Thank the media/insiders for this...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Focus Fanatics

This is a guy shopping Honda for a new car.

I'm not sure if you have to be registered to read this or not, but here it is:

For a bit of fun today I decided to go have a look at a number of cars and get a few test drives in. I drive the Caliber, which sits a lot higher than it looks, the Toyota Yaris, and the Honda Civic. Now I have never been a fan of Honda cars, but the new Civic really caught my eye.

Anyway the base model is 15k, around the same price as teh Yaris, and more expensive than the Caliber. But what is amazing is how much is missing from the car. The windows are auto, but the mirrors and locks are not, in fact you have to roll down the window and play with the mirrors to adjust them. Oh and it does not include AC or stereo. But it does have spots all over the car that hide speakers that are probably not there. I was told the reason for no stereo is because people like to install their own custom stereos.

You know if I am paying 15k for a car I should expect a stereo and AC, I mean the base Focus has these things. Granted you do get 8 airbags in the car. But you get a super bare bones car. Oh, and if you want AC in the Civic its a 2k addon, which happens to be the next model up, and you get the stereo. I can't beleive people accept this kind of crap for the name Honda.

So, we have to be bombarded all the damn time with articles asking WHY an Escalade doesn't have a button for this and an automatic that. AND even articles QUESTIONING THE CADILLAC REVIVAL BASED ON THIS STUPIDITY and then get to listen to them whining about a Fusion not having navigation...etc...etc...etc...

Yet, a car that NOT only doesn't come standard with A/C but also is ABSENT a radio gets their coveted NORTH AMERICAN CAR OF THE YEAR AWARD?!?!?!?!

Last time I checked... BOTH of those were pretty RELEVANT standard equipment even for the Civic class and ESPECIALLY for the "premium image" (READ: Bull$h! groupthink) that the Civic is supposed to offer.

Talk about a twofaced bunch.

In Social Psychology we are taught that a certain stereotype exists and that the world is effected by it in every way. This stereotype is called "What is beautiful is good" and has a very strong basis in ALL of the Disney movies and fairytales of yore. So, that said, I guess 'we' here at C&G can coin the phrase "What is Asian is good" and then 'we' can study it and talk about how deeply it is seated in the FAIRYTALE and FICTION that is published in automotive press everyday.

The bias has reached the point of being a joke IMO.... It's sad that more people can't see it and that MOST of the biased people are willing to sellout this badly.

[deftonesfan867]

Wow, thats....wow. If the dude is telling the truth then thats major BS to ask someone to pay 15k for a car w/ no stereo or a/c. Something i can get in Cobalt for less than that.

[Dragon]

big freakin deal. A lot of those things don't come standard on many cars, including the Cobalt, Corolla or 3.

No $h! he got a lot in his Focus, its an older design that needs extra standard features to attract buyers over newer, "better" cars

[Satty]

The AC I dont have a huge issue with, a lot of base level cars dont have it standard, but not having a radio standard (which I had to look up, but yes, its true) doesn't sit well with me. At least throw an AM/FM cheapie in there.

[Camino LS6]

2k for A/C?

Should be standard on everything.

[balthazar]

This is a prime illustration of the 'impending doom' of the auto industry.

Every car, no matter the price, is "supposed" to have a full-range of features standard, including but in no way limited to such incidentals as power mirrors. It's ridiculous!

>>"you have to roll down the window and play with the mirrors to adjust them."<<

Big GD freaking deal! Stop F-ing whining about it, do it, and again: shut up!

"So many" want to be "in control" of their car (read: manual trans) but they can barely be expected to close their own doors or adjust their own steering wheel. The irony fairly drips...

This reminds me of the thread about the "death" of the V-8; no one seems to realize the differences between tiers is steadily shrinking... therefore a theory can be made for the future 'novelty' status of the luxury car, because the defining features are increasingly becoming intangibles and invisibles.

[CARBIZ]

Gawd knows I would be loathe to defend the media, but I doubt any of them would be caught dead in a base Civic anyway.

Which brings me to my biggest beef about the automotive media: they despise anything that they themselves wouldn't drive. So, yeah - they do bitch about lack of DVD navigation (who the HELL needs that anyway?) in a $15k car, and how many speeds an automatic has because THEY have decided that is important.

