Pontiac: Nothing but rwd cars?

[Flybrian]

True 'nuff, but that '97-99 Cutlass was a lame rebadge of the Malibu..pointless, considering the Alero was about the same size..

Well, it did have a point - that being retaining low-line Olds buyers (Achieva/Cutlass Ciera) until the new Alero came through. As a vehicle, yeah, it was rather pointless.

[91z4me]

I just dont see them making all Pontiac cars RWD.. atleast not the G6..  Id keep the G6 FWD.. here is what id do to Pontiac..

solstice: add a hardtop version,

G3: this would be a new rwd small car, based on a long wheelbase kappa platform.. it would come in coupe and sedan models..

If GM makes a lot of change to Kappa for Kappa II (to make it more flexible) it won't really be Kappa but it would likely carry som suspension components, though the hydroformed frame rails would likely be gone.

G5: would be replaced by the G3..

G6: this would be Pontiac's sole FWD car.. it would stay the same except i would drop the 3.9L and have the 3.6L dohc V6 as the top engine.. this is likely to happen in 2008 anyways..

I think G6 will stay FWD for the next gen on EPII, maybe getting optional AWD but definately not going RWD just yet.

GTO: a new one would be built on the zeta platform..  more retro styled..

G8/grand prix:  this replace the grand prix, it would ride on the zeta platform and would essentially be a four door GTO.. but unlike the GTO it would come standard with a V6 engine.. 

Maybe G8 would be the SWB VE sedan with the GTO's front end on it, I know GM was thinking about doing this at one point.

Vibe: bye bye..  if there was to be a new vibe id move it over to saturn or chevrolet..

Saturn and SAAB will both have 5 door hatches with Saturn on the low end. I think the 5 door Astra would pull in quite a few of the Vibe's buyers with the HHR pulling in some more. I say let it die it seems to be kept around more to keep GM in touch what Toyota is doing with their build techniques and CAMI than to be a viable model, though it is likely profitable.

Torrent: it would replace its arrowhead logo with a GMC logo..

Should have happened this gen I even made a chop of it when Torrent debuted and it looked really freakin' good.

SV8: already dead..

Agreed!

bonneville: id think about bringing it back on the long wheelbase Zeta..

Bonnie would be very low volume, 25K-30K per year, I say let Buick handle that with the LWB Zeta and let Pontiac concentrate on Sport rather than Lux. They are in the same showroom afterall.

[hyperv6]

Toss out comparing any of the present line up [less Solstice].

1 Large Performance Sedan RWD [Holden Statesman based] I am not sure this one is even needed but it is a thought.

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD [Holden VE base]

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD [Holden VE Based]

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD [second Gen Kappa Based]

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD[second Gen Kappa Based]

Solstice and or coupe variation [updated with Second Gen Kappa]

No trucks, no SUV, no Mini Van, No FWD, Nothing shared with Chevy or Saturn outside of the Sky, Camaro or Impala RWD.

With the Aura and NG Malibu there is no need for the G6.

With the Cobalt and Ion there is no need for a G5

If you want a Toyota buy one so there is no need for the Vibe.

Any truck or SUV would be GMC

Pontiac has no need to have more than 5 different models if it is paired with Buick.

No base rental car models either, keep the best suspesions on each and only two engine/tranny options at bests.

Keep it simple and retain cost and you just might make a profit. You don't need 14 models and 3 variations of each to save Pontiac.

Like wise with Buick let them have the mid size, bigger cars and cross overs. 4-5 models at best. Base them on Holden and FWD and ply them with all luxury options, quite and a smooth ride. Out lexus Lexues. Make a car for the buyer who can't pony up 50K or more on the Caddy.

Quality should over ride all on the two lines! When you are asking for more money you better give better than Chevy Quality in all areas.

I'm not going to say you need to use Tempest or Le mans at Pontiac but they do need names and not G numbers.

