GM News: General Motors Announces Job Cuts and Plant Shutdowns in North America

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Yeah, with GM pretty much any small car they have had since the 70s has been unrelentingly mediocre...the Vega, the '80s-90s J-cars, etc.. the Cruze may have been decent, but it didn't seem to catch on in the market. 

Cruze was/is an awesome car.. at one time led the market in sales... led the market in fuel economy.. led the market in content.. GM as always when it comes to low profit vehicles... chose not to advertise it. U can bet one thing.. if GM is advertising it.. it is either BRAND NEW.. or HIGH PROFIT.  Now.. I like how suddenly the idea that MAZDA is so great just because they are keeping the 3.. NEWSFLASH!!! MAZDA is about a 1/5 the size of GMNA.. Also.. the market line-up looks better.. again.. I just wish that the CRUZE name would have have simply moved to the Sonic. As it stands

Chevy will have: Spark, Sonic, Trax, Bolt, Malibu, Equinox, Blazer, Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, and Trucks.  There is also another suv coming from what I hear

Cadillac by 2020: CT3, CT5, XT4, XT5, XT6, Escalade.. and if they are still doing the "new product every 6 months and U still count the CT3 and 5.. there are at least two-three more vehicles being intro'ed by '20, one of which is obviously the XT6

That being said.. some else has pointed out that Cadillac will have no performance vehicles.. when at the worst case they will have EXACTLY the amount of performance vehicles they have RIGHT NOW.. as the CT6-V is not out for another 6 months

again.. this is a sexy lil whip.. and she actually got rid of her Equinox to get it. I actually contemplated finding a wrecked Verano turbo and snatching the engine to supe this lil thing up.. It gets around with just 138HP, and I swear more if U use Premium gas.. but with 250 it would be crazy fun

[A Horse With No Name]

20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Do you want me to go to any forum for any car and LOOK for issues? 

I could probably find issues with your Escalade if I went to a forum and looked for them. 

Yes, Ford is taking care of the buyers of past models, at least. They extended the warranty, if the issue isn't fixed after three visits to a dealership they buy it back, they cover towing and repairs on it.. big fck up to let it get to that point. 

I will fully give you that Ford is walking through the front door on this one.  And the RS is indeed a sexy beast. Even I might be willing to cross party lines for THAT...

6 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Cruze was/is an awesome car.. at one time led the market in sales... led the market in fuel economy.. led the market in content.. GM as always when it comes to low profit vehicles... chose not to advertise it. U can bet one thing.. if GM is advertising it.. it is either BRAND NEW.. or HIGH PROFIT.  Now.. I like how suddenly the idea that MAZDA is so great just because they are keeping the 3.. NEWSFLASH!!! MAZDA is about a 1/5 the size of GMNA.. Also.. the market line-up looks better.. again.. I just wish that the CRUZE name would have have simply moved to the Sonic. As it stands

Chevy will have: Spark, Sonic, Trax, Bolt, Malibu, Equinox, Blazer, Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, and Trucks.  There is also another suv coming from what I hear

Cadillac by 2020: CT3, CT5, XT4, XT5, XT6, Escalade.. and if they are still doing the "new product every 6 months and U still count the CT3 and 5.. there are at least two-three more vehicles being intro'ed by '20, one of which is obviously the XT6

That being said.. some else has pointed out that Cadillac will have no performance vehicles.. when at the worst case they will have EXACTLY the amount of performance vehicles they have RIGHT NOW.. as the CT6-V is not out for another 6 months

again.. this is a sexy lil whip.. and she actually got rid of her Equinox to get it. I actually contemplated finding a wrecked Verano turbo and snatching the engine to supe this lil thing up.. It gets around with just 138HP, and I swear more if U use Premium gas.. but with 250 it would be crazy fun

Ohhh it is a dandy little car....it's just a division 1 College sophomore trying to play in the NFL. I never said it was a bad car....just that it was outclassed.

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

There's no way one can rightfully claim GM was 'not passionate' about an air-cooled, rear-engined full line of small cars AND trucks that introduced (along with the Olds Jetfire) now-ubitquitous turbochargers (and was one of the very early bucket seat cars too) to the market, and kept being marketed another 3 years past 1 book that was published in '65 and only succumbed to a changing market (musclecars). The 3rd generation had a ton of development work going before the project was shelved, so they didn't give up in '65, either. The Corvair may be the most passionate, dedicated small car project in history.

