Pontiac: Nothing but rwd cars?

[Northstar]

Pontiac: Nothing but rwd cars?

GM proposal plays up performance cars in attempt to revive ailing brand

Jamie LaReau | Automotive News / May 29, 2006

http://autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?...1/1003&refsect=

Pontiac plan

GM officials will unveil a rwd concept vehicle for Pontiac at the 2007 Detroit auto show. To revive the brand, GM also is considering:

- Fielding a lineup of all rwd cars

- Replacing the Grand Prix with a higher-priced sedan

- Replacing the GTO with a vehicle built on Camaro architecture

DETROIT -- After debating Pontiac's viability this year, General Motors' leadership plans to revive the brand's heritage of performance with a product lineup of exclusively rear-wheel-drive cars.

There would be no trucks and - after the next generation of vehicles - no front-wheel-drive cars either.

GM will unveil a rwd sedan concept at January's Detroit auto show, company sources say. This echoes the strategy that GM adopted with the 1999 Evoq concept, which revealed Cadillac's new brand "look."

The Pontiac plan is not final. GM executives continue to build a business case for it. This ambitious proposal is a plan to save the brand, which has suffered declining sales. GM sold 437,806 Pontiacs in the United States last year, compared with 599,123 in 1995.

One insider says it would take five years to convert the brand to rwd. That's why Pontiac will get one more generation of fwd and all-wheel-drive small cars.

A Pontiac spokesman declined to comment on the brand's plans. Fwd cars will not go away soon, but rwd vehicles will become more prominent "in the near term," the spokesman said.

Sources inside GM and close to Pontiac say GM leaders are debating:

- The future of the Grand Prix sedan.

- A possible GTO replacement based on the Chevrolet Camaro.

- A Firebird muscle car.

Not so 'damaged'

In recent years, Pontiac has been wracked by debate over its future. During a controversial speech at the New York auto show last year, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz called Pontiac "a damaged brand."

In a recent interview with Automotive News, Lutz said he had never asserted that the brand was "irreparably" damaged. While Pontiac is still struggling, GM is repairing the damage, and the bleeding has stopped, Lutz says.

Nevertheless, sources say top-level GM executives did debate a phaseout of the brand. In January, senior executives met to discuss Pontiac's future. GM decided to revive Pontiac as a pure performance brand.

GM will trim product lineups as it consolidates Buick, Pontiac and GMC into three-brand dealerships under its retail channel strategy. In a recent interview, Lutz told Automotive News that Pontiac and Buick will not carry trucks.

Lutz declined to speculate whether the Pontiac Torrent crossover, a rebadged Chevrolet Equinox, would one day go to GMC, but industry sources say it's likely.

The strategy will force Pontiac to sort out its product plans for the Grand Prix. While GM hasn't set a time frame, it's likely the automaker will discontinue the current incarnation of the fwd Grand Prix after the 2008 model year, industry sources say.

GM is considering a new mid-sized rwd sedan to replace it, says an industry insider. The source says the vehicle will be "one notch up" from the present Grand Prix, which has a base price of $21,990, including shipping. Whether that vehicle keeps the Grand Prix name is uncertain.

A rwd lineup could give Pontiac performance credibility, says John Pitre, general manager of Motor City Auto Center in Bakersfield, Calif. "They're right on track with the performance division of GM," he says. "BMW has been born and raised on rear-wheel drive. For us on the West Coast, rear-wheel drive feels better to drive and seems to last longer."

But Pontiac's drive to become a pure performance division would sacrifice sales volume, predicts Doug Scott, industry analyst at GfK Automotive in Southfield, Mich. For example, many G6 buyers in northern climates want a front-wheel-drive car for winter conditions.

Scott also said GM is pressuring dealers to combine Buick, Pontiac and GMC franchises into single stores by cutting the brands' product lineups.

"They really want to narrow the range of products and narrow the sales objective," Scott says. It means sacrificing sales volume at dealerships for profit at corporate level. "It's forcing the channeling strategy," he says.

