Cadillac News: 2020 Cadillac CT4-V and CT5-V Aren't As Powerful As Their Predecessors

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It matters not at all that Cadillac & Chevrolet are both under General Motors. This is where you continually trip yourself up. 'General Motors' is a far secondary to Cadillac and Chevrolet. Just like when Buick & Olds & Chevy & Pontiac all had mid-6 liter V8 muscle cars selling near 100K per year ('66 GTO) and pulling down a 54% market share, there is literally no reason 2 (or 3 or 4) brands cannot have performance cars. None. VW has Lambo, bugatti & porsche under the same corporate letterhead- where's the outcry there? Don't all 3 have some excellent performance cars; which is the "performance division" of VW?? Full-fledged & blatant hypocrisy.

It's exactly like saying only one division should have CUVs, and you've actually said the complete opposite there.

2 brand can have performance cars, but Cadillac should have the best performance cars at GM, then work your way down to the others.  

To use the VW example, Bugatti is $1 million plus, Lamborghini is $250k-$500k or whatever they cost, Porsche is $50k-$250k (baring a one off Carrera GT or 918 Hybrid).   Throw in Audi if you want but the R8 is not as fast as a Huracan and their SUVs or A8 aren't as fast as a Cayenne or Panamera.  They keep things in levels, it makes sense what they do.

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Chevrolet has no high performance SEDANS anymore...and that is worldwide too.  Chevrolet has got ONLY 2 two door coupe sports cars...1 that seats 4...more or less, and the other that only seats 2.  

Cadillac...yeah...Cadillac...I did say Cadillac, right? So as we dont confuse Chevrolet with Cadillac and sedans with coupes.

Cadillac....has got 3 high performance SEDANS and NO high performance coupes for sale. 

Problem is the market is now 50% SUV or more, maybe 25% car, 25% truck/van.  And SUV is growing the fastest of the 3 with car shrinking.    So performance SUV is what they need.  SUV is the battleground.

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

2 brand can have performance cars, but Cadillac should have the best performance cars at GM, then work your way down to the others.  

THAT is what works for zee Germans...

You see...Chevrolet does nicely in kicking German ass in THIS regard...(so does Cadillac with its former V cars...)

But Chevrolet has ALWAYS been a sporty brand...well, from the mid 1950s on...) 

There is NO reason why Chevy HAS to relinquish that...and there is NO reason why Chevy and Caddy could NOT co-exist in THIS department.

Actually, the former CTS V kicked the Chevy SS's ass...  So...what is your point?

The ATS-V versus the Camaro?   Yeah...well, the ATS-V needed a V8, true...but hey...the Camaro needs the speed.  

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

Problem is the market is now 50% SUV or more, maybe 25% car, 25% truck/van.  And SUV is growing the fastest of the 3 with car shrinking.    So performance SUV is what they need.  SUV is the battleground.

Yeah...so...what is your beef?

Chevrolet does not sell ANY high performance CUVs....Are you trying to change goal posts on me? 

Chevrolet CUVs are family haulers...  The fullsized stuff are workhorse/towing/family hauling/FBI/CIA vehicles.

Cadillac in the CUV/SUV department versus Chevrolet are world's apart...

You just wanna bitch about Cadillac. 

Listen...Mercedes is ONE brand under ONE corporation. 

General Motors has several brands.

VW was ALWAYS cheap shyte.   Chevrolet...always had trucks, sports cars. The Impala/Caprice/Kingswood is what the Passat wants to pass of as. But Chevrolet did that 30-35 years BEFORE VW did.  Chevy in 1958 with the Impala. Listen the Bel Air in 1957 actually...

Audi...well...Audi did the A8 that took Lambo's engine and forced itself unto Porsche and Lambo territory...

Lets us NOT forget that Porsche went down market SEVERAL times from the 1970s-1990s...not that the 911 was any luxury in the 1960s/1970s/1980s/1990s either...Actually, a handful of Porsches were DIRECT VW  engineered vehicles...more than a handful... especially today...the Porsche 914 was a VW in reality while the Cayenne is really a Veedub underneath...Oh...but that only is a no no for the Escalade...

The Bugatti...using Veedub engines glued together to power its cars?  THIS is what you want to sell me as Veedub separating its brands versus what GM does?

Listen...Im trolling here...but Im only using YOUR logic against YOU....because THAT is what YOU project unto GM yet you DONT do against the other foreign brands...

So no!  YOUR pattern of argument is NOT valid...because what YOU are arguing against GM, is what in fact...ALL manufacturers do....

YOUR argument is NULL and VOID.

