Pontiac: Nothing but rwd cars?

[The O.C.]

No, you got it wrong. A person considering a BMW will never cross shop a Pontiac.

I'd say Acura and low end Infiniti is a better target.

Totally agreed.

While I agree Pontiac moving towards RWD is an intriquing concept, to try to become a "poor man's BMW" would be suicide.

There's alot more to "BMW" than just a tight suspension and manual transmission. Anyone at GM that doesn't understand that, is in serious trouble.

And don't forget the snob factor. Be it a good reason or not, there's tons of people that enjoy having that BMW propeller on the hood.

Like I said before......be Pontiac, be RWD, be exciting, be fast....just don't try to be BMW. You'll fail, Pontiac, BIG TIME.

[The O.C.]

I would disagree.  Some folks might want BMW tightness for a lot less money. 

Like I said.....there's WAY more to a BMW than just a firm suspension.

It will be next to near impossible for a company like General Motors to truly engineer a car or cars to the same level as BMW.....not while they are so dependent on platform sharing and making a certain architecture fit so many different segments of a particular market (rental Impala, luxurious LaCrosse, sporty Grand Prix.....et al)

Even the CTS, as good as it is, will never be as fully accomplished of a driver's car as a BMW.....GM and Cadillac have accepted that they have to make certain compromises in the development of that car to fit what they see is their overall target market. If they happen to snag a few BMW drivers along the way, then that's gravy for them.

BMW only has to appeal to BMW drivers and people wanting those characteristics in their cars.....

.....such as the chassis that can be developed without having to take into account compromises for a softer (or too soft) ride.....the painstaking way they go about insuring every BMW has as close to a 50/50 weight distribution as possible......the inline-6 and V8 engines.....not having to "dumb-down" the engineering of the architecture or powertrains to fit a lower price point.....not to mention all the compromises that GM's legal department forces upon them during development.

I think a whole division of exciting, AMERICAN, RWD cars from Pontiac is an awesome idea. I just hope that they don't try to rebirth themselves as the "American" or "poor man's" BMW or any other make.

[Sixty8panther]

One thing that sux about BMW: the cams are driven by rubber bands.

[Camino LS6]

Like I said.....there's WAY more to a BMW than just a firm suspension.

It will be next to near impossible for a company like General Motors to truly engineer a car or cars to the same level as BMW.....not while they are so dependent on platform sharing and making a certain architecture fit so many different segments of a particular market (rental Impala, luxurious LaCrosse, sporty Grand Prix.....et al)

Even the CTS, as good as it is, will never be as fully accomplished of a driver's car as a BMW.....GM and Cadillac have accepted that they have to make certain compromises in the development of that car to fit what they see is their overall target market.  If they happen to snag a few BMW drivers along the way, then that's gravy for them.

BMW only has to appeal to BMW drivers and people wanting those characteristics in their cars.....

.....such as the chassis that can be developed without having to take into account compromises for a softer (or too soft) ride.....the painstaking way they go about insuring every BMW has as close to a 50/50 weight distribution as possible......the inline-6 and V8 engines.....not having to "dumb-down" the engineering of the architecture or powertrains to fit a lower price point.....not to mention all the compromises that GM's legal department forces upon them during development.

I think a whole division of exciting, AMERICAN, RWD cars from Pontiac is an awesome idea.  I just hope that they don't try to rebirth themselves as the "American" or "poor man's" BMW or any other make.

I think a better way of putting it would be that Pontiac would be the American analog of BMW. Not the same , not trying to be the same, but tapping the same spirit in a wholly American way.

Without the snob factor or its attendant price.

Don't get me wrong, I have driven and enjoyed quite a few BMWs and have always thought highly of them(pre-Bangle anyway). In fact, the M5s I spent time with remain the best all-around cars I have ever driven, despite the fact that they have 2 too many doors. I think it is high time that GM have a division fully dedicated to performance and that Pontiac is a natural for the job.

If they pull this off, I may never buy any new car that doesn't have an arrowhead.

BTW: I did cross-shop BMW and Pontiac when I bought my GTO. The GTO and the 3 were the only cars on the market at the time (2004) that provided what I wanted.

[Camino LS6]

My future?!

[ocnblu]

Hmmm... a Pontiac Grand Amino Acid Edition... rare!

Since we sell BMW, I get to see a fair amount of them come in for collision repair. Believe me, there's quite a cross section of BMW owners, from the young mother/horse woman who took her new-style 3 to the farm regularly and had the interior looking like... a farm truck, to the elderly lady who parks by feel and wanted her 3 "touched up" (all over!), to the young kid with an early-80's 318 who couldn't afford $350 to repair his rear body panel so a broken taillight could be replaced. Once in a while you come across a cool person who actually appreciates the driving aspects of the BMW. Then of course you have the snobs who expect the world because of what kind of car they drive. Those are the most numerous.

I personally would rather drive a sexy, modern RWD Pontiac with killer looks, plenty of horsepower, and GM's easy serviceability any day.

