Fourth-Quarter 2018: General Motors

[Cmicasa the Great]

9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

"available" and mild  are the key words.

Even if most people actually do choose that option, how many of them actually off road their MILD off roader GMC CUVs?

In my book, either you are an offroading sports utility vehicle or you are a soccer mom, geezermobile appliance vehicle meant to get your old fart ass in and out of the vehicle more easily...

Its always been a ridiculous argument..  98.9999% of the buyers of this segment can't stand to see dirt on their vehicles let alone go out off-roading a BRAND NEW FUKKING CAR THEY ARE MAKING PAYMENTS ON. Its as silly as people claiming that the reason why they would buy a Range Rover over an Escalade is because the RR is more known as a off-road vehicle in the jungles of Africa. Who are the real complainers???The ones waiting for the 10 year old used "hand me down"

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I'm not even upset sedans are going away because I currently have no interest in buying one. 

Only one I have a real issue with losing .. maybe two.. and they should be together on one platform curing any issues as far as sales of said platform. CT6 and IMPALA on Omega. Global. Done and Done

28 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I could go for being myself on Don Johnson Boat in Miami Vice flying through the water.  

 

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

As an enthusiast...I like the idea of a decent 4wd system if I have to give up nimble handling. Advantage...Jeep. 

Doesn't Subaru offer pretty good AWD systems as well? 

Also, that's one thing that does grind my gears about Jeep is that they have like 3 or 4 different AWD/4WD systems for the Grand Cherokee. Some are great and some are as weak as the Blazer.. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I do wonder if GM is doing their normal Stupid thing of bring out the normal levels, then in a year offer a little more performance and then the following year a little more and as they get to mid life, they then offer the SS top performance version. To me just stupid as I have no interest in the lower end versions, but the RS while I love the look inside and out, is trumped by the Trailhawk with the v8 and adjustable suspension for offroad capabilities that the same priced Blazer does not have nor can compete with.

I agree on the lunacy of staggered entry. The world moves too fast these days due to globalization and social media/internet. Introduce all at once.. as many choices as possible.. No way the CT5, for instance, should debut on stage without the CT5-V right next to it.

[A Horse With No Name]

Agree on CT6 and Impala.

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Doesn't Subaru offer pretty good AWD systems as well? 

Also, that's one thing that does grind my gears about Jeep is that they have like 3 or 4 different AWD/4WD systems for the Grand Cherokee. Some are great and some are as weak as the Blazer.. 

Yes...love Subaru for that reason.

8 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Sedans...

not minivans...

Sedans...

Well, the V-Series Cadillacs, the regular sedan Cadillacs, the M cars from BMW, the regular Bimmers and the like beg to differ from this POV.

Also, even if we are talking about understearing front heavy FWD 60/40 weight distribusion sedans, physics come into play. 

Sedans are not tall and top heavy...so...even a  compact 1994 Pontiac Grand Am GT with a lowly 3.1 liter OHV V6 with ONLY 155HP and tons of plastic body cladding and a rattling plastic dashboard is still 10000% times more fun to drive than an Equinox...

Driven hard yes...but the Equinox is a very capable vehicle.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Its always been a ridiculous argument..  98.9999% of the buyers of this segment can't stand to see dirt on their vehicles let alone go out off-roading a BRAND NEW FUKKING CAR THEY ARE MAKING PAYMENTS ON. Its as silly as people claiming that the reason why they would buy a Range Rover over an Escalade is because the RR is more known as a off-road vehicle in the jungles of Africa. Who are the real complainers???The ones waiting for the 10 year old used "hand me down"

Well, at least with a sporty Chevy SS, one can get speeding tickets quite easily even if not drag racing it...

Bottom line is this:

Americans since the late 1970s I think, do not really want exciting cars to DRIVE in. To actually drive.  They want conservative boring appliances to spend their commute in. 