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

2 brand can have performance cars, but Cadillac should have the best performance cars at GM, then work your way down to the others. 

Why; maybach has never had the best performing daimler cars.

[dwightlooi]

Let me make it VERY SIMPLE for you guys...

Imagine that VWs have better engines and better performance than Audi. How is that going to work?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

THAT is what works for zee Germans...

You see...Chevrolet does nicely in kicking German ass in THIS regard...(so does Cadillac with its former V cars...)

Why does Chevrolet kick Cadillac’s ass in performance?  Why would someone want to spend top dollar on a Cadillac only to get beat by a Chevy?   Cadillac is irreverent if Chevy is above them.

[surreal1272]

Chevrolet has not one sedan with better engines and performance than Cadillac. The only two cars outside of that comparison are the Vette and Camaro. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yeah...so...what is your beef?

Chevrolet does not sell ANY high performance CUVs....Are you trying to change goal posts on me?

 

My beef is the market wants crossovers.  The market didn’t say they don’t want performance or sporty vehicles, but they do want crossover/SUV whichever you want to call it.  So GM, and mainly Cadillac, needs performance SUV’s.

37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Why; maybach has never had the best performing daimler cars.

Maybach version 1 and 2 failed also, 3rd time seems to be the charm, although the early 2000s Maybachs had 600 hp, there was no shortage of power.  But that is also a chauffeur driven car too.

[oldshurst442]

41 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Let me make it VERY SIMPLE for you guys...

Imagine that VWs have better engines and better performance than Audi. How is that going to work?

Stop the condescending tone, dude...

You aint as smart as you try to act like you are...

Audi engines....ARE VW engines...
Even Bugatti's W16 is based on VW's VR6 design.....which Volkswagen engineered anyway...

And it ONLY makes sense since Volkswagen and Audi and a host of other brands is under the Volkswagen Group umbrella indirectly owned by the  Porsche family who have the majority voting rights in the company...

And it only makes sense since its expensive as hell to have every brand  engineer its own engines. To have bespoke engines for every model in every brand.

VAG...for the most part...puts corporate engines with different tunes in their models and brands....not much different to what GM does...

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Why does Chevrolet kick Cadillac’s ass in performance?  Why would someone want to spend top dollar on a Cadillac only to get beat by a Chevy?   Cadillac is irreverent if Chevy is above them.

Why is that a detriment?  Only in YOUR mind it is.   

Corvette HAS to outperform its competition or come close to it...when price tags are concerned. 

Cadillac need not sell its Vs under that premise.   There is no need to outperform the competition for Cadillac. But there is a need for AMG and M to do so...

Vs could get by to equal their competiton...no need to win N-Ring times.  AMG and M buyers will NEVER consider Cadillac either way...BUT...when Chevy kicks their ass, they get embarrassed....

Cadillac is also part of the GM umbrella...and like I said...Chevroler sells NO high performance SEDANS.

Only 2 two door sports cars.  Cadillac has NO two door coupes in their line-up anymore...

SO you've moved the bar...now its high performance CUVs...but Chevy sells none of that either...

As far as GM's CUV/SUV goes...Between Chevy and Buick and GMC and Cadillac...all their CUVs and SUVs are worlds apart from each other.

Denali Yukon and Escalade are similar, but sooooooo different at the same time...

GM has done an excellent job of distiguishing their CUVs and SUVs. There are some in here that bitch about that, but in reality, GM's CUVs and SUVs are well distinguished from one another. 

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Let me make it VERY SIMPLE for you guys...

Imagine that VWs have better engines and better performance than Audi. How is that going to work?

You don’t think it would make sense for VW to sell a $135,000 sports car while a top Audi is around $100k?   ?  They can call it Phaeton 2.

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Stop the condescending tone, dude...

You aint as smart as you try to act like you are...

Audi engines....ARE VW engines...
Even Bugatti's W16 is based on VW's VR6 design.....which Volkswagen engineered anyway...

And it ONLY makes sense since Volkswagen and Audi and a host of other brands is under the Volkswagen Group umbrella indirectly owned by the  Porsche family who have the majority voting rights in the company...

And it only makes sense since its expensive as hell to have every brand  engineer its own engines. To have bespoke engines for every model in every brand.

VAG...for the most part...puts corporate engines with different tunes in their models and brands....not much different to what GM does...

Why is that a detriment?  Only in YOUR mind it is.   

Corvette HAS to outperform its competition or come close to it...when price tags are concerned. 

Cadillac need not sell its Vs under that premise.   There is no need to outperform the competition for Cadillac. But there is a need for AMG and M to do so...