[evok]

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD [Holden VE base]

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD [Holden VE Based]

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD [second Gen Kappa Based]

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD[second Gen Kappa Based]

Solstice and or coupe variation [updated with Second Gen Kappa]

Not that I disagree with your product line-up but lets put some sales estimates next to the models. My point in this exercise is, will GM commit to a serious reduction in sales for an all rwd Pontiac.

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD - 40,000/yr

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD - 15,000/yr

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD - 60,000/yr

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD - 25,000/yr

Solstice and or coupe variation - 15,000/yr

Total estimated annual sales will drop to about 155k retail sales a year from about 250k retail sales(400k total including fleet and trucks) in the Pontiac Division in 2005.

Edited June 7, 2006 by evok

[CaddyXLR-V]

Not that I disagree with your product line-up but lets put some sales estimates next to the models.  My point in this exercise is, will GM commit to a serious reduction in sales for an all rwd Pontiac.

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD  - 40,000/yr

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD - 15,000/yr

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD  - 60,000/yr

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD - 25,000/yr

Solstice and or coupe variation - 15,000/yr

Total estimated annual sales will drop to about 155k retail sales a year from about 250k retail sales(400k total including fleet and trucks) in the Pontiac Division in 2005.

That doesn't seem bad, especially when right now Pontiac has alot more models. Wouldn't that be Pontiacs volume now if the Torrent and Vibe were dropped anyway?

[hyperv6]

Not that I disagree with your product line-up but lets put some sales estimates next to the models.  My point in this exercise is, will GM commit to a serious reduction in sales for an all rwd Pontiac.

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD  - 40,000/yr

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD - 15,000/yr

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD  - 60,000/yr

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD - 25,000/yr

Solstice and or coupe variation - 15,000/yr

Total estimated annual sales will drop to about 155k retail sales a year from about 250k retail sales(400k total including fleet and trucks) in the Pontiac Division in 2005.

Ypur 100% right and I agree fully with your numbers.

I think I should have fully explained more of my line of thought better.

Pontiac would sell less total vehicles but it would make more profit per car. The less is more idea.

I would expect a drop in sales with less models. Also I would expect more profit id the cars shared more with Holden just as the Saturn/Opel deal is working. The price on these cars would be above Chevy and Saturn so here too I would expect less sales.

It is hard to put into a short post, but the whole idea is this.

Offer RWD cars GM has sold else where in the world, but would be sold here in the Pontiac line

Sell less cars but by shareing the line from Holden it would help make both more profitable.

Sell cars in the states unlike anything the other division offer

Go after conquest sales vs building another G5 or G6 that would steal Cobalt or Malibu sales.

Etc. I think you might see where this is going.

I know there is a lot more to this and a lot of things would need to be worked out.

But in the end I see Buick/Pontiac being Holden USA with a few added models like the Enclave to fill out their needs.

It is just the world platform idea applied to Pontiac/Buick. It is not too far off from what Toyata is doing with Lexus.

I just figure if they could maintain or grow Buick let Pontiac drop to just a little but make both more profitable with shared world platforms. In the end you would save both names, improve the product and make more money per unit.

I look at it this way your either going to have two weak division with a lot of product that is like other divisions. Or you can let them play to their strenghts and work as one division with two names.

If sales increased then you could justify expanding the Pontiac line. You have to walk before you run and in this case they need to do it in a whole new way. A retro GTO or Bonnie is not going to fix what has been wrong.

FYI: I would have some FWD in the dealership but they would be under the Buick badge only.

I may be way off on this but it was just a thought. I know don't have all the answers or hard numbers to figure it all out. So keep in mind I in no way am saying this would work because I don't have all the needed info to prove it. My two key ideas are make Pontiac different and make them more profiable per unit. I am willing to lose some market share to gain profit.

Good or bad it is just my take on a idea. Besides if it was so easy we would not have to be coming up with ideas on how to save Pontiac in the first place since the big money guys have blown it for years.