And when cars started to get downsized, the love for big never went away. But along with that love for trucks and SUVs came the love for taller vehicles as well to have the IMAGE of safety and/or offroadability.  

At least when The Dukes of Hazard was on TV and Smokey and the Bandit was on the Silver Screen, just before the downsizing of cars had its affect on people, at least those buyers then actually DID want to be like Bo and Luke Duke and the Bandit...and still bought cars that way. 

The old adage, win on Sunday buy on Monday rang true...then

[A Horse With No Name]

14 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ummmm..NO!!!

 

Its a copy/pasted and enlarged by 25% Mazda CX3 with design elements from a Nissan Murano of a couple of generations ago which in itself is a taller, clumsier Mazda 3 hatchback...

The Grand Cherokee is no styling beauty either...

 

 

 

The fact that so few are built in interesting colors is a bigger issue for me. I like how the GC looks just fine.

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Well, at least with a sporty Chevy SS, one can get speeding tickets quite easily even if not drag racing it...

Bottom line is this:

Americans since the late 1970s I think, do not really want exciting cars to DRIVE in. To actually drive.  They want conservative boring appliances to spend their commute in. 

And when cars started to get downsized, the love for big never went away. But along with that love for trucks and SUVs came the love for taller vehicles as well to have the IMAGE of safety and/or offroadability.  

At least when The Dukes of Hazard was on TV and Smokey and the Bandit was on the Silver Screen, just before the downsizing of cars had its affect on people, at least those buyers then actually DID want to be like Bo and Luke Duke and the Bandit...and still bought cars that way. 

The old adage, win on Sunday buy on Monday rang true...then

I think people especially female buyers want a vehicle that makes them feel safe.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Well, at least with a sporty Chevy SS, one can get speeding tickets quite easily even if not drag racing it...

Bottom line is this:

Americans since the late 1970s I think, do not really want exciting cars to DRIVE in. To actually drive.  They want conservative boring appliances to spend their commute in. 

And when cars started to get downsized, the love for big never went away. But along with that love for trucks and SUVs came the love for taller vehicles as well to have the IMAGE of safety and/or offroadability.  

Well that's what Dodge is capitalizing on.. and GM and Ford only pay attention to in high profit trucks and SUVs. (why is it that no one understands how profitable a Silverado is if they can offer $10K off out the gate) . Anyway.. this is where Cadillac could capitalize big time. A&S in the beginning did. It offered something different in luxo. It still does to a degree, but I fear that the Lexus NX is more radical to look at than the XT5, while the Infiniti Q70 is more radical than the CTS. In off-roading.. GM is screwing up not just resurrecting the damn Hummer name they keep renewing the trademark on. If for no other reason than to attach to a Hummerish looking Canyon/Colorado SUV and a Hummerish looking Pick-Up

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

After Canadian winters, most Canadian women are lucky if they can fit in the charger, forget the shorts. 

MMmmm. Id say no to that. 

AT least with Quebec girls.  The amount of fooling around we do in the winter JUST because we cannot go outside...

Middle aged women on the other hand. Poutine is delicious you see. And very good winter comfort food... But still not lard asses up here.

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

SS Sedan...Trailblazer...

"SS" sedan was the name of the vehicle. I wouldn't count that as a performance trim. The Trailblazer or Cobalt were the last ones that I can think of. 

They no longer offer the first year base engines and roll out performance versions. That hasn't been done in a decade and everything has been new since then. 

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

Driven hard yes...but the Equinox is a very capable vehicle.

Suspension systems have come a loooong way, even since the 1990s.

We all know what a FWD Cobalt SS did back then in the handling department. 

Maybe we do not know what a 1999 Acura Intergra GSR was to the sport compact scene, but at least we got the Cobalt SS to have a visual...

But these are cars from  almost 20 years ago...

