many other countries. Innovation and creating new industry are the first steps in increasing our exports to others without the need of growth constricting tariffs.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/story/2019/03/06/us-china-trade-deficit-record-1242498

 

To further illustrate how just implementing tariffs is an oversimplification that ignores far bigger problems. 

https://www.econlib.org/tariffs-and-the-trade-deficit/

Actually, yes you can. If the cost of an iPhone in China is $10 Labor and $200 materials, whereas in the USA it's $100 labor and $200 materials because US wages are 10x higher than China (it actually is NOT 10x more like 3~4x), then a 43% tariff will COMPLETELY eliminate any motivation to produce in China and export to the USA. $210 x 1.43 = $300.3

A country like the USA has all the natural resources, manpower and technology to make EVERYTHING we need and want. Do do not need ANY trade. But we should be open to trade where is enriches out country. That requires that we export as much as import or more than we import.

We can easily implement a tariff policy whereby we look at each country separately. If we have a surplus or no deficits we can have free trade. If we have a deficit, we raise tariffs progressively until there is ZERO deficit or a surplus. Any country who wishes to export to the USA with low tariffs or no tariff must find ways and adopt policies to buy more US goods. Or, they can choose to basically not trade with the USA, that's fine too. Trade volume is not important. Trade that generates deficit is not in the best interest of the nation and must be corrected or ended. Of course this is totally against WTO rules which is why we should withdraw from the WTO -- a treaty designed to favor developing countries and transfer wealth globally, just like we ended our participation in the Paris Climate Ripoff.

Trade is BUSINESS. SURPLUSES are PROFITS that enriches a country. DEFICITS are LOSSES that impoverish a country. It is called MERCANTILISM.

Not rocket Science. Orange Man understands it very well, so sleep well tonight knowing that for the first time in 50 years we are not lead by total morons.

Edited June 4, 2019 by dwightlooi

[balthazar]

If Gov’t focused & pointedly targeted internal waste & fraud alone, 100s of billions of dollars would appear as if by magic. ‘Free’ dollars, in effect. They won’t do it. 

One of the most appealing, budget-centric proposals I ever heard was the ‘penny plan’. If I have it correct, all Gov’t entities would take a 1% budget cut; one penny on the dollar. Virtually indistinguishable, yet I recall howls of protest and ridicule that ‘that would never work/ do anything’.

Consider the following: hire me to work for you for 30 days. Pay me one penny on day 1. Only caveat: my pay doubles everyday and it’s an unbreakable contract. Sound like a good deal for the employer, right?

In 5 days, I’ve made 31 cents. After 10 days, I’ve made a total of $10.23. “Not workable” for me, right? Not going to accomplish anything, right? 

Got a calculator & a scrap of paper?

[G. David Felt]

32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If Gov’t focused & pointedly targeted internal waste & fraud alone, 100s of billions of dollars would appear as if by magic. ‘Free’ dollars, in effect. They won’t do it. 

One of the most appealing, budget-centric proposals I ever heard was the ‘penny plan’. If I have it correct, all Gov’t entities would take a 1% budget cut; one penny on the dollar. Virtually indistinguishable, yet I recall howls of protest and ridicule that ‘that would never work/ do anything’.

Consider the following: hire me to work for you for 30 days. Pay me one penny on day 1. Only caveat: my pay doubles everyday and it’s an unbreakable contract. Sound like a good deal for the employer, right?

In 5 days, I’ve made 31 cents. After 10 days, I’ve made a total of $10.23. “Not workable” for me, right? Not going to accomplish anything, right? 

Got a calculator & a scrap of paper?

Day 1: you start with 1 penny but end with 2^1 pennies
Day 2: you start with 2 pennies and end with 2^1*2=2^2 pennies
Day 3: you start with 2^2 pennies and end with 2^2*2=2^3 pennies
...
Day 30: you start with 2^29 pennies but end with 2^29*2=2^30 pennies

In dollars, you now have $10,737,418.24.
(And not, $5,368,709.12, because 1 penny is what you have on day 0, not on day 1, when the doubling started)

Of course, if every day you are adding what you are getting to what you already had, then in the end you would have $(2^31-1)/100, or $21.474.836,47.

[balthazar]

Minor point : your are getting paid; at the end of day 1 you have 1 cent.

Major point : I got the $10,737,418 as the cumulative income. Starting with 1 penny doubled everything by the end - see how little bits add up to huge bits?

Edited June 4, 2019 by balthazar

[dwightlooi]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

If Gov’t focused & pointedly targeted internal waste & fraud alone, 100s of billions of dollars would appear as if by magic. ‘Free’ dollars, in effect. They won’t do it. 

One of the most appealing, budget-centric proposals I ever heard was the ‘penny plan’. If I have it correct, all Gov’t entities would take a 1% budget cut; one penny on the dollar. Virtually indistinguishable, yet I recall howls of protest and ridicule that ‘that would never work/ do anything’.

Consider the following: hire me to work for you for 30 days. Pay me one penny on day 1. Only caveat: my pay doubles everyday and it’s an unbreakable contract. Sound like a good deal for the employer, right?

In 5 days, I’ve made 31 cents. After 10 days, I’ve made a total of $10.23. “Not workable” for me, right? Not going to accomplish anything, right? 

Got a calculator & a scrap of paper?

They won't do it because that is what the Swamp lives on. Another fact of reality is that the overwhelming majority of the Federal budget (~62%) is in social entitlements. Without addressing the Social Entitlement Complex, all the austerity and reform on the federal government machinery and defense is merely addressing 1/3 of the budget. The seed of America's potential destruction was planted in Social Security, Medicare and Welfare, just like the seed of America's industrial demise was planted in "New Deal" and "Free Trade".