Edited June 2, 2006 by ocnblu

[VenSeattle]

From reading what I have so far, GM is interested in a more "sophisticated" approach with Pontiac. Chevrolet will have the volume RWD sedan + pony car.

I get the feeling that GM will be pushing all three brands (Buick, Pontiac, & GMC) as premium brands before the decade is out. It makes sense.

- Chevrolet & Chevrolet Trucks will be volume.

- Saturn & SAAB will be GM Europe but in the US.

- Buick, Pontiac, GMC become distinct premium brands under one rooftop.

- Cadillac & HUMMER remain luxury/Ultra luxury divisions.

The remaining puzzle pieces were Buick & Pontiac. I don't foresee overlap problems with Pontiac going RWD & Buick going Chinese/Holden Luxury. The next LaCrosse with be GM’s own MKZ on Epsilon II. The Enclave & ‘Royaum replacement’ will round out Buick’s luxury portfolio. I still wish GM would give Buick the next-gen Theta and call it Rendezvous. None of those will compete with proposed RWD Pontiacs or other GM offerings. Honestly, even with all the luxury in Chinese Buicks, Buick & Cadillac are completely different creatures in the same luxury arena.

Product isn't the only problem here though... A unified message and a convincing dealership/ownership experience are also key to convincing the public that Buick, Pontiac, & GMC are all three premium brands. It looks like the product is coming, but unfortunately, BPG dealers are the weakest link here.

GM needs to:

- Continue consolidating BPG under one rooftop

- Increase GMC & Pontiac warranties to match Buick's

- Promote all three as premium brands

If GM needs help understanding how to successfully manage multiple brands under one rooftop then research Lincoln-Mercury. I'm not referring to L-M's marketing... just how the L-M dealerships manage a "unified/premium ownership experience" regardless of brand. A Milan buyer/owner is treated as well as a Navigator buyer/owner.

Depending on BPG dealer... you'll pay Buick/Denali prices and get treated like a Sunfire owner. Yippy! $40k-$50k well spent on an ownership experience! Perhaps GM should consider creating a "premium ownership experience" package and expand the "Professional Grade" title to include this... Market it and use it for all three: Buick, Pontiac, & GMC.

[ToniCipriani]

Totally agreed.

While I agree Pontiac moving towards RWD is an intriquing concept, to try to become a "poor man's BMW" would be suicide.

There's alot more to "BMW" than just a tight suspension and manual transmission.  Anyone at GM that doesn't understand that, is in serious trouble.

And don't forget the snob factor.  Be it a good reason or not, there's tons of people that enjoy having that BMW propeller on the hood.

Like I said before......be Pontiac, be RWD, be exciting, be fast....just don't try to be BMW.  You'll fail, Pontiac, BIG TIME.

Well, I don't see why it's wrong to use BMW's lineup as a reference. Being a "poor man's BMW" is rather broad. It would be good to see Pontiac get the good handling and performance of a BMW at a low price (higher than Chevy of course), just not blatantly imitate them.

Just don't put Pontiac directly against BMW. Now THAT is suicide. Aim lower at the premium brands.

[ToniCipriani]

From reading what I have so far, GM is interested in a more "sophisticated" approach with Pontiac. Chevrolet will have the volume RWD sedan + pony car.

I get the feeling that GM will be pushing all three brands (Buick, Pontiac, & GMC) as premium brands before the decade is out. It makes sense.

- Chevrolet & Chevrolet Trucks will be volume.

- Saturn & SAAB will be GM Europe but in the US.

- Buick, Pontiac, GMC become distinct premium brands under one rooftop.

- Cadillac & HUMMER remain luxury/Ultra luxury divisions.

The remaining puzzle pieces were Buick & Pontiac. I don't foresee overlap problems with Pontiac going RWD & Buick going Chinese/Holden Luxury. The next LaCrosse with be GM’s own MKZ on Epsilon II. The Enclave & ‘Royaum replacement’ will round out Buick’s luxury portfolio. I still wish GM would give Buick the next-gen Theta and call it Rendezvous.  None of those will compete with proposed RWD Pontiacs or other GM offerings. Honestly, even with all the luxury in Chinese Buicks, Buick & Cadillac are completely different creatures in the same luxury arena.

Product isn't the only problem here though... A unified message and a convincing dealership/ownership experience are also key to convincing the public that Buick, Pontiac, & GMC are all three premium brands. It looks like the product is coming, but unfortunately, BPG dealers are the weakest link here.

GM needs to:

- Continue consolidating BPG under one rooftop

- Increase GMC & Pontiac warranties to match Buick's

- Promote all three as premium brands

If GM needs help understanding how to successfully manage multiple brands under one rooftop then research Lincoln-Mercury. I'm not referring to L-M's marketing... just how the L-M dealerships manage a "unified/premium ownership experience" regardless of brand. A Milan buyer/owner is treated as well as a Navigator buyer/owner.