All that R&D money spent on engineering a tall CUV so it do not roll over, imagine what could have been done to family hauling sedans' suspensions so they could actually be fun to drive?  (from an enthusiast POV)

As I stated above, reality is that the average American consumer does not care for that...

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"SS" sedan was the name of the vehicle. I wouldn't count that as a performance trim. The Trailblazer or Cobalt were the last ones that I can think of. 

They no longer offer the first year base engines and roll out performance versions. That hasn't been done in a decade and everything has been new since then. 

AT one point in time.. due to Bob Lutz.. there was a Cobalt SS, Malibu SS, Impala SS, Trailblazer SS, Silverado SS, and an Aveo SS... (just jking)

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

AT one point in time.. due to Bob Lutz.. there was a Cobalt SS, Malibu SS, Impala SS, Trailblazer SS, Silverado SS, and an Aveo SS... (just jking)

Facts.. It's honestly disappointing they don't have more SS versions. I get they might not be profitable and you can't do it to everything but with 'Nox and Cruze sales it would be pretty cool to have those offerings. I know I would be in on an equinox SS. 

I'm not sure what they would cram in it or just turn the wick up on the 2.0T but a 300hp/325tq Equinox would be hot. 

I just thought of this.. They have the new 2.7T they could drop in there.. although it's probably not designed for FWD. That would be perfect though. 

[G. David Felt]

43 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Would take a big boat!

We'll it was a 45 footer.  

42 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What was the last vehicle they offered an SS version that wasn't a Camaro? 

Trailblazer SS AWD 2009 was the last one that is NOT a Camaro that I am aware of.

[A Horse With No Name]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Facts.. It's honestly disappointing they don't have more SS versions. I get they might not be profitable and you can't do it to everything but with 'Nox and Cruze sales it would be pretty cool to have those offerings. I know I would be in on an equinox SS. 

I'm not sure what they would cram in it or just turn the wick up on the 2.0T but a 300hp/325tq Equinox would be hot. 

I just thought of this.. They have the new 2.7T they could drop in there.. although it's probably not designed for FWD. That would be perfect though. 

An SS Cruze would have gotten me into a GM showroom to at least look.

18 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

AT one point in time.. due to Bob Lutz.. there was a Cobalt SS, Malibu SS, Impala SS, Trailblazer SS, Silverado SS, and an Aveo SS... (just jking)

Aveo SS would be wicked little beast done right.

21 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Suspension systems have come a loooong way, even since the 1990s.

We all know what a FWD Cobalt SS did back then in the handling department. 

Maybe we do not know what a 1999 Acura Intergra GSR was to the sport compact scene, but at least we got the Cobalt SS to have a visual...

But these are cars from  almost 20 years ago...

All that R&D money spent on engineering a tall CUV so it do not roll over, imagine what could have been done to family hauling sedans' suspensions so they could actually be fun to drive?  (from an enthusiast POV)

As I stated above, reality is that the average American consumer does not care for that...

Car guys and gals are becoming a small minority.

25 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"SS" sedan was the name of the vehicle. I wouldn't count that as a performance trim. The Trailblazer or Cobalt were the last ones that I can think of. 

They no longer offer the first year base engines and roll out performance versions. That hasn't been done in a decade and everything has been new since then. 

Which is why I added Trailblazer.  More impressed personally with the idea of a well developed 4WD system than an SS version for an SUV. Trailhawk anyone?

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

AT one point in time.. due to Bob Lutz.. there was a Cobalt SS, Malibu SS, Impala SS, Trailblazer SS, Silverado SS, and an Aveo SS... (just jking)

 

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Facts.. It's honestly disappointing they don't have more SS versions. I get they might not be profitable and you can't do it to everything but with 'Nox and Cruze sales it would be pretty cool to have those offerings. I know I would be in on an equinox SS. 

I'm not sure what they would cram in it or just turn the wick up on the 2.0T but a 300hp/325tq Equinox would be hot. 

