Industry News: Rumorpile: BMW and Diamler May Team Up On Compact Cars

[William Maley]

The number of automakers teaming up to share and develop new vehicles and technologies is growing in an effort to help reduce costs. A new report from German paper Handelsblatt says that BMW and Daimler are considering such a move.

Speaking to sources at both companies, BMW and Daimler are looking into possibly jointly developing their next-generation compact cars (BMW 1-Series and Mercedes-Benz A-Class) - as part of a wider cooperation that includes sharing autonomous car tech. Working together on a new compact car platform would save the two companies billions in investments. If the two decide to move forward with this, the first cars aren't expected to arrive until 2025.

But trying to sell this idea to BMW and Mercedes-Benz engineers may be the difficult part according to the report.

Daimler and BMW have teamed up before,

• In 2015, the two along with Audi purchased Nokia's mapping software, Here.
• Last year, BMW and Daimler merged their short-term rental services to create a better presence in the mobility market.

Source: Handelsblatt, Automotive News (Subscription Required)

View full article

[A Horse With No Name]

The stuff from Benz is vastly better looking.

Of course, the same could actually be said of Hyundai. BMW seems to be suffering an existential Crisis as of late...

What is it BMW stands for or is supposed to be any more?

[ccap41]

Makes sense... 

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The stuff from Benz is vastly better looking.

Of course, the same could actually be said of Hyundai. BMW seems to be suffering an existential Crisis as of late...

What is it BMW stands for or is supposed to be any more?

Virtual Driving Machine based on a very Bloated diet of lard as they ass waddles when they move! Not impressed with the bloated weight and crazy prices to repair.

[smk4565]

I feel like this is unlikely to happen.  This would be like the unholy alliance.  Mercedes can get enough scale off their FWD platform that they don't need BMW to share cost on, why help them out.  I think it more likely the combine efforts on autonomous driving systems.

[oldshurst442]

Wow...

I thought only electrics will be homoginized and "souless"...

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I feel like this is unlikely to happen.................why help them out.

Because of National pride...so I think this has good chances of happening.

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

This would be like the unholy alliance.

Yes, if we were was still in 1980s or 1990s.  If GM and Ford could build transmissions together and before that, go to congress and try to get help together so no Big 3 goes under then I think BMW and M-B could do a platform or two for FWD mass market appliances. 

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes can get enough scale off their FWD platform that they don't need BMW to share cost on

Sure, but if they could get some money from another source (BMW) to lesson the financial burden, then its win win, non?

And no, like in North America, it wont be a good thing for Germany if one of their Big 3 goes under. M-B and BMW are probably aware of this as this nearly happened in North America. Im sure M-B, BMW, VAG and other German economists studied the Detroit situation and learned from that. 

[riviera74]

VWAG will never go under because it is part-owned by Lower Saxony, Germany.  (Imagine if Michigan owned a large part of GM or Ford).  If Germany was that cutthroat, then Daimler or (more likely) BMW would be forced to walk the plank.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Wow...

I thought only electrics will be homoginized and "souless"...

Because of National pride...so I think this has good chances of happening.

Yes, if we were was still in 1980s or 1990s.  If GM and Ford could build transmissions together and before that, go to congress and try to get help together so no Big 3 goes under then I think BMW and M-B could do a platform or two for FWD mass market appliances. 

Sure, but if they could get some money from another source (BMW) to lesson the financial burden, then its win win, non?

And no, like in North America, it wont be a good thing for Germany if one of their Big 3 goes under. M-B and BMW are probably aware of this as this nearly happened in North America. Im sure M-B, BMW, VAG and other German economists studied the Detroit situation and learned from that. 

Daimler doesn't have a money problem though.  They are the #1 commercial truck maker in Europe, Freightliner is #1 in USA, Mercedes is #1 selling luxury car, etc.  They have a lot of sources of income and they don't have a profit problem.

That being said, the people buying a 1-series or A-class probably aren't going to care about the chassis that much, and BMW and Mercedes would probably use their own engines and transmission and make the cars feel different enough.  Also funny that Infiniti doesn't want to partner with Mercedes anymore but BMW wants to join in with them.