Given the amount of financial good the Corvair did GM...the passion was the passion of two 15 year olds fooling around in the back seat of that 64 Bonneville.  They were not sure what to do once the clothes came off, and things went downhill from there. Same with GM's small car offerings...

2 hours ago, ykX said:

The fact that you guys talk about last "good" GM small cars from 60s and 70s says a lot.

At least Ford had Focus, Fiesta, Mondeo in Europe.

We didn't say good, we insinuated passionate...see above response...

[ykX]

11 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Cruze was/is an awesome car.

 

I test drove current and previous Cruze.  It is a good car but there was nothing "awesome" about it.  It wasn't the worst in the segment and it was by far not the best in the segment.  I drove a number of other cars in the segment as well so I have a decent enough idea.  Just my personal opinion of course that seems most publications agree with it,  Also, only you can call it "sexy"

Edited November 30, 2018 by ykX

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Do not forget their best one yet, the 1991 Escort GT, that was the best Ford built as it was Built by Mazda for Ford. Insurance industry went to task over the GT Pocket Rocket. That was a solid reliable long last car. Ford has gone down hill ever since they stopped that car and decided to build their crappy replacement.

How can you fit in an Escort and not fit in any other passenger car, domestic or foreign? Ford must really work some powerful magic...maybe they should have loaned some of that magic to GM

1 minute ago, ykX said:

I test drove current and previous Cruze.  It is a good car but there was nothing "awesome" about it.  It wasn't the worst in the segment and it was by far not the best in the segment.  I drove a number of other cars in the segment as well so I have a decent enough idea.  Just my personal opinion of course that seems most publications agree with it,  Also, only you can call it "sexy"

Agree completely.  Look...I am not saying that it is a bad car. I am saying I would like to see GM take all of that wasted motion and use it elsewhere. How awesome would a new Riviera be? Build that in Lordstown, instead of importing the Cascadia from Poland or wherever.

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Try to get this back on the topic of GM cuts. 

How about all of the vendors and suppliers who will be screwed....this is going to go far beyond 15,000 jobs. Especially if the replacement vehicles are built in Mexico, China, or wherever.

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Me? I'm loyal to one.. 

You redeemed yourself in spectacular fashion.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Corvair was awesome.. Especially the Spyder. Either way.. The Cobalt SS is still a car to run.. And my daughter's Cruze has been awesome and looks great. While I am cool with the current looks of the Cruze.. Her Cruze is much "sexier" and GM could have continued with the look for another 5. Hell the Verano's turbo power train would have fixed a lot of perception problems in it not having an SS model. 

Again, passion...why did they not offer this powertrain option? And the Corvair Yenko Stinger outran Shelby Mustangs....take THAT Ford...and this coming from a guy whose previous 66 Mustang Fastback was his favorite ever car.

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Assuming that was so, explain the 1971 Chevy Vega.

I would rock a rusty Vega without heat through a dozen Ohio winters before I would ever cheer for Dallas...

[Robert Hall]

10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

How can you fit in an Escort and not fit in any other passenger car, domestic or foreign? Ford must really work some powerful magic...maybe they should have loaned some of that magic to GM

 

That perplexed me also...maybe he was only 5' 7" then and had a growth spurt after? Or replaced the driver's seat with a thin foam pad flat on the floor? Or had a sunroof and drove with his head through it?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Robert Hall

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

That perplexed me also...maybe he was only 5' 7" then and had a growth spurt after?  Or had a sunroof and drove with his head through it?

Those steroids he used in College did something interesting....?

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

39 minutes ago, ykX said:

I test drove current and previous Cruze.  It is a good car but there was nothing "awesome" about it.  It wasn't the worst in the segment and it was by far not the best in the segment.  I drove a number of other cars in the segment as well so I have a decent enough idea.  Just my personal opinion of course that seems most publications agree with it,  Also, only you can call it "sexy"

I think that over the years.. I have proved that in the end.. I really couldn't give a flying *** what most people think.. So IT IS SEXY. The majority of publications are populated by nerdy slob yuppies who automatically use terms like "Cadillac is back," "Its not your grandfather's Buick," "I can't believe this is a Ford.." etc.. I've been proving them wrong on their bull$h! for years, proving that PAYOLA is a alive and well at MT, C&D, and R&T.. that Consumer Reports is anti-Domestic.. and that Jalopnik are a a bunch of goofy dweebs.