[balthazar]

I’m not against those programs, it’s just the incredible waste within each & the extreme negligence Gov’t consistently shows in running them.

[G. David Felt]

20 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

They won't do it because that is what the Swamp lives on. Another fact of reality is that the overwhelming majority of the Federal budget (~62%) is in social entitlements. Without addressing the Social Entitlement Complex, all the austerity and reform on the federal government machinery and defense is merely addressing 1/3 of the budget. The seed of America's potential destruction was planted in Social Security, Medicare and Welfare, just like the seed of America's industrial demise was planted in "New Deal" and "Free Trade".

SS and Medicare can and should work if it was not for the Government hacks borrowing against it. It is not much more than a savings account for Americans that pay into it. Reality is the Gov Hacks on both sides of the isle have destroyed the original intent and give it away to every Tom, Dick and Harry from anywhere even when they have not paid into it. This is a sad reality. The rest of the welfare programs I totally agree with you are abusive and not very helpful when woman and men see it as a way to just lay around and not contribute to society..

Those interested in looking at the full 2020 budget report, here is Trumps 2020 Proposed budget: https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-05/55195-APB2020_0.pdf

Those interested in the actual 2019 budget in 16 slides now can see it here: https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-03/55013-BudgetSlides2019.pdf

Those interested in the Full 2019 budget report can find it here: https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-04/55154-presentation.pdf

The only time we were going in the right direction was under President Clinton and the two parties working together for a budget that we lived within and paying down debt. Since then and before then is was a mess that both parties are equally to blame.

Based on the budget report we have the following spending for 2019:

USA Gov expects to spend $4.746 Trillion this year. 60% will go to pay mandated benefits

• U.S. debt interest payments - $479 Billion on $22 Trillion debt. This is our FASTEST Growing Federal Expense.
• Social Security expense will be $1.102 trillion - Currently SS costs are 100% covered by Payroll SS Tax including interest on investments.
• Medicare expense will be $679 Billion - This is already underfunded, current taxes do not cover all costs.
• Medicaid expense will be $418 Billion - This is 100% funded by the General fund.

Discretionary Spending is where you find Military and Veterans Affairs - Current 2019 Budget is $1.426 trillion

• $989 Billion is for all Military here and overseas, Homeland Security, State Department and Veterans Affairs of which $576 Billion is focused on Department of Defense.

Our Deficit for 2019

• $1.101 Trillion - This is the difference between the $4.746 Trillion Spending Budget and the estimated $3.645 trillion revenue.

For those that might be interested, the top 10 Presidents with the BIggest Debt Increases based on yearly presidential budgets:

If you want to see a well laid out list of Presidential Budget Deficits by Fiscal Year, this site actually did a great job in laying it out in an easy to read manner:

https://www.thebalance.com/deficit-by-president-what-budget-deficits-hide-3306151

For those that want TRANSPARENCY, This group was setup to insure folks can easily follow and see what is being spent where in the  Government .

https://www.usaspending.gov/#/

Excellent Write up on Trumps Tariffs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/phillevy/2018/04/12/trump-tariff-revenue-what-tariff-revenue/#48461893390f

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

Actually, yes you can. If the cost of an iPhone in China is $10 Labor and $200 materials, whereas in the USA it's $100 labor and $200 materials because US wages are 10x higher than China (it actually is NOT 10x more like 3~4x), then a 43% tariff will COMPLETELY eliminate any motivation to produce in China and export to the USA. $210 x 1.43 = $300.3

A country like the USA has all the natural resources, manpower and technology to make EVERYTHING we need and want. Do do not need ANY trade. But we should be open to trade where is enriches out country. That requires that we export as much as import or more than we import.

We can easily implement a tariff policy whereby we look at each country separately. If we have a surplus or no deficits we can have free trade. If we have a deficit, we raise tariffs progressively until there is ZERO deficit or a surplus. Any country who wishes to export to the USA with low tariffs or no tariff must find ways and adopt policies to buy more US goods. Or, they can choose to basically not trade with the USA, that's fine too. Trade volume is not important. Trade that generates deficit is not in the best interest of the nation and must be corrected or ended. Of course this is totally against WTO rules which is why we should withdraw from the WTO -- a treaty designed to favor developing countries and transfer wealth globally, just like we ended our participation in the Paris Climate Ripoff.

Trade is BUSINESS. SURPLUSES are PROFITS that enriches a country. DEFICITS are LOSSES that impoverish a country. It is called MERCANTILISM.

Not rocket Science. Orange Man understands it very well, so sleep well tonight knowing that for the first time in 50 years we are not lead by total morons.

We have all we need huh? All but the 1.5 billion person labor force and half of the rare earth metals for starters. It is a novel though but we won’t ever self supply everything we need. Never have and it won’t start today, end of story. 

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

They won't do it because that is what the Swamp lives on. Another fact of reality is that the overwhelming majority of the Federal budget (~62%) is in social entitlements. Without addressing the Social Entitlement Complex, all the austerity and reform on the federal government machinery and defense is merely addressing 1/3 of the budget. The seed of America's potential destruction was planted in Social Security, Medicare and Welfare, just like the seed of America's industrial demise was planted in "New Deal" and "Free Trade".

And please list these social “entitlements” you speak of. Things like social security and Medicare are not entitlements and folks on the right need to stop calling it that. We paid into it so it is not an “entitlement”, plain and simple. And if you want to get into the welfare side of it, feel free. Between my wife and myself, we worked nine years at AZDES (Arizona’s welfare department). There are so many myths about it, that I don’t think I could fit it all on this site.

Seems like some folks need a lesson in idealism vs. realism. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

“Orange man understands it”. 