[A Horse With No Name]

Strange how Benz and BMW are doubling down on small cars when the big three are abandoning them.

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Strange how Benz and BMW are doubling down on small cars when the big three are abandoning them.

Because they still sell cars in markets that want small cars and efficient vehicles?  Not all markets are as enamored with CUVs, SUVs and huge pickups as the US. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Robert Hall

[A Horse With No Name]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Because they still sell cars in markets that want small cars and efficient vehicles?  Not all markets are as enamored with CUVs, SUVs and huge pickups as the US. 

Does not bode well for Ford and Chryco when peoples opinions change back.

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is #1 selling luxury car

I cringe every time you say that.  Mercedes does sell a lot of cars, yes. But not all their sedans that they sell have that luxury status. In Europe and in North America. 

What constitutes luxury for you?

Badge?  Like I said, not all 3 pointed star sales are of the luxury appointment inside and outside the car. 

Price? 

Chevrolet, let alone GMC,  overall sales outsells Mercedes Benz in the price department just with their top of the line Silverados and Tahoes. Meaning, more high priced Silverados and Tahoes that are MORE expensive than the lower tiered Mercedes cars, including the mid-ranged C and E Class cars are sold in the US and Canada...

If you mean only the 100 000 dollar priced cars, then maybe Ill be in agreement with you. 

But then again, livery service S Classes dont mean anything to me either.  

 

30 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Does not bode well for Ford and Chryco when peoples opinions change back.

Do not forget about GM.  Buick seems to be going the all CUV and no sedan route also. 

[Robert Hall]

23 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Do not forget about GM.  Buick seems to be going the all CUV and no sedan route also. 

As far as M-B goes, I suppose one could say M-B is a full spectrum automaker--from subcompacts to top-line luxury sedans, SUVs, cargo vans, etc.   It's just they have everything under one brand rather than GM's 4 brands or Toyota's 2 brands. Though they do have additional heavy truck brands in some markets (like Freightliner). 

 

Outside of 2-3 sedans at Cadillac, will the Malibu be the only GM NA sedan in a short time? 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Robert Hall

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

As far as M-B goes, I suppose one could say M-B is a full spectrum automaker--from subcompacts to top-line luxury sedans, SUVs, cargo vans, etc.   It's just they have everything under one brand rather than GM's 4 brands or Toyota's 2 brands. Though they do have additional heavy truck brands in some markets (like Freightliner). 

 

Outside of 2-3 sedans at Cadillac, will the Malibu be the only GM sedan in a short time? 

Convertibles, coupes, wagons, et al also.

Part of me is really starting to like the lineup a bit as an enthusiast. Not a fanboi....but they do seem to want my money.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Because they still sell cars in markets that want small cars and efficient vehicles?  Not all markets are as enamored with CUVs, SUVs and huge pickups as the US. 

So True, plus most American Sized Trucks and SUV/CUVs will not fit on the pre-WWII roads of Europe or Asia.

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

will not fit on the pre-WWII roads of Europe or Asia.

You mean, and lets be honest, and there is nothing wrong with it, but you do really mean donkey trails for villages and horse trails for the main roads.  

The USA for the most part, was really built around the automobile.  

The North American indigenous peoples just used nature's trails to get around quickly. Which was ingenious in its own right as well.

 

Now, us modern North Americans need that huge grilled, huge 35 000 pound towing capacity to tow our little dinky boats around.

 

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

As far as M-B goes, I suppose one could say M-B is a full spectrum automaker--from subcompacts to top-line luxury sedans, SUVs, cargo vans, etc.   It's just they have everything under one brand rather than GM's 4 brands or Toyota's 2 brands. Though they do have additional heavy truck brands in some markets (like Freightliner). 

Sure! Absolutely!  

But being all that, is it fair to call M-B the world's best selling luxury maker?

Because if we add all of GM's sales of cars/trucks/SUVs over the 50 000 -60 000 dollar "luxury" threshold,  I would bet my money on GM being the world's most selling luxury maker.  

 

[Robert Hall]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

So True, plus most American Sized Trucks and SUV/CUVs will not fit on the pre-WWII roads of Europe or Asia.