Like a Camaro

Pontiac brand executives hope that if GM builds the Camaro for Chevrolet, the architecture could provide a similar product for Pontiac. The previous generation of GM muscle cars included the rwd Pontiac Firebird, a sibling of the Camaro.

But Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson is quick to add, "We want a truly differentiated product. We don't want a rebadged vehicle."

Company insiders say that if GM decides to build the Camaro, GM will not revive a Firebird version. "There will be no Firebird," says one source. "Rear-wheel drive? Yes. Pony car? No."

Dealers also want a replacement for the GTO, one of only two current rwd Pontiac cars, the other being the Solstice two-seater. Pontiac will kill the Australia-produced coupe this fall after just three model years.

Insiders say there will be a replacement for the GTO, but the product gap will remain for a couple of years.

Says Pontiac's Hopson: "We haven't made any bones about the fact that Pontiac needs a rear-wheel-drive performance vehicle."

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad GM has finally realized what Pontiac's niche should be. It sure took them long enough.

I have a feeling that if Lutz didn't come on board Pontiac would be six feet under by the time this all comes to life.

[Achelous]

Fantastic idea. I think they need a Grand Prix like sedan (performance oriented though) to add volume to the brand. The only potential pitfall I see is to convert Pontiac into a brand exclusively made of sports cars. They need to maintain those volume cars, albeit with more performance emphasis. I'm optimistic about this!

[ShadowDog]

As far as I'm concerned, if they don't carry a reasonably affordable sedan and small car, they're cocking the gun with this plan, and it's aimed squarely at their feet.

[bowtie_dude]

Huh.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...?showtopic=8802

Then you have the Pontiac-Buick-GMC consolidation. Its my opinion and hope that the three divisions will move toward a near-lux and luxury lineup, competitive with Lexus (Buick, GMC with trucks/SUVs) and Acura (Pontiac). Pontiac will move to small and mid-size RWD vehicles.

-Solstice, both ragtop and coupe

-some RWD midsize sedan and hatch/wagon

-entry-level sporty RWD/AWD 5-passenger SUV

-and some mid-size RWD coupe, ala GTO or something.

Huh.

[deftonesfan867]

Hopefully this IS what happens. Shouldve been the way it was all along. Damnit GM....

[ocnblu]

Well, I hope this pans out to the "T". I see no potential sacrifice in sales volume in doing this. They can still offer entry-level models, they'll just be RWD. The first Sunbird was RWD, remember? They will still need Solstice, and then 3 sizes of coupes, sedans, convertibles and one sportwagon, all RWD with optional AWD.

Returning to real model names is also in order.

This is what so many Pontiac enthusiasts have been hoping for for many years, and GM needs to get started on this project sooner rather than later. This is very encouraging news.

Edited May 29, 2006 by ocnblu

[mjd1001]

Well, I hope this pans out to the "T".  I see no potential sacrifice in sales volume in doing this.  They can still offer entry-level models, they'll just be RWD.  The first Sunbird was RWD, remember?  They will still need Solstice, and then 3 sizes of coupes, sedans, convertibles and one sportwagon, all RWD with optional AWD.

Returning to real model names is also in order. 

This is what so many Pontiac enthusiasts have been hoping for for many years, and GM needs to get started on this project sooner rather than later.  This is very encouraging news.

Not too big of a deal to me, but I hope this means that Chevy and Saturn are going to STAY predominantly FWD. There is a very large market for mid/full size FWD cars (look at sales of the Camry, Accord, Even the Impala). Despite the use of traction and stability controll, I know many people who live in areas where the winter weather gets bad (I have much family in or near Buffalo, NY) that is not interested in RWD at all. With that said, if Pontiac goes all RWD, then it can be a good thing to give consumers a choice, just make sure you offer full and mid sized cars still in FWD.

[ToniCipriani]

Just go back to where the G6 was originally planned in the concept: AWD. The G5 just die already, and I think they can scale Zeta down to make a 3-series like compact sedan.