I just thought of this.. They have the new 2.7T they could drop in there.. although it's probably not designed for FWD. That would be perfect though. 

In all honesty, only the Cobalt SS and the Tralblazer SS were truly a good representation of what an "SS" Chevy should be.

The others were just an attempt to sell nostalgia...and cheapened the "SS" moniker in doing so.  Piss poor attempts at being "SS" cars is what Im getting at.  (I do not remember what the Silverado SS was all about though, so I wont include that vehicle)  

The 2005 Impala SS should have been the Lumina SS when GM also did the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP back in 1997. Not in 2005.  Almost a decade too late.  

The Malibu SS? I wont even talk about that one...

Hummer SHOULD be used by GM. The only reason why it went away is because the greenies were attacking Hummer but not Lexus and Toyota or Mercedes and BMW for offering SUVs in their stables. The Hummer was the scape goat for the "gas guzzling SUV" fight they were doing. Irony now is that all manufacturers all selling "gas guzzling SUVs" today...

I do not know how popular "SS" would be with people though.

Laugh if you will, but maybe "SS" could be the electrified versions of said models...

 

[A Horse With No Name]

Hummer H3 would be a wicked cool choice offered today.

Edited January 9, 2019 by A Horse With No Name

[G. David Felt]

49 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Doesn't Subaru offer pretty good AWD systems as well? 

Also, that's one thing that does grind my gears about Jeep is that they have like 3 or 4 different AWD/4WD systems for the Grand Cherokee. Some are great and some are as weak as the Blazer.. 

Before Toyota Bought the Subaru shares from GM, GM with a healthy ownership in Subaru is what used their AWD technology to build a better system which is what you find in the Escalade and now pretty much any of their AWD offerings and like Subabru, you pay for what you get, lesser capable in the cheaper auto's and better in the more expensive versions.

GM makes an excellent AWD system, never had a problem in theirs and I figure it is because of the knowledge gained from Subaru.

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Hummer H3 would be a wicked cool choice offered today.

Yes, offer a Hummer package on the GMC trucks, the crawl ratio and overall off road capabilities puts the Jeeps to shame.

[frogger]

59 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Sedans...

not minivans...

Sedans...

Well, the V-Series Cadillacs, the regular sedan Cadillacs, the M cars from BMW, the regular Bimmers and the like beg to differ from this POV.

Also, even if we are talking about understearing front heavy FWD 60/40 weight distribusion sedans, physics come into play. 

Sedans are not tall and top heavy...so...even a  compact 1994 Pontiac Grand Am GT with a lowly 3.1 liter OHV V6 with ONLY 155HP and tons of plastic body cladding and a rattling plastic dashboard is still 10000% times more fun to drive than an Equinox...

Mainstream buyers don't care that their Malibu handled a little better than a "granny" Equinox.  They didn't care that their Grand Am was just a family sedan with reddish trim and fake intake vents.  If handling was even slightly important to them in the first place they wouldn't have bought a Malibu or Grand Am.   I'm pretty sure a new Equinox would outhandle a $h!ty 1994 Grand Am even if it was new though lol given 1994 Grand Am's had the chassis rigidity of Primo pasta.

For those that actually care, there are still options and they are far better than what used to be available.  A Miata does 0-60 under six seconds, pony cars are pretty much sports cars now, family car Accord 2.0T Sports with a stick shift go for just over 30 grand, Civic Type R is probably the fastest ever FWD track car, even Hyundai/Genesis is in the RWD compact sedan market now.

Edited January 9, 2019 by frogger

[Cmicasa the Great]

25 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Facts.. It's honestly disappointing they don't have more SS versions. I get they might not be profitable and you can't do it to everything but with 'Nox and Cruze sales it would be pretty cool to have those offerings. I know I would be in on an equinox SS. 

I'm not sure what they would cram in it or just turn the wick up on the 2.0T but a 300hp/325tq Equinox would be hot. 