Vs could get by to equal their competiton...no need to win N-Ring times.  AMG and M buyers will NEVER consider Cadillac either way...BUT...when Chevy kicks their ass, they get embarrassed....

The Corvette has a dime store interior.

But not sure why Corvette must beat competition but Cadillac does not have to.  Maybe that is why Cadillac is a mess.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette has a dime store interior.

But not sure why Corvette must beat competition but Cadillac does not have to.  Maybe that is why Cadillac is a mess.

Corvette also sells for a price tag worthy of its powertrain...ONLY its powertrain...Corvette is NOT about fancy interiors.  Porsche and the 911...was not about fancy interiors either.  They decided to go that way...

But you know what?  The track focused 911s have dime store interiors too...but Porsche GOUGES its customers.  They TAKE AWAY shyte and the price tag goes up and the 911 guys just lube up their butt and take it! 

You dont know why Corvette HAS to beat or at least equal its 2-3-4 times its price competition?

Are you for real? 

STOP TROLLING!!!

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Stop the condescending tone, dude...

You aint as smart as you try to act like you are...

Audi engines....ARE VW engines...
Even Bugatti's W16 is based on VW's VR6 design.....which Volkswagen engineered anyway...

And it ONLY makes sense since Volkswagen and Audi and a host of other brands is under the Volkswagen Group umbrella indirectly owned by the  Porsche family who have the majority voting rights in the company...

And it only makes sense since its expensive as hell to have every brand  engineer its own engines. To have bespoke engines for every model in every brand.

VAG...for the most part...puts corporate engines with different tunes in their models and brands....not much different to what GM does...

Why is that a detriment?  Only in YOUR mind it is.   

Corvette HAS to outperform its competition or come close to it...when price tags are concerned. 

Cadillac need not sell its Vs under that premise.   There is no need to outperform the competition for Cadillac. But there is a need for AMG and M to do so...

Vs could get by to equal their competiton...no need to win N-Ring times.  AMG and M buyers will NEVER consider Cadillac either way...BUT...when Chevy kicks their ass, they get embarrassed....

Cadillac is also part of the GM umbrella...and like I said...Chevroler sells NO high performance SEDANS.

Only 2 two door sports cars.  Cadillac has NO two door coupes in their line-up anymore...

SO you've moved the bar...now its high performance CUVs...but Chevy sells none of that either...

As far as GM's CUV/SUV goes...Between Chevy and Buick and GMC and Cadillac...all their CUVs and SUVs are worlds apart from each other.

Denali Yukon and Escalade are similar, but sooooooo different at the same time...

GM has done an excellent job of distiguishing their CUVs and SUVs. There are some in here that bitch about that, but in reality, GM's CUVs and SUVs are well distinguished from one another. 

 

He also forgets that VW has pulled that crap before. Did Audi have a V12 sedan in the US when VW sold the Phaeton? Nope. The top of the line A8 didn’t even have that option and VW explicitly targeted Benz and BMW in marketing and sales of it. The point is GM is not the only guilty of throwing around the old performance game. 

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette has a dime store interior.

But not sure why Corvette must beat competition but Cadillac does not have to.  Maybe that is why Cadillac is a mess.

Trolling 101 when you clearly don’t understand the history of the Vette. 

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You don’t think it would make sense for VW to sell a $135,000 sports car while a top Audi is around $100k?   ?  They can call it Phaeton 2.

See my post above. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by surreal1272

[dwightlooi]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

My beef is the market wants crossovers.  The market didn’t say they don’t want performance or sporty vehicles, but they do want crossover/SUV whichever you want to call it.  So GM, and mainly Cadillac, needs performance SUV’s.

CORRECT! Which is why I advocate:-

(1) Putting the 310hp / 348 lb-ft 2.7T Four Banger from the Silverado and CT4-V in the XT4 as an upgrade engine.

(2) Putting a 420 hp / 420 lb-ft version of the 2.7T Four Banger in the XT4-V.

The Lanchester balanced engine is plenty smooth actually. And, it has the Tri-power valvetrain with 2-cylinder, low lift and high lift modes in addition to variable cam phasing and start-stop support. And, from a cost standpoint, it has exactly the same component count and architecture as the 237hp 2.0T four banger and is basically the same cost. Whatever GM charges for this upgrade engine, it's pure additional profit.

Edited June 8, 2019 by dwightlooi

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

You dont know why Corvette HAS to beat or at least equal its 2-3-4 times its price competition?

It doesn’t.  If the Corvette was faster (all around better performance) than a Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, Shelby Mustang, etc and is the fastest Chevy and can do that in the $50-90k range then it has achieved its mission.