Depending on BPG dealer... you'll pay Buick/Denali prices and get treated like a Sunfire owner. Yippy! $40k-$50k well spent on an ownership experience! Perhaps GM should consider creating a "premium ownership experience" package and expand the "Professional Grade" title to include this... Market it and use it for all three: Buick, Pontiac, & GMC.

Good read.

It does makes sense and it appears that this approach has been used in Canada so far. We have the blue GM (Chevrolet/Oldsmobile), red GM dealers (Buick/Pontiac/GMC), some paired with Cadillac and Euro GM (Saturn/Saab).

Sort of sounds like Regular, Extra and Premium gas.

[balthazar]

I think a better way of putting it would be that Pontiac would be the American analog of BMW. Not the same , not trying to be the same, but tapping the same spirit in a wholly American way. Without the snob factor or its attendant price.

Absolutely right.

...there's quite a cross section of BMW owners... 

Then of course you have the snobs who expect the world because of what kind of car they drive.  Those are the most numerous.

I personally would rather drive a sexy, modern RWD Pontiac with killer looks, plenty of horsepower, and GM's easy serviceability any day.

Agreed 100%!

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed Balthazar.. those two quotes nailed it. Like I

said I just hope the Arrowhead stays as well as the

twin port, any twin port even the one off of late 30s

Pontiacs. I'd also love to see the Idian head return

in an emblem or what not.

[evok]

Agreed Balthazar.. those two quotes nailed it. Like I

said I just hope the Arrowhead stays as well as the

twin port, any twin port even the one off of late 30s

Pontiacs. I'd also love to see the Idian head return

in an emblem or what not.

IIRC the first use of the split grill was in 1959.

[ToniCipriani]

IIRC the first use of the split grill was in 1959.

They did have a split grille to a certain extent...

http://www.gmphotostore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=53217680

Just not the twin kidney I suppose. But yeah, whatever it takes, Pontiac should keep this.

[evok]

They did have a split grille to a certain extent...

http://www.gmphotostore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=53217680

Just not the twin kidney I suppose. But yeah, whatever it takes, Pontiac should keep this.

1959 MY

http://www.maddansk.net/images/Divimages/a...Convertible.jpg

1958 MY

http://www.black-plate.com/images/58pontiac.gif

Edited June 2, 2006 by evok

[pow]

If GM is smart they will not listen to any Pontiac enthusiast if they make a serious attempt at rebuilding the brand.

Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking.

That includes:

The arrow head.

The split grill.

Target buyer.

Model names.

Everything.

Traditional Pontiac buyers that long for the good old days that have not existed for the brand in 35+ years are a dieing breed.

Pontiac needs a fresh start all around if they believe they have a shot at turning the brand around.  Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

Traditional buyer will be attracted to the brand no matter what GM pushes.  The problem they face is convincing the other 16.4 million buyer, Pontiac is worth a look.

Pontiac has a lot of baggage - For that very reason, everything has to be on the table.

How about pronouncing it differently? Not PAHHHNt-EEE-YACK but Pohhhn-TEE-ac.

Edited June 2, 2006 by empowah

[Northstar]

Like I said.....there's WAY more to a BMW than just a firm suspension.

It will be next to near impossible for a company like General Motors to truly engineer a car or cars to the same level as BMW.....not while they are so dependent on platform sharing and making a certain architecture fit so many different segments of a particular market (rental Impala, luxurious LaCrosse, sporty Grand Prix.....et al)

Even the CTS, as good as it is, will never be as fully accomplished of a driver's car as a BMW.....GM and Cadillac have accepted that they have to make certain compromises in the development of that car to fit what they see is their overall target market.  If they happen to snag a few BMW drivers along the way, then that's gravy for them.

BMW only has to appeal to BMW drivers and people wanting those characteristics in their cars.....

.....such as the chassis that can be developed without having to take into account compromises for a softer (or too soft) ride.....the painstaking way they go about insuring every BMW has as close to a 50/50 weight distribution as possible......the inline-6 and V8 engines.....not having to "dumb-down" the engineering of the architecture or powertrains to fit a lower price point.....not to mention all the compromises that GM's legal department forces upon them during development.

I think a whole division of exciting, AMERICAN, RWD cars from Pontiac is an awesome idea.  I just hope that they don't try to rebirth themselves as the "American" or "poor man's" BMW or any other make.

They won't be able to give buyers the whole package a BMW delievers because it would be too expensive, but there's no reason Pontiac can't have the best-driving mainstream vehicles. There are plenty of people who would love to have a car drive as well as a BMW, but don't really care if it's luxurious and don't want/can't afford to pay for it.

Look at where BMW started, think 2002. That's where Pontiac should aim for. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, BMW's didn't start out being luxury machines, just ultimate driving machines.

[balthazar]

Hard to get more ironic that this: BMW 'borrowed' The Ultimate Driving machine from '60s GTO advertising.

Pontiac used split grilles from '35-40, tho most historians regard '59 as the 'first' year, likely because most historians don't ever dig deep enough.

Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking. That includes:

The arrow head.

The split grill.

Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

Neither will changing the marque's emblem or ditching one of the longest running design cues in the industry.