I just thought of this.. They have the new 2.7T they could drop in there.. although it's probably not designed for FWD. That would be perfect though. 

Oh I forgot about the HHR SS.. But Yeah.. anyone really looking to get pissed off early this morning can look no further than Chevy South America where they are introducing and keeping the Cruze SS with a 1.4L Turbo at 296hp

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes, offer a Hummer package on the GMC trucks, the crawl ratio and overall off road capabilities puts the Jeeps to shame.

A proper Conti from Loncoln

A Hummer lineup as a sub brand within GMC

Coupes, convertibles, and wagons fro Cadillac, much like Benz offers

Return of ST twins Focus and Fiesta for Ford, with the Newer Euro Focus...and the RS as well...

Ranger Raptor

Updated Charger and Challenger

Cuda version of Challenger

Trans Am version of Camaro

Updated Chrysler Luxury car to replace the dated but still good 300

A larger power plant for the Malibu, and better marketing by GM

Actual buyers for Buick's excellent passenger cars

An S10 size truck once again from GM

Fully electric Corvette

Part of my domestic wish list

1 minute ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Oh I forgot about the HHR SS.. But Yeah.. anyone really looking to get pissed off early this morning can look no further than Chevy South America where they are introducing and keeping the Cruze SS with a 1.4L Turbo at 296hp

Wish that was here!

[Cmicasa the Great]

9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Before Toyota Bought the Subaru shares from GM, GM with a healthy ownership in Subaru is what used their AWD technology to build a better system which is what you find in the Escalade and now pretty much any of their AWD offerings and like Subabru, you pay for what you get, lesser capable in the cheaper auto's and better in the more expensive versions.

GM makes an excellent AWD system, never had a problem in theirs and I figure it is because of the knowledge gained from Subaru.

Actually.. a great deal of their learning also came from Haldex and their time offering it in the Saab division. The current AWD system in the CT6, for example, is one of the most advanced in the car world.. while the system in the trucks/SUVs as certainly one of the best in the truck world

[A Horse With No Name]

9 minutes ago, frogger said:

Mainstream buyers don't care that their Malibu handled a little better than a "granny" Equinox.  They didn't care that their Grand Am was just a family sedan with reddish trim and fake intake vents.  If handling was even slightly important to them in the first place they wouldn't have bought a Malibu or Grand Am.   I'm pretty sure a new Equinox would outhandle a $h!ty 1994 Grand Am even if it was new though lol given 1994 Grand Am's had the chassis rigidity of Primo pasta.

For those that actually care, there are still options and they are far better than what used to be available.  A Miata does 0-60 under six seconds, pony cars are pretty much sports cars now, family car Accord 2.0T Sports with a stick shift go for just over 30 grand, Civic Type R is probably the fastest ever FWD track car, even Hyundai/Genesis is in the RWD compact sedan market now.

Niche buyers do though. Ford was making good money off of the sT twins before they cancelled them. There is an enthusiast market that will pay money for these things.

Nice use of the term rigidity of wet pasta given the person you are quoting...

Civic Type R is a wonderful vehicle and on my lust list. A proper market would have this going against the Cruze SS Micassa just posted.

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Oh I forgot about the HHR SS.. But Yeah.. anyone really looking to get pissed off early this morning can look no further than Chevy South America where they are introducing and keeping the Cruze SS with a 1.4L Turbo at 296hp

Yeah one of my best friends had an HHR SS. That was one quick little sh!t. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Actually.. a great deal of their learning also came from Haldex and their time offering it in the Saab division. The current AWD system in the CT6, for example, is one of the most advanced in the car world.. while the system in the trucks/SUVs as certainly one of the best in the truck world

Once again, we need to save the CT6. If Chrysler can keep the 300 around GM can damn sure keep the CT6 around.

[frogger]

Even the bread and butter RAV4 and CRV have decent AWD systems as of their latest generation that should be good enough for any runs to the cottage or to the ski hill, but people who want the best at a mass market price will seek out Subaru.