 Because of factors such as high fuel costs and available public transit (rail, etc), urbanization (not suburban sprawl), they have little to no demand for full size pickups or full size SUVs...demand for them in the US is a side affect of cheap US fuel, etc.   Modern roads of Europe and Asia aren't pre-WWII size.  

Edited January 23, 2019 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

PS:

let it be known that being arrogant and having the space in our countries and money to own and drive huge wasteful behemoths  is a luxury in itself.

Also, North America aint the only place in the world where such arrogance is present.

I want you guys to observe, while there is a Mercedes Benz in that police force, so there is a FORD Mustang too. 

And THAT is my point, while Mercedes-Benz sells a lot of cars in many many niches and markets all over the world, luxury, especially today, has a different meaning. 

Badge? Price? Exclusivity?  

That particular Ford Mustang was not sold outside of North America. Its exclusive to that part of the world...and its just a Ford at the end of the day. Yet, here it is, proudly displayed with exotics...

Price?

Like I said, GM probably sells more mid level to high level priced cars than everybody else. Is THAT a definition of a #1 maker of luxury cars?

Well, technically it is!!! 

Badge?

Does Mercedes Benz really sell the most 100 000 dollar priced cars?

But what about Lamborghini and Ferrari which actually sells a ton of 250 000 dollar plus vehicles respectively?  Because Mercedes Benz actually does not sell THAT many as compared to Ferrari and Lambo...

Edited January 23, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

Mercedes is referred to as the #1 selling luxury brand in the world since they outsell BMW, Audi, Lexus, Cadillac, etc.  They sold about 2.3 million cars the past couple years, about 400,000 of that are A/B-class platform so you are still talking about 1.9 million C-class and up which would be about $45k + cars.

Mercedes has a full truck and bus line, those are $250,000+ vehicles but obviously not luxury cars like a Silverado is not a luxury truck.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

luxury cars like a Silverado is not a luxury truck.

What constitutes luxury?

Because a Sierra Denali that creeps up to the 100 000 dollar price tag has all the electronic gadgetry and pizzazz that a 100 000 dollar Mercedes has...

Obviously a Silverado does not get to be 100 000 dollars, but it gets pricey that it costs MORE than the lower level AMG branded Mercedes Benzes. That Silverado that creeps up in price to match lower level Mercedes Benzes has got the SAME amount of luxury features of those lower level AMG branded M-B cars...

You put too much into the sales thing...it means nothing for luxury...

EXCLUSIVITY is one of THE most important definitions of luxury and price has NOTHING to do with it!  Along with that is desire to own that rare object...and while rarity often means high price, again, price has NOTHING to do with it. Value is something else altogether. But we must not confuse all those things...

And...JUST because something has a high price tag does NOT mean its of value or its valuable or its worth the asking price...that includes Silverados, certain AMG cars. But if you gonna bring down Silverados, you MUST bring down Mercedes Benz and certain cars they sell at high prices that makes YOU think Mercedes Benz is THE #1 luxury maker. 

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is referred to as the #1 selling luxury brand in the world since they outsell BMW, Audi, Lexus, Cadillac, etc

1. That would only be YOU that says that.

2. Mercedes does NOT outsell the REAL luxury brands. Rolls Royce, Bentley in those REAL high priced luxury niches...

In fact, they tried to do so but FAILED with the Maybach a decade ago... 

Maybach is also a failed brand from the past that M-B tried to resurrect with no success...

3. Ferrari and Lamborghini outsell Mercedes Benz in the 1 000 000 dollar car sweepstakes. Like since the automobile was invented. 

And Mercedes Benz had several cars in that realm over its course of its history, but Ferrari is Ferrari and million dollar cars for them is like making cappuccino...no big deal...to them, but to you and me, we make a mess out of it. 

 

So...we go back to a watered down definition of what constitutes sales and price tags of luxury cars, but even there, Mercedes is not #1 because General Motors sells MORE luxury priced cars than Mercedes does...

1. Mercedes does NOT outsell the REAL luxury cars...Rolls, Bentleys, hell even Ferrari and Lamboghini in those ultra high price tags. Mercedes Benz gets to sell 1 car model every decade in that stratosphere...