Edited June 7, 2006 by hyperv6

[z28luvr01]

hyperv6, I think your plan is very well thought out and I believe that a combination of what you and 91z4me will be enough to save Pontiac. Pontiac's days as a "volume" brand are coming to an end. Torrent and SV6 are gone or will be. The G6 and the GP seem to be up in the air at the moment, at least as far as what their replacements will be.

These changes will likely spell the end of Pontiacs being peddled to fleet customers. evok, of those 400K sales, how many of those were fleet sales? I'm gathering it's a rather significant chunk. So even if your numbers for hyper's lineup are true, if the majority of those are retail sales, then the actual dropoff in retail sales will be much less drastic.

[hyperv6]

hyperv6, I think your plan is very well thought out and I believe that a combination of what you and 91z4me will be enough to save Pontiac. Pontiac's days as a "volume" brand are coming to an end. Torrent and SV6 are gone or will be. The G6 and the GP seem to be up in the air at the moment, at least as far as what their replacements will be.

These changes will likely spell the end of Pontiacs being peddled to fleet customers. evok, of those 400K sales, how many of those were fleet sales? I'm gathering it's a rather significant chunk. So even if your numbers for hyper's lineup are true, if the majority of those are retail sales, then the actual dropoff in retail sales will be much less drastic.

I know I have missed somethings somewhere in this ramble because if it were only this easy...........

That is whey we are all CEO's here and not getting paid for it!

The bottom line is no matter how they end up doing it they need to find profit somwhere for both brands.

[thegriffon]

Not that I disagree with your product line-up but lets put some sales estimates next to the models.  My point in this exercise is, will GM commit to a serious reduction in sales for an all rwd Pontiac.

1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD  - 40,000/yr

1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD - 15,000/yr

1 Small Performance Sedan RWD  - 60,000/yr

1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD - 25,000/yr

Solstice and or coupe variation - 15,000/yr

Total estimated annual sales will drop to about 155k retail sales a year from about 250k retail sales(400k total including fleet and trucks) in the Pontiac Division in 2005.

Purely a matter of opinion, but I think they could do better than that with moderate fleet sales, and with a slightly bigger lineup.

Let's say …

G8 sedan … at higher prices than the Grand Prix 50-75,000 p.a. (down from 160K GP+Bonneville in 2004)

G6 sedan and coupe (rwd) I think they could sustain 100K, at least, if not 125K. That's still down from 160K G6+GA in 2005 and what may be 170K this year.

The right-sized compact rwd sedan and coupe should be able to hit another 125,000 together - say 40,000 coupes (even Mitsubishi should manage that this year, and the tC will do twice that) and 85,000 sedans- behind the Ion, Elantra, Jetta, Mazda3 and probably the Spectra.

sustained sales of no more tha 15,000 p.a. for the Solstice is probably about right though, provide they keep up with new variants, such as the GXP and a proper hardtop coupe, otherwise maybe only 10K or less.

That gives you up to 340K p.a., without the Torrent and Montana (which go to GMC).

[evok]

Purely a matter of opinion, but I think they could do better than that with moderate fleet sales, and with a slightly bigger lineup.

Let's say …

G8 sedan … at higher prices than the Grand Prix 50-75,000 p.a. (down from 160K GP+Bonneville in 2004)

G6 sedan and coupe (rwd) I think they could sustain 100K, at least, if not 125K. That's still down from 160K G6+GA in 2005 and what may be 170K this year.

The right-sized compact rwd sedan and coupe should be able to hit another 125,000 together - say 40,000 coupes (even Mitsubishi should manage that this year, and the tC will do twice that) and 85,000 sedans- behind the Ion, Elantra, Jetta, Mazda3 and probably the Spectra.

sustained sales of no more tha 15,000 p.a. for the Solstice is probably about right though, provide they keep up with new variants, such as the GXP and a proper hardtop coupe, otherwise maybe only 10K or less.

That gives you up to 340K p.a., without the Torrent and Montana (which go to GMC).