I'm perfectly fine with RWD and AWD only lineup. It can very well just become the poor man's BMW again.

Somewhat like this:

1-Series Hatch -> Vibe

3-Series Coupe/Sedan -> G6

5-Series -> Grand Prix

6-Series -> GTO

7-Series -> Bonneville

X3 -> Torrent

Not direct competition, just one-to-one mapping of the lineup.

Although I haven't really take into consideration of Buick yet...

[Dsuupr]

So the question is will the concept vehicle be a compact or midsize?

[Sixty8panther]

YES!

[CSpec]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of a GTO based on the Camaro. What's wrong with making it a coupe Zeta?

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I hope this becomes a reality. Pontiac should have been the way they are thinking a while back. I was looking recently at Pontiac of the past in the thread about "Everything Old is New Again on the GM News Section,

and I noticed something..

No one fondly remembers the Pontiac of the 1990's or the late 80's. It was not until recently people became excited about Pontiac with the Solstice.

all too often on this board and other places, I hear to it referred to as front wheel drive crap. No one will fondly remember the early 1990's Grand Prix sedans. They will fondly remember the Pontiac 6000 STE. It is what the Toyota Camry is now.

It is the Pontiac of the 1960's the 1970's and early 1980's they fondly remember.

People fondly remember the:

Firebird/Trans Am

Grand Prix

Bonneville/Grand Ville/Parisienne/Catalina/Grand Safari

GTO

Grand Am(the one from the 1970's and early to mid 1980's)

Grand LeMans and Luxury LeMans (1960's and 1970's)

Fiero

Honestly... look at the interior of the 1977-1987 Grand Prix. Then look at the current Grand Prix. I like the current Grand Prix, but it comes up short.

Pontiac used to use wood trim and distinct interiors and exteriors. The reason why they started with all that body cladding in the 1980's was they needed to stand out from other GM divisions. They then became dependent on that as a crutch. Pontiac then became style and no substance.

I am here to tell you.. If the last Bonneville 2000-2005 was rear wheel drive and had more interior room and a different instrumentation panel it would have been a different story. They finally started getting it right in 2004-2005 and it still came up short because it was front wheel drive. The Grand Prix is suffering right now for the same reason.

GM is starting to figure it out people. The last time GM was truly successful was in the 1980-1986 era. That is when most divisions were rear drive and were distinct and semi independent. All of them were making a profit and selling at least 700,000 cars a year.

GM was putting more cars on fewer platforms in the 1960's and 1970's. By the 1980's and 1990's they had too many platforms and not enough distinction. That whole consolidation businesss of 1984 under Roger Smith and then the business of the 1990's and early part of the 21st Century under Zarella did not help.

Holden has Commodore, UTE, Statesman, Caprice, Calais, Aventra and a few others off the same platform. All are rear drive.

GM got in trouble for the same reason Ford did.

1. Quality

2. Missing the point and not having a sense of the market and buyers.

3. MOST IMPORTANTLY( trying to out Japanese the Japanese.) They spent at 20 years and lost time trying to do that.

Several have said it here before:

You bring a car to the market copying someone else, by the time you get it to market, they competition has moved ahead to the next level.

Rear wheel drive is no longer a compromise and you can have rear drive that handles just as well as a front drive car.

I can only hope that they are realizing this with Buick.

Do I think Pontiac can be saved?? Yes, but it takes time and a clear image and effort and money like they did with Cadillac.

The new GM is starting to shape up.

It is clear what Chevrolet is. It is clear Saturn is Opel/Vauxhall North America.

It is clear what Cadillac is

It is also clear what SAAB is also.

What Pontiac and Buick and GMC will be has to be shaped out. It may become Holden North America with three distinct product offerings from three different brands marketed as one.

I also still feel Oldsmobile could have been saved. I also still feel someday they could be revived. If it did return, it would not be the 1997-2004 Oldsmobile either. It would not be a full line division either.

I am glad GM is realizing it has rich history and heritage and a foundation to work with. This is something the Asian imports do not have.