[hyperv6]

Don't worry about the other cars as much as just giving Pontiac a proper modern performance image and quality.

BMW is BMW so just let them be, it has worked well for Audi buy doing their own identity and own thing.

If Pontiac was given a identity that set it apart from not only other GM car but the others it would compete against and it would make it an attractive alternitive.

Not too many companies today are building original cars and here is a line and time to do it. What have you got to lose. Being kept with Buick would allow them to keep this a lower volume car and do things they could not afford to risk on say a Chevy.

Lexus just trys to shadow Benz and BMW. They to make a great car at a better price but they are still not being very original. They are far from alone from originality.

Audi has done AWD and was doing very well with original styling till they started to share with VW. But with the W engines and drive lines they are not shadowing BMW or Benz and have carved a nich in the below 45K area.

As I have stated Pontiac needs to think outside of the box and be their own company in styling and options. Going RWD is a good start but keep going.

Some things can be retained like the Arrow head but do a restyle like Caddy did. Update it to a new century and make it Aluminum, not red enamal. Give it a modern look of precieved quality when you look at it. Precieved quality is more than half the battle and change can send this signal

The twin grill thing can be toned down like the Fiero GT was, it is there but not in your face. Or you could do a 1960 like front end It sold well and did not share the twin front and was great looking

Lets face it the Charger is not the most got the best face on the front end but it is different and people are buying it. It looks more truck than car but is working.

Pontiac needs to do with it's line up like Chevy has done with the ZO6! Give the public killer performance at a bargin price. Out run cars that are thousands more and skin it in killer looks.

The ZO6 at 70k is killing cars at nearly twice the price. Do that in a Pontiac in styling people would want to be seen in and you will sell cars. I am not saying that they should sell Pontiacs at 70K but they could do 70K performance at 30-40K.

GM will have a line of V6 and V8 engines that are faily cheap to build and are world class performers. Add this to the plain fact it cost no more to to style an ugly car vs a killer car.

Yes it may lack some in the ultra high quality of materials vs Benz and BMW but at half the cost in killer looks many will accept the car for what it is just as the ZO6 has been. Just because some materials may not be ultra quality still does not mean it would not have excellent qualtity build materials used in its construction.

Also build only top line cars not base cars. They all should have the top suspension and engine available, mechanically they need to be the best they can be. You could still leave many options up to the buyer on the inside as to seat material, sound system, sun roof etc.

The lack of base rental like cars would give better image and look to the whole line. The best example is the lowest GP vs the top GXP. the bigger better wheels and spoiler help change the cars image on the road. How it looks going down the road is your best advertising.

Even with my own Comp G I have had people that many tell me they don't like GP's but like mine. It has the top line wheels filling the wheel wells and all the SPO parts on it and other parts change the personality of the cars looks down the road.

Lets face it Pontiac can afford the to be a Nich line so lets take advantage of this now. If done properly the Buick, Pontiac GMC dealers could be made into a ver busy dealer and fun dealer to buy from.

The one very most important part of bringng Pontiac back is get the cars 100% right the first time as your not going to get a second chance!!!!!!!

[Sixty8panther]

Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

It actaully could IMHO... it worked wonders for Chrysler!

Balthazar: Neither will changing the marque's emblem or ditching one of the longest running design cues in the industry.

And yet this basic form of reinvention already resulted in Oldsmobile's demise.

[ToniCipriani]

Also build only top line cars not base cars. They all should have the top suspension and engine available, mechanically they need to be the best they can be. You could still leave many options up to the buyer on the inside as to seat material, sound system, sun roof  etc.

I don't quite agree with this one. Don't forget after all from a price point Pontiac is still slotted between Chevy and Buick Making all mechanical options standard adds quite a bit to the tag.

What they did with the Solstice right now is nice. They have a Club Sport package, which strips out the toys but adds every single performance option.

[evok]

Pontiac used split grilles from '35-40, tho most historians regard '59 as the 'first' year, likely because most historians don't ever dig deep enough.

Yea - OK

http://info.detnews.com/dn/joyrides/2004/w...4/34pontiac.jpg

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/38pontia...e6cyl3speed.jpg

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/39pontwo...n_6cyl_3spd.jpg

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/39poncon...le8cyl_KARS.jpg

[hyperv6]

I don't quite agree with this one. Don't forget after all from a price point Pontiac is still slotted between Chevy and Buick Making all mechanical options standard adds quite a bit to the tag.

What they did with the Solstice right now is nice. They have a Club Sport package, which strips out the toys but adds every single performance option.

At this point Pontiac would be not between Buick and Chevy as Saturn has taken this spot.

Pontiac would slot in equal with Buick but with a type different car. There goal is performance vehicles only and leave the Luxury and comfort end to Buick. Buick could be the perfect place to send the Camary owners as they get older. It is not a sin to make an car for those 50-70 as there are a hell of a lot of people in that age and they are not all going to pay 50K-75K for a Caddy.

Pontiac would be slotted for the owner in the early 30-late 50's that sill like to drive vs just getting there in comfort only.