For every one of those $h!ty allusions.. I could say if Cadillac never left.. they just took a break.. WTF is happening over at the "Bord"rooms of Toyota, with such boring mediocrity coming from Lexus and Benz. Is it true that the CLA is actually a Benz with Nissan origins?

.. or Buick's for old people.. have U seen who's driving BMWs and Audis these days??? Look between the seats and all U see are gray hairs. 

Fords are unreliable??? Heck outta here.. Honda's transmission issues are things of legend.. the boys at Nissan should be worried more about the quality of an Altima than the stuff Carlos Ghosn is reporting or his narcissism 

As to the other cars in the segment... brah.., the truth of the matter is that outside of a top hi-po version of whatever was out.. they are all run of the mill in many people's eyes overall. Nobody's getting laid cause they pulled up in a Civic, Corolla, Cruze, Maz3 etc.

And NOW.. GM has finally WISED THE HELL UP. It paid back its loans.. served this country for over a century... and what have some done??? Went out and bought other countries' cars after they had a few missteps. Well I have it on good authority that Toyota tried to kill people by slamming the accelerator too much and before that.. grenading engines by sludging them up.. Honda's glass trannies, and super embedding in the Takata thing.. Nissan's are the Chrysler of Japan.. nuff said.. Fiats??? REALLY? They earned the name of FIX IT AGAIN TONY for a reason.. nothing has changed in 50 years. Land Rover? Sure they can go off road.. but when they get there.. they need a Chevy or a Ford to pull them out. Not because of the suspensions system, but because they turned off, and wouldn't start back up. Mercedes? They are the epitome of luxury now right.. WRONG!!! Have U been in an E-Class, let alone a C or CLA.. GLA.. GLC.. GLE.. U HAVE TO BUY THE DESIGNO INTERIOR or U are stick in an interior that barely usurps my CHEVY IMPALA'S as luxury

Like I said they wised up! Stopped offering Factory Welfare to the masses that went out and spent that money in Japan, Korea, and Germany. Imagine that.. Ta hell with self preservation . Its what those German VW buyers do. Americans factory workers will use their unemployment check to pay the salary of an actual employees worker over in Korea.. , because U see.. even if Hyundai builds their car here.. they still use those profits to help fund the operations of the HQ in Korea.. including employees thru-out the world.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Cmicasa the Great

[Cmicasa the Great]

33 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Again, passion...why did they not offer this powertrain option?

Because they have the Camaro and Corvette combo.. not to mention performance on the top end and middle with the Regal GS and AT2 and CTS. 

Honda/Acura doesn't have that.. even with the NSX in limited supply

Toyota doesn't have that.. even with the RC and SC. 

Nissan is the only one that comes close with their combination of the 370z and GTR.. and come on.. a 370Z can't eff with a Camaro all thru out the ranges.. and a GTR barely runs with a GS let alone a Z06 and ZR1

[A Horse With No Name]

23 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Because they have the Camaro and Corvette combo.. not to mention performance on the top end and middle with the Regal GS and AT2 and CTS. 

Honda/Acura doesn't have that.. even with the NSX in limited supply

Toyota doesn't have that.. even with the RC and SC. 

Nissan is the only one that comes close with their combination of the 370z and GTR.. and come on.. a 370Z can't eff with a Camaro all thru out the ranges.. and a GTR barely runs with a GS let alone a Z06 and ZR1

Exactly....Although it would be an awesome powertrain Option. Kind of like the l79 66 Nova that was supposedly faster than some of the Vettes they offered that year...

31 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I think that over the years.. I have proved that in the end.. I really couldn't give a flying *** what most people think.. So IT IS SEXY. The majority of publications are populated by nerdy slob yuppies who automatically use terms like "Cadillac is back," "Its not your grandfather's Buick," "I can't believe this is a Ford.." etc.. I've been proving them wrong on their bull$h! for years, proving that PAYOLA is a alive and well at MT, C&D, and R&T.. that Consumer Reports is anti-Domestic.. and that Jalopnik are a a bunch of goofy dweebs.