1. Design is first

2. Quality is second

3. perception is third.

At one point and time, Pontiac used to define performance. Why can't it be that way again.

In order to understand what Pontiac should be, go look at the 1960's- early to mid 1980's Pontiac.

Edited May 29, 2006 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Sixty8panther]

Ninety-8-R know's what's what. I agree with 100% of

his post. I come off like an ignorant RWD-loving

fanatic but he's nailed it in B&W. This is the next big

step for GM. If they can pull this off they just might

be able to kick Toyota's @$$ after all. Even if they

loose #1 status and don't get it back they'll at least be

making cars people will give a damn about again.

[Northstar]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of a GTO based on the Camaro. What's wrong with making it a coupe Zeta?

I think that just means they're going to share the platform. The platform should be fine for the GTO as it's basically the same wheelbase as the current one (slightly longer).

[NOS2006]

Note to self: No mention of any SUV-like vehicle.

[Camino LS6]

'bout time.

It would seem that GM actually gets it this time. This plan is a no-brainer and should have been in place circa MY2000. Imagine the cars we could have by now!

[CaddyXLR-V]

I really hope that is what happens. I don't think Pontiac will be losing that many sales with the switch to RWD. Retail sales, not fleet sales. The only reason Pontiac has the volume it still does is due to fleet sales. I'm guessing their true sales are only 300,000. I think that can be matched even being all RWD/AWD, and at higher prices. This is exciting!!!!

GM. Don't forget one key element while doing this, Manual transmissions for all sizes/engines/trim levels.

[CaddyXLR-V]

'bout time.

It would seem that GM actually gets it this time. This plan is a no-brainer and should have been in place circa MY2000. Imagine the cars we could have by now!

Imagine how nice a car the 97-03 Grand Prixs would have been with RWD and a manual.

[drew770]

This is a great idea only if Pontiac have at least one of their vehicles exclusive to Pontiac.

Chevy does not need everything that Pontiac has and visa versa.

But, needs to fast track this plan because Pontiac is only limping along and the Solstice will not save the brand.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

To make my point:

1960's Pontiac commercials:

and

versus this:

late 1980's Pontiac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNmvEGFr15E&search=pontiac

and

late 1990's Pontiac

The mission is quite clear what Pontiac was and what it should be...

[DetroitNut90]

I hope GM does this. Only 2 things missing though:

1) A crossover SUV. RWD or not, Pontiac could do well here if it gets the Torrent right

2) Real names, not the quasi-Lexus/BMW alphanumeric stuff. Names like Bonneville, Grand Prix, Firebird/Firehawk, Tempest, and so on...

I kind of like the idea of Pontiac being a poor-man's BMW. I think that Pontiac could pull this off.

[ZL-1]

I hope this shift to RWD moves forward.

I remeber (@ AH-HA's website) someone commenting on a design proposal for the next GTO as a 4-door coupe (a CLS-like car). Maybe Pontiac could use it for the "more expensive than the Grand Prix" model, call it the GTO, and have a really unique entry at that price range!

Edited May 29, 2006 by ZL-1

[CaddyXLR-V]

I hope this shift to RWD moves forward.

I remeber (@ AH-HA's website) someone commenting on a design proposal for the next GTO as a 4-door coupe (a CLS-like car). Maybe Pontiac could use it for the "more expensive than the Grand Prix" model, call it the GTO, and have a really unique entry at that price range!

Or better yet, call it Tempest, or even keep the name Grand Prix. Lets keep the GTO name on true coupes only. Then have a car above that, and call it Bonneville.

[titan]

This should have been done along time ago. They should emulate BMW's lineup and become the everyman's BMW. I still hate that Buick is part of the sales channel. If it's given the right attention, it could easily stand alone with a full lineup of three sedans, a couple of crossovers, and a coupe/vert. Pontiac and GMC should have been paired alone; they're a perfect match, IMHO.

[titan]

1-Series Hatch -> Vibe

3-Series Coupe/Sedan -> G6

5-Series -> Grand Prix

6-Series -> GTO

7-Series -> Bonneville

X3 -> Torrent

Not direct competition, just one-to-one mapping of the lineup.