Let Cadillac worry about Porsche, Aston Martin, Bentley or whoever else.  And I am not really saying slow down the Vette, I am saying Cadillac should build a car that out performs the current C7 ZO6 but with Escalade Platinum level of luxury.

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

He also forgets that VW has pulled that crap before. Did Audi have a V12 sedan in the US when VW sold the Phaeton? Nope. The top of the line A8 didn’t even have that option and VW explicitly targeted Benz and BMW in marketing and sales of it. 

The 2004 Phaeton had a 420 hp W12.  The A8 in 2005 got its optional engines (it was V8 only in 2004 as it was a new model).  The A8 got a 444 hp W12 and a 450 hp V8 from the Lamborghini Gallardo.  So the A8 has 2 engines better than the Phaeton at the time they were on sale together.

4 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

CORRECT! Which is why I advocate:-

(1) Putting the 310hp / 348 lb-ft 2.7T Four Banger from the Silverado and CT4-V in the XT4 as an upgrade engine.

(2) Putting a 420 hp / 420 lb-ft version of the 2.7T Four Banger in the XT4-V.

The Lanchester balanced engine is plenty smooth actually. And, it has the Tri-power valvetrain with 2-cylinder, low lift and high lift modes in addition to variable cam phasing and start-stop support. And, from a cost standpoint, it has exactly the same component count and architecture as the 237hp 2.0T four banger and is basically the same cost. Whatever GM charges for this upgrade engine, it's pure additional profit.

As mid-range models sure.  But the Blackwing V8 should be in the XT5 and XT6 which means making them rear drive. 

[Robert Hall]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

 But the Blackwing V8 should be in the XT5 and XT6 which means making them rear drive. 

Which I doubt would never happen..GM likes those generic FWD/transverse engine CUVs so they can use the same platform for multiple models at 4 brands.  I can't imagine them doing transverse V8 again, but they do have a history of that. 

[riviera74]

13 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Which I doubt would never happen..GM likes those generic FWD/transverse engine CUVs so they can use the same platform for multiple models at 4 brands.  I can't imagine them doing transverse V8 again, but they do have a history of that. 

Transverse V8.  Just like the Northstar of the last decade.

GM still needs more RWD models so that the Blackwing V8 can be used in more models, like a TRUE CT4-V (something) and a TRUE CT5-V (something) and a top of the line CT6. 

Question: Could a Corvette use the Blackwing V8 or does it already have a near equivalent?

[oldshurst442]

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Let Cadillac worry about Porsche, Aston Martin, Bentley or whoever else.  And I am not really saying slow down the Vette, I am saying Cadillac should build a car that out performs the current C7 ZO6 but with Escalade Platinum level of luxury

 But wait...there is more

 

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Aston Martin, Bentley or whoever else

It seems to me that...ASTON MARTIN WENT DOWNMARKET since Corvette was racing a LOOOOONG time BEFORE Aston Martin...JUST for Aston MArtin to try to beat...CORVETTE RACING...

What the phoque are you smolking? Quit it...its frying your brain...

[Robert Hall]

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

It seems to me that...ASTON MARTIN WENT DOWNMARKET since Corvette was racing a LOOOOONG time BEFORE Aston Martin...JUST for Aston MArtin to try to beat...CORVETTE RACING...

What the phoque are you smolking? Quit it...its frying your brain...

 

Actually, Aston Martin has a history in racing going back in the 40s...and won LeMans in 1959 w/ Carroll Shelby...  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_DB3

Edited June 8, 2019 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

BS... Aston Martin was in racing back in the 40s...and won LeMans in 1959 w/ Carroll Shelby...  get your facts straight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_DB3

But they stopped...

And good while too...

And decided to come back to racing...when Dodge...was already gone but was dominating and their dominance was ended when Corvette Racing joined up.   (Dodge and Chevrolet...)

And when Corvette Racing was dominating...only then did Aston Martin want to revisit their racing past...but they did not join the higher class. They wanted to join the GT class...Ferraris, Porsches, BMWs...where Dodge formely was and where Corvette still is...

Cadillac only by NAME is actually at the higher ranks...

So...even if by name only...is taking care of Aston Martin as Cadilac is one level higher...with the likes of...Renault and Nissan...(Renault and Nissan...hardly top tier luxury makes)

So while I was erroneous in my speech, but I wanted to showcase the 2000s.

Bottom line is....Aston Martin joined the ranks where a CHEVROLET is dominating...in the 2000s...