BTW, the Civic doesn't even have a split folding rear seat! As I have said many times, by focusing on what the media deems important, the Asian imports have succeeded.

Automatic headlights, delayed locks, retained accessory power, power trunk on keyless remote (Corolla?) and a host of other features that are important to the consumer in every day driving, get nary a nod from the media nazis, but they gush and swoon over 0-60 times on a $14k car!

That is the trouble with a lot of GM's cars: when people live with them for a week or so, they discover that "hey, this vehicle is pretty good and has a lot of features that are nice - WTF is CR talking about?"

[siegen]

I know my local dealers don't have any real base model Civic's, they all have options of some sort. It's probably just a marketting ploy so they can say they have a lower MSRP. I doubt very many dealers actually buy 100% base model Civic's to put on their lot. People might order them that way, with the intention of driving to the nearest cartoys to have a killer Alpine sound system installed or something like that.

[DetroitNut90]

I can get a navigation system for $2K. Why should Honda expect me to pay that much for a $500ish a/c system?

[siegen]

GM's cars: when people live with them for a week or so, they discover that "hey, this vehicle is pretty good and has a lot of features that are nice - WTF is CR talking about?"

Now if that were really true, don't you think more people would drive them?

[NOS2006]

Who the hell would buy a radio-less vehicle? Seriously?!

[Satty]

Who the hell would buy a radio-less vehicle? Seriously?!

Especially for fifteen grand. Before I bought the Solara, I looked at some previous-gen Civics, and for $13k and change you could get a value edition with a cd player and AC. I wonder if it even comes prepped for a stereo or if the buyer has to buy the radio and do all of the wiring, etc.

[CARBIZ]

Siegen, that's the point: the biased media are telling people NOT to bother with GM because [insert pet peeve here]. EVERY time I drive a client in a Cobalt and a Corolla back to back they are STUNNED. They literally are speechless. They can't understand why the Corolla would get such rave reviews.

The Civic is rapidly pricing itself out of the market. I've had customers tell me that they've left the Honda dealer because all they do is bash GM and get nasty when the client wants to shop other makes.

I think HOnda and Toyota are where GM was 20 years ago.

[thegriffon]

Since wehn does a Corolla get rave reviews, except for reliability. It's like driving a Maytag.

[cmattson]

Maytags are overrated, IMO. Hey, what a coincidence..

[Camino LS6]

I bet Maytag is a CR "Best Pick" :AH-HA_wink:

[Polish_Kris]

The bias has reached the point of being a joke IMO.... It's sad that more people can't see it and that MOST of the biased people are willing to sellout this badly.

I think your bias has reached to the point of being a joke, it's like CP said a "broken record". Maybe not everyone shopping for a car want A/C, you heard that people with arthraitus cannot sit inside A/C places. Not everyone likes listening to the radio when they drive. You mention everything that is beautiful is good. I dunno, because you diss out imports and praise domestics purely based on looks.

[haypops]

Now if that were really true, don't you think more people would drive them? 

Saw a recent add on TV here in Honda land (California) and Cevrolet outsells Honda here. NOt GM, but Chevrolet alone. My daughter's friend (16) just got a Honda Accord from her father. She is glad to have anything but told us that defroster doesn't work , the turn signals don't work, and a bunch of other things. He is an electrician! I understand why people buy Toyotas (not me personaly) but why Honda?

[haypops]

I bet Maytag is a CR "Best Pick" :AH-HA_wink:

Consumer Reportrs doesn't know squat about refigerators. Seriously!

[pow]

Anyway, get a Fit if you want a well-equipped $14K Honda.

[Dragon]

I kinda wish they'd give a no stereo option and cut some money off the price. i usually install my own anyway

[BuddyP]

I think your bias has reached to the point of being a joke, it's like CP said a "broken record".  Maybe not everyone shopping for a car want A/C, you heard that people with arthraitus cannot sit inside A/C places.  Not everyone likes listening to the radio when they drive.  You mention everything that is beautiful is good.  I dunno, because you diss out imports and praise domestics purely based on looks.

Your missing the point... it still costs $15k!! Sure there are people that may not want A/C or radio, but for $15k is better have em both. If the car was $10k-$12k this post wouldn't even be here. The fact that is lacks both is not the argument, the fact that is lacks both and still costs $15k is.

