Pontiac: Nothing but rwd cars?

[loki]

Well if GM does it right, it will work. I don't think we will be seeing the 3.9 in RWD cars. The 3.6 is already used in RWD cars, and nothing will need to be modified. The 3.9 however, is not used in any RWD cars, and would need to be modified.

why would the 3.9 need to be modified? it replaced the 3.8L in the impala, and it was available for the last gen camaro, now maybe you're talking about motor mount locations, but it shouldn't be hard to move the exhaust for it, either.

yes the 3.6 is allready around in rwd's, but how would the mounting be different than the LSx engines, depends on that more than it's allready in rwd apps, IMHO.

[ToniCipriani]

why would the 3.9 need to be modified?  it replaced the 3.8L in the impala, and it was available for the last gen camaro,    now maybe you're talking about motor mount locations, but it shouldn't be hard to move the exhaust for it, either.

yes the 3.6 is allready around in rwd's, but how would the mounting be different than the LSx engines, depends on that more than it's allready in rwd apps, IMHO.

AFAIK the 3800 in the Impala was a Series II, which was only used on W-Bodies and G-Bodies.

[sciguy_0504]

Great, great news. It may sacrifice volume a little bit, especially in the beginning, but this is what is needed for perception and perception is an ingredient in the big stew called "what is needed to sell cars."

BTW, if you want a FWD car or a real SUV, please see other GM divisions.

[Camino LS6]

Relax Reg, this is a good idea. It is likely the only idea that will keep Pontiac alive and viable going forward.

Consider these points:

Pontiac is not a stand alone brand at the retail level, it has been paired with Buick and or GMC for very long time and now all three are combined into a single sales channel officially. Buick will continue to offer upscale FWD at the same locations where these new RWD Pontiacs will be sold.

Zeta is designed to support AWD as are many upcoming GM architectures and good AWD systems are designed on a platform with a RWD bias. I think you can rest assured that at least some of these new performance Pontiacs will be AWD.

Volume and fleet are better handled by other divisions of GM, as are trucks and SUVs. This plan would make Pontiac the most focused brand in the GM portfolio and take major steps toward eliminating divisional overlap.

Just think about it for a while and I think you'll see the merit of this idea. The alternative would be eliminating the brand.

[CaddyXLR-V]

why would the 3.9 need to be modified?  it replaced the 3.8L in the impala, and it was available for the last gen camaro,    now maybe you're talking about motor mount locations, but it shouldn't be hard to move the exhaust for it, either.

yes the 3.6 is allready around in rwd's, but how would the mounting be different than the LSx engines, depends on that more than it's allready in rwd apps, IMHO.

I don't know exactly how much it would need to be modified, it may need to be slightly modified(just the exhaust) or it may need to be modified more(the RWD Northstar was almost completed reworked), but either way, why modify it at all, when the 3.6 is ready to go in a RWD car?

[carman21]

Not to knock Northstar. This seems awefully convenient. C&G blogs have been loaded with RWD Pontiacs for years. If its true then thats great otherwise its a terrible tease.

[Sixty8panther]

the Chrysler 300 is a success because 'its a mercedes' and because of its penis extender/mafia hitman styling.  Most of the poseurs driving one don't care/don't know which wheels are driving the car.

Had the magnum Charger been released with the 300, they would be sitting on lots even longer than they already are.

Here's what I hear you saying:

Give future Pontiacs ground breaking and sexy styling that

is love it (entusiasts) or hate it (Camcord drivers) and they

will sell even better than just an all-RWD lineup.

So in other words, if all future Pontiacs have muscular &/or

beefy &/or sleek styling ANd they all have RWD with

Rear-biased AWD then they will be as successful if not more

than Chrysler's 300C.

[Sixty8panther]

Pontiac just needs to be a cheap BMW and they'll sell fine.

That's the long and short of ot right there!

[76ChevyTrucker]

I have to say that his is a good idea. I can see where reg is coming from on the comments that he made about Pontiac. Although I could see that it would be a good idea for Pontiac to become RWD only, and sold along with Buick (combination FWD/AWD/RWD) then it would be the best idea, I can still see what reg is saying too. I guess I agree to disagree with reg on this one.

[Robert Hall]

Alas, the reality of 2007 is that there will be one RWD Pontiac, 4-5 FWD models (is the Montana SV6 gone for '07?) and one AWD crossover.

It will be interesting to see how it looks in 3-5 years..

[Sixty8panther]

I for one think this is an even clearer example than the

Camaro concept that GM now "gets it" the last and most

important step will be a full size RWD model for Buick,

Cadillac & Chevrolet.

[Camino LS6]

I for one think this is an even clearer example than the

Camaro concept that GM now "gets it" the last and most

important step will be a full size RWD model for Buick,

Cadillac & Chevrolet.

Here,here!

But, I want my El Camino SS too. :AH-HA_wink:

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Interesting how this conversation is going. The point is..