 

You mean the four time bankrupt, won’t release his taxes, couldn’t even sell vodka, the head of the defunct Trump University, the most transparent person on the planet, orange man? That’s the man you’re talking about? Sorry but I can’t even begin to take that seriously if you think he is the answer to our problems. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by surreal1272

[dwightlooi]

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

“Orange man understands it”.

You mean the four time bankrupt, won’t release his taxes, couldn’t even sell vodka, the head of the defunct Trump University, the most transparent person on the planet, orange man? That’s the man you’re talking about? Sorry but I can’t even begin to take that seriously if you think he is the answer to our problems.  

Yes, that man. Who also happens to be the best president in a century on foreign policy, on trade, on immigration, on energy, on taxes, on education and on every aspect of common sense. I don't care what you think of me.

[dwightlooi]

17 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

We have all we need huh? All but the 1.5 billion person labor force and half of the rare earth metals for starters. It is a novel though but we won’t ever self supply everything we need. Never have and it won’t start today, end of story. 

...

Seems like some folks need a lesson in idealism vs. realism. 

Actually, yes, we can even though we don't have to. It's very simple. Make what we can and buy what we cannot despite high tariffs which encourages us to find a way to make more. Less Trade is preferable to trade deficits. All the bull$h! your economics professor tries to "teach" you on absolute and comparative advantage is true. True but misunderstood, because prices are not measured by man-hours but by currency.

Its not idealism, its common sense. Free Trade and Globalism is idealism.

[surreal1272]

What I find hilarious is that you have some folks talking about the spending issues with our social programs yet they are eerily silent when it comes to biggest piece of the US budget pie. 

 

 

1 minute ago, dwightlooi said:

Actually, yes, we can even though we don't have to. It's very simple. Make what we can and buy what we cannot despite high tariffs which encourages us to find a way to make more. Less Trade is preferable to trade deficits. All the bull$h! your economics professor tries to "teach" you on absolute and comparative advantage is true. True but misunderstood, because prices are not measured by man-hours but by currency.

Its not idealism, its common sense. Free Trade and Globalism is idealism.

Free Trade is idealism yet the “orange man” is trying to get that very thing passed through Congress this fall via the USMCA. You can’t support his stand on tariffs and support his notion of free trade at the same time yet you seem content to put both into the hands of one man. And let me say this again. Idealism aside (and that is exactly what you are talking about), this country cannot compete with a 1.5 billion person labor force, and damn sure not with tariffs. They can and will get it from somewhere else. Ask Brazil and their soybean industry how much they love the extra business they have picked up from China. That’s where your “we can make everything” argument falls apart because so can a host of other countries. We are not unique in this regard. 

[oldshurst442]

I saw @dwightlooi 's response and I laughed at it...

Quote

A country like the USA has all the natural resources, manpower and technology to make EVERYTHING we need and want. Do do not need ANY trade.

I wanted to mention since the dawn of time...humans from one area, figured out trade routes with humans from another area was the ONLY way to enrich their area...not only with products like wine or olive oil or spices or stuff like trinkets, vases and gold and bronze and the like...but with CULTURE and ART and...IDEAS and TECHNOLOGY...

MOST IMPORTANTLY...with ART and CULTURE and IDEAS and TECHNOLOGY...

@dwightlooi  is forgetting that the Roman Empire is the reason why the GREEK WORLD survived...and why did the Greek world survive?

BECAUSE of the ancient GREEK trade routes that went as far as India and China and Persia...and Egypt and beyond Egypt.

China...yes...like you said Dwight....China KNOWS a thing or two about trade routes...they've been doing it for 12 000 years...

And all of those Ancient Greek trade routes, there were trade routes where the Ancient Greeks DID NOT have AN INFLUENCE on...

Meaning...there were Ancient peoples that traded with each other that had NOTHING to do with Ancient Greece.  But...somehow...Ancient ideas from Greece and from those areas DID influence each other through the influence EVERYBODY had with each other...   Sumerians, Hitties, Hebrews...ALL traded with each other DIRECTLY but NEVER or SELDOM with the Greek sdirectly, but the Persians had DIRECT trades with them and Greeks had DIRECT trades with the Persians... and...its funny...all in that area had SIMILAR ideologies, SIMILAR Dieties...SIMILAR languages....yes...including Greek...

Yeah...the famous Greek alphabet...whose origins are influenced by that Middle Eastern world I just mentioned...

Astronomy...a very Greek thing...but the thing is...astronomy was ALWAYS a subject that was discussed by the Ancients of EVERY region...and yes...TRADE ROUTES helped EXCHANGE ideas...

The Roman Empire...whose trade routes were probably the most vast...kept the Greek world alive because THEY were the ones to keep the Greek philosophies on trade, language, money...

And all that...because of TRADE ROUTES...

The UNITED STATES of AMERICA...

ITS COMPANIES...

FORD

GENERAL MOTORS

COCA-COLA

HOLLYWOOD MOVIES

and I could go on and on

KENTUCKY MOTHERPHOQUING CHICKEN???!!!

 Does NOT go WORLD WIDE if NOT for TRADE ROUTES...

@dwightlooi and all others...

YOU FOLK want AMERICAN CULTURE to DOMINATE the world...and YOU HAVE BEEN...but you dont want some of it back from other places???

You know why Ancient Greece was soooooo respected? Because Ancient Greece  INFLUENCED other peoples...but ALLOWED to be IEQUALLY INFLUENCED...  And THAT is why the Romans wanted THEIR Empire to resemble the Greek way...

And THAT is why the Greek world survived...

You guys talk about trade in-equality?

Since WW2...America has had quite the trade imbalance going on with MANY countries...FAVOURING the USA...

The US has no trade imbalance with Canada...