 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Yeah one of my best friends had an HHR SS. That was one quick little sh!t. 

That in a panel version would be on my short list for a neat used car.  HP bump to 300 with the dealer installed Tune kept the warranty also.

[oldshurst442]

9 minutes ago, frogger said:

  I'm pretty sure a new Equinox would outhandle a $h!ty 1994 Grand Am even if it was new though lol given 1994 Grand Am's had the chassis rigidity of Primo pasta.

Grand Ams did not roll over that easily...

Like I said, a lot of R&D development dollars are spent so tall CUVs do not roll over...and THAT is why I mentioned the Grand Am in the first place. The ILLUSION of sportiness via body cladding...

And yes, many options still available. And yes, I did mention that CUVs are being bought today en masse JUST because people today do not care for "performance". 

But please, do NOT think once that CUVs are handlers...they are not.

BMW M versions of their CUVs do a fantastic job of outhandling some sports cars, but even their M versions of their CUVs will NEVER be able to outhandle their M verisons of their cars...

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

Even the bread and butter RAV4 and CRV have decent AWD systems as of their latest generation that should be good enough for any runs to the cottage or to the ski hill, but people who want the best at a mass market price will seek out Subaru.

 

Subaru has bottled and sold the essence of what WW was in the 60's, slightly green and counter culture-ish. If VW had kept that vibe, they would be selling a million vehicles a year in the US. It isn't just GM that has squandered brand equity.

[ccap41]

There isn't much performance a CUV loses to in a Malibu, Fusion, or Impala.. Yeah, there's a Fusion Sport as an outlier. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Grand Ams did not roll over that easily...

Like I said, a lot of R&D development dollars are spent so tall CUVs do not roll over...and THAT is why I mentioned the Grand Am in the first place. The ILLUSION of sportiness via body cladding...

And yes, many options still available. And yes, I did mention that CUVs are being bought today en masse JUST because people today do not care for "performance". 

But please, do NOT think once that CUVs are handlers...they are not.

BMW M versions of their CUVs do a fantastic job of outhandling some sports cars, but even their M versions of their CUVs will NEVER be able to outhandle their M verisons of their cars...

True....but lots of people want an SUV with handling chops also. One of the benefits of the free market is that you build products people want.

[ccap41]

Luckily, 99.9% of driving doesn't involve the limits that a car has an advantage at. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Luckily, 99.9% of driving doesn't involve the limits that a car has an advantage at. 

Lucky for me, a good portion of my life had a nice small fraction that did.

Just now, ccap41 said:

Luckily, 99.9% of driving doesn't involve the limits that a car has an advantage at. 

Quoting a second time...for you...I wish Ford had more power in the Escape. a 2.4/2.5 L like the Renegade has would make that vehicle much more compelling IMHO. With a Turbo like the Forester XT and we would be in bidness.

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There isn't much performance a CUV loses to in a Malibu, Fusion, or Impala.. Yeah, there's a Fusion Sport as an outlier. 

Fusion Sport and Fusion Hybrid were good variations of that platform.

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There isn't much performance a CUV loses to in a Malibu, Fusion, or Impala.. Yeah, there's a Fusion Sport as an outlier. 

That is because the people over at FoMoCo or GM do NOT make performance versions of the Impala or Malibu...

Like you said, the Fusion sport is an outlier, yet even that, the AWD system in the Fusion Sport is NOT the AWD system that is in the Focus ST/RS(?) in that the Fusion Sport is just a turbo V6 sedan and not an Audi S4/Audi S6 type of performance machine...

The Edge ST has the same engine. I would be curious to see how the Fusion Sport and the Edge ST compare to each other since they both use the same engine AND platform... 

Edited January 9, 2019 by oldshurst442

[frogger]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There isn't much performance a CUV loses to in a Malibu, Fusion, or Impala.. Yeah, there's a Fusion Sport as an outlier. 