Chevrolet was ALWAYS racing compared to Cadillac. Its simply STUPID to say let Cadillac worry about Porsche, Aston MArtin just to leave Corvette out to hang...

HIS speech is helluva MORE erroneous than mine.

So...all this FAKE racing prestige that SMK likes to toot is exactly what Im gonna repeat to him...

LAY OF THE POT DUDE, ITS FRYING YOUR BRAIN...as in makes no difference in prestige who is racing who...it meant something once upon a time ago...now its just...there.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

Your comment made it sound like AM had no racing history at all.   And the comment about 'since Corvette was racing a LOOOOONG time BEFORE Aston Martin' is factually incorrect, since AM was racing before there ever was a Corvette.  Facts count.  

Anyway, participation in international racing does add a certain prestige or appeal to a brand, whether that conveys into tangible sales numbers is questionable, but it does have it's place.   

Edited June 8, 2019 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Aston-Martin brings up a pertinent example. The brand was a no-frills, spartan sports car all along. Guess they have no identity now that they have luxury-stuffed GT passenger cruisers,right? I mean, they can’t know what they want to be- that’s the diagnosis on any brand that shifts it’s product intent, right? Poor, poor Aston-Martin: here’s hoping they figure out their brand mission, hopefully by ‘going back to just being Aston-Martin’.

[Robert Hall]

I don’t think AM has any identity issues at all.  Luxury GTs remain their main niche, though they are expanding into mid engined supercars. 

[smk4565]

If Corvette is going to be the ultimate sports car, Porsche/Aston Martin/Ferrari fighter then the Corvette needs an interior to match.  The Corvette should have all the luxury and tech of a CT6 or Escalade.

And really this is all a moot point anyway because people aren't buying sports cars.  If GM had a 500 hp rear drive SUV that cost the same as a Corvette, the SUV would outsell it 3 to 1.  Porsche and Lamborghini sell more SUVs than sports cars, and their mission is sports cars.  I the Ferrari Purosangue is the #1 selling Ferrari next year.

[Robert Hall]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 And really this is all a moot point anyway because people aren't buying sports cars.  If GM had a 500 hp rear drive SUV that cost the same as a Corvette, the SUV would outsell it 3 to 1.  Porsche and Lamborghini sell more SUVs than sports cars, and their mission is sports cars.  I the Ferrari Purosangue is the #1 selling Ferrari next year.

Problem is if GM were to build something like that it would take too long to come to market (5 years from now?) and when it did the market will have moved on to the Next Big Thing... like the mid engined Corvette, which may be coming for model year 2020 when it should have been out 20-30 years ago if GM had wanted to play in that niche.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

*as a contrast to the current commentary WRT Cadillac/ it’s identity/ “trying to be German”.

[Robert Hall]

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

*as a contrast to the current commentary WRT Cadillac/ it’s identity/ “trying to be German”.

They have tried being an international product and sell abroad for years now, but it just doesn't seem to work.   

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The 2004 Phaeton had a 420 hp W12.  The A8 in 2005 got its optional engines (it was V8 only in 2004 as it was a new model).  The A8 got a 444 hp W12 and a 450 hp V8 from the Lamborghini Gallardo.  So the A8 has 2 engines better than the Phaeton at the time they were on sale together.

As mid-range models sure.  But the Blackwing V8 should be in the XT5 and XT6 which means making them rear drive. 

Stop it. The Phaeton was still basically an A8 parallel and was literally marketed as a luxury limo so VW was just as guilty of middling into Audi territory as you as accusing GM of doing. That’s my point and none of your bar moving changes that. Oh and the W12 A8 came out at the same time as the W12 Phaeton. In other words, they were pretty much the exact same car. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@smk4565—While you harp about Chevy having sportcars with all the horsepower, weren’t you on this site just the other day propping up a $2 million Mercedes hypercar? I only bring it up because I don’t see that kind of car coming to the Maybach lineup. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

48 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

They have tried being an international product and sell abroad for years now, but it just doesn't seem to work.   

Many international markets are nationalistic. A tangent to ‘Cadillacs definition’; whether on point or adrift, Cadillac has not ever had big international success (China excepted). It’s well tailored to the U.S..

[surreal1272]

(Goes to the Maybach webpage, doesn’t see any Hyper cars or sport cars and sees a glorified S Class being marketed like a Rolls Royce. Thinking of starting a thread deriding Daimler’s dilution of the Maybach brand and how they don’t have a real plan after all these years). 

 

 

[smk4565]

28 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Stop it. The Phaeton was still basically an A8 parallel and was literally marketed as a luxury limo so VW was just as guilty of middling into Audi territory as you as accusing GM of doing. That’s my point and none of your bar moving changes that. Oh and the W12 A8 came out at the same time as the W12 Phaeton. In other words, they were pretty much the exact same car. 