Edited May 31, 2006 by BuddyP

[ToniCipriani]

I think your bias has reached to the point of being a joke, it's like CP said a "broken record".  Maybe not everyone shopping for a car want A/C, you heard that people with arthraitus cannot sit inside A/C places.  Not everyone likes listening to the radio when they drive.  You mention everything that is beautiful is good.  I dunno, because you diss out imports and praise domestics purely based on looks.

That's not the point. The point is that they're charging that much for what others will charge for grands less, only because of the name.

And that's what turned me off from Japanese cars in NA. I still buy Japanese in Hong Kong, because they represent the value.

[Snate]

They should pay you to live with that awful interior.

[siegen]

My daughter's friend (16) just got a Honda Accord from her father.  She is glad to have anything but told us that defroster doesn't work , the turn signals don't work, and a bunch of other things.  He is an electrician!  I understand why people buy Toyotas (not me personaly) but why Honda?

Because your daughter's friend bought a Honda Accord (used?) and some things don't work on it, you don't understand why people buy Honda's? I don't understand why my 2004 GMC Sierra has had to make 2 warranty trips to the dealer already with only 20k on the clock!! By your logic, I don't see why anybody buys GM trucks, yet they are best selling.

[siegen]

Siegen, that's the point: the biased media are telling people NOT to bother with GM because [insert pet peeve here].  EVERY time I drive a client in a Cobalt and a Corolla back to back they are STUNNED.  They literally are speechless. They can't understand why the Corolla would get such rave reviews.

  The Civic is rapidly pricing itself out of the market.  I've had customers tell me that they've left the Honda dealer because all they do is bash GM and get nasty when the client wants to shop other makes.

  I think HOnda and Toyota are where GM was 20 years ago.

They probably get angry at the dealer because the dealers only carry loaded Civic's and usually add $1000 to the price because they are popular. The cheapest Civic within 75 miles of here (5 or 6 dealers worth) is 17k, and they go up to 25k new for a completely loaded EX. Usually it's not as bad as in the Seattle area (here), but I'm sure there are plenty of other places. A lot of Honda dealers are kind of arrogant though.

The Cobalt is 2 years newer than the Corolla, and are you driving equally equiped models back to back? Or a loaded Cobalt vs a cloth-seated Corolla?

[regfootball]

Siegen, that's the point: the biased media are telling people NOT to bother with GM because [insert pet peeve here].  EVERY time I drive a client in a Cobalt and a Corolla back to back they are STUNNED.  They literally are speechless. They can't understand why the Corolla would get such rave reviews.

  The Civic is rapidly pricing itself out of the market.  I've had customers tell me that they've left the Honda dealer because all they do is bash GM and get nasty when the client wants to shop other makes.

  I think HOnda and Toyota are where GM was 20 years ago.

the cobalt is a nice ride and it doesn't surprise me that folks would notice how good it is, even aside a corolla.

listen, an entire post war baby boom generation grew up and was taught to loathe America. they were taught to please themselves and that their country was bad. they believed their sh----t did not stink and they were all that mattered. the love of all things honda and toyota was merely a convenient outlet for that sentiment. it was a great way to thumb your nose up at the establishment (GM) at the time and latch on to something supposedly better. I think what you are starting to see the tip of now is.....a realization by all the other age groups in this country that we shouldn't have to conform all our policies, politics and culture to one generation. The older generations recognized the value of service to country and working hard to support others and building around selfless values. The younger generations are backlashing against the corrupt business values and personal values of the twisted baby boom generation. The younger geenration is a more pragmatic and scrappy bunch and is often willing to evaluate things less on what the bully pulpit (CR and friends opinions) says and more on gut instinct and emotion.

I think we are seeing an awakening from many groups that perfection doesn't really exist and sometimes 'perfection' is not what you want anyways. Maybe folks these days are becoming selfless enough to not always have to have things JUST SO anymore.

[regfootball]

I understand why people buy Toyotas (not me personaly) but why Honda?

Well, the Toyo dealer was out of Camlees for the week, so they had to buy something!!!

[regfootball]

Your missing the point... it still costs $15k!! Sure there are people that may not want A/C or radio, but for $15k is better have em both. If the car was $10k-$12k this post wouldn't even be here. The fact that is lacks both is not the argument, the fact that is lacks both and still costs $15k is.