Buick and Pontiac would be what GM has seldom seen, two divisions at the same level with two different product lines. They both would not offer cars for everyone and would not offer the same cars as each other. Think of it like BMW and the M series, twin brothers from differnt mothers. They may be base on some of the same parts but are two different beast on the street with two different jobs.

Much more similar to how the top Lexus is more luxury vs the smaller Lexus that are more performance. I would make Pontiac more perfomance than the smaller Lexus though.

As for the Solstice It is almost exactly just what I described but for the base engine. The club car is the GXP suspension just less the Turbo. Pontiac should make the GXP standard and you can add the air or what ever you want inside. If want a GXP with crank windows just fill out the sheet and order a lite car.

One last thought offer all models with a full line of available SPO parts and go to the aftermarket. Let the tuners have their way with these cars just as Chevy did with the SBC in the 50's. The owners could modify and custom their rides to make the car there car. Also race what models you can race in the SCCA with factory support. It promotes the car and helps in development. People who buy performance watch racing and know racing. They know NASCAR is not a real street car but a SCCA M5 is near what they can buy.

You need to make it cool to own a Pontiac again! Make Pontiac a contender not a pretender! Make it something someone would want to hang a post up of on the garage or office wall.

Many thought losing the silver streaks in 1957 were the end of Pontiac when in truth they were only the begining of the best years they ever had.

Olds was done when they slapped Cutlass on nearly every car they sold! The new designs and emblems were just too late.

Edited June 3, 2006 by hyperv6

[Sixty8panther]

Olds was done when they slapped Cutlass on nearly every car they sold! The new designs and emblems were just too late.

I disagree.... Oldsmobile tried to be an Acura/Lexus competitor.

Poeple who want Lexuses & Acuras buy.... ... Rebadged Toyotas & Hondas.

Oldsmobile was an American car brand, if they had sold a GREAT American car

with the proper advertising & quality the Rocket logo would have not stopped

sales from doing well.

[evok]

Poeple (sic) who want Lexuses & Acuras buy....    ... Rebadged Toyotas & Hondas.

Besides the Lexus LX - all products are unique in the US market.

[Camino LS6]

Besides the Lexus LX - all products are unique in the US market.

Perhaps he should have said re-badged versions of Japanese-market Toyotas and Hondas.

[evok]

Perhaps he should have said re-badged versions of Japanese-market Toyotas and Hondas.

And for the most part he would still be wrong.

Lexus GX is sold as the Toyota Prada in certain markets and the euro Accord is the Acura TSX.

And still few in the US market would even know that.

[Bimmer325]

Perhaps he should have said re-badged versions of Japanese-market Toyotas and Hondas.

The IS, GS, and upcoming LS are all exclusive to Lexus.

[Flybrian]

I disagree.... Oldsmobile tried to be an Acura/Lexus competitor.

Poeple who want Lexuses & Acuras buy....    ... Rebadged Toyotas & Hondas.

Oldsmobile was an American car brand, if they had sold a GREAT American car

with the proper advertising & quality the Rocket logo would have not stopped

sales from doing well.

The new Oldsmobiles were of a higher quality than ever before. Do the research. And the lineup was very American. Where do you get this crap?

[Satty]

Where do you get this crap?

Drano and peyote would be my guess.

[Cory Wolfe]

Evok hates my breed, Sixty8 is still crazy, and I don't know what to make of any of this.

Alright. Removing the split grill and arrowhead from Pontiac would be like doing the same with BMW. It's the brand's identify and regardless of the image it has, that will not solve anything as long as the brand is still called Pontiac. Neither will name changes or anything like that. It's all about the vehicles and whether or not the public decides to give them a chance. Things like competitive vehicles, good pricing, good marketing, and good dealership experience will. Case in point, look at the Solstice... and it's not even the best that it could possibly be.

[Sixty8panther]

If you don't see the Aurora, Alero & Intrigue as an attempt

to Euro-Nippoise the brand than I can't convince you

otherwise. I am entitled to my oppinion and I think the last

true Oldsmobies were the Cutlass badged cars, yes even the

Cieras, the B-body Custom Cruiser & the Toronado Trofeo.

Those still had classic styling cues and hit their demographic

like a smart bomb. So you don't want super conservative

styling a bench seat & coulm shifted auto? Well many of

Oldsmobile's customers did. THe Aurora was/is a great car

but it should not have been the only big Oldsmobile in the

lineup. It has stylig derivitive of an offspring of a Trans Am

& 1990s Taurus.

Reinventing a brand like Olds was a dumb idea... I think

any layman without any insight into the industry can tell you

that Olds tried to reinvent the wheel and failed. Time might

have helped but those newer cutting edge designs would

have needed a few conservative siblings in order for the

brand to live on into the 21st century.

I do not have any hate for the Aurora or even the Shortstar

but I do not think they appealed to the people who walked

into Olds showrooms.

[Flybrian]

It has stylig derivitive of an offspring of a Trans Am

& 1990s Taurus.