And the lesser badge failed.  Exactly my point.

And Maybach is a "luxury" trim level, it is not about performance it is about being chauffeured around in comfort.  AMG is performance.  Clearly defined roles with clear mission.  The problem Cadillac has, it is there is no clear mission, for the past 20 years.

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And the lesser badge failed.  Exactly my point.

And Maybach is a "luxury" trim level, it is not about performance it is about being chauffeured around in comfort.  AMG is performance.  Clearly defined roles with clear mission.  The problem Cadillac has, it is there is no clear mission, for the past 20 years.

“Luxury trim level”? What’s this? Their third attempt at trying to market Maybach here? They tried to play with Rolls Royce in the early 2000s and got their hand slapped for pushing out these glorified S Class cars and Daimler pulled the plug. They tried yet again to market them against the big boys and the plug was pulled yet again. Now Daimler thinks they can do the exact same thing but just call it a “luxury” trim level is the already supposedly luxury S Class?

 

Do you see where this is going yet or does it need to be spelled out for you? You spend day after day going after GM and Cadillac while maybe uttering two words about the even bigger debacle known as Maybach. It’s kind of old at this point. 

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

“Luxury trim level”? What’s this? Their third attempt at trying to market Maybach here? They tried to play with Rolls Royce in the early 2000s and got their hand slapped for pushing out these glorified S Class cars and Daimler pulled the plug. They tried yet again to market them against the big boys and the plug was pulled yet again. Now Daimler thinks they can do the exact same thing but just call it a “luxury” trim level is the already supposedly luxury S Class?

 

Do you see where this is going yet or does it need to be spelled out for you? You spend day after day going after GM and Cadillac while maybe uttering two words about the even bigger debacle known as Maybach. It’s kind of old at this point. 

Maybach stopped making cars in in WWII when they got converted to make tank engines like many automakers of the time quit building cars.  Then after the war car production never restarted.   The 2nd attempt was that 2002-2012 era with the car built on the W140 chassis which was older than the W220 S-class which made no sense.  The trim level is their 3rd attempt and seems to be working since they are launching a Maybach GLS this year, and a Maybach G-wagen seems like a no brainer and would make more sense than an AMG G-wagen.

Cadillac launching a luxury sub brand could be a good idea for them.  V-series hasn't really helped the cause, as they are still in a sales rut and they cancelled the STS-V, XLR-V, ATS-V and CTS-V in favor of a couple 320-350 hp "V-series" cars to sell at a discount.  The luxury route could be a better direction, especially since we know the mid-engine Corvette is GM's performance champ and Cadillac isn't getting a version of it.  Given the the new level of V-series and the markets thirst for SUVS, super lux SUVs is probably the way to go.  GMC has Denali, I don't see why Cadillac can't have Brougham and take $20k onto every model for an interior upgrade.

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Maybach stopped making cars in in WWII when they got converted to make tank engines like many automakers of the time quit building cars.  Then after the war car production never restarted.   The 2nd attempt was that 2002-2012 era with the car built on the W140 chassis which was older than the W220 S-class which made no sense.  The trim level is their 3rd attempt and seems to be working since they are launching a Maybach GLS this year, and a Maybach G-wagen seems like a no brainer and would make more sense than an AMG G-wagen.

Cadillac launching a luxury sub brand could be a good idea for them.  V-series hasn't really helped the cause, as they are still in a sales rut and they cancelled the STS-V, XLR-V, ATS-V and CTS-V in favor of a couple 320-350 hp "V-series" cars to sell at a discount.  The luxury route could be a better direction, especially since we know the mid-engine Corvette is GM's performance champ and Cadillac isn't getting a version of it.  Given the the new level of V-series and the markets thirst for SUVS, super lux SUVs is probably the way to go.  GMC has Denali, I don't see why Cadillac can't have Brougham and take $20k onto every model for an interior upgrade.

Thanks for proving my point. (Notices bar being kicked once again as different standards are applied to Daimler vs. GM). 

[balthazar]

The ‘first attempt’ with maybach had zero to do with Mercedes; they were competitors. The company failed and Daimler merely bought the rights to the name- there is no connection to the prewar company. Factually speaking, this is the 2nd attempt. 

That said, as it is marketed as a ‘mercedes maybach’, it certainly is lacking the ubiquitous AMG version every other model down to the shit box econocars have. Why? “People have money, just build it, margins would be huge”.