For every one of those $h!ty allusions.. I could say if Cadillac never left.. they just took a break.. WTF is happening over at the "Bord"rooms of Toyota, with such boring mediocrity coming from Lexus and Benz. Is it true that the CLA is actually a Benz with Nissan origins?

.. or Buick's for old people.. have U seen who's driving BMWs and Audis these days??? Look between the seats and all U see are gray hairs. 

Fords are unreliable??? Heck outta here.. Honda's transmission issues are things of legend.. the boys at Nissan should be worried more about the quality of an Altima than the stuff Carlos Ghosn is reporting or his narcissism 

As to the other cars in the segment... brah.., the truth of the matter is that outside of a top hi-po version of whatever was out.. they are all run of the mill in many people's eyes overall. Nobody's getting laid cause they pulled up in a Civic, Corolla, Cruze, Maz3 etc.

And NOW.. GM has finally WISED THE HELL UP. It paid back its loans.. served this country for over a century... and what have some done??? Went out and bought other countries' cars after they had a few missteps. Well I have it on good authority that Toyota tried to kill people by slamming the accelerator too much and before that.. grenading engines by sludging them up.. Honda's glass trannies, and super embedding in the Takata thing.. Nissan's are the Chrysler of Japan.. nuff said.. Fiats??? REALLY? They earned the name of FIX IT AGAIN TONY for a reason.. nothing has changed in 50 years. Land Rover? Sure they can go off road.. but when they get there.. they need a Chevy or a Ford to pull them out. Not because of the suspensions system, but because they turned off, and wouldn't start back up. Mercedes? They are the epitome of luxury now right.. WRONG!!! Have U been in an E-Class, let alone a C or CLA.. GLA.. GLC.. GLE.. U HAVE TO BUY THE DESIGNO INTERIOR or U are stick in an interior that barely usurps my CHEVY IMPALA'S as luxury

Like I said they wised up! Stopped offering Factory Welfare to the masses that went out and spent that money in Japan, Korea, and Germany. Imagine that.. Ta hell with self preservation . Its what those German VW buyers do. Americans factory workers will use their unemployment check to pay the salary of an actual employees worker over in Korea.. , because U see.. even if Hyundai builds their car here.. they still use those profits to help fund the operations of the HQ in Korea.. including employees thru-out the world.

No sane person could look at the new Regal and say that Buicks are just for Old people. No sane person.

[dwightlooi]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

I truly believe auto's like the Cruze never had a chance with the poor marketing that GM has done for auto's. 

They seem to as is now clear with Cadillac advertise the hell out of a single auto. XT4 and then I doubt in a year we will hear anything about it. Mercedes-Benz and Kia coping them seems to understand the need to market the family of auto's and point out the performance, family hauler, date night, etc. cars in the family and start and end with an overview of the whole family of choices.

Why does GM not get this, XT4 can be the highlight, but why not show off the full family of CUV/SUV and give them all some lime light.

As a model, the Cruze is selling OK. 140,000~150,000 units is by any measure an OK figure. The CTS is at 9,000 give or take and all Mini models combined didn't even hit 50,000. GM sells about 1.5 times more Cruzes that BMW sells 3-series and 4-series vehicles combined. The problem is not volume.

The problem with the Cruze is that it is not profitable.

Edited November 30, 2018 by dwightlooi

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

How can you fit in an Escort and not fit in any other passenger car, domestic or foreign? Ford must really work some powerful magic...maybe they should have loaned some of that magic to GM

My money is he's just full of sh!t most of the time.

[A Horse With No Name]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

My money is he's just full of sh!t most of the time.

Maybe he can weigh himself so he knows how much to dip back out when he goes to the bathroom....(just kidding!)

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

My money is he's just full of sh!t most of the time.

WOW, full of shit. Right, so much for being polite and accepting of others and their different opinions.

I usually do not fit in small cars, but the Escort GT was my first new car out of college and Mazda built it so I could fit in the car with head room to spare. Yes no one could sit behind me but I fit just fine and it became the wife's car.

Some do build roomy small cars for single big guys.

[A Horse With No Name]

24 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WOW, full of shit. Right, so much for being polite and accepting of others and their different opinions.

I usually do not fit in small cars, but the Escort GT was my first new car out of college and Mazda built it so I could fit in the car with head room to spare. Yes no one could sit behind me but I fit just fine and it became the wife's car.

Some do build roomy small cars for single big guys.