I can buy a new Fusion with a radio for 15k.........

[regfootball]

Your missing the point... it still costs $15k!! Sure there are people that may not want A/C or radio, but for $15k is better have em both. If the car was $10k-$12k this post wouldn't even be here. The fact that is lacks both is not the argument, the fact that is lacks both and still costs $15k is.

mazda 3 gives you a radio for 15k......

[CARBIZ]

Reg, that is a good point. Also, a lot of "media" are basing their opinions on an axe to grind because their parent's 1983 Citation was a POS!

If you compare the complexity of a 1990 Pontiac to a 1990 Honda, odds are that the Pontiac was equipped with more toys: power windows, a/c, etc. Therefore, it is mathematically probable that the 1990 Pontiac would have given more problems. GM has always been at the forefront of technology, with things like ABS standard in cars long before any other mainstream brands. Anybody remember the touchscreen technology on the late '80s Rivieras? It stands to reason that someone buying a 1989 Riviera would have more potential to be pissed off than their neighbor's Accord.

Also, considering GM was selling 5 million cars a year in the mid-80s and Honda probably sold a 100k cars a year in North America, GM clearly had the potential to piss off a lot more people.

Fast forward to 2006 and the legacy has settled with people's perceptions of GM. The Civic does a lot of things right, but considering its premium over the Cobalt, you would have to deliberately want to spend more money to buy the same thing on a Civic. The Corolla doesn't even compare at this stage. The engine is under powered, the car shakes on bad bumps and the whole thing feels tinny.

Drive it and see for yourself.

[evok]

Also, considering GM was selling 5 million cars a year in the mid-80s and Honda probably sold a 100k cars a year in North America, GM clearly had the potential to piss off a lot more people.

 

Oh no - by the late 1980s Honda's Accord was on the cusp of being America's number 1 vehicle and producing 1/2 million vehicles in the US and Canada.

[The O.C.]

Who the hell would buy a radio-less vehicle? Seriously?!

That gives the dealership an opportunity to make some profit on a dealership-installed radio (and AC for that matter) on a base car.

This "base" Civic argument isn't a big deal at all......if you need the extra equipment, you'll move up from a DX to an LX.

Simple solution.

[The O.C.]

I kinda wish they'd give a no stereo option and cut some money off the price.  i usually install my own anyway

Honda is KNOWN for having no options on any of their cars. Everything is "hard-packaged."

Honda is also known for their extensive selection of dealer-installed accessories.

Not that long ago, even a DX Accord used to have AC as an optional "dealer-installed" accessory.

I don't get all the bitching about this issue....

[The O.C.]

Now if that were really true, don't you think more people would drive them? 

[The O.C.]

Your missing the point... it still costs $15k!! Sure there are people that may not want A/C or radio, but for $15k is better have em both. If the car was $10k-$12k this post wouldn't even be here. The fact that is lacks both is not the argument, the fact that is lacks both and still costs $15k is.

I think YOU guys are missing the point.

As far as I've heard, the new Civic is a roaring success and Honda appears to be selling all of them they can get, and for not much discount (at least around here when I wandered thru the Honda store in Irvine.)

So....underequipped base model or NOT.....the car is hot and GM only WISHES people flocked to a Cobalt (or G5) in the same manner....

BTW....also as far as I know, I haven't seen a SINGLE new Civic in a rental lot....????????

[Newbiewar]

well there was a reason i picked the elantra a few years ago as my first new vehicle... it was the cheapest car that came with power windows power doors mirrors and a/c and stereo...

for the future i'll never get another asian 4 banger, cause their A/C's are gutless and dont know how to cool you down on a hot day...

[Snate]

I'm not quite sure who would pay 16.5K for a base civic (DX with auto and freight)...its rather mind boggling.

Then again its got the appropriate hood ornament so its all good.

[sciguy_0504]

I think it comes down to this: if anyone buys any car without air conditioning, a radio and/or power something/everything, they are morons, idiots, assinine, stupid, etc. If they want to waste their money on such a limited content car, let them. This has nothing to do with news or some big media conspiracy against GM. It's about stupid people.

[Flybrian]

I think it comes down to this:  if anyone buys any car without air conditioning, a radio and/or power something/everything, they are morons, idiots, assinine, stupid, etc.  If they want to waste their money on such a limited content car, let them.  This has nothing to do with news or some big media conspiracy against GM.  It's about stupid people.