[smk4565]

50 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The ‘first attempt’ with maybach had zero to do with Mercedes; they were competitors. The company failed and Daimler merely bought the rights to the name- there is no connection to the prewar company. Factually speaking, this is the 2nd attempt. 

That said, as it is marketed as a ‘mercedes maybach’, it certainly is lacking the ubiquitous AMG version every other model down to the $h! box econocars have. Why? “People have money, just build it, margins would be huge”.

Well true to the first point, Wilhelm Maybach worked for Daimler and went out on his own and the company didn't make it.  Much like probably half the car companies in the 1920s, 1930s, etc, that didn't make it.  

You can't have an AMG version of a Maybach, that wouldn't make sense.   It is one or the other.  Although AMG builds the Maybach S650 engine, but that engine is dying.  

If Buick has Avenir, and GMC has Denali, I don't see why Cadillac couldn't get something similar.  

[surreal1272]

@smk4565You also missed the point about my Phaeton reference. GM never did and still has not done that. Chevrolet hasn’t had one sedan with more engine and more performance than Cadillac. Go ahead and say that they do with the Camaro and Corvette but that would only be applicable if Cadillac had a sports car. Hell, I think Benz is more guilty of mixing up their message.  

“Hey, if want luxury, buy this Mercedes”

”If you want luxury, but this Maybach”

 

Which one is really luxury?

Edited June 8, 2019 by surreal1272

[riviera74]

Actually, I like the Brougham idea.  I believe that most Cadillacs sold now have a Platinum trim level that matches or exceeds Avenir or Denali at the moment.  Maybe Platinum should be the sub-brand.

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565You also missed the point about my Phaeton reference. GM never did and still has not done that. Chevrolet hasn’t had one sedan with more engine and more performance than Cadillac. Go ahead and say that they do with the Camaro and Corvette but that would only be applicable if Cadillac had a sports car. Hell, I think Benz is more guilty of mixing up their message.  

“Hey, if want luxury, buy this Mercedes”

”If you want luxury, but this Maybach”

 

Which one is really luxury?

Problem is Cadillac has no sports car, no grand touring coupe, no convertible, nothing.  The only aspirational product they have is the Escalade, and not everyone wants a massive truck.

People on this board love Denali, because it a big profit maker for GMC.  Yet Mercedes uses the same strategy and it is a bad idea?  At least Mercedes reserves Maybach for top of the line product, where as GMC would Denali trim anything.

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Actually, I like the Brougham idea.  I believe that most Cadillacs sold now have a Platinum trim level that matches or exceeds Avenir or Denali at the moment.  Maybe Platinum should be the sub-brand.

Except Nissan and Ford have Platinum trim cars, so "Platinum" means crap.  No one else has "Denali" that is ubiquitous with GMC.  If Cadillac had a "Brougham" trim for CT6, Escalade, the Eldorado they should be building, whatever EV they come out with, XT6, etc they can build that brand equity and cache like GMC has done with Denali.  I wouldn't put Brougham on any CT5/XT5 or lower however, I would reserve it for the top half of the line up.

[dwightlooi]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If Corvette is going to be the ultimate sports car, Porsche/Aston Martin/Ferrari fighter then the Corvette needs an interior to match.  The Corvette should have all the luxury and tech of a CT6 or Escalade.

And really this is all a moot point anyway because people aren't buying sports cars.  If GM had a 500 hp rear drive SUV that cost the same as a Corvette, the SUV would outsell it 3 to 1.  Porsche and Lamborghini sell more SUVs than sports cars, and their mission is sports cars.  I the Ferrari Purosangue is the #1 selling Ferrari next year.

GM does not have a 500hp SUV and all the major models (Yukon, Tahoe/Suburban) already outsell the Corvette 3:1 so what's your point?

A 500hp RWD SUV is neither fast nor particularly high on the utility quotient (lacking AWD).

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Your comment made it sound like AM had no racing history at all.   And the comment about 'since Corvette was racing a LOOOOONG time BEFORE Aston Martin' is factually incorrect, since AM was racing before there ever was a Corvette.  Facts count.  

Anyway, participation in international racing does add a certain prestige or appeal to a brand, whether that conveys into tangible sales numbers is questionable, but it does have it's place.   

I agree...I was erroneous in my comment.

I disagree...about racing.

Most brands today are in some form of racing.  Toyota is "racing" the Camry...  By that same token, Ford is/was "racing" the Fusion.  (NASCAR)

If Renault was to sell calls in North America, would you or anybody else give a shyte about Renault's involvement with the 24 HR race at Lemans and anyother IMSA raceway...