The Bonneville in an up market in the late 1990s did not hit the numbers you estimate for an upper midsized sedan. When the G Body Bonneville was recently discontinued in the US, the heavily subsidized sales were in the 20k/yr area. Depending on how the numbers are cut for the Grand Prix, over half of the total production is going to fleet.

Pontiac in the mid-to upper midsized market, has a limited retail exposure in the US.

Any sort of switch to rwd in that segment must take that into account when looking at the potential impact on the market. This is especially true if as a short term fix GM decides to rebadge a Commodore for the US market as originally planned.

A smaller/lower mid rwd coupe/sedan goes up against the same issues in the market. They might fill a small niche but volume over 100k is very optimistic.

If GM is to relaunch Pontiac with a few rwd offerings, GM will have to design the brand around taking a serious sales decline. That would also entail, premium pricing for the segment further limiting the sales volume.

Even at this time, a complete move for Pontiac is still just a dream. The only rwd Pontiac that may be expected in the near term would be a rebadged Commodore. And based upon the initial photos of that vehicle, GM might have another GTO on their hands if they expect large volume. It might fill a niche in the brand,but it will not be volume no matter how good the car is.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

BTW, the Malibu-clone Cutlass was V-6 only. Nice posts! Why should Montana or Torrent go to GMC?

[RBB]

To me, the Pontiac lineup could go all-RWD, or at least mostly RWD coupes and sedans, if you look at the Pontiac/Buick/GMC triumvirate as one brand.

Many in the media and on this board have spoken of the possibility of eliminating either Buick or Pontiac. This consolidation in effect does that, but without the negatives associated with killing a storied nameplate or losing the heritage and brand loyalties that come with it.

When looking at things this way, smaller sales numbers from Pontiac and Buick individually are not as bad, because you're rolling the numbers together with GMC to make one big super-brand - the way Toyota currently combines the Toyota and Scion sales in the states.

Note that I'm talking a complete consolidation - not just Point-of-Sale. Pontiac, Buick, and GMC's vehicles would be channeled into a single R&D department and management infrastructure.

Would Pontiac's sales suffer? Yes, in that they'd no longer be selling SUVs, non-performance oriented cars, and vans. But those types of vehicles would be covered by Buick and GMC. That'd be like complaining that Scion's sales are suffering because they don't sell luxury cars or SUVs - it's just one division of a larger brand.

That's the kind of scenario in which I could envision Pontiac becoming an all-, or at least mostly-RWD. And frankly, I think that makes more sense and would lead to better sales overall than would eliminating either Buick or Pontiac, should things come to that point.

-RBB

Edited June 9, 2006 by RBB

[ehaase]

http://wardsauto.com/ar/buick_pontiac_future/

The last paragraph in the article above should end this discussion. There will be another RWD Pontiac or two, but Pontiac will always have several FWD cars in its lineup, unless GM decides to reduce Pontiac sales radically.

[roopull]

http://wardsauto.com/ar/buick_pontiac_future/

The last paragraph in the article above should end this discussion.  There will be another RWD Pontiac or two, but Pontiac will always have several FWD cars in its lineup, unless GM decides to reduce Pontiac sales radically.

I thought this part was particularly refreshing news...

Asked about the two brands following GM’s shareholders meeting June 6, Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner says the auto maker is moving “very aggressively” toward a unified distribution channel, with fewer models under each brand.

Perhaps this means the end to the Pontiac Mini-Van?!?!

[thegriffon]

http://wardsauto.com/ar/buick_pontiac_future/

The last paragraph in the article above should end this discussion.  There will be another RWD Pontiac or two, but Pontiac will always have several FWD cars in its lineup, unless GM decides to reduce Pontiac sales radically.

It won't, the fact that the "all-rwd" strategy is being "considered" already implies that they are not yet planning to eliminate fwd models. A GM spokesman saying as much doesn't tell you anything.

[thegriffon]

I thought this part was particularly refreshing news...