I think he was kidding, not meaning anything nasty. At least that was my take.

Wish you were a smaller guy, would ahve you come out and ride with us when we autocross. I no longer race, but Brian, the guy I share my workshop with, my son Joel, and my daughters boyfriend Jeff all race. Jeff Races a 350Z, Joel races a Nissan 240, and Brian races an Acura Integra.

Daughter will be running a Subie Impreza next year.  Would like to get back in myself, but I have too many other irons in the fire, and will have for some time.

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Exactly....Although it would be an awesome powertrain Option. Kind of like the l79 66 Nova that was supposedly faster than some of the Vettes they offered that year...

No sane person could look at the new Regal and say that Buicks are just for Old people. No sane person.

and I love the sport back..

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

As a model, the Cruze is selling OK. 140,000~150,000 units is by any measure an OK figure. The CTS is at 9,000 give or take and all Mini models combined didn't even hit 50,000. GM sells about 1.5 times more Cruzes that BMW sells 3-series and 4-series vehicles combined. The problem is not volume.

The problem with the Cruze is that it is not profitable.

Hence.. DEATH!!! I maintain that when the Verano was selling it was actually more profitable.. Even worse is that the Cruze offers everything the Malibu and even Impala have.. 'cept its smaller and cheaper. Why??? Why can Toyota get away with offering a Corolla which is fundamentally the same car as it was 20 years ago??? Because it doesn't market it as anything other than BASIC. If GM had of marketed the Cruze as a basic car and not some mini Impala I think that they could have gotten away with lessening content, thus improving profits. Shoot.. I'd go so far as to say that U only have the newest workers assembling Cruzes just because U pay them less due to the UAW contract. 

[dwightlooi]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

and I love the sport back..

Hence.. DEATH!!! I maintain that when the Verano was selling it was actually more profitable.. Even worse is that the Cruze offers everything the Malibu and even Impala have.. 'cept its smaller and cheaper. Why??? Why can Toyota get away with offering a Corolla which is fundamentally the same car as it was 20 years ago??? Because it doesn't market it as anything other than BASIC. If GM had of marketed the Cruze as a basic car and not some mini Impala I think that they could have gotten away with lessening content, thus improving profits. Shoot.. I'd go so far as to say that U only have the newest workers assembling Cruzes just because U pay them less due to the UAW contract. 

They could have... the Cruze is the Basic Cruze. There is one engine choice, there is one transmission choice, you get power windows, locks, AC and Bluetooth. There is no options other than color. And, screw the 1.4L turbo four. You get a 2.5L Atkinson Four with a single cam. Size doesn't really cost money; steel is cheap. 3,000 lbs of steel costs $1200 (give or take).

If you want a more luxurious compact with a posh interior, lots of equipment and lots of tech, get the Buick D2xx.

Edited November 30, 2018 by dwightlooi

[trinacriabob]

On 11/26/2018 at 4:22 PM, regfootball said:

i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then f@#k them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two $h!s about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

 

So many GM vehicles detract from CAFE that I think the Cruze will stick around.  They've gotten rid of the Sonic and maybe even the little one (Spark?).  It's hard to imagine Chevrolet with just 2 bread and butter cars.

I agree.  Cadillac would seem ridiculous without a flagship sedan.  Considering America is getting grayer, there will be more people who could opt for a Cadillac.  I don't understand where these people are going.  It might be people who bought their first Toyota in their 30s and are now Lexus customers. 

Even though there are younger buyers of the CT6 compared to the days of the Devilles and the DTSs, I still see more seniors driving them.  I hope the CT6 lives on.

I can't believe the hit this would take on Oshawa, Ontario.  That plant has the largest number of workers.  Michigan doesn't need any more hits.  But, hey, maybe they'll build more Hyundais and Kias in the South to satiate Americans.  I remember when Meg Whitman was running for Governor of California and, with her coming from business and not from politics, she proposed slashing the state's workforce by 30 percent.   The impact on metro Sacramento's economy would have been disastrous, with so many well paid state employees living there.  She didn't get elected.  The reality is that the state's workforce could have been cut by 30 percent.  I have a friend with a technical degree in a high paying job at the state and it seemed like he worked 5 hours out of every 8.  I can't believe some of the goings-on with people I know in the state's employ.  Some people there are also married to their hourly smoke breaks.  I'm sure there are some hard workers in the fold.