The US may have a trade imbalance with China...only because THEY BUILD AMERICAN GOODS on the CHEAP...

GTFO with YOUR crying...

You mention the iPhone...

Wallstreet in New York along with Reagan OPENED up the doors to China to BUILD AMERICAN goods in China...

BLAME AMERICAN GREED for that...NOT CHINA!!!

And on trade routes...YOU gots lots to learn...pick up a history book...and learn from the Ancients...

Yeah..there was war...only because TRADE ROUTES ARE LUCRATIVE...

And AMERICAN CORPORATIONS....KNOW HOW LUCRATIVE THEY CAN BE...

Trade routes WILL ONLY BENEFIT YOUR CORPORATIONS...

CUT TRADE ROUTES OUT...and THERE WILL NOT BE AMERICAN CORPORATIONS...THE OTHER COUNTRIES" CORPORATIONS WILL BECOME BIGGER, WEALTHIER, STRONGER AND MORE TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED...AND THEY WILL TAKE OVER THE AMERICAN ONES...

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

So nothing to offer towards the conversation at hand @ocnblu but you sure find time to down vote the truth. Honestly, it’s pretty pathetic and childish at this point but then again Trump supporters tend to reveal themselves as the true snowflakes of the world. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

57 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So nothing to offer towards the conversation at hand @ocnblu but you sure find time to down vote the truth. Honestly, it’s pretty pathetic and childish at this point but then again Trump supporters tend to reveal themselves as the true snowflakes of the world. 

I am not going to keep this going.  Preach to your little choir and leave me the hell out of it.  I've said my piece. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

All I need to know about the anti-Trump crowd.  Clutching their pearls, ready to jump on a plane to Germany... and yet they're still here, reaping the benefits.  Aaaannnd... that's a wrap, folks!

Edited June 5, 2019 by ocnblu

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

I don't care what you think of me.

I dont judge you by your political ideologies. 

But I do judge you by the way you respond.  

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

All I need to know about the anti-Trump crowd.  Clutching their pearls, ready to jump on a plane to Germany... and yet they're still here, reaping the benefits.  Aaaannnd... that's a wrap, folks!

And that is why you fail. I am not “anti-trump”. I’m anti-idiot. Obama was one more times than I can count but Trump has taken it to a whole other level. Sorry you can’t accept facts so much that you have to make assumptions about the folks who dare to put out valid criticisms of Trumps policies. I suggest growing up and getting over your delicate snowflake feelings towards this and actually listen to what people are saying instead of what you think they’re saying. You might actually learn something. 

18 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

I am not going to keep this going.  Preach to your little choir and leave me the hell out of it.  I've said my piece. 

Not going to keep this going yet you made another snide post right after this post. Your piece is clearly worth jack squat apparently. If you want to left out of it, maybe you should just stop coming to this thread and voting however you please since you’ve said your piece. Just save those great thoughts for future EV threads. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

Yes, that man. Who also happens to be the best president in a century on foreign policy, on trade, on immigration, on energy, on taxes, on education and on every aspect of common sense. I don't care what you think of me.

Sorry it took a few minutes of laughter wearing off before I could respond. I never made any assumptions about you so your little “I don’t care what you think of me” rings a bit hollow.

 

I hear Trump University offers a great education with a great “How to negotiate and kiss the asses of North Korean dictators” program. That’s what I think of him and your “best president” remark. Just LMAO over here!

Edited June 5, 2019 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

I try to be reasonable but in a nutshell. 

 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

“Orange man understands it”. 

 

You mean the four time bankrupt, won’t release his taxes, couldn't even sell vodka, the head of the defunct Trump University, the most transparent person on the planet, orange man? That’s the man you’re talking about? Sorry but I can’t even begin to take that seriously if you think he is the answer to our problems. 

Hate to correct you, but I know you will respect the FACTS:

• 0 Personal Bankruptcy
• 6 Corporate Bankruptcies
  • 1991 Trump Taj Mahal
  • 1992 Trump Castle Hotel & Casino
  • 1992 Trump Plaza Casino
  • 1992 Trump Plaza Hotel
  • 2004 Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts
  • 2006 Trump Entertainment resorts
  • 2009 Trump Entertainment Resorts

Why Donald Trump's Companies Went Bankrupt

Interesting that the news is showing a record number of Farmers declaring Bankrupt due to the Tariff war.

https://www.salon.com/2019/02/13/midwest-farmers-going-broke-at-record-rates-thanks-to-trumps-trade-war/

Trumps Trade War has caused the highest debt and largest percentage ever in Foreclosed and Bankrupt farmers in the last 40 plus years.

Over all, I agree that we need to change tactics with countries like China, but the approach of the Art of the Deal is clearly NOT the right approach, Trump appears to be more about the Art of the Steal. This is a fact born of 6 bankruptcy's and taking others money.

[surreal1272]

Just now, dfelt said:

Hate to correct you, but I know you will respect the FACTS:

• 0 Personal Bankruptcy
• 6 Corporate Bankruptcies
  • 1991 Trump Taj Mahal
  • 1992 Trump Castle Hotel & Casino
  • 1992 Trump Plaza Casino
  • 1992 Trump Plaza Hotel
  • 2004 Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts
  • 2006 Trump Entertainment resorts
  • 2009 Trump Entertainment Resorts

Why Donald Trump's Companies Went Bankrupt

Interesting that the news is showing a record number of Farmers declaring Bankrupt due to the Tariff war.

https://www.salon.com/2019/02/13/midwest-farmers-going-broke-at-record-rates-thanks-to-trumps-trade-war/

Trumps Trade War has caused the highest debt and largest percentage ever in Foreclosed and Bankrupt farmers in the last 40 plus years.