Pontiac cannot be Pontiac of the 1990's. It has to be something more focused and something that it is known for. That may mean a smaller division with a focused line up. Pontiac has not built a "successful" Toyota Camry or Accord. Maybe Chevy and Saturn can sell that kind of car.( Malibu/Aura)

Look at the big picture:

Pontiac has to have:

1. Got to have products

2. Cars that are somewhat exclusive to Pontiac

3. Cars that appeal to the passion of the buyer as they once did.

Lets be honest... If GM is going to give each division distinction:

There is no need for G6 when you have Malibu and Aura.

There is no need for Montana when you have Relay and Uplander

There is no need for Torrent when you have Equinox and VUE and Outlook

Eventhough some many not like it, Saturn is getting ready to play a bigger role in the scheme of things. Saturn has something Pontiac does not have.. baggage and a image to contend with.

Ask your self honestly with Pontiac means...

Once you see that, it does not mean:

midsized front drive sedans and coupes, minivans, suv's, or crossovers.

It does mean sporty yet athletic vehicles.......

Saturn can at least get people to look at a midsized sedan or car that would woo some import owners.

Solstice when you think about it is like a modern day Fiero.

So you can easily have one sedan to fill the Grand Prix and Bonneville slot

One car to fill the Grand Prix coupe and GTO coupe spot.

One car to fill the Firebird/Trans Am slot

Throw a rear drive sport wagon in there too boot. No other GM division has one.

When you put a smaller for defined Buick with a smaller more defined Pontiac along with a truck/crossover/suv based GMC you have one full line division.

We must stop thinking of Pontiac as it was. Over twenty years of bad management destroyed that. GM wants to give Pontiac a chance for survival. Feeding it every GM platform when the vehicle is not to distinct from another GM car is pointless....

Pontiac 2006-2007:

Pontiac Torrent- Chevrolet Equinox- Saturn VUE

Pontiac G6- Chevrolet Malibu

Pontiac Grand Prix- Chevrolet Impala/Buick LaCrosse

Pontiac G5- Chevrolet Cobalt

Pontiac Vibe

Other than the Vibe and the Solstice and a twin kidney grille and the sporty wheels and chrome rimmed analog red backlight analog gauges, what is distinct about Pontiac?

What stands out to you as saying... That's a Pontiac!!!!

GTO was not listed because it is head out to pasture...

People do not realize Pontiac was not only fighting inside GM,but inside the division.

Lets go back.

Pontiac 6000 was fwd and when Grand Prix went fwd in 1988, they were close in size and more. Pontiac 6000 was killed.

The Grand Prix grew and was so close to Bonneville, it rendered Bonneville useless. You have two fwd sedans close in size and one carrying a higher price tag without much difference.

The same thing happened with Grand Am and Sunfire. They were close in size and then Grand Am won that battle.

Then add to that Pontiac was fighting outside the division with other GM divisions for similar cars. GM has spent so much time fighting with in that they have not been able to fight outside GM. I remember back in the late 1980's it got so bad other GM divisions would mention other GM cars in their ads!

Buick had the same problem.

LeSabre Limited got too close to a base Buick Park Avenue

Century got to close to the Regal

If you think I am kidding look what they did to Buick Regal and Cutlass Supreme in 1995. They put the same interiors in the cars!!

Add to that the character lines the cars once had. GM just started changing grilles and wheels and some things on the inside saying it was a different car..

People expected that from Ford and Chrysler, but not from GM. That is how Mercury got into trouble too. GM started making a heavy practice of this. The victims of this: Pontiac, Buick, and Oldsmobile. You what to know what is really sad...

At one time Pontiac, Buick, and Oldsmobile all were selling the same cars!!

The only thing that was different:

Buick and Oldsmobile did not have an F body, and Pontiac did not have a E or a C body.

That my friends is distinction that was lost over time.

Edited May 30, 2006 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[regfootball]

So you can easily have one sedan to fill the Grand Prix and Bonneville slot

ok, that sounds great. but if its RWD only, who's gonna buy it? Certainly very few north of Kansas. Side note, so you will willingly throw away a car like the Grand Am or G6 and its good 100,000-200,000 volume sales that keep the dealer doors open and keep the cash register ringing and keep buyers shopping GM, knowing full well that many more of those sales lost will go import than Chevy or Saturn. Many diehard GMers won't touch Saturn and vice versa. I do not see any trickle effect from killed Pontiacs over to Saturn. Why not build a KILLER G6 too? More like the concept, with REAL motors, superlative handling, killer seats, and stunning interiors?

One car to fill the Grand Prix coupe and GTO coupe spot.

neither of which sold enough recently to even justify printing up brochures. Although, I like the GTO, they just need to do it right. As long as its not a typical GM redneck wagon, with out of vogue looks and packaging, with too much weight on the front end and the same old Camaro stigma.