Perhaps this means the end to the Pontiac Mini-Van?!?!

We already know the Montana is not part of the 2007 minivan lineup.

[evok]

This is what is on the books for Pontiac and what is currently only on the books for Pontiac as of this date:

G6 replacement and NG Solstice.

That is it. The rest is pure GM thinking out in the open!

Edited June 9, 2006 by evok

[bowtie_dude]

This is what is on the books for Pontiac and what is currently only on the books for Pontiac as of this date:

G6 replacement and NG Solstice.

That is it.  The rest is pure GM thinking out in the open!

I actually find that kind of refreshing. Hopefully GM can get some Pontiacs out that don't suffer from the same thing that got the current G6 and upcoming Aura.

[ellives]

... which would be??? (Didn't know the G6 and Aura had been "gotten")

I actually find that kind of refreshing.  Hopefully GM can get some Pontiacs out that don't suffer from the same thing that got the current G6 and upcoming Aura.

[ToniCipriani]

I suppose this is what they are talking about.The rear end does look strikingly similar. But I think when the Aura comes out it the real thing should clear this up a bit. I don't think in real life they look that similar. GM's photographers aren't the best in class you know...

[Sixty8panther]

RWD would make the G6 and/or Aura very appealing to me... as it

stands I'm not a big fan of either. They're good cars for their

respective demographic but still too close to "Cookie-Cutter" sedan

for me to actaully want one. I may get raosted for this but I'll tell

you right now if I needed a small sedan similar to the G6 or Aura I

would just buy a used IS300 with a manual. It may be a Toyota but

it's as close to an old school BMW 2002 or my RWD Maxima as you

can get in 2006.

[xdre]

They did have a split grille to a certain extent...

http://www.gmphotostore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=53217680

Just not the twin kidney I suppose. But yeah, whatever it takes, Pontiac should keep this.

Wow. I don't usually "get" cars from the 30's, but that looks amazing.

I admit to not knowing GM's current structure, but somewhere on the 'net I read (a dangerous thing, I know ) that the current head of Pontiac has almost no power over what happens to the brand's cars--not even the power to veto/change minor styling cues.

If Pontiac is to continue in any form whatsoever, I'd start by changing that. Lutz may be good, but he ain't that good, and he's not getting any younger either. Find somebody with some intelligence and an independent streak, and give him or her the green light to fix it--and get it right the first time--"by any means necessary". Even if it stays a mix of FWD and RWD, Pontiac needs at least one other standout car, and AFAIK, none of GM's truly memorable cars were designed by committee (well, unless you consider a skunkworks a committee, that is :AH-HA_wink: ).

BTW, having said all that, I think a carefully-done rebadging of the VE Commodore--especially the hi-po versions--would be a good start. I say "carefully" because I think part of the reason the GTO flopped so badly (besides the currency exchange rate) is because it looked too much like it should have been a midrange Tempest (or even a Grand Prix) instead of the top-of-the-line bad*ss the name suggests. Had a more aggressive bodykit been a factory option it would have looked more like a "true" GTO (see some of the HSV versions if you doubt), and maybe some of this fumbling around in the dark for the direction Pontiac should go wouldn't have been so necessary. Pontiac should be the maverick--yet profitable--perfomance brand it used to be--and I'm coming around to the idea that it doesn't have to be a volume brand to do so.

Edited June 15, 2006 by xdre

[hyperv6]

Pontiac has had little control over some models going back to the 67 Firebird as it was not what Delorean wanted. He delayed and fought GM on it till they told him to build it or else.

He did try to change it enough to make it their own car but starting late he had to live with only hood and minor trim changes. At least he still had Pontiac power and suspension mods to help.

As time went on and post 1979 most Pontiac became more trim and minor tweeks away from a Chevy. Their last true Pontiac effort was the Fiero and even that was a compromised because of GM involvment and canceling of the car several times.