I agree with this 100%. Been saying it for awhile. Long with GMC trucks, you'd have a full like of narrowly focuded cars and trucks. It's a shame Buick was tossed aside and thrown in the mix with them.

[evok]

This is all speculation at this point in time.

[ocnblu]

Well, people like Bob Lutz and the hundreds of thousands of GM enthusiasts who remember when GM was so far out front they were untouchable have to turn this "speculation" into reality. It must happen if Pontiac is to be a relevant brand once again.

[redfox]

I hope bob lutz stays at gm for a long time he is doing a great job don't know if wagoner is.

[buyacargetacheck]

Good. GTO, Solstice and new Zeta Grand Prix. Done.

Now, do the same for Buick: The return of the Riviera and the Electra both Zeta-based with standard V-8 power priced around 30-35K. Leave the Lambda to GMC and replace the Enclave with a Zeta-based bitchin sports wagon a la Magnum but with irresistable looks. Caballero maybe?

[Carguy]

((GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!))----NEWS!

[Chicagoland]

Looks like GM is really reading this website after all. It will take 5 years, so by then can shuffle some lines.

Give the Vibe to Chevy, Torrent to GMC, and the Montana is already dead. I do agree that the G6 whould offer FWD as a base model, and then AWD. G5 should die when the Cobalt is updated. {Or only offer higher HP models}

By 2011, most P-B-G dealers will be in place, then they can have G6, 'Zeta' Grand Prix, and GTO, along with Solstice.

[regfootball]

Not too big of a deal to me, but I hope this means that Chevy and Saturn are going to STAY predominantly FWD.  There is a very large market for mid/full size FWD cars (look at sales of the Camry, Accord, Even the Impala).  Despite the use of traction and stability controll, I know many people who live in areas where the winter weather gets bad (I have much family in or near Buffalo, NY) that is not interested in RWD at all.  With that said, if Pontiac goes all RWD, then it can be a good thing to give consumers a choice, just make sure you offer full and mid sized cars still in FWD.

Basically, Pontiac can shut its doors in about 20 states if they go to this plan because no one will buy enough of them to keep the doors open. UNLESS they offer all the cars with AWD as well. I wouldn't think another car compnay would be dumb enough to do this, but I do believe GM could be dumb enough to do this because they pull this dumb $h! all the time.

"Hey, let's sell the G6 with a manual transmission!"

"Great idea! The buff books love that stuff"

"Hey, let's put a pushrod engine in it though"

"Sure, we need to get rid of those!"

"how's about we just stretch the wheelbase of this narrow epsilon so we get at least some leg room in the back"

"great idea, but it'll get heavy!"

"that's ok, we'll put a 4 panel heavy sunroof with lots of mechanicals way up high above the center of gravity on the thing, THAT'L KEEP THE CAR PLANTED AT DEM HIGH SPEEDS DOSE GUYS LOVE"

"Wait, I thought wider was better!"

"Not with an Epsilon!"

"Hey, the guys from Rubbermaid called. They have some old plastic they want us to use! Can we make our G6's out of em?

"Sure, but only if we make all the dashboards pitch black......It'll remind em of the CRUDE OIL!"

I am fine with a lot more RWD choices for Pontiac. But most of the car buying public (women, CR readers, liberals with cash, Import Intenders) will not buy a RWD Pontiac....on top of the folks in snow states avoiding them like the plague.

Even wonder why BMW quietly sells AWD 3 and 5 series? Ever notice how Infiniti sells AWD versions of the G and M? I think Lexus even sells AWD of their RWD models now.

If GM and Pontiac simply would execute their cars right, cars like the Grand Prix and G6 would be fine regardless. But neither the G6 nor Grand Prix has the 3.6, the Grand Prix is built on a 1988 Architecture, etc....and so on. For 07 the GXP G6 gets the 3.6 but no stick.