One car to fill the Firebird/Trans Am slot

Coupes don't sell and we have the Camaro coming so I don't see benefit this badge engineered model has. you just spent a whole post preaching on how not to have duplicate offerings between divisions and in one sentence you negate your own viewpoint. The Firebird would essentially be redundant to BOTH the GTO and the Camaro. On top of being a coupe and RWD.....translation, no sales. translation, poor stigma on reviving a car with a really bad public rep and tons of ridicule (trans am jokes etc). Not good if you are trying to emulate BMW, IMHO>

Throw a rear drive sport wagon in there too boot. No other GM division has one.

Just for kicks! why not! Because rear drive sportwagons sell in such great volume! What is the average lot time for Magnums? 192 days actually........your dealer will love that. So much they will stop writing checks and drop your brand.

So your vision of Pontiac is ONE sedan (which is by far and away the most popular car configuration / market in America) with RWD nonetheless which will leave northern state dealers high and dry reagrdless of whether any Buicks have it or not......TWO coupes, because coupes are the HOT market (check those GTO sales)....and a rear drive sportwagon.

If you are lucky to hit 60,000 sales with your sedan (which may be tough considering you are peddling a RWD platform) and your coupes are lucky enough to sell 20,000 units each since you are fighting each other.....and the sport wagon maybe sells 10,000 units.....add the Solstice at 25,000 units after demand levels off and you have about 135,000 units which is likely less than the sales volume of the G6 line (and fer sure far below the Grand Am). You might think its all peachy if you add in Buck and GMC sales but GMC sales will stay about the same, maybe go up some.......Buick sales will tank due to lack of product.....Your scenario is touting a setup in which Buick and Pontiac combined maybe sell only 250,000 units combined.

If Buickman was 'Pontiacman' even he would be saying you need that bread and butter product for your showroom, that LeSabre, that grand Prix or grand Am. Your plan has no bread and butter 'marquee' / signature products. Every brand needs at least one mainstream hit. Quite honestly, if you tried to pitch your plan to a Pontiac dealer and said, 'we want to cut your sales voume in half', I would love to see if you make it out of the room alive. And those buyers are NOT going to Saturn.

Pontiac simply cannot fall that far off mainstream and only limit themselves to RWD cars or niche cars like 2 coupes as their bread and butter. They cannot have THAT narrow a focus. I have no problems with them offering 2 sedan lines with RWD/AWD as long as there is a GP or G6 type car as well that fills the mainstream void and generates sales and showroom traffic. Any non lux brand that attempts to build its core product around mainly coupes or uncommon architectures is suspect.

Remember, the Chrysler 300 success has very little to do with drive wheels. Its because of styling and the fact its a 'cheap Mercedes' in terms of marketing the lineage of the car.

There needs to be at a minimum a maintenance of the current volume of Pontiac and Buick sales if for not other reason than its enables the cash flow to generate the ability to create the niche products that cannot make their own business cases.

Edited May 31, 2006 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

The elCamino is a no-brainer. slap a Chevy bowtie on

a Holden UTE and you're done. If Chevy does not

bring out an elCamino soon they will get a much

deserved slew of hate mail from Camino fans.

[Sixty8panther]

ok, that sounds great.  but if its RWD only, who's gonna buy it?  Certainly very few north of Kansas....

Reg: Seriously give it up buddy... I daily drove a RWD 1984 Datsun

this past winter through all kinds of snow... me & XP took several

roadtrips in BIG RED as well wiht it's 425 & RWD, SP's daily driver

was a 1996 Mustang Cobra and other friends we have drive RWD

pickups, F-bodys and 80s G-bodys through the New England winters.

RWD is not the problem... plenty of RWD cars are selling like

hotcakes in these parts. This past winter I saw Chargers, 300s, new

Mustangs and even a lot of RWD Cadillacs on New England roads,

even in nasty, icey, blizzard-condition roads.

People back in the 1950s could navigate just fine in RWD cars with

bias ply tires but now in 2006 with better plowing, sanding & salting

not to mention traction control & Blizzaks everyone is incapable all

of a sudden? C'mon... you guys said yourself RWD does not help the

300C & Charger but it obviously does not hurt their sales either... I

mean damnit you can';t have your cake and eat it too, admit that

RWD sells and sells very well at a high rate of profit.

Let's do some quiick word associaion in this thread:

FWD = compromise

FWD = off kilter

FWD = cheapness

FWD = excuses

FWD = understeer

FWD = false sense of secutiry

FWD = lame

but on the other hand:

RWD = expensive

RWD = quality

RWD = balance

RWD = presteige

RWD = durrability

RWD = exciting

RWD = no holds barred

RWD = correct

[illustcat]

I love the campaign that BMW is coming out with. Using animals to show how natural and how much sense it makes to use RWD:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/wp-content/plu...870&idg=1&idi=1

[Camino LS6]

I can find exactly one point of agreement with all that Reg posted in his last post.

No Firebird.

It's dead, gone ,not coming back, not part of where Pontiac is headed,would hurt Camaro sales, and confuse buyers by splitting the image this new Pontiac will be promoting.