And based on reviews the handling of the Fusion Sport is not a strength.

[A Horse With No Name]

4 minutes ago, frogger said:

And based on reviews the handling of the Fusion Sport is not a strength.

No, it really isn't...but I am glad Ford built it. 

If I want a sedanish vehicle that really handles...something smaller like the soon to be discontinued Focus ST please.

[oldshurst442]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Luckily, 99.9% of driving doesn't involve the limits that a car has an advantage at. 

True... 

But Im not brain dead either...

 

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

And based on reviews the handling of the Fusion Sport is not a strength.

Because its JUST a turbo V6 sedan as opposed to a torque vectoring Acura TL SH-AWD paws sedan  performance machine...

Ford does use a different AWD system in their hot hatch Focus ST/RS than in the Fusion. The Fusion AWD system is just your basic AWD formula. And the Fusion Sport is NOT produced to compete in the BMW "M", Audi "S", Mercedes "AMG", Acura "SH-AWD PAWS" world, but in the Accord V6, Camry V6 world...

And yes, some people want their CUVs to handle... but physics plays into this whether we like it or not...

 

 

[ccap41]

29 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

That is because the people over at FoMoCo or GM do NOT make performance versions of the Impala or Malibu...

Nor does Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. The sportiest is/was the Fusion Sport. 

[oldshurst442]

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Nor does Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. The sportiest is/was the Fusion Sport. 

Yes...I said that already. But sportier in this case means what?  Slightly faster in a straight line? 

21 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Because its JUST a turbo V6 sedan as opposed to a torque vectoring Acura TL SH-AWD paws sedan  performance machine...

Ford does use a different AWD system in their hot hatch Focus ST/RS than in the Fusion. The Fusion AWD system is just your basic AWD formula. And the Fusion Sport is NOT produced to compete in the BMW "M", Audi "S", Mercedes "AMG", Acura "SH-AWD PAWS" world, but in the Accord V6, Camry V6 world...

 This is the question that Im more interested in though...

39 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Edge ST has the same engine. I would be curious to see how the Fusion Sport and the Edge ST compare to each other since they both use the same engine AND platform... 

 

All this talk though about CUVs and sedans...we forgot about one sedan that is quite the answer for CUVs  but remains a SEDAN, has a hatch, has 310 V6 horsies under the hood and has torque vectoring  AWD.

THIS sedan currently interests me  that is not a Tesla, Model 3 that is. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

33 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Edge ST has the same engine. I would be curious to see how the Fusion Sport and the Edge ST compare to each other since they both use the same engine AND platform... 

Fusion Sport

 

Edge ST

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Nor does Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. The sportiest is/was the Fusion Sport.  

Stinger GT for the RWD biased goodness

 

 

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes...I said that already. But sportier in this case means what?  Slightly faster in a straight line? 

No, they usually give them at least a retuned suspension and sometimes larger or grippier brakes and tires. The Fusion Sport got their "Continuously Controlled Damping" system.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15349337/when-the-roads-gone-to-pot-fords-fusion-sport-will-mitigate-pothole-shocks-video/

41 minutes ago, frogger said:

And based on reviews the handling of the Fusion Sport is not a strength.

It isn't as sporty as an enthusiast wants but it's not a genuine weakness. They gave it a pretty neat suspension system.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15349337/when-the-roads-gone-to-pot-fords-fusion-sport-will-mitigate-pothole-shocks-video/

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Actually.. a great deal of their learning also came from Haldex and their time offering it in the Saab division. The current AWD system in the CT6, for example, is one of the most advanced in the car world.. while the system in the trucks/SUVs as certainly one of the best in the truck world

Yup, I totally forgot about the Haldex system and Saab, that is such a history note in the books for me.

[ccap41]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 This is the question that Im more interested in though...

You didn't have a question mark in the paragraph. What was the question? 