This proves you have no clue. The bubble Taurus debuted after the Aurora. Nice job.

The Cieras had classic styling cues? Jesus. The Custom Cruiser was such a success it was pitched in its second model year? The late Toronados bore no resemblance to any of the classic Oldsmobiles beyond hidden headlamps. They had smooth, uninterrupted lines, restrained chroming, and sophisticated technology.

Oldsmobile was always about three things - performance, sophistication, and technology. How was the Eighty-Eight performance? How was the Custom Cruiser sophistication? How was the Cutlass Ciera technological? Answer - they weren't in any way. I don't quite understand what a 'real' Oldsmobile is to you, but if you somehow think that clunky old rebadges like those were somehow more true to the Olds spirit than vehicles that rode new platforms with new innovations and exclusive powertrains, I don't know what to tell you.

But however you rationalize, tell it to General Motors because the Cutlass, Eighty-/Ninety-Eight, and Cruiser went away, those customers simply bought Buicks. When GM dumped the new Oldsmobiles and Olds as a whole, those Aurora, Intrigue, and Alero customers went away. For good.

[pow]

This proves you have no clue. The bubble Taurus debuted after the Aurora. Nice job.

The Cieras had classic styling cues? Jesus. The Custom Cruiser was such a success it was pitched in its second model year? The late Toronados bore no resemblance to any of the classic Oldsmobiles beyond hidden headlamps. They had smooth, uninterrupted lines, restrained chroming, and sophisticated technology.

Oldsmobile was always about three things - performance, sophistication, and technology. How was the Eighty-Eight performance? How was the Custom Cruiser sophistication? How was the Cutlass Ciera technological? Answer - they weren't in any way. I don't quite understand what a 'real' Oldsmobile is to you, but if you somehow think that clunky old rebadges like those were somehow more true to the Olds spirit than vehicles that rode new platforms with new innovations and exclusive powertrains, I don't know what to tell you.

But however you rationalize, tell it to General Motors because the Cutlass, Eighty-/Ninety-Eight, and Cruiser went away, those customers simply bought Buicks. When GM dumped the new Oldsmobiles and Olds as a whole, those Aurora, Intrigue, and Alero customers went away. For good.

Agreed. The "new" Oldsmobiles were very American, but also very '90s. What Sixty8 wants is '60s American.

[Robert Hall]

Agreed. The "new" Oldsmobiles were very American, but also very '90s. What Sixty8 wants is '60s American.

Yes...it's too bad they weren't more successful. Olds was trying to build modern cars and attract younger buyers and get away from the stale fogey image of the outdated Ciera and bland 88/98s.

[ocnblu]

And they kind of did it overnight, plus they got shy about putting "Oldsmobile" anywhere on the cars for a while, and they changed their emblem. Too much change, too quickly, imo, without a plan to ride out the loss of traditional customers until the new cars could prove themselves.

[evok]

Yes...it's too bad they weren't more successful.  Olds was trying to build modern cars and attract younger buyers and get away from the stale fogey image of the outdated Ciera and bland 88/98s.

For their time, the first and second generation Aurora were the best thought out vehicles GM made. I really liked getting them as company vehicles. And the Intrigue was my favorite W with the Shortstar. In hind sight - I think they killed the wrong brand. Buick should have seen the axe fall instead. Olds had somewhat of momentum where a little bit of follow through by GM could have saved it. Plus the demographics would not have hurt Olds with Old appealing to a yonger crowd with the Achieva. The G6 as an Achieva might have done well.

[evok]

And they kind of did it overnight, plus they got shy about putting "Oldsmobile" anywhere on the cars for a while, and they changed their emblem.  Too much change, too quickly, imo, without a plan to ride out the loss of traditional customers until the new cars could prove themselves.

The marketing killed it. By the time GM fixed the marketing was when they were phasing the brand out.

It is sad but to this day when I think Oldmobile I think Cutlass, not the John Rock vehicles. And as I said above, I really liked the Olds lineup in the end.

[evok]

Evok hates my breed,. . . 

Nah - I do not hate Pontiac, I just think it is going to take a lot of resources and a lot of luck to fix the brand. Both of which GM does not seem to have a lot of these days.

Edited June 3, 2006 by evok

[hyperv6]

Buick I think was saved by only one car and that was the Lesabre. Many of the folks who bought it were the same that used to buy Olds.

The key is to make Pontiac a true performance line and so different from what else GM is offereing that it will make it's own place in the market.

But if they just keep making a fancy Chevy, Pontiac will die just just as Olds did.

Lets face it GM is Damned if they do and Damned if they don't with Pontiac. The run the risk of losing near 500,000 sales and market share. But they also risk losing a chunk of money that they could used else where to save the corperation somewhere else if it fails.

I love Pontiac but see this as like someone with a leg infection. You don't want to lose the foot and want to try what ever you can to save it but it is not worth killing the person just to save a foot. Life goes on!

If they are going to do this they need to do it right or not at all.