I love the Firebird, but its day is done.

[evok]

Let's do some quiick word associaion in this thread:

FWD = compromise

FWD = off kilter

FWD = cheapness

FWD = excuses

FWD = understeer

FWD = false sense of secutiry

FWD = lame

but on the other hand:

RWD = expensive

RWD = quality

RWD = balance

RWD = presteige

RWD = durrability

RWD = exciting

RWD = no holds barred

RWD = correct

You should have prefaced your post with IMO

[evok]

I can find exactly one point of agreement with all that Reg posted in his last post.

No Firebird.

It's dead, gone ,not coming back, not part of where Pontiac is headed,would hurt Camaro sales, and confuse buyers by splitting the image this new Pontiac will be promoting.

I love the Firebird, but its day is done.

There was a recent design study for a Firebird that is stitting at the studio collecting dust last I checked. That artwork caused all the uproar in Motor Trend and Auto Extremist that there will be a new Firbird.

Which is not the case.

What I think most people fail to realize is that any Extreme Makeover that GM may ultimately decide for Pontiac will take years to implement. Pontiacs last hope as a brand could be a switch to rwd if that is what GM decides to implements. But, 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 years is really a long time in this business. Pontiac has very little momentum if any at the moment. 3 - 4 -5 - 6 years can be a very long time and that far out, will buyers even care.

Time is not on Pontiacs side.

These are not the days of Bunkie Knudson and John Delorean, where a transition can take place in one model year.

Beyond a few models here and there over the last 40 years, Pontiac really has not built "excitement".

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is just a "for instance" but, why not build a Pontiac halo on Y-Body?

They ARE the performance division afterall....

I mean, it be a complicated situation, but it WOULD give the division momentum.

It could be low volume but still make money (Assuming they could get past capacity and tooling costs---on second thought, that might be a hard business case.)

What I think most people fail to realize is that any Extreme Makeover that GM may ultimately decide for Pontiac will take years to implement. Pontiacs last hope as a brand could be a switch to rwd if that is what GM decides to implements. But, 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 years is really a long time in this business. Pontiac has very little momentum if any at the moment. 3 - 4 -5 - 6 years can be a very long time and that far out, will buyers even care.

Time is not on Pontiacs side.

These are not the days of Bunkie Knudson and John Delorean, where a transition can take place in one model year.

If you count the 1999 Evoq concept, the Cadillac renaissance took 6-7 years to complete.... More if you include the last 2 V-Series cars as part of it.

[ToniCipriani]

You should have prefaced your post with IMO

Agreed. There are tons of great FWD cars out there as well. Is an Alfa Romeo cheap and low quality because it's FWD? No.

[evok]

If you count the 1999 Evoq concept, the Cadillac renaissance took 6-7 years to complete.... More if you include the last 2 V-Series cars as part of it.

There is a big difference in people minds, Pontiac is not Cadillac. Cadillac has always had a lot of good will left in the brand.

[Camino LS6]

There was a recent design study for a Firebird that is stitting at the studio collecting dust last I checked.  That artwork caused all the uproar in Motor Trend and Auto Extremist that there will be a new Firbird.

Which is not the case.

What I think most people fail to realize is that any Extreme Makeover that GM may ultimately decide for Pontiac will take years to implement.  Pontiacs last hope as a brand could be a switch to rwd if that is what GM decides to implements.  But, 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 years is really a long time in this business.  Pontiac has very little momentum if any at the moment.  3 - 4 -5 - 6 years can be a very long time and that far out, will buyers even care.

Time is not on Pontiacs side.

These are not the days of Bunkie Knudson and John Delorean, where a transition can take place in one model year.

Beyond a few models here and there over the last 40 years, Pontiac really has not built "excitement".

Agreed that this will take time, and further that it is getting a late start. However, the premise is valid and I can see no other option if Pontiac is to have any future at all.

This needs to be pushed with all possible speed. The next 2-3 years are likely to look bleak with improvement gaining momentum after that. GM will have to show commitment to this plan if it is to work, it will be do or die.

[ponchoman49]

Some words of wisdom to Pontiac:

1) Quit trying to be BMW

2) Come up with your own styling and let the Asians make the dull boring toasters

3) Quit calling everything a "G" something

4) Drop the 3800/4 speed automatic like now

5) Come up with interior colors other than tan and black

6) Make your products distinctively Pontiac

7) Keep the Grand Prix name

Call your new RWD full size a Bonneville or Tempest

9) Make the Pursuit more distinctive and give it a different interior and a GTP version with the 260 hp 2.0 liter turbo

10) Don't copy the Asians with cars that all look alike from the sides with no trim, moldings or character lines

11) Bring back the Firebird with Pontiac cues and engines

12) Make a nice little V6 available for the Solstice such as the 2.8

13) Get those 6 speed automatics out now!