Agreed.

[Satty]

A radio-delete option would be a better way to go, that way people who want the base car get a radio, and those who are going to ditch the stock one within a couple hours of delivery can save $300 on the car.

[MyerShift]

I would pay 15K for the "typical" economy car without:

A/C

Power Steering

Power Locks

Power Windows

Rear Defroster

Airbags

IF

it came with:

A great suspension setup

Good feeling steering

Electronic speed control

4/5/6 speed manual tranmission

Cassette/CD player with 6 decent speakers

[regfootball]

considering that a cheap ass car radio can be bought for like 20 bucks at Checker, it really amounts to Honda being outright pompous for not giving the customer a radio.

if you're like GM or Ford you build 2-3 million of the same ugly head unit and it probably ends up costing like 18 dollars a unit. Quite simply, Honda thinks they are above the customer but that &#036;h&#33; will get them in trouble over time.

[The O.C.]

A radio-delete option would be a better way to go, that way people who want the base car get a radio, and those who are going to ditch the stock one within a couple hours of delivery can save $300 on the car.

....but in the real world, all that would matter is how the DEALER orders the inventory. Radio-delete doesn't do anything if the dealer orders his stock all WITH radios....

[fuel_sipping]

Reg, that is a good point.  Also, a lot of "media" are basing their opinions on an axe to grind because their parent's 1983 Citation was a POS! 

  If you compare the complexity of a 1990 Pontiac to a 1990 Honda, odds are that the Pontiac was equipped with more toys: power windows, a/c, etc.  Therefore, it is mathematically probable that the 1990 Pontiac would have given more problems.  GM has always been at the forefront of technology, with things like ABS standard in cars long before any other mainstream brands.  Anybody remember the touchscreen technology on the late '80s Rivieras?  It stands to reason that someone buying a 1989 Riviera would have more potential to be pissed off than their neighbor's Accord. 

Also, considering GM was selling 5 million cars a year in the mid-80s and Honda probably sold a 100k cars a year in North America, GM clearly had the potential to piss off a lot more people.

  Fast forward to 2006 and the legacy has settled with people's perceptions of GM.  The Civic does a lot of things right, but considering its premium over the Cobalt, you would have to deliberately want to spend more money to buy the same thing on a Civic.  The Corolla doesn't even compare at this stage.  The engine is under powered, the car shakes on bad bumps and the whole thing feels tinny.

  Drive it and see for yourself.

My 1990 Toyota Supra has more advanced options then my cousin's loaded 2000 Alero. I've never had any trouble with my features. They are fogs, dimmable gauges, rear defogger, auto climate, a/c, c/d tape deck, 6 speaker system, power locks, pwr windows (auto-down and modded to auto up), alarm, pass vanity, leather, 8way power seats w/ power lumbar controls, heated and power mirrors, electronically controlled suspension, progressive steering, tilt & telescope wheel, ect, lsd, abs, etc...

So I dont think that your more options more troubles theory is completely viable.

[CARBIZ]

OMIGOD, like one example out of 25 million vehicles is statistically accurate - that's worse sampling than CR!!!

You would pick the one car that Toyota built that came with anything other than an engine!

Do the math: if GM sold 5 million cars in a year and 1% of them had problems, then that is 50,000 pissed off customers. If Toyota sold 500,000 vehicles in the same year and had the same 1% break down rate, that is only 5,000 pissed off customers. Cumulatively, and with amazing anecdotal evidence such as fuel_sipping's, there are a lot of potentially more pissed off GM customer's with axes to grind.

I have no proof of this, only 45 years of keeping my eyes open and loving vehicles, but I would wager that the proportion of GM's sold in any given year in the '80s came packed with more features (a/c, automatic, power windows, etc.) than comparable Toyota's or Honda's - or are we forgetting that Toyopet and Honda were first econoboxes, then later technically sophisticated?

Yes, once the Acuras came out in '87, the technical sophistication of Toyota and Honda rose dramatically; however, throughout much of the decade the Tercel, early Corollas and Civics were sold with 5 spds and rarely a/c!

[Guest Joshiepoo]

GM would never sell a car for more than $14000 with no power windows, door locks, mirrors, air conditioning or trunk space.