2. General Motors has got Mercedes beat in over all luxury priced vehicles...

You got nowhere to go with this, SMK...

 

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

What constitutes luxury?

Because a Sierra Denali that creeps up to the 100 000 dollar price tag has all the electronic gadgetry and pizzazz that a 100 000 dollar Mercedes has...

Obviously a Silverado does not get to be 100 000 dollars, but it gets pricey that it costs MORE than the lower level AMG branded Mercedes Benzes. That Silverado that creeps up in price to match lower level Mercedes Benzes has got the SAME amount of luxury features of those lower level AMG branded M-B cars...

You put too much into the sales thing...it means nothing for luxury...

EXCLUSIVITY is one of THE most important definitions of luxury and price has NOTHING to do with it!  Along with that is desire to own that rare object...and while rarity often means high price, again, price has NOTHING to do with it. Value is something else altogether. But we must not confuse all those things...

And...JUST because something has a high price tag does NOT mean its of value or its valuable or its worth the asking price...that includes Silverados, certain AMG cars. But if you gonna bring down Silverados, you MUST bring down Mercedes Benz and certain cars they sell at high prices that makes YOU think Mercedes Benz is THE #1 luxury maker. 

1. That would only be YOU that says that.

2. Mercedes does NOT outsell the REAL luxury brands. Rolls Royce, Bentley in those REAL high priced luxury niches...

In fact, they tried to do so but FAILED with the Maybach a decade ago... 

Maybach is also a failed brand from the past that M-B tried to resurrect with no success...

3. Ferrari and Lamborghini outsell Mercedes Benz in the 1 000 000 dollar car sweepstakes. Like since the automobile was invented. 

And Mercedes Benz had several cars in that realm over its course of its history, but Ferrari is Ferrari and million dollar cars for them is like making cappuccino...no big deal...to them, but to you and me, we make a mess out of it. 

 

So...we go back to a watered down definition of what constitutes sales and price tags of luxury cars, but even there, Mercedes is not #1 because General Motors sells MORE luxury priced cars than Mercedes does...

1. Mercedes does NOT outsell the REAL luxury cars...Rolls, Bentleys, hell even Ferrari and Lamboghini in those ultra high price tags. Mercedes Benz gets to sell 1 car model every decade in that stratosphere...

2. General Motors has got Mercedes beat in over all luxury priced vehicles...

You got nowhere to go with this, SMK...

 

The Sierra Denali does not touch $100,000, nor does it have the tech wizardry of an S-class.  

If Exclusivity = luxury then Smart is the most luxurious vehicle in the world.

If a million dollars or even a half million is the measuring stick for luxury then we are saying only top end Rolls and Ferraris and Bugattis, McLarens and the Mercedes-AMG One are luxury cars.   So in that regard GM sells no luxury priced vehicles.

It is windy considered by pretty much everyone that luxury brands are Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln, Tesla, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar/Land Rover, Rolls, Bentley and the other high end super car brands I already mentioned.  Of this group Mercedes is #1 selling in the world.

GM isn't a car brand, if you want to compare "luxury priced" vehicles that GM sells vs what Daimler sells, I am sure Daimler would win that easily.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

nor does it have the tech wizardry of an S-class.  

https://www.slashgear.com/2020-gmc-sierra-heavy-duty-towing-technology-22563148/

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If a million dollars or even a half million is the measuring stick for luxury then we are saying only top end Rolls and Ferraris and Bugattis, McLarens and the Mercedes-AMG One are luxury cars.   So in that regard GM sells no luxury priced vehicles.

Then...No Mercedes either. Since all the brands YOU mentioned wipe the floor with Mercedes...

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GM isn't a car brand, if you want to compare "luxury priced" vehicles that GM sells vs what Daimler sells, I am sure Daimler would win that easily.

GM is a corporation that has car brands under its umbrella.

As does Mercedes Benz...within the 3 pointed star. 

In NO WAY IN HELL does a CLA, even an AMG CLA, is regarded as luxury...so...STOP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS!

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is windy considered by pretty much everyone that luxury brands are Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln, Tesla, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar/Land                and the other high end super car brands I already mentioned.  Of this group Mercedes is #1 selling in the world.