14) Bring back a Grand Prix coupe

[GEESIXER]

"1. Design is first

2. Quality is second

3. perception is third.

At one point and time, Pontiac used to define performance. Why can't it be that way again."

GAME POINT AND MATCH. I COULD NOT HAVE PUT IT BETTER MYSELF!!!!!!

[regfootball]

panther, you're a minority. most of the BUYING public will cross RWD only off their list in snowy climes for convenience. No one cares if you don't, its the MARKET they have to design to. Folks want ease and convenience and a less hassle way of getting around. Why do you suppose infiniti and BMW and Lexus all sell AWD versions of their models>?

Reg: Seriously give it up buddy... I daily drove a RWD 1984 Datsun

this past winter through all kinds of snow... me & XP took several

roadtrips in BIG RED as well wiht it's 425 & RWD, SP's daily driver

was a 1996 Mustang Cobra and other friends we have drive RWD

pickups, F-bodys and 80s G-bodys through the New England winters.

RWD is not the problem... plenty of RWD cars are selling like

hotcakes in these parts. This past winter I saw Chargers, 300s, new

Mustangs and even a lot of RWD Cadillacs on New England roads,

even in nasty, icey, blizzard-condition roads.

People back in the 1950s could navigate just fine in RWD cars with

bias ply tires but now in 2006 with better plowing, sanding & salting

not to mention traction control & Blizzaks everyone is incapable all

of a sudden? C'mon... you guys said yourself RWD does not help the

300C & Charger but it obviously does not hurt their sales either... I

mean damnit you can';t have your cake and eat it too, admit that

RWD sells and sells very well at a high rate of profit.

Let's do some quiick word associaion in this thread:

FWD = compromise

FWD = off kilter

FWD = cheapness

FWD = excuses

FWD = understeer

FWD = false sense of secutiry

FWD = lame

but on the other hand:

RWD = expensive

RWD = quality

RWD = balance

RWD = presteige

RWD = durrability

RWD = exciting

RWD = no holds barred

RWD = correct

Edited May 31, 2006 by regfootball

[evok]

At one point and time, Pontiac used to define performance. Why can't it be that way again."

GAME POINT AND MATCH.  I COULD NOT HAVE PUT IT BETTER MYSELF!!!!!!

Pontiac has not defined much in the way of excitment for its time since John Delorean left the division for Chevrolet in the early 1970's.

That is a generation of car buyers that probably does not think of Pontiac as much if anything.

[evok]

If GM is smart they will not listen to any Pontiac enthusiast if they make a serious attempt at rebuilding the brand.

Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking.

That includes:

The arrow head.

The split grill.

Target buyer.

Model names.

Everything.

Traditional Pontiac buyers that long for the good old days that have not existed for the brand in 35+ years are a dieing breed.

Pontiac needs a fresh start all around if they believe they have a shot at turning the brand around. Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

Traditional buyer will be attracted to the brand no matter what GM pushes. The problem they face is convincing the other 16.4 million buyer, Pontiac is worth a look.

Pontiac has a lot of baggage - For that very reason, everything has to be on the table.

[Flybrian]

You should have prefaced your post with IMO

And followed it with (sp?)

[91z4me]

Pontiac has not defined much in the way of excitment for its time since John Delorean left the division for Chevrolet in the early 1970's.

That is a generation of car buyers that probably does not think of Pontiac as much if anything.

You know I think I am in that group. Points to consider: I was born in 1981 and as I grew up the only exciting Pontiac was the Firebird, the Fiero was neat but not something that could be considered practical. GP was a rebadged Buick TType without the special engine, 6000 wasn't on my radar at all, GP when it went FWD was cool looking but not as cool as the Z34 Lumina. I never really considered a Pontiac as a car for myself until just recently when I began to consider the last Grand Am and even then the outside styling was up to par but the interior and powertrain/chassis just aren't what I would like from them.

I also agree with evok that time is not on Pontiac's side. From what we have heard the only thing that Pontiac has on the drawing board is the next G6 and a slightly refreshed W-body GP(very short lived). Then what Pontiac will have Vibe, Solstice, G5, G6, GP. A GTO may or may not be out before 2010 but even then you have a VERY small lineup and I don't think GM has a proper plan to keep Pontiac going while this new RWD structure is developed, unless it plans on basing everything off of Zeta, which would be to large for a compact car.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Agreed that this will take time, and further that it is getting a late start. However, the premise is valid and I can see no other option if Pontiac is to have any future at all.

This needs to be pushed with all possible speed. The next 2-3 years are likely to look bleak with improvement gaining momentum after that. GM will have to show commitment to this plan if it is to work, it will be do or die.

I agree 100%

GM is really going to have to work the Pontiac PR hard to keep interest burning.

But, then again, Pontiac will also have the new FWD offerings to help with sales, such as the NG G6 (Isn't it supposed to come online before the changeover would be complete?) and the new Vibe (I'm not sure where this program is... One minute I hear that it's on, the next I hear that it doesn't exist anymore)

I think it can be done and I think the Pontiac brand has A LOT of equity with the youth... But GM will have to execute it correctly every step of the way.