Over all, I agree that we need to change tactics with countries like China, but the approach of the Art of the Deal is clearly NOT the right approach, Trump appears to be more about the Art of the Steal. This is a fact born of 6 bankruptcy's and taking others money.

My bad. Lost count at four lol! Let me say this again. The man couldn’t sell VODKA and couldn’t keep multiple casinos open! Those are two things that this country loves more than anything yet he couldn’t figure out how to make money on it. Booze and gambling!

[balthazar]

In the interest of facts & equalibrium, wilipedia has a list of defunct casinos in the Las Vegas valley alone that numbers 47. Casinos apparently go belly up with considerable frequency. MOST industries see frequent individual failures- there are entire gas station brands that have disappeared- perhaps 100, and there are more people & more vehicles every year. A large public business's failure is seldom attributable to a single particular individual.

I'm going to assume Trump was not personally running or establishing any policies on the running of any casinos that bore his name. That's in no way a claim that he has not done ruinous things. it's just this sort of loosey goosey nonsense talk ['Trump can't even run a casino'] that grinds my gears. 

Now, tell me via industry stats that he WAS directly involved in aspects of running them AND his branded casinos have had a failure rate 2 or 3 times that of the industry average, and I start to swing the needle back to point at Trump, tho that alone doesn't tell me what happened.. I prefer to keep things factual, which is to say; better than "fact-based truths" [whatever that may be].

Edited June 5, 2019 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

38 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Now, tell me via industry stats that he WAS directly involved in aspects

He probably couldnt get his chefs to put an equal amount of blueberries in the muffins in HIS casinos....

In all honesty...a big business like a casino, has many facets. 

 Even a crackerjack like Frank Rosenthal  had a hard time. And he was a control freak. As so I understood not only from the movie, but googling his history.

It remains though, that because Trump was front and center in these businesses, his name and  presence...it dont matter if he was the reason why they failed or the incompetent people he chose to run the casinos...

After all, watching several seasons of his TV show..."Youre Fired" (Yes...I know "The Apprentice...he was such a damned arrogant fool that he wanted to trademark 'Youre Fired')  many a times, HE would OFTEN blame the "project manager" and fire him/her BECAUSE the project manager couldnt manage the incompetent workers...

Yes...he would allow the incompetant workers that defense as it made great television...but...as his TV ratings proved...he really was a better TV star than he was a businessman.

The upside to that is...so Ive heard...

Because there is another, even less favourable angle to Trump's business acumen, according to some folk who hate him...LOOOOOONG before he decided to try his hand in politics...

Those bankruptcies...were more or less...a calculated affair...

I dont recall the details...nor do I care enough to find links to post them as proof...but it is a common theme with his former business associates that he supposedly screwed over,   that he would manipulate loss of revenue to screw them out of monies he owed...

And there is speculation that he used that tactic for those bankruptcies...

Which is worse?

An incompetent businessman who boasts how good he is as a businessman yet he has several bankruptcies...(and yes...successful businessmen DO have businesses that fail...over and over again...but that is what makes them succesful, is that they never stop trying...)]

Or a businessman that has no morals and uses unscrupulous business practices to get ahead. (Again, the free market system encourages this behaviour so Trump aint the only one) 

Bottom line is:

Well...this thread is full of answers both for and against Trump.

Pick a side...

I for one...wouldnt trust this phoquer with declogging my toilets...but hey...Im just a guy that flips hamburgers for a living.  But I do it HONESTLY!!! 

Edited June 5, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

In the interest of facts & equalibrium, wilipedia has a list of defunct casinos in the Las Vegas valley alone that numbers 47. Casinos apparently go belly up with considerable frequency. MOST industries see frequent individual failures- there are entire gas station brands that have disappeared- perhaps 100, and there are more people & more vehicles every year. A large public business's failure is seldom attributable to a single particular individual.

I'm going to assume Trump was not personally running or establishing any policies on the running of any casinos that bore his name. That's in no way a claim that he has not done ruinous things. it's just this sort of loosey goosey nonsense talk ['Trump can't even run a casino'] that grinds my gears. 

Now, tell me via industry stats that he WAS directly involved in aspects of running them AND his branded casinos have had a failure rate 2 or 3 times that of the industry average, and I start to swing the needle back to point at Trump, tho that alone doesn't tell me what happened.. I prefer to keep things factual, which is to say; better than "fact-based truths" [whatever that may be].

You have a point but it still flies in the face of Trump of being this super smart business man when he is average at best and sure as hell not some kind of “extremely stable genius”. I also refer to his other failures like his vodka venture that flopped fantastically despite the normal Trumpian fanfare. The man can’t even get US banks to front him money anymore. It’s why he owes China a crap ton of money. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302216-how-much-money-does-the-trump-organization-owe%3famp

Edited June 5, 2019 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You have a point but it still flies in the face of Trump of being this super smart business man when he is average at best and sure as hell not some kind of “extremely stable genius”. I also refer to his other failures like his vodka venture that flopped fantastically despite the normal Trumpian fanfare. The man can’t even get US banks to front him money anymore. It’s why he owes China a crap ton of money. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302216-how-much-money-does-the-trump-organization-owe%3famp

And add this. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/donald-trumps-13-biggest-business-failures-59556/amp/

[dwightlooi]

The China-US trade situation is VERY SIMPLE...

(1) China sells us $540 billion worth of stuff. They only buy $120 million of our stuff. Trade with China cost $420 billion in US Wealth every year. If this is allowed to go on, China will get very rich and we will get very poor.

(2) Part of that is low Chinese wages, part of it is high levels of market protection by the Chinese, part of that is from low tariffs on our stupid part and part of it is China simply cheats via exchange rates, intellectual properties violations and industrial espionage.