Those are all luxury priced brands...and FALSE...

According to YOUR OWN criteria...General Motors sells MORE luxury priced vehicles... 

Its funny, you like to include Mercedes' numbers in sales of cars that are NOT luxury oriented...like I said, an AMG CLA is now way in hell a luxury car. But its priced that way...

You cannot CONVENIENTLY add t those sales to the Mercedes company umbrella and CONVENIENTLY omit General Motors' umbrella brands...

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Sierra Denali does not touch $100,000

Nope, it touches 56 000. But its sibling, the Yukon XL Denali goes for 76 000. And if one customizes it...and there are a plenty, it touches 100 000. 

Because if you want to play the CLA AMG game of it being a luxury sale, then I can play the same game...

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Exclusivity = luxury then Smart is the most luxurious vehicle in the world.

Well...this is where you get to troll...

You want to sell me the idea of selling a ton of products is a definition of luxury, and deny the idea of exclusivity as a true defintion of luxury. 

 

PS: There are some countries that do not have drinking water...some countries I say...California seems to fit that criteria.

As abundant as drinking water is in Canada,and cheap to obtain, as in free. I get to waste as much as I want in Montreal without NOBODY telling me otherwise. ITS A FREAKING luxury in other parts of the world, this thing we call water...

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If a million dollars or even a half million is the measuring stick for luxury then we are saying only top end Rolls and Ferraris and Bugattis, McLarens 

And THAT is where I think YOU do NOT want to admit...but here you are...admitiing it! 

YES!  THAT is the TRUE measuring stick of luxury.

Price?   CHECK!

Exclusivity?  CHECK!

Badge?   CHECK! 

Notice I omitted your AMG ONE...as its not for sale yet. To boot, its been delayed as its got some teething problems...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a23785672/mercedes-amg-project-one-delay-news/

 

Like I said...for Ferrari, its as easy as making cappuccino. For M-B. They spill that shyte all over the place...

 

[smk4565]

30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

GM is a corporation that has car brands under its umbrella.

As does Mercedes Benz...within the 3 pointed star. 

In NO WAY IN HELL does a CLA, even an AMG CLA, is regarded as luxury...so...STOP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS!

Those are all luxury priced brands...and FALSE...

According to YOUR OWN criteria...General Motors sells MORE luxury priced vehicles... 

Notice I omitted your AMG ONE...as its not for sale yet. To boot, its been delayed as its got some teething problems...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a23785672/mercedes-amg-project-one-delay-news/

 

Like I said...for Ferrari, its as easy as making cappuccino. For M-B. They spill that shyte all over the place...

 

Daimler is the equivalent to GM as Daimler has vehicle brands under it and you can't buy a Daimler brand car or truck just like you can't buy a GM brand car.  These 2 are actually quit similar and different from others such as Ford, Toyota, VW, where the parent company is also the brand name.  Daimler brands are Mercedes cars, Mercedes Vans, Mercedes trucks, Mercedes bus, Freightliner, Western Star, Thomas Buses, Fuso and Smart.  

Mercedes-Benz cars sells about 2.3 million units per year, thus my original point was they don't really need BMW's help for economies of scale, they are bigger than BMW and they have enough economy of scale on their platforms. 

A CLA costs about the same as an A3, Q3, 1-series, S60, XC40, ATS, XT4, MKC, Lexus NX, Acura TLX, etc, so if none of that is a luxury car, then I guess a CLA isn't either.  But for a lot of "luxury" brands a lot of their volume is from sub $45,000 product, Mercedes main volume comes from the middle of their line.

As far as the AMG One goes, they will get it right, their goal is to get the car right, not put it on sale ASAP.  And it will beat any Ferrari road car ever made, and any other road car for that matter.

And if Ferrari was so great, they wouldn't have lost to Mercedes 5 years a row in Formula 1.  Ferrari are supposed to be the racing experts, the most legendary racing team of all time, it is what their business revolves around, and yet Mercedes beats them every year.

[G. David Felt]

I see MB CLA AMG in the same class as GM did for Chevrolet SS cars.

Performance for some, badging for others, but cheap ass cars for the common person.