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You didn't have a question mark in the paragraph. What was the question? 

You answered it with the Edge and Fusion comparisons  that Im still reading and still in the process of processing the info that Ford really did a good job in making the Edge truly behave like a sporty car.   LOL

Thanx! 

Edited January 9, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

Just now, oldshurst442 said:

You answered it with the Edge and Fusion comparisons  that Im stilol reading.  LOL

Thanx! 

Hahaha youi're welcome! 

Full articles, if you're interested. 

Fusion Sport

Edge ST

[ocnblu]

7 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Laugh if you will, but maybe "SS" could be the electrified versions of said models...

pfffffttt....... major down vote on that

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

pfffffttt....... major down vote on that

I said "laugh" if you will...

I NEVER said down vote. Not minor-ly and especially not major-ly.

 

[regfootball]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes...I said that already. But sportier in this case means what?  Slightly faster in a straight line? 

 This is the question that Im more interested in though...

 

All this talk though about CUVs and sedans...we forgot about one sedan that is quite the answer for CUVs  but remains a SEDAN, has a hatch, has 310 V6 horsies under the hood and has torque vectoring  AWD.

THIS sedan currently interests me  that is not a Tesla, Model 3 that is. 

and yet it's a yawner to drive..........  if it had a decent engine it would be something possibly.  by decent engine, i mean it is begging for a twin turbo v6.

Edited January 9, 2019 by regfootball

[oldshurst442]

25 minutes ago, regfootball said:

and yet it's a yawner to drive..........

I have not driven it so I do not know. I havent even sat in one.  And yet, just by your words, I do not doubt you one bit.

So...if I take your word for it, I may scratch this off my list for potential Acura TL SH-AWD replacement if I total my car tomorrow. (knock on wood)  

I do not want to kick a dead horse here, but I REFUSE to cave in to the CUV/SUV thing. But there are virtually no sedans that I care about either... 

There is this Buick, the Ford Fusion Sport, the Tesla Model 3 that may be just a tad over what I would want to spend on a car, (because I would want the AWD extended battery version...)   

The Impala LTZ would be cool to own.  

So, Im quite limited in sedan purchases as of now. 

The Impala and the Fusion are going away. The Regal sometime soon too I assume.

I hate the Acura TLX.  

Im keeping my TL as long as I can!  

 

PS: Then I saw your addition to the Twin Turbo thing.

Its got 310  horses.

The Acura TL SH-AWD I currently drive has 305. With 290 ft/lbs of torque give or take 5.  I think the Buick has more torque but it maybe a tad heavier than the Acura.

It does not matter. 300 horsepower and 300 ft/lbs of torque give or take on naturally aspirated V6 power is plenty for my enthusiasts needs. 

Like @ccap41 said above for CUVs/SUVs. 99.9% of driving doesn't involve the limits that a car has an advantage at. 

It goes for cars too.  99.9% of driving on public streets doesnt involve the limits of a car period...

The thing is, because a car is LOWER to the ground, it inherently drives sportierthan a higher off the ground vehicle does.... 

Then we could go on with heft. And yes, AWD kills sportiness too...Limits may be higher with AWD as a 911 Turbo will tell you, but a lighter vehicle is probably a more satisfying ride...

And I do not like AWD either. I bought the TL SH-AWD for the 305 naturally aspirated horses under the hood rather than the 285 or so the regualr TL had to offer. The AWD came with it....

Its a never ending  discussion, isnt it?

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Laugh if you will, but maybe "SS" could be the electrified versions of said models...

I so totally agree with this statement!

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Then we could go on with heft. And yes, AWD kills sportiness too..

Sorry, but I will have to disagree with you all the time about AWD kills Sportiness, we have way to many outstanding AWD cars to drive and there are some excellent sport SUVs. My Trailblazer SS AWD is a blast to drive and there is NOTHING lacking in the Sportiness department.