(3) China is VERY replaceable. We do not need Chinese factories at all. If the idea is to have cheap consumer goods, Cambodian factories, Vietnamese factories, Taiwanese factories, Indian factories, Indonesian factories, Thai factories all offer cheap labor -- none of these countries are a geopolitical rival to the USA the way China is. It makes zero sense to enrich your biggest opponent.

(4) More importantly, cheap consumer goods and trade volume should not be the objective of public policy. Surpluses or at least the elimination of deficits should be. The revival of American industry should be. Why? Because irrespective of consumer good prices, consumption of US goods enrich US companies and US workers which then pay US taxes, consume US services and buy more US goods. This feeds growth and prosperity back into the US economy. Sending money to another country for cheap stuff simply BLEEDS the US economy and enriches our rivals and enemies.

(5) If you believe that a $19 trillion economy cannot do without $120 billion in exports to China, you are delusional. If you believe that $540 billion in imports cannot be replaced with domestic manufacture or alternative imports, you are simply silly. The show down with China is long overdue, and there is no reason a country which buys 5 times as much as it sells cannot win ANY trade war.

[surreal1272]

Those are all fine and dandy scenarios but you chose to ignore one big number. 

 

$1.23 Trillion

Thats the amount is US debt OWNED by China.

 

You also skipped this number:

$12 Trillion

That is China’s economy whose growth and GDP, for the record, has and continues to outpace the US economy and GDP and has for the last thirty years. To pretend like this is small potatoes is just ignorant to the facts.

 

A snippet from Investopedia.com

 

”The World Bank reported a spurt in China’s economic growth in 2017 for the first time since 2010, mainly driven by a cyclical rebound in global trade. It projects a growth of 6.6% in 2018 which would sober down to around 5.5% by 2023. Over the years, the difference in the size of the Chinese and the U.S. economy has been shrinking rapidly. In 2017, the Chinese GDP in nominal terms stood at $12.01 trillion, lower than the U.S. by $7.37 trillion. In 2018, the gap is expected to reduce to $6.32 trillion and by 2023 the difference would be of $2.96 trillion. In terms of GDP in PPP, China is the largest economy with a GDP (PPP) of $23.15 trillion. By 2023, China GDP (PPP) would be $37.06 trillion. China’s huge population brings down its GDP per capita to $8,643.11 (seventy-second position).”

Besides, everything you just stated contradicts your “The US could do it all ourselves” statement you made earlier. You can’t sit on both sides of the fence where that is concerned. Yes, we know China has bent some rules but guess what? So have we! This is not news nor will it change a damn thing by implementing tariffs, which is the original subject of the thread to begin with. History has shown tariffs and protectionism policies to be a huge failures. See the 1930s if you have any doubts about that because Trump is reading from that outdated playbook. All the number shell games you just played do not change that fact. 

And remember folks. All this “buy America” propaganda was typed and posted on devices NOT made in the US. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

History has shown tariffs and protectionism policies to be a huge failures.

Those things certainly aren’t currently failing China .

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

The China-US trade situation is VERY SIMPLE...

(1) China sells us $540 billion worth of stuff. They only buy $120 million of our stuff. Trade with China cost $420 billion in US Wealth every year. If this is allowed to go on, China will get very rich and we will get very poor.

(2) Part of that is low Chinese wages, part of it is high levels of market protection by the Chinese, part of that is from low tariffs on our stupid part and part of it is China simply cheats via exchange rates, intellectual properties violations and industrial espionage.

(3) China is VERY replaceable. We do not need Chinese factories at all. If the idea is to have cheap consumer goods, Cambodian factories, Vietnamese factories, Taiwanese factories, Indian factories, Indonesian factories, Thai factories all offer cheap labor -- none of these countries are a geopolitical rival to the USA the way China is. It makes zero sense to enrich your biggest opponent.

(4) More importantly, cheap consumer goods and trade volume should not be the objective of public policy. Surpluses or at least the elimination of deficits should be. The revival of American industry should be. Why? Because irrespective of consumer good prices, consumption of US goods enrich US companies and US workers which then pay US taxes, consume US services and buy more US goods. This feeds growth and prosperity back into the US economy. Sending money to another country for cheap stuff simply BLEEDS the US economy and enriches our rivals and enemies.

(5) If you believe that a $19 trillion economy cannot do without $120 billion in exports to China, you are delusional. If you believe that $540 billion in imports cannot be replaced with domestic manufacture or alternative imports, you are simply silly. The show down with China is long overdue, and there is no reason a country which buys 5 times as much as it sells cannot win ANY trade war.

 

1.  That is because the world, also has an economy, not only the US, and does trade with China. The world, also produces trinkets, that makes Chinese cheap labour produce them. Remember, 'twas American greed that opened up that Pandora's box. China then, learned to build factories, and court the rest of the world to trade with her...

That is pure fear mongering on your part.  Albeit China is already a force to  be reckoned with, you as an American, who lived a very protective, rather safe life from invaders,  wealthy  but rather most wasteful wealth because the US was virtually the ONLY country intact and not devasted by WW2, the rest of the world DID catch up to US high living standards in economy and in education. All this time between WW2 and Id say early 1990s, the US was virtually untouchable.  But TRADE ROUTES with your allies like South Korea, West Germany allowed those countries to reach US high living standards, and with American Corporate greed allowed China to join those ranks. Because Germany united, South Korea started their own trade routes, and they too, started to trade with China...again, that Pandora's box was opened up by Reagan and Wallstreet NYC.

