Toyota News: Next Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ in Development

[Drew Dowdell]

With the introduction of the Toyota Supra, rumors have been swirling that the 86/BRZ twins might not be replaced when their production lives were up.  Autocar UK has a quote from Toyota's European Marketing Chief saying "[the GT86] has been a successful halo product for us" and added that "...the Supra is not to replace that car."

The 86/FR-S/BRZ was released in 2011 as a co-development between Toyota and Subaru.  It uses Subaru's boxer engine and transmission.  It is highly likely that the next generation model would continue to use the signature engine. The new car would continue sit below the Supra in the Toyota lineup. Akio Toyoda has stated interest in building a full lineup of sports cars.

Whatever comes from the next generation 86, we're just glad that SUVs haven't killed yet another sports car.

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[ykX]

Great they doing a new one.  We need an affordable sports car among the sea of boring SUVs.

I hope they make it substantially better while keeping relatively low price.

Edited March 22, 2019 by ykX

[G. David Felt]

Anything would be better than the current one. Mor power please.

[Frisky Dingo]

Coming soon to a Toyota dealer near you......with 210 hp and 156 lb-ft.

[Robert Hall]

Looks like my neighbor's teenage son just got a used BRZ/86/FRS...it's red, has no front bumper and goes 'brawwwpp'. 

[oldshurst442]

Dont all those 4 cylinder "street rods" all go 'brawwwpp'? 

There was a young adult go through my drive-through with a current gen VW Golf that also went brawwwpp. I dont think it was a GTI...didnt look it, but sure as hell tried to sound like it had more bark then it actually had...

I cant hate them anymore for that!

Actually, quite the opposite as that means they are enthusiasts of the motor vehicle....gotta respect 'em as these are the kids that will grow up and DEMAND that we have enthusiast type self-driving pods...

And Im happy that Toyota and Subaru are investing in another generation...as maybe there is a slight sliver of hope that not all sheeple are so much into their smart phones and CUVs that these types of cars COULD still exist! 

[Robert Hall]

Yah, and the guy across the street's '18 Mustang sounds like that also...(2.3 Ecoboost version).   There are several fun cars on my street... one guy has a silver S2000,  there is a dark red 1st gen Miata in great shape, a black Grand National I've never seen out of the garage, and a red '04-06 GTO around the corner. 

[G. David Felt]

Pass on all those Brawwwwppppp V8 Fart Can upgrades on 4 bangers. Give me some real tuned V8 power.  

After all, if your gonna make some noise, then have the performance to back it up.

[smk4565]

22 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Coming soon to a Toyota dealer near you......with 210 hp and 156 lb-ft.

For $32,000.

[Drew Dowdell]

To harp on power in these cars is to completely miss the point.  These are handling and agility cars.  They are extremely satisfying drives without having to break the speed laws to get satisfaction. 

[daves87rs]

Yep, I’ll take a hellcat for power, and and 86 for a joyride....

#loveallfuncars

[Robert Hall]

The 86/BRZ sounds like it would be a really fun backroad car for Ohio's twisty backroads.   Though I'd probably enjoy a Miata more w/ the top down.  But would have to deal w/ 60-90 min of freeway to get to my favorite back roads. 

[Drew Dowdell]

44 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The 86/BRZ sounds like it would be a really fun backroad car for Ohio's twisty backroads.   Though I'd probably enjoy a Miata more w/ the top down.  But would have to deal w/ 60-90 min of freeway to get to my favorite back roads. 

That's exactly the type of car they are... a Miata competitor but with a hardtop and slightly more room in the cabin. 

[Frisky Dingo]

On 3/23/2019 at 4:37 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

To harp on power in these cars is to completely miss the point.  These are handling and agility cars.  They are extremely satisfying drives without having to break the speed laws to get satisfaction. 

 

Counterpoint- 

No, it's NOT.

 

People seem to keep implying that there is only A) light, low-power, handling focused and B) big, heavy, speed-focused. An GT86 or a Hellcat. A Miata or a 488 GTB.

What everyone is ignoring is that is a huge multitude of ground between those two bookends. These cars' engines are underpowered, tragically slow, unexciting, aurally mediocre, and just generally lackluster. They have no low-end, they don't really rev out, they aren't linear, they don't have character, and they don't inspire you to wring them out. You simply have to drive the balls off them to get them to do anything. They are not fun at virtually anything other than backroad carving, and they leave some to be desired even at that.

That's putting aside the fact this car been on the market for what is rapidly approaching a decade, with 0 major changes. It has not evolved to keep pace with the market and industry. It was in development for too long, and arrived on the scene already with unimpressive numbers and performance. This is seeming to be a consistent trend with Toyota performance products. This car needed a turbo model with 270hp 5 yrs ago, or at the very least, a Cosworth-tuned N/A variant w/ 230hp and an exciting powerband.