I've given up.  I just hope I can buy a regular car with 4 or 2 doors and a fuel efficient gasoline engine when I'm ready to replace my current one.

On 11/30/2018 at 4:35 PM, Cmicasa the Great said:

and I love the sport back..

Hence.. DEATH!!! I maintain that when the Verano was selling it was actually more profitable.. Even worse is that the Cruze offers everything the Malibu and even Impala have.. 'cept its smaller and cheaper. Why??? Why can Toyota get away with offering a Corolla which is fundamentally the same car as it was 20 years ago??? Because it doesn't market it as anything other than BASIC. If GM had of marketed the Cruze as a basic car and not some mini Impala I think that they could have gotten away with lessening content, thus improving profits. Shoot.. I'd go so far as to say that U only have the newest workers assembling Cruzes just because U pay them less due to the UAW contract. 

Evidently Hyundai is able to make a buck with the Accent, priced at under $20,000 and with few option boxes that need to be checked.  That car is full of content. 

The Cruze is a now a great little car.  The packaging and pricing leave a lot to be desired.  And, yes, the Verano, coming in at a higher price point, would have had more margin for profit since it's on the same platform, save for the better build quality of the interior trim and additional sound dampening material.

Edited December 1, 2018 by trinacriabob

[riviera74]

Once the EVs are out, those will more than make up for the thirstier CUVs and SUVs and Camaro/Corvette.  If the Cruze was selling like it did 3-5 years ago, then Lordstown would be salvaged.

[ocnblu]

14 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Once the EVs are out, those will more than make up for the thirstier CUVs and SUVs and Camaro/Corvette.  If the Cruze was selling like it did 3-5 years ago, then Lordstown would be salvaged.

LOL but who is going to buy EVs?  No one is beating down the doors asking for them.  They're resisting them like the plague.

[G. David Felt]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

LOL but who is going to buy EVs?  No one is beating down the doors asking for them.  They're resisting them like the plague.

WRONG, You have become like SMK, your hatred for all things EV has blinded you to the fact that the choices that consumers want are not there yet. Leaf and Bolt fill a demand of a small segment, Tesla fills a richer segment but none of those 5 EVs are what consumers want. Many people here including myself have stated that especially for those of us with partners. What is out there does not meet the needs of a happy couple, so we wait for additional options.

CUVs / SUVs that are pure electric will sell and sell in quantity. 

Example is China where they are selling millions a year of Electric SUV/CUVs as that is what consumers want and clearly here as well. 

Jaguar and I fully expect once they are available Mercedes-Benz will sell all they make of their CUV EVs.

I will go and say this, if GM builds the new Trailblazer with a proper VOLT Powertrain, they will sell in great numbers.

[G. David Felt]

This story I believe is spot on and will make loyalty to a brand of product harder. Due to the cost of an Auto, having your employees drive what you make is hard now and will just get harder due to the cost of the auto.

https://flipboard.com/@flipboard/-salaried-workers-beware-gm-cuts-are-a-w/f-d67435d894%2Fapnews.com 

I believe this is a perfect point of what the jobs are that will be eliminated:

 The jobs that GM will shed through buyouts and layoffs are now held by people who are experts in the internal combustion engine, mechanical engineers and managers who work on complex components that won't be needed on the much simpler electric vehicles that the largest U.S. automaker says are its future.

I believe this story by Bloomberg is also spot on and tells us what to expect to come for our luv of all things trucks and SUV / CUVs:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-30/gm-bets-on-bigger-greener-cars-and-it-isn-t-alone 

Some interesting quotes from the bloomberg story:

Five years ago, medium- and full-size pickups were the largest group of vehicles sold within the U.S. light truck category. Since the start of 2016, though, a single class of SUVs — compact crossovers, such as the Ford Escape, Honda CR-V, Subaru Forester and Toyota RAV4 — has been bigger on its own than the entire pickup market.

American cars are now light trucks; American light trucks are now SUVs.

I’m in Shanghai this week, where electric vehicles with their distinctive green license plates are easy to spot. Most of them are Chinese-made; many of them are small SUVs. They also match nicely with the (not just American) preference for taller SUVs and crossovers.