2.  Could very well be...but the US does the same thing.

The US over produces milk,  Wisconsin.  The US is miffed because Canada regulates its dairy production. The US wants to enter the Canadian market to sell over produced milk. The US wants to flood the Canadian market...that in turn will destroy the Canadian dairy farmers. So...the US reverts to strong tariffs for Canadian milk...

Same scenario with Canadian lumber

Same thing with the aviation industry.

It seems to me that the US wants to corner all industries with Canada and not let any Canadian industry flourish. 

Well...that is what happened with the rest of the world. The US has had this monopoly going on, but at the same time, countries also found a way to bypass US economic strongholds... 

Canada...does NOT want to ditch the US as a partner. Canada and the US share a huuuuuge border together which would be stupid for both countries to walk out on each other....but what incentive does US strogholding leave countries like Greece,  France, which dont share any borders with the US.

I mentioned Greece. Greece and the US were very strong allies during the 1950s and 1960s. But them the US saw another strong partner in Turkey and let go some of that frienship with Greece. THAT is why Greece does NOT really listen to the US anymore, and they quasi listen to Russia, a and China lately.

Going back to China.  Greece used to produce her own souvenir trinkets. They were of high quality. Now...like everyone else. China produces those. And they are of very low quality.

Greece was choked to death with Western economical realities...that caused Greece to go bankrupt. Well, if the US and other countries played nice and not wanting to choke Greece to death, Greece sold a percentage of her most biggest and prestigious ports, Piraeus to  China. And China has big big big plans for this port.  TRADE ROUTES my friend....

All to say...what is good for the goose....MUST be good for the gander. 

The US strongholds the world in the same way China does it...too damned bad for the US if China does...

I know its your country...but China looks after China just like the US looks after the US...

3. So much wrong in that one.

So...you advocate slave labour?  All for your insatiable need for overconsumption of trinkets?  

The US is in this predicament today BECAUSE of how they have conducted business the way YOU just described it...

And all these countries YOU described are not exactly 100% America's friend...

Shyte dude...you will cut your nose to spite your face...

Besides...I thought you said the US does NOT need these slave labour countries to produce America's need to overconsume...and on the cheap too...

So...you want Americans to be paid slave labour instead?

4.  Oh...but it is!!!

Blame American Corporate greed on this point. THAT would be an American soul searching change for your people to get off this addiction of overconsumption... This has nothing to do America's trading partners.  America's trading partner's are just supplying  your addictions on the cheap. YOUR Corporations  are the drug pushers pushing you to spend spend spend...A lot of your policies, voted in by YOUR levels of government have to do with policies regarding such a thing YOU described...

5.  While bringing back American factories to the US...would be a good thing. The Pandora's box has already been opened up. 

Thanx to the American way of life through American TV and movies, that good life...people no longer need to immigrate to the US...only the really really shytehole country's people want to...the world over now wants that life, in their homelands...and because their countries have education to where they too could build stuff, have jobs that they too could buy stuff, they want to buy stuff on the cheap...JUST like the US...

So...again...close YOUR doors to trade...the world WILL continue on trading with or without you...

Ive already mentioned scenarios in my other posts...

Your views are really short short sighted....

[ccap41]

I don't think "average at best" even has an opportunity to own a single casino let alone multiple casinos and resorts. 

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think "average at best" even has an opportunity to own a single casino let alone multiple casinos and resorts. 

American laws and banks to front him money is easy as baking a pie....ESPECIALLY in the high rolling, anything goes, greed infested 1980s...

Then there is this reality that he really does not own as much as he claims to own in his business endeavors...

Monies lent...until paid back...is owed by the banks.

There are partners, silent deals, that allow Trump to use his name on casinos and anything else he wants to slap his name on but does not have any real bearing on who really owns what and what percentage...

Truth be told...NOBODY knows the shenanigans Trump does with his name and his wealth...

He is a fantastic story telling magician.

He hides the truth very well and he gives us a great illusion to believe in. I got to give him props for that. 

[ccap41]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

$1.23 Trillion

Thats the amount is US debt OWNED by China.

$1.123T by China

$1.042T by Japan

China alone only hold 5.1% of US debt($22T).

Nobody ever mentions Japan... 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china-owns-us-debt-how-much.asp

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by ccap41
Added Link

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think "average at best" even has an opportunity to own a single casino let alone multiple casinos and resorts. 

Being handed wealth certainly gives someone a leg up.  It doesn't indicate any particular skill.  

In fact it has been shown multiple times that he'd have been a wealthier man if he had just parked his money into an index fund and left it alone rather than going on these various schemes.

[ccap41]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

Being handed wealth certainly gives someone a leg up.  It doesn't indicate any particular skill.  

In fact it has been shown multiple times that he'd have been a wealthier man if he had just parked his money into an index fund and left it alone rather than going on these various schemes.

It does. but convincing multiple banks for money they expect to get back with interest can't be done by "average at best" and everybody here knows that. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

It does. but convincing multiple banks for money they expect to get back with interest can't be done by "average at best" and everybody here knows that. 

If you already have lots of money, banks are very willing to give you more if you can show a business plan (in normal economic times, not recessions).  It's almost "fog a mirror and show your bank statements" level of easy. 

I doubt anyone would lend to him these days unless it was a vehicle for some other entity to launder money. 

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It does. but convincing multiple banks for money they expect to get back with interest can't be done by "average at best" and everybody here knows that. 

Banks dont lend him anymore money

Like I said...banks loaned him those monies in the freewilling 1980s...all the way to the loose standards of the mid 2000s...

Nothing worth going googoo gaagaa over...

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

if you can show a business plan

 

[oldshurst442]

@ccap41

banks loaned him those monies in the freewilling 1980s...all the way to the loose standards of the mid 2000s...

corrupt shyster lawyers and bankers with morally bankrupt businessmen go hand in hand...