It'll be division suicide if Pontiac goes all RWD and then resorts to its typically absurd level of execution. To top it off, if all they sell is vehicles that DO NOT appeal to women or families, they are toast.

[regfootball]

Ninety-8-R know's what's what. I agree with 100% of

his post. I come off like an ignorant RWD-loving

fanatic but he's nailed it in B&W. This is the next big

step for GM. If they can pull this off they just might

be able to kick Toyota's @$$ after all. Even if they

loose #1 status and don't get it back they'll at least be

making cars people will give a damn about again.

yeah, those half a million Camry buyers a year will flock over to the Pontiac dealer for a RWD pushrod equipped vehicle

[regfootball]

not raining on anyone's parade here, i'm just saying Pontiac will be really narrowing their focus if they do this, potentially to the point where they could cease to be relevant for the majority of the public. And not be good enough for the folks they still would be trying to attract. They would essentially be surrending their ability to ever be a volume brand, with no guarantees of being able to sell anything profitably.

They would just need to make AWD available across the board. Since they don't even make overhead cam available, i highly doubt they would go to the effort to make any of these cars AWD as well. GM never seems to go the distance they need and do what they have to do. They always cheap out and take shortcuts. Their propensity to do that without fail to me means a plan with no margin for error, but a company (GM) with a history of always making errors.

Edited May 30, 2006 by regfootball

[scharmer05]

not raining on anyone's parade here, i'm just saying Pontiac will be really narrowing their focus if they do this, potentially to the point where they could cease to be relevant for the majority of the public.  And not be good enough for the folks they still would be trying to attract.  They would essentially be surrending their ability to ever be a volume brand, with no guarantees of being able to sell anything profitably.

They would just need to make AWD available across the board.  Since they don't even make overhead cam available, i highly doubt they would go to the effort to make any of these cars AWD as well.  GM never seems to go the distance they need and do what they have to do.  They always cheap out and take shortcuts.  Their propensity to do that without fail to me means a plan with no margin for error, but a company (GM) with a history of always making errors.

[thegriffon]

You're missing the point Reg. The question is, with Chevrolet, Saturn and Buick covering all the bases for lower and midscale buyers, what is Pontiac's continued relevance, its reason for existence? The answer which many of us have been promoting, and which AN says GM is seriously considering, is to do something no-one else at this market level can do anymore or has done for more than 20 years—offer a full range of rwd alternatives to the fwd vehicles sold by everyone else. Exactly what that lineup will be and how soon they arrive is pure speculation however. For the near future there may be no changes to what we were expecting them to do anyway.

Edited May 30, 2006 by thegriffon

[ZL-1]

Or better yet, call it Tempest, or even keep the name Grand Prix. Lets keep the GTO name on true coupes only. Then have a car above that, and call it Bonneville.

I think the idea I stated above was to go after the market for expressive design with one single car: coupe-like design in a large mid-size or full-size 4-door format. That could take the place of GTO + Grand Prix + Bonneville and I have to say it again, with a unique offering at that proice point. In short, it would be replacing the 3 models you mentioned for 1 "stand-out-from-the-crowd" car (in fact, it would be Pontiac's halo car).

And now, back to reality

Let's hope this move can be pushed through quickly and become reality, assuming there's a way to make a solid business case for it...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is an excellent strategy IMO...

GM has too many VOLUME divisions... They were never meant to ALL be volume divisions, if that were the case then GM would have to maintain 45% of the market.

I personally would like to see GM do this, Pontiac is NOT a volume division and is supposedly "damaged" so how do you reverse that? You use CORPORATE might to create FANTASTIC niche cars that elevate the division to a desireable status once again... The only catch is; the corporate underpinnings have to be top notch in the first place.

[toesuf94]

am I the only one to read that there would be a Pontiac based off the UPCOMING Camaro? Is that not at least the beginning of a green light for the Camaro production?

[Carguy]

am I the only one to read that there would be a Pontiac based off the UPCOMING Camaro?  Is that not at least the beginning of a green light for the Camaro production?