Pontiac's image isn't as bad as some here may think IMO.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac has not defined much in the way of excitment for its time since John Delorean left the division for Chevrolet in the early 1970's.

That is a generation of car buyers that probably does not think of Pontiac as much if anything.

I tend to disagree...

While Pontiac definitly LOST it's way, I do think the division has some credentials in performance.... The Trans Am alone has kept that going with a lot of todays youth. The 6000 and, while not really performance oriented-per se, the Grand Am have quite a following too. Not to mention the Solstice dropping jaws in all age groups and the GTO, at least in name, carries the banner. Eventhough it doesn't look the part, it still carries credibility with a lot of people.

Pontiac has the same problem that ALL of GM has... They need to INNOVATE and LEAD instead of immitate and follow.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If GM is smart they will not listen to any Pontiac enthusiast if they make a serious attempt at rebuilding the brand.

Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking.

That includes:

The arrow head.

The split grill.

Target buyer.

Model names.

Everything.

Traditional Pontiac buyers that long for the good old days that have not existed for the brand in 35+ years are a dieing breed.

I agree and disagree....

I agree in that the Pontiac traditionalists shouldn't be the prime target because Pontiac needs to expand it's appeal. I disagree with throwing away heritage though... Heritage, ESPECIALLY Pontiac's can be a VERY VALUABLE tool with lots of equity.

The new Pontiac should play on it's roots of PURE performance and PURE excitement... I'm not talking about the "tacked on ground effects" of recent memory. I'm talking about the 60's and the IMAGE that Pontiac STILL has in a lot of people's thoughts. INFORM the consumer of what Pontiac WAS and has once again BECOME; GM's rebel division (for lack of better words)

That IMAGE would be RED HOT in todays market if it was taken to the people in the correct way. Especially if the cars had a dose of CLASSIC americana thrown in (Not really retro---Just heritage inspired, even if only in spirit and attitude) Something like a campaign that ties in the menacing GTO with a new EXCITING looking GTO.... etc.

I've come to this point in my mind again; Pontiac suffers from the same problem GM does... THEY HAVE FAILED TO INFORM THE CONSUMER OF WHAT EXACTLY THEY ARE AND WHAT EXACTLY IT MEANS TO DRIVE A PONTIAC. Cadillac has capitalized on this concept, now why can't the rest of GM?

Pontiac needs a fresh start all around if they believe they have a shot at turning the brand around. Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

Agreed

Traditional buyer will be attracted to the brand no matter what GM pushes. The problem they face is convincing the other 16.4 million buyer, Pontiac is worth a look.

Agreed

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Great news, I'm excited! I could care less if the Vibe died-as long as Saturn gets a compact and subcompact sports coupe, hatchbacks, and sedans, I don't care what happens with the non-Zeta portion of Pontiac. And please, unless its done with a fastback hatch and performance engine a la Mazda CX-7, ditch Torrent and keep GMC a TRUCK company! Give the Acadia to Chevy and don't even think of another car-based GMC! Now about that sporty Bonneville replacement...

[CaddyXLR-V]

If GM is smart they will not listen to any Pontiac enthusiast if they make a serious attempt at rebuilding the brand.

Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking.

That includes:

The arrow head.

The split grill.

Target buyer.

Model names.

Everything.

Traditional Pontiac buyers that long for the good old days that have not existed for the brand in 35+ years are a dieing breed.

Pontiac needs a fresh start all around if they believe they have a shot at turning the brand around.  Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac.

Traditional buyer will be attracted to the brand no matter what GM pushes.  The problem they face is convincing the other 16.4 million buyer, Pontiac is worth a look.

Pontiac has a lot of baggage - For that very reason, everything has to be on the table.

I'm a Pontiac enthusiast, but I wouldn't mind if some, or all of those things were changed, as long as they are changed for the better, and don't change Pontiac into another generic brand. GM needs to define a specific role Pontiac is supposed to be, and only give Pontiac cars that fit that role. If thats performance, then GM would need to cut every car Pontiac has except the GTO and Solstice, and even then, the styling needs to be more aggressive for both. Edited May 31, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V

[daves87rs]

I think the G6 should stick around ( at least for a little while)

But everything else should go RWD....

A Poor man BMW.....

FAST, with cues from its past....

THough I think a mix of OLD and NEW names should be in order..

[hyperv6]

I am a long time Pontiac fan and owner. I have driven many of the best Pontiacs ever made and agree that Pontiac needs to rethink styling, names and many traditional things they have carried much too long.

Pontiac needs to make changes much like they did with the 68 to 69 GP. This was a radical move from full size to mid size and styling that set them apart from the rest of the GM cars. A radical move like this would generate new life into the brand.