[ccap41]

Somebody must still be throwing cash at him/his organization. They've built stuff as recent as 2016.

https://www.investopedia.com/updates/donald-trump-companies/

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

 

And? 

A Business plan can be downloaded from the internet.  You can even get a Casino template.  I highly highly highly doubt he has ever written one, rather he's had people do it for him.  Writing a business plan takes attention to detail and a long attention span. Neither of which he has ever demonstrated.  Even his own books were written for him by someone else. 

Just now, ccap41 said:

Somebody must still be throwing cash at him/his organization. They've built stuff as recent as 2016.

https://www.investopedia.com/updates/donald-trump-companies/

 

 

Deutchebank.... and they're getting subpoenaed over it because it looks like those loans were made without proper underwriting (read: they were money laundering).  

[G. David Felt]

10 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You have a point but it still flies in the face of Trump of being this super smart business man when he is average at best and sure as hell not some kind of “extremely stable genius”. I also refer to his other failures like his vodka venture that flopped fantastically despite the normal Trumpian fanfare. The man can’t even get US banks to front him money anymore. It’s why he owes China a crap ton of money. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302216-how-much-money-does-the-trump-organization-owe%3famp

I doubt he is a billionaire other than on paper as another reason he doesn't want to release his tax returns.

He only cares about what people perceive is him, not the real him.

Yet it would appear that he is running out of support for Tariffs as Many GOP are not aligning with him about putting tariffs on friends such as Mexico.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-threaten-revolt-may-block-trumps-mexico-tariffs/ar-AACoix1?li=BBnb7Kz

[oldshurst442]

21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And? 

A Business plan can be downloaded from the internet.  You can even get a Casino template.  I highly highly highly doubt he has ever written one, rather he's had people do it for him.  Writing a business plan takes attention to detail and a long attention span. Neither of which he has ever demonstrated.  Even his own books were written for him by someone else. 

Deutchebank.... and they're getting subpoenaed over it because it looks like those loans were made without proper underwriting (read: they were money laundering).  

Russian connections?

Chinese connections?

These accusations are always coming up. Speculation is all it is maybe to dirty his name by his detractors?

But he seems to have lots and lots of detractors though...

Id like to think of it as, where there is smoke, there is fire. 

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I doubt he is a billionaire other than on paper as another reason he doesn't want to release his tax returns.

Isn't that how every billionaire is? Nobody has that in cash. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Isn't that how every billionaire is? Nobody has that in cash. 

There is a difference between saying you're a billionaire because you have a couple billion in Amazon stock... stocks can be traded for cash.

What trump has done is bought a lot of properties and then grossly inflated the value of them... even though he probably couldn't get that amount for them today. At the same time, he depreciates the properties so they look like they're worthless for tax reasons.

 

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Isn't that how every billionaire is? Nobody has that in cash. 

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/11/07/warren-buffetts-109-billion-cash-problem-how-much.aspx

Warren Buffett has $109 Billion in cash, yes that is his investment firm yet considering how much of it he personally own's, makes him have considerable cash in the bank.

Based on this story, Bill Gates had about $4 Billion in cash in banks for quick access if needed. https://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/19/breaking-down-bill-gatess-wealth/

I would say that the REAL Billionaire's who have no problem being transparent and showing their wealth also have a good amount of cash sitting in banks for access to pay bills. For them $100 bill is like a penny to us.

 

Donald Trump talks as if he is a Billionaire, but reacts like a lying bully that really is living on a shoestring and keeps the masquerade up to fool the ignorant.

[ccap41]

I don't think anybody has put him in the status as those billionaires. If they have, they're pretty ignorant. 

Also, his net worth is $83.46B and yet he has $109B in cash on hand? Is it me or are those numbers alone not matching up? 

Edited June 5, 2019 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think anybody has put him in the status as those billionaires. If they have, they're pretty ignorant. 

Also, his net worth is 100.3B and yet he has 109B in cash on hand? Is it me or are those numbers alone not matching up? 

HELLO McFly, Anyone home?

As I stated above, that is his investment firm of which he is the principal and largest shareholder. One could say that he could take his ownership as cash if he wanted too. So that would be $83.46 billion based on the recent chart of Billionaires I posted above.

His investment firm is worth far more than that.

[ccap41]

The Bill Gates ratio of $100B net worth to $4B in cash makes way more sense.

If Trump had that same ratio his $3.1B estimated net worth would yield him about $124M in cash. 

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

HELLO McFly, Anyone home?

As I stated above, that is his investment firm of which he is the principal and largest shareholder. One could say that he could take his ownership as cash if he wanted too. So that would be $83.46 billion based on the recent chart of Billionaires I posted above.

His investment firm is worth far more than that.

So if you're adding in the firm's value(which seems odd one's net worth wouldn't be included), what are Trump's properties valued at? 

Warren Buffet is on another level. There is no doubt about that. The man knows what he is doing and he knows how the market is flowing better than probably anybody else.

[G. David Felt]

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The Bill Gates ratio of $100B net worth to $4B in cash makes way more sense.

If Trump had that same ratio his $3.1B estimated net worth would yield him about $124M in cash. 

So if you're adding in the firm's value(which seems odd one's net worth wouldn't be included), what are Trump's properties valued at? 

Warren Buffet is on another level. There is no doubt about that. The man knows what he is doing and he knows how the market is flowing better than probably anybody else.

I quotes only what the wall street journal, JD Powers and Motley Fool has stated for them.  The reason for the investment firm cash position is that is what they quoted in the stories about Billionaires net worth and how Warren Buffett is one of the few if only one that could take an all cash position for his net worth. I posted the link because like you, I would also question where one's net worth is lower than a stated cash position.