Today Pontiac is more Suspension tune and body changes as most of the platforms and engines are the same. Pontiac needs to set itself appart and become their own again. If they are to live they have to compete more with those outside GM vs Chevy.

Lets face it today the Pontiac owner is a traditional Pontiac owner which is a dying breed and or a guy who would just be as happy behind a wheel of a Chevy.

I know my time line is not a detailed look at all the Pontiac but if one would look most are not that far from a Chevy and it hurts. Pontiac has for years tried to bring new and different cars. If you look ant many of the cars like the Supercharged Trans Am, The SSEI they made with a V8 and RWD in the 90's and many of the supercharged still born V6, V8 and 4 cylinders one would know those in Pontiac have tried but can see GM stopped all their efforts from production.

[91z4me]

BTW, having said all that, I think a carefully-done rebadging of the VE Commodore--especially the hi-po versions--would be a good start.      I say "carefully" because I think part of the reason the GTO flopped so badly (besides the currency exchange rate)

You do realize that the 5.7L Holden Monaro, which was down on power to the GTO was roughtly $50K and we got the GTO for $33K. Currency rate had NO effect on sales. The higher AUS dollar that we have now will make the sale of Holdens in the states less profitable but it will still be profitable if it is a volume model at Holden, AKA Statesman or Commodore, rather than a VERY low volume car like the Monaro was, originally expect to sell only 5K copies over 3 years!

is because it looked too much like it should have been a midrange Tempest (or even a Grand Prix) instead of the top-of-the-line bad*ss the name suggests. 

GM needed a placeholder in the RWD lineup and the Monaro was given VERY minor changes and brought here as fast as possible. Complaints should be made to the board of the 90s who stopped Oldsmobile from bringing in Holden cars to the US and starting the trend back to RWD sooner.

Had a more aggressive bodykit been a factory option it would have looked more like a "true" GTO (see some of the HSV versions if you doubt)

The Sport Appearance Package was a dealer installed option that ANYONE! could buy for less than $2500 that gave a much more aggressive look. The reason it couldn't be done at the factory is that all the years GTOs were made during a 2 week run at the factory, which had to bring in extra shift people just to get the cars made without impacting the Australian cars and exports to the Mid East.

[xdre]

You do realize that the 5.7L Holden Monaro, which was down on power to the GTO was roughtly $50K and we got the GTO for $33K.

No, it was closer to $43k, but yes I'm aware we got a significant discount.

Currency rate had NO effect on sales.

The car cost more than originally planned. In a market where Ford sells $25k Mustang GTs with similar performance, a $33k GTO with a limited option list--even though more luxurious, and thus, not a direct competitor to the 'Stang--is a tough sale. Particularly in the first year when the GTO was also using the 5.7.

The higher AUS dollar that we have now will make the sale of Holdens in the states less profitable but it will still be profitable if it is a volume model at Holden, AKA Statesman or Commodore, rather than a VERY low volume car like the Monaro was, originally expect to sell only 5K copies over 3 years!

In the quantities needed to sell, I'd imagine the Commodore at least would need to be assembled Stateside. Besides, the UAW would howl bloody murder and I don't think the Aussies have that much extra capacity. But the GTO was projected to sell around 18,000 copies/year.

GM needed a placeholder in the RWD lineup and the Monaro was given VERY minor changes and brought here as fast as possible.  Complaints should be made to the board of the 90s who stopped Oldsmobile from bringing in Holden cars to the US and starting the trend back to RWD sooner.

Agreed. Despite my comments, I'm not a GTO hater, and even priced at $33k I was surprised it didn't sell. Well, hindsight is 20/20.

The Sport Appearance Package was a dealer installed option that ANYONE! could buy for less than $2500 that gave a much more aggressive look.

Personally, I don't think the Sport Appearance Package was aggressive enough, although when it came available it certainly didn't hurt. [edit: I take that last part back. I thought the SAP was just the hood flares and a wheel/tire package. Wrong-o!] Edited June 15, 2006 by xdre