Also if they would follow much like what John Delorean wanted to do back in the 60's with leading edge technology in performance sedans and coupes. He origianlly wanted 4 wheel disc brakes, OHC V8 engines with fuel injection, radial tires and etc long before you saw it on any American built sedans or coupes.

Delorean knew what the world leading sport sedans had and wanted to bring it to Pontiac but was stopped by GM. Imagine what Pontiac and GM would have been like with such foward thinking if implimented in the mid and late 60's.

I know it would take time to fix Pontiac and being sold in with Buick would make it less of a burden on the dealer network if the product line is weak for a few more years vs being a stand alone dealer with out product.

Also being in with Buick and with a weak line up you have little to lose with a big shake up. Bunkie removed the silver streaks and added real performance. Removing the twin grills and adding true leading performance could work again. It is time to make it fun to own a Pontiac and not just feel like you own a fancy Chevy.

As for ticking off the traditional Pontiac owner, I do not think that would be much of a worry as many hard core Pontiac fans have never accepted any of the new Pontiac since they stopped the 400 in 1979. You can see two different groups those who don't feel a Pontiac has been built since 1979 and the later fan who likes Pontiac but would just as easily buy a Chevy too.

If you want Pontiac to live it needs to be much more different from Chevy and appeal much to a Import performance car buyer.

Losing FWD would only help sell the performance sedan aspect and help sell Pontiac to a more expensive crowd. It is hard to sell mid to larger performance sedan over $35K if it is FWD. The group that would buy that car could care less about snow.

You also would need to be price aware not to go too high as to get into the CTS price range. A poor mans V8 CTS V like sedan for under 40K would be nice. Also if they can hold out for a Kappa 2 if it ever happens it could spawn many different small performance cars including a Mini fighter in the low 20K range.

At this point you can kill it and gain little or invest in a new look and feel and gain a lot if it works. Keep in mind how many call to kill Saturn and said it could not be saved, they are now poised on a rebound not seen in Detroit in years. I think it would be worth at least a effort to make Pontiac work and if little improves you can still kill it. There is more to gain in saving Pontiac vs what would be gained if it is killed.

Even if they wanted to park the name for a few years they always have the option to bring the name back when they decide what they want it to be. It is time to think outside the box!

Edited June 1, 2006 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I am a long time Pontiac fan and owner. I have driven many of the best Pontiacs ever made and agree that Pontiac needs to rethink styling, names and many traditional things they have carried much too long.

Pontiac needs to make changes much like they did with the 68 to 69 GP. This was a radical move from full size to mid size and styling that set them apart from the rest of the GM cars. A radical move like this would generate new life into the brand.

Also if they would follow much like what John Delorean wanted to do back in the 60's with leading edge technology in performance sedans and coupes. He origianlly wanted 4 wheel disc brakes, OHC V8 engines with fuel injection, radial tires and etc long before you saw it on any American built sedans or coupes.

Delorean knew what the world leading sport sedans had and wanted to bring it to Pontiac but was stopped by GM. Imagine what Pontiac and GM would have been like with such foward thinking if implimented in the mid and late 60's.

I know it would take time to fix Pontiac and being sold in with Buick would make it less of a burden on the dealer network if the product line is weak for a few more years vs being a stand alone dealer with out product.

Also being in with Buick and wilth a weak line up yu have little to lose with a big shake up. Bunkie removed the silver streaks and added real performance. Removing the twin grills and adding true leading performance could work again. It is time to make it fun to own a Pontiac and not just feel like you own a fancy Chevy.

As for ticking off the traditional Pontiac owner, I do not think that would be much of a worry as many hard core Pontiac fans have never accepted any of the new Pontiac since they stopped the 400 in 1979. You can see two different groups those who don't feel a Pontiac has been built since 1979 and the later fan who likes Pontiac but would just as easily buy a Chevy too.

If you want Pontiac to live it needs to be much more different from Chevy and appeal much to a Import performance car buyer.

Losing FWD would only help sell the performance sedan aspect and help sell Pontiac to a more expensive crowd. It is hard to sell mid to larger performance sedan over $35K if it is FWD. The group that would buy that car could care less about snow.

You also would need to be price aware not to go too high as to get into the CTS price range.  A poor mans V8 CTS V like sedan for under 40K would be nice. Also if they can hold out for a Kappa 2 if it ever happens it could spawn many different small performance cars including a Mini fighter in the low 20K range. 

At this point you can kill it and gain little or invest in a new look and feel and gain a lot if it works.  Keep in mind how many call to kill Saturn and said it could not be saved, they are now poised on a rebound not seen in Detroit in years. I think it would be worth at lease a effort to make Pontiac work and if little improves you can still kill it. There is more to gain in saving Pontiac vs what would be gained if it is killed.

Even if they wanted to park the name for a few years they always have the option to bring the name back when they decide what they want it to be. It is time to think outside the box!

Great post

[regfootball]

the CTS is an exact reason why RWD Pontiacs appeal may be limited. The CTS is within reach of many young BMW intenders, so if Caddy gets those sales, so you really have anough left for Pontiac? Just a question. I mean, a CTS and then a Pontiac version of the CTS is just as redundant as many of GM's product lines now.