Nissan...Nissan is involved in the exact same way Renault is... do any of us really care about Nissan's racing? 

Are we honestly aware that Nissan races in a higher category than Corvette Racing?

Does Nissan's involvement really help those North American sales of Sentras and Rogues, or is Nissan's cheap leases the reason for all these sales?

I will agree that for SOME brands, any form of racing does help image.

Ferrari

Dodge for Drag Racing....HEMIs go a loooong way in the NHRA.

Chevy is , NHRA drag, IMSA, NHRA

Ford in NASCAR, IMSA with the Ford GT

Mazda in autocross courses with their Miata...

 

All this to say...Lamborghini does NO racing...

Audi does, BMW does.  But how  does those racing efforts do for them?

For @smk4565 to say that Cadillac is best to do battle with Aston Martin and Porsche is asinine.   

Chevy and its Corvette NEED to go racing in the GT class WITH Ferrari, Porsche.

Im not so sure Aston Martin needs this as much as they think they do. But Ill tell you one thing. They thought beating Ferrari, Porsche and Corvette is a status for them. 

I dont think Aston Martin customers care all that much. I think Aston Martin CEOs care more.

But that is the thing...when a prestigious marque like Aston Martin cares enough to try to beat Corvettes...its good for Corvette.

When Porsche the company and the owners  and Ferrari the company and the owners get flustered when they cant beat Corvette and go all out to beat Corvette at IMSA...its GREAT for Corvette.

I dont think BMW, Aston Martin owners care if BMW or Aston Martin wins or loses.

I do think that potential Corvette buyers in Europe care for IMSA wins.  Not so much for the American market though...

Cadillac potential owners in China, Europe and in the US couldnt give two shytes about racing...

 

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Didnt Cadillac have a Biarritz trim that did what ya'll are clamouring for Cadillac to do?

I would want that too, but I also want Cadillac NOT to sell vehicles below a certain price point.  In fact, I prefer they stop selling vehicles below the 50 000 dollar threshold over a Biarritz/Avenir/Denali/ higher trim nameplate...

And NO to the idea of a sub brand higher than Cadillac.

Cadillac is...CADILLAC. Point finale.   

A higher trim...yes...but not a sub brand.   Lets first start by  nixing the vehicles in those price points that are NOT befitting of the Cadillac name and then everything else.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Problem is Cadillac has no sports car, no grand touring coupe, no convertible, nothing.  The only aspirational product they have is the Escalade, and not everyone wants a massive truck.

People on this board love Denali, because it a big profit maker for GMC.  Yet Mercedes uses the same strategy and it is a bad idea?  At least Mercedes reserves Maybach for top of the line product, where as GMC would Denali trim anything.

And the bar gets kicked over once again. From your “platinum” excuse to this sports cars nonsense, the only one who seems that “concerned” about it is you. And funny how you bring up GMCs use of Denali when Mercedes is whoring the AMG name like they’re working a Vegas street corner. More of that fanboy hypocrisy showing. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Didnt Cadillac have a Biarritz trim that did what ya'll are clamouring for Cadillac to do?

I would want that too, but I also want Cadillac NOT to sell vehicles below a certain price point.  In fact, I prefer they stop selling vehicles below the 50 000 dollar threshold over a Biarritz/Avenir/Denali/ higher trim nameplate...

And NO to the idea of a sub brand higher than Cadillac.

Cadillac is...CADILLAC. Point finale.   

A higher trim...yes...but not a sub brand.   Lets first start by  nixing the vehicles in those price points that are NOT befitting of the Cadillac name and then everything else.

 

I just learned that Biarritz is just a way to say convertible...(only in 1976 was Biarritz a high end trim level offering...) 

While Brougham was to designate hardtop.

I think the high end trim I was looking for is "Series 62" and/or "d'Elegance"?  

@balthazar   Please set me straight. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Didnt Cadillac have a Biarritz trim that did what ya'll are clamouring for Cadillac to do?

I would want that too, but I also want Cadillac NOT to sell vehicles below a certain price point.  In fact, I prefer they stop selling vehicles below the 50 000 dollar threshold over a Biarritz/Avenir/Denali/ higher trim nameplate...

And NO to the idea of a sub brand higher than Cadillac.

Cadillac is...CADILLAC. Point finale.   

A higher trim...yes...but not a sub brand.   Lets first start by  nixing the vehicles in those price points that are NOT befitting of the Cadillac name and then everything else.

 

Yes they but this is the only Biarritz that’ll ever matter to me. 

 

[oldshurst442]

I also love the '57 Eldorado Biarritz and place it high on my list as the '59