It is a massively underwhelming product that is stale and long overdue for a major upgrade. Point blank.

[ykX]

@Frisky Dingo And yet at autocross events Miata and GT86/BRZ seem to be in the majority as best suited where good handling is concerned.  It seems the spread in the best times of capable drivers at autocross is between Porsche/Corvette and Miata/ FRS/BRZ.  

Edited March 25, 2019 by ykX

[Frisky Dingo]

49 minutes ago, ykX said:

@Frisky Dingo And yet at autocross events Miata and GT86/BRZ seem to be in the majority as best suited where good handling is concerned.  It seems the spread in the best times of capable drivers at autocross is between Porsche/Corvette and Miata/ GT85/BRZ.  

I don't doubt that. But we don't drive auto-x courses on a daily basis.

[ykX]

24 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I don't doubt that. But we don't drive auto-x courses on a daily basis.

My point is that it is a pretty good indication of these cars' handling capability.  What other cars in that price range can do as good?

[ccap41]

I would have to believe the 4-banger Camaro with that Alpha chassis would do pretty damn well along with whooping it in a straight line. 

For $30,500 you can step the 2.0T up to the 1LE package and it would absolutely eat the BRZ's breakfast, lunch, and dinner. 

[garnermike]

IMO, it would have a ways to go to beat this for "one-with-the-road joyriding," even if the MX-5 did not meet the hp of the 86/BRZ. The 2019 MX-5 rates 181hp, 151 torque, and get 35mpg, and, when compared to the existing BRZ, weighs 300-400lbs less. Plus, it will likely start at a couple of thousand dollars less.  https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mx-5-miata

[G. David Felt]

This is where an electric motor assist would make sense I think. Not a pure hybrid with 30 to 50 miles of pure electric range, but to take a page out of F1 racing where an electric motor using a super-capacitor to give a jolt of power when needed to goose the gander.

A well defined driving auto like the Miata or BRZ would benefit by a few second boost of power I think.

[ccap41]

They would not benefit form the additional hundreds of pounds of weight in batteries and motor(s). 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

This is where an electric motor assist would make sense I think. Not a pure hybrid with 30 to 50 miles of pure electric range, but to take a page out of F1 racing where an electric motor using a super-capacitor to give a jolt of power when needed to goose the gander.

A well defined driving auto like the Miata or BRZ would benefit by a few second boost of power I think.

 

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

They would not benefit form the additional hundreds of pounds of weight in batteries and motor(s). 

Tesla already did that a decade ago.  The Tesla Roadster was Lotus Elise based (fantastic handling) and crazy fast (they could walk away from an Audi R8 like it was standing still). 

The question was the price, not the handling, weight, or speed. 

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Tesla already did that a decade ago.  The Tesla Roadster was Lotus Elise based (fantastic handling) and crazy fast (they could walk away from an Audi R8 like it was standing still). 

The question was the price, not the handling, weight, or speed. 

Fantastic numbers-wise or fantastic like an MX-5 or Elise? Those are two very different things. 

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Fantastic numbers-wise or fantastic like an MX-5 or Elise? Those are two very different things. 

I haven't driven one to be able to answer that... but take an Elise and lower the center of gravity, even with more weight, it's going to be pretty damn good. 

Car and Driver said:

Quote

With close to a half-ton of lithium-ion batteries aboard, the weight of which falls mainly on the rear axle, the Tesla’s handling recalls that of a Porsche 911. It’s lithe and darty through corners, but at the extreme limit of its grip, the steering turns slack under acceleration as the front axle goes light and loses its bite.

So 911 like... that's typically a good thing. 

That said... the Model 3 rides terribly and handles only average. So it's not like Tesla has knowledge advantage. They just did well with the roadster because it was Lotus based. 

[frogger]

My cousin bought a Tesla roadster when he sold his startup at age 27, then a few years later switched to a 911, which almost road like a luxury car in comparison.  Now his fun car is a McLaren.

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

20 minutes ago, frogger said:

My cousin bought a Tesla roadster when he sold his startup at age 27, then a few years later switched to a 911, which almost road like a luxury car in comparison.  Now his fun car is a McLaren.

 

 

 

Will he go back to Tesla Roadster 2.0?

[frogger]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Will he go back to Tesla Roadster 2.0?

He did not put any money down on one, has a few kids under 3 years old now so he hasn't really had much time to drive his fun car lately, let alone think about what is next.

 

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

He did not put any money down on one, has a few kids under 3 years old now so he hasn't really had much time to drive his fun car lately, let alone think about what is next.

A few kids under 3... he's clearly busy doing something else.