Edited June 1, 2006 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

the CTS is an exact reason why RWD Pontiacs appeal may be limited.  The CTS is within reach of many young BMW intenders, so if Caddy gets those sales, so you really have anough left for Pontiac?  Just a question.  I mean, a CTS and then a Pontiac version of the CTS is just as redundant as many of GM's product lines now.

At least it's two redundant products that are good quality

appealing cars... instead of redundant $h!boxes like so

many out there. Who get excited about the Fusion, Milan

& Zephyr? They're lame.

I'm in absoute love wiht the RWD idea but I think the

twin-port should stay! Perhaps rework it to resemble

the 1970s Judge or 1959 Bonneville or even the some

of the other more unique twin-ports Pontiacs have

worn in the 1950s and 1960s.

[Robert Hall]

I'm in absoute love wiht the RWD idea but I think the

twin-port should stay! Perhaps rework it to resemble

the 1970s Judge or 1959 Bonneville or even the some

of the other more unique twin-ports Pontiacs have

worn in the 1950s and 1960s.

I'd like to see Pontiac abandon the BMW-esque nostrils and do something pointy...my favorite Pontiac front ends of the past had a pointy nose between twin grilles--- '68-69 GTO, '62-69 Catalinas, Bonnevilles, '70-73 Firebirds, '73-75 Grand Am, for example..a modern front end with some edges and not just a smooth flat nose with 2 grille openings...

[MyerShift]

Is this serious?!

This is some of the most awesome news to come out of GM in consideration of its brands since the transformation of Saturn was named!!

If it develops well and goes as planned, it shall truly be a Pontiac that should have always been.

[Chicagoland]

They do need a "Catalina/Tempest" type vehcile to sell in volume to those who can't afford a GTO/GTP, etc.. Thus, keep the G6 line going.

[ToniCipriani]

the CTS is an exact reason why RWD Pontiacs appeal may be limited.  The CTS is within reach of many young BMW intenders, so if Caddy gets those sales, so you really have anough left for Pontiac?  Just a question.  I mean, a CTS and then a Pontiac version of the CTS is just as redundant as many of GM's product lines now.

No, you got it wrong. A person considering a BMW will never cross shop a Pontiac.

I'd say Acura and low end Infiniti is a better target.

[regfootball]

the weird thing is I see a buttload of Zephyrs, and very few of any other Lincolns. The LS has never sold well here.

At least it's two redundant products that are good quality

appealing cars... instead of redundant $h!boxes like so

many out there. Who get excited about the Fusion, Milan

& Zephyr? They're lame.

I'm in absoute love wiht the RWD idea but I think the

twin-port should stay! Perhaps rework it to resemble

the 1970s Judge or 1959 Bonneville or even the some

of the other more unique twin-ports Pontiacs have

worn in the 1950s and 1960s.

[regfootball]

No, you got it wrong. A person considering a BMW will never cross shop a Pontiac.

I'd say Acura and low end Infiniti is a better target.

I would disagree. Some folks might want BMW tightness for a lot less money. Of course, those would be MATURE people....not overly image conscious and pompous BMW 'image' fans.

Pontiac can exist and should exist and can thrive as GM's performance division, I just don't buy that every one of their cars would need to be RWD to pull it off.

Its got more to do with leading edge hardware, refinement, machinery, building to exacting standards and specifications.......proper driver ergonomics........excellent seats...chassis/weight balance....all stuff that GM has never done well or at all.

Edited June 1, 2006 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

I'd like to see Pontiac abandon the BMW-esque nostrils and do something pointy...my favorite Pontiac front ends of the past had a pointy nose between twin grilles--- '68-69 GTO, '62-69 Catalinas, Bonnevilles, '70-73 Firebirds, '73-75 Grand Am, for example..a modern front end with some edges and not just a smooth flat nose with 2 grille openings...

YES!

It's time for the beak to make a reapperance. FireChickens & GTOs

of the late 60s and early 70s had some great "beaks"... as did

most Grand Prixs of the era.

[Bandit 1]

Here's what I think the lineup should be for Pontiac-

G6 same price range as the one now AWD

G8 Bonneville type car RWD LS2 for GXP

Solstice leave it alone, maybe more hp

Trans Am $28,000 400hp $32,000 450hp + extra goodies $36,000 500hp + better stuff RWD of course

GTO upscale really nice with better features than T/A $35,000 400hp The Judge $40,000 500hp & RWD

[thegriffon]

The awd request does have some merit. BMW sells some 30% of 3-series sedans and wagons with awd (peaking in winter-spring), and a similar proportion of 5-series, even though the latter is limited to the 530xi. Those are numbers not to be sneezed at. You can bet DCX new exactly how many Mercedes buyers opt for awd and where, before deciding to offer awd on the LX cars.