GOOD POINT!

[CaddyXLR-V]

not raining on anyone's parade here, i'm just saying Pontiac will be really narrowing their focus if they do this, potentially to the point where they could cease to be relevant for the majority of the public.  And not be good enough for the folks they still would be trying to attract.  They would essentially be surrending their ability to ever be a volume brand, with no guarantees of being able to sell anything profitably.

They would just need to make AWD available across the board.  Since they don't even make overhead cam available, i highly doubt they would go to the effort to make any of these cars AWD as well.  GM never seems to go the distance they need and do what they have to do.  They always cheap out and take shortcuts.  Their propensity to do that without fail to me means a plan with no margin for error, but a company (GM) with a history of always making errors.

They cant be a volume brand, and they basically aren't anymore anyway. They are volume due to fleet sales only. I think GM knows Saturn is going to attract some current Pontiac buyers. The Aura will take G6 sales, the Astra will definately take G5 sales. Pontiac should alienate some buyers, so those buyers will go to Saturn. Then Pontiac could start with a new buyer base, who buy on performance.

[Sixty8panther]

not raining on anyone's parade here, i'm just saying Pontiac will be really narrowing their focus if they do this, potentially to the point where they could cease to be relevant for the majority of the public.

Back in 2002 when tha Camaro was cancelled GM and the media

said the demand for RWD sports coupes was dead and that RWD

was a thing of the past. Then a couple years later the RWD

Chrysler 300C was said to be a niche market car since it went

RWD and all the numb masses addicted to the empty promisse of

FWD said it woudl not do as well... I think we all knkow how that

went.

All RWD Pontiac means a MORE focused Pontiac, narrow or not.

THIS is how Pontiac will become a true enthusiasts brand. The

awsome part about this is that it almost guarantees a Kappa

sedan or two. x 100,000,000.

[regfootball]

You're missing the point Reg. The question is, with Chevrolet, Saturn and Buick covering all the bases for lower and midscale buyers, what is Pontiac's continued relevance, its reason for existence? The answer which many of us have been promoting, and which AN says GM is seriously considering, is to do something no-one else at this market level can do anymore or has done for more than 20 years—offer a full range of rwd alternatives to the fwd vehicles sold by everyone else. Exactly what that lineup will be and how soon they arrive is pure speculation however. For the near future there may be no changes to what we were expecting them to do anyway.

in concept its a nice idea. but 10 years ago or so the Bonneville, Grand Prix, Sunfire, and Grand Am were all selling in huge volume, probably all in the top 20 with a couple in the Top 10. Now, did the market change or did Pontiac just not build their product to a high enoug standard to fend off competitors?

I should point out they did this without an all RWD lineup.

There are many less populated parts of the country where a Saturn dealer does not exist. If we only route the fwd upscale cars to Saturn, they are not available all over the US. Plus, Saturn is chasing Honda and Toyota and VW and will turn off those folks by trying to make exclusively high performance cars. Their sportiness will be watered down by their need to be somewhat liberal and rice and tree hugger and 'toyota'.

Chevy will never offer any complete performance cars ever again.

And, chances are Pontiac and GM simply cannot build to the level of execution required if they want those serious niche buyers. the bean counters and shortcut takers always win out in the board room and the cars always get compromised. If they only focus on high performance niche cars and try to sell them to only folks with exacting demands and of course inevitably put out cheese like they always do then its a recipe for complete backfire.

Then the fact that unless you offer AWD on every model in companion to RWD you effectively take away a lot of your market also.

Pontiac has far more heritage than Saturn and deserves to be treated as more than a stupid niche brand. it can embrace high performance AND sell in decent volume.......but GM cannot limit chassis offerings to RWD only and they must EXECUTE the performance, styling, and interiors to levels they have not ever demonstrated that they can build cars to if they want to court those picky serious buyers. I do think a lineup with many RWD cars is a smart move but they need to offer the AWD as well and must also have at least two semi-volume sedans with FWD and true performance also.

Edited May 30, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

This is an excellent strategy IMO...