Edited June 4, 2006 by hyperv6

[evok]

Lets face it GM is Damned if they do and Damned if they don't with Pontiac. The run the risk of losing near 500,000 sales and market share. But they also risk losing a chunk of money that they could use else where to save the corpertation somewhere else if it fails.

I love Pontiac but see this as like someone with a leg infection. You don't want to lose the foot and want to try what ever you can to save it but it is not worth killing the person just to save a foot. Life goes on!

If they are going to do this they need to do it right or not at all.

Could not agree more.

[wildcat]

But isn't the situation at least slightly different? The fact that the three brands have been combined into one sales channel? Buick is propped up by Pontiac which is propped up by GMC. Won't that give them the time they need?

[hyperv6]

But isn't the situation at least slightly different?  The fact that the three brands have been combined into one sales channel?  Buick is propped up by Pontiac which is propped up by GMC.  Won't that give them the time they need?

I may be wrong but I think it will help give them a better chance and help save more money vs trying to save three different divisions independently.

The key question is will they make all the right move if they try to save them or will it be a aborted effort after spending money they could use giving the stronger divisions more development?

I feel better with the managment in place now to do it vs those in place when they tried to revamp Olds, but it would still be a gamble.

I would be glad to see a division with four Buicks and four Pontiacs. It's better to be smaller and stronger than in the dust bin of history.

If the present managment can save Saturn as it looks like they might, I would be willing to let them try to save Buick and Pontiac, or at least devise a plan to see if it can reasonably be done.

But it is easy to think this way when it is not your money or job.

I do not know if a Opel/ Saturn thing would work using Buick, Pontiac, GMC/Holden. It would reduce cost and fall in line with the world platform plan. I do not know the new Holden line very well and I am unsure how they could be morphed into Pontiac, Buick. But it is a though.

I am just glad it is not my call because I just don't know what I would do.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I think it is interesting what is being said. Evok hit the mark with his Oldsmobile comments. Sixty Eight remembers Oldsmobile for what it was and longs for that Oldsmobile.

The others who like the new Oldsmobile

The new Oldsmobile failed. I do not like that it did, but it is something as an Oldsmobile enthusiast I had to accept. Out of those cars, it will be the 1995-1999 Aurora that is remembered. It already is when people think Oldsmobile. The others will be forgotten. Sometimes I feel and think GM wants to forget the 1997-2004 Oldsmobile too. I notice when it mentions Oldsmobile now it always shows one from the 1950's-1980's up to the early 1990's.

Many will still say Intrigue should have been called Cutlass.....

As an Oldsmobile owner and loyalist, I did not not go out and buy a Buick.

Most have not gone to Buick. I can tell you where Oldsmobile owners went:

1. We have kept our cars and continue to drive them.

2. They moved on to other brands OUTSIDE GM and NOT to BUICK.

*** If they had, Buick would be in a better position and those sales would have been absorbed and they were not.

3. They continue to buy used Oldsmobiles.

4. As the admin on Oldsmobile Forums, I can tell you we have younger members. They are buying older Oldsmobiles(Cutlass, Ninety Eight, Eighty Eight, Toronado and Ciera).

5. GM ASSUMED that we would go to other GM divisions. It did not happen.

I know quite a few moved on to Lincoln( Town Car etc), Mercury(Grand Marquis and others), Acura and some other import brands. I can tell you I have seen most used Oldsmobiles at Nissan and Honda dealerships. This was the very thing GM did not want to happen.

I even admit some of the Nissans and Mitsubishi styling cues remind me of Oldsmobiles(the rooflines, split grilles etc.)

Pontiac and Buick are in a dilemma. It needs to be fixed. Time is of importance and it is something they do not have. I like all the GM divisions, and I want to see them succeed. I am a fan of past Pontiacs and some Buicks. The only way I see Pontiac and Buick making it is to become Holden North America. Think of Holden (Buick) and HSV (Pontiac). Now modify that to and extent for the American market. Holden is one line. Buick, Pontiac and GMC are fast becoming one line.

The Buick and Pontiac people here are going through what the Oldsmobile people went through years ago. I was talked down to, talked at and told to get over it.

Not the same thing when you experience it when it is happening to your favorite GM division is it?

Be sure of one thing... When it is all said and done with Buick and Pontiac, some will not like what happens and takes place. Some will have to embrace what happens. Some will leave all together and not look back. Some will long for what was and not what is.

The last Toronado was based on past Toronados. I ought to know because I was the one who sent them the idea the used. I can even tell what years it came from too. It was very Oldsmobile. I posted them on the old Cheers and Gears board along with the letter.

Edited June 4, 2006 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[regfootball]

word

Hmmm... a Pontiac Grand Amino Acid Edition... rare!

Since we sell BMW, I get to see a fair amount of them come in for collision repair.  Believe me, there's quite a cross section of BMW owners, from the young mother/horse woman who took her new-style 3 to the farm regularly and had the interior looking like... a farm truck, to the elderly lady who parks by feel and wanted her 3 "touched up" (all over!), to the young kid with an early-80's 318 who couldn't afford $350 to repair his rear body panel so a broken taillight could be replaced.  Once in a while you come across a cool person who actually appreciates the driving aspects of the BMW.  Then of course you have the snobs who expect the world because of what kind of car they drive.  Those are the most numerous.