GM has too many VOLUME divisions... They were never meant to ALL be volume divisions, if that were the case then GM would have to maintain 45% of the market.

I personally would like to see GM do this, Pontiac is NOT a volume division and is supposedly "damaged" so how do you reverse that? You use CORPORATE might to create FANTASTIC niche cars that elevate the division to a desireable status once again... The only catch is; the corporate underpinnings have to be top notch in the first place.

yeah, has GM EVER demonsttrated the ability to build FANTASTIC niche cars that will lure buyers away from import and competing brands? Naw, they usually just slap together something less than current or perfect for the ever decreasing 'GM fatihful' that seem to repel any other shoppers.

[Northstar]

Chevy will never offer any complete performance cars ever again. 

Umm, Corvette, Z06, Camaro, Zeta Impala.

Pontiac doesn't need to appeal to everyone. BMW sells tons of cars and expensively that are all RWD. Pontiac just needs to be a cheap BMW and they'll sell fine.

[regfootball]

They cant be a volume brand, and they basically aren't anymore anyway. They are volume due to fleet sales only. I think GM knows Saturn is going to attract some current Pontiac buyers. The Aura will take G6 sales, the Astra will definately take G5 sales. Pontiac should alienate some buyers, so those buyers will go to Saturn. Then Pontiac could start with a new buyer base, who buy on performance.

if they can credibly build a 'near BMW' for less money and make it something anyone wants. sure, but they have never proven the capability to do anything like that.

I would love it if they could. but imagine the new 'Pontiac coupe' and then we'll find it has 56/44 weight distribution and a 3900 under the hood. And 'dead steering'. yup, that'd be about it. and it would likely wouldn't be near as stylish as a 3 series either.

[regfootball]

Back in 2002 when tha Camaro was cancelled GM and the media

said the demand for RWD sports coupes was dead and that RWD

was a thing of the past. Then a couple years later the RWD

Chrysler 300C was said to be a niche market car since it went

RWD and all the numb masses addicted to the empty promisse of

FWD said it woudl not do as well... I think we all knkow how that

went.

All RWD Pontiac means a MORE focused Pontiac, narrow or not.

THIS is how Pontiac will become a true enthusiasts brand. The

awsome part about this is that it almost guarantees a Kappa

sedan or two. x 100,000,000.

the Chrysler 300 is a success because 'its a mercedes' and because of its penis extender/mafia hitman styling. Most of the poseurs driving one don't care/don't know which wheels are driving the car.

Had the magnum Charger been released with the 300, they would be sitting on lots even longer than they already are.

By the time Gm gets its RWD product to the floor in 2009-12, the press will have turned on them and convinced the country to avoid them anyways.

[regfootball]

Umm, Corvette, Z06, Camaro, Zeta Impala.

there is no camaro or zeta impala right now. It will be interesting to see if the new Camaro has decent weight distribution and the traditional sledlike leaden musclecar handling prowess or the light balanced feel and exacting handling a BMW has.

we do have a malibu SS with a fwd pushrod v6 and a 4 speed if you like.

Edited May 30, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Umm, Corvette, Z06, Camaro, Zeta Impala.

Pontiac doesn't need to appeal to everyone. BMW sells tons of cars and expensively that are all RWD. Pontiac just needs to be a cheap BMW and they'll sell fine.

BMW's volume sellers are available in AWD.

[CaddyXLR-V]

if they can credibly build a 'near BMW' for less money and make it something anyone wants.  sure, but they have never proven the capability to do anything like that. 

I would love it if they could. but imagine the new 'Pontiac coupe' and then we'll find it has 56/44 weight distribution and a 3900 under the hood.  And 'dead steering'.  yup, that'd be about it.  and it would likely wouldn't be near as stylish as a 3 series either.

Well if GM does it right, it will work. I don't think we will be seeing the 3.9 in RWD cars. The 3.6 is already used in RWD cars, and nothing will need to be modified. The 3.9 however, is not used in any RWD cars, and would need to be modified.