I personally would rather drive a sexy, modern RWD Pontiac with killer looks, plenty of horsepower, and GM's easy serviceability any day.

[regfootball]

Yes...it's too bad they weren't more successful.  Olds was trying to build modern cars and attract younger buyers and get away from the stale fogey image of the outdated Ciera and bland 88/98s.

right around the time of the whole Honda and Toyota Consumer Reports media groundswell

Olds had no chance

[pow]

right around the time of the whole Honda and Toyota Consumer Reports media groundswell

Olds had no chance

No AFAIK the media loved the new Olds... hell, I have the 9/99 issue of C&D with me, and they ranked the Alero third in a $20K family sedan comparo, beating the Camry (4th) and Malibu (7th)...

"First the Aurora, then the Intrigue, now the Alero. If Olds doesn't know it off soon, it'll emerge as one of the world's great car companies. GM will hate us for saying so, but the Alero makes you wonder why anyone would buy a Pontiac Grand Am."

"... best-in-class 0.81 g worth of skidpad grip. Combine that with the most effective brakes... and the Alero scores a 10 in our handling category. This automobile simply took a butcher's cleaver to the diabolical roads of southern Ohio."

"... if your daily commute includes mostly fast sweepers, deadly hairpins, and decreasing-radius oh-my-Gods, the Alero is your mount. 'I never thought I'd see a small Olds outhustle and outhandle the Japanese,' said Spence. The Bolero Alero."

I keenly remember R&T gushing over the Alero, too, and M/T (back in '97) comparing the Intrigue favorably with the "new" Camry and Maxima.

GM killed the wrong brand, or at least the wrong cars. Imagine a Buick Aurora...

[Sixty8panther]

Ninety Eight makes an interesting argument... I think

you're right about most Olds customers being lost to

non-GM divisions. In any case I have no hate

for the cars Oldsmobile turned out in their last decade

of existance but I do think they told their core

demographic to F*** off. No bench seats, no chrome

grille & classic rocket logo, no full size land barge &

worst of all no brand identity. As a kid I remember

thinking the new Oldsmobiles were very cool and

beleived the hype about the new products but now in

retrospect it was a poor business decision to try to

make a Lexus/Acura fighter out of Olds. Like I said

even if they had kept one big & one mid sized model

in the Olds lineup with the traditional styling and a

more conservative approach to the interior the shift

from the 1980s to the 2000s would have not been

as drastic and disconcerting for thier traditional

customers.

The G-body Cutlass of the late 1980s (like the one

that was supposed to be my first car) will always be

one of the last proud moments in Oldsmobile's

history. Those cars needed no excuse, they sold &

sold like hotcakes.

empowah:

Now in 2006 you can have a Buick Aurora... but it's

called the Buick Lucerne. Mechanically that's what

you're getting.

[Flybrian]

Like I said even if they had kept one big & one mid sized model

in the Olds lineup with the traditional styling and a

more conservative approach to the interior the shift

from the 1980s to the 2000s would have not been

as drastic and disconcerting for thier traditional

customers.

Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight - fullsize, bench seats, column shift, chrome (with 1997+ Regency trim) - 1992-1999.

Oldsmobile Cutlass - midsize, 4/6cyl, Cutlass Ciera successor - 1997-1999.

They kept those transition cars, Sixty, and no one bought them.

[Robert Hall]

Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight - fullsize, bench seats, column shift, chrome (with 1997+ Regency trim) - 1992-1999.

Oldsmobile Cutlass - midsize, 4/6cyl, Cutlass Ciera successor - 1997-1999.

They kept those transition cars, Sixty, and no one bought them.

True 'nuff, but that '97-99 Cutlass was a lame rebadge of the Malibu..pointless, considering the Alero was about the same size..

[cavalier36]

I just dont see them making all Pontiac cars RWD.. atleast not the G6.. Id keep the G6 FWD.. here is what id do to Pontiac..

solstice: add a hardtop version,

G3: this would be a new rwd small car, based on a long wheelbase kappa platform.. it would come in coupe and sedan models..

G5: would be replaced by the G3..

G6: this would be Pontiac's sole FWD car.. it would stay the same except i would drop the 3.9L and have the 3.6L dohc V6 as the top engine.. this is likely to happen in 2008 anyways..

GTO: a new one would be built on the zeta platform.. more retro styled..

G8/grand prix: this replace the grand prix, it would ride on the zeta platform and would essentially be a four door GTO.. but unlike the GTO it would come standard with a V6 engine..

Vibe: bye bye.. if there was to be a new vibe id move it over to saturn or chevrolet..

torrent: it would replace its arrowhead logo with a GMC logo..

SV8: already dead..

bonneville: id think about bringing it back on the long wheelbase Zeta..