CLOSING COMMENT IN THE STORY:

If Rivian, and its eventual electric pickup peers, are successful in the U.S., they’ll be growing in a flat auto market. That makes Scaringe’s goal intriguing, because it would mean eating into demand, even incrementally, from another vehicle class. The question, then, is this: Would a $69,000 electric pickup eat into the top end of the truck market or the heart of the luxury SUV market?

[ocnblu]

"WRONG" LOL you slay me with your comedic stylings

[riviera74]

The best way to prove ocnblu wrong is simple: replace the Volt with an Equinox-sized CUV at Equinox prices.  Then watch the sales over the next two years.

[Robert Hall]

49 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

The best way to prove ocnblu wrong is simple: replace the Volt with an Equinox-sized CUV at Equinox prices.  Then watch the sales over the next two years.

Which is a vehicle Chevy should have had 5 years ago...

[daves87rs]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:44 AM, ykX said:

I test drove current and previous Cruze.  It is a good car but there was nothing "awesome" about it.  It wasn't the worst in the segment and it was by far not the best in the segment.  I drove a number of other cars in the segment as well so I have a decent enough idea.  Just my personal opinion of course that seems most publications agree with it,  Also, only you can call it "sexy"

While I like the hatch.....it’s a jelly bean on wheel.....

[ocnblu]

Drove a customer's 2018 Equinox LT AWD 1.5t today, around the block.  I am not missing anything.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Drove a customer's 2018 Equinox LT AWD 1.5t today, around the block.  I am not missing anything.

So just like your Jeep appliance then!  

[ocnblu]

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

So just like your Jeep appliance then!  

Yup except my appliance at least has a stick shift.

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Yup except my appliance at least has a stick shift.

Which is a rarity in any CUV or SUV nowadays...it's cool to see the new Gladiator is available w/ a V6/manual combo.  Would like to see more sticks available. 

[balthazar]

On 12/2/2018 at 3:05 PM, dfelt said:

CUVs / SUVs that are pure electric will sell and sell in quantity. Example is China where they are selling millions a year of Electric SUV/CUVs as that is what consumers want and clearly here as well. 

Jaguar and I fully expect once they are available Mercedes-Benz will sell all they make of their CUV EVs.

China sold 770K EVs in 2017, not "millions". But that market is also 70% comprised of smaller than 1.6 liter cars. It's not comparable to the USDM, where we're struggling to move 200K EVs and have loads of 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles. China is not a template that fits the USDM.

Mercedes has pushed numerous hybrid cars that have done poorly among other hybrid cars. I have not seen any evidence their next attempt with EVs is going to do much better, but we'll see. They are playing catch up, and have been showing steady slipping sales; perhaps buyers in those price tiers are growing tired of mercedes.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

China sold 770K EVs in 2017, not "millions". But that market is also 70% comprised of smaller than 1.6 liter cars. It's not comparable to the USDM, where we're struggling to move 200K EVs and have loads of 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles. China is not a template that fits the USDM.

Mercedes has pushed numerous hybrid cars that have done poorly among other hybrid cars. I have not seen any evidence their next attempt with EVs is going to do much better, but we'll see. They are playing catch up, and have been showing steady slipping sales; perhaps buyers in those price tiers are growing tired of mercedes.

Where did you get your China Number as I know there is fluctuation between different reporting outfits.

The millions on the road and 1.23 million sold last year from both domestic and foreign brands comes from:

https://www.statista.com/chart/14098/electric-car-sales-are-surging-in-china/

http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/china/

It is interesting to see where they go and you are correct what works in China is not going to work in the US. Very different dynamics and expectations. They have a young auto culture and so EVs I expect to catch on faster than in the US with the Baby boomers and 50-60 year olds resisting change.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Yup except my appliance at least has a stick shift.

That is just cause we know you love a stick with a knob on it!  

[G. David Felt]

AND The Other Shoe Drops, Bloomberg is reporting that under review from Morgan Stanley, Fords $11 Billion restructuring could cost 25,000 employees their jobs, exceeding GMs cutbacks.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/morgan-stanley-predicts-ford-to-cut-25-000-jobs-in-restructuring

Morgan Stanley says the largest portion will be in Europe of cutting if not closing Ford of Europe, a business that currently has a NEGATIVE $7 Billion value. Europe is bleeding Ford.

Per Ford's announced restructuring that the 70,000 salaried employees will face unspecified job losses beginning in the middle of next year as Ford works through their reorg. 

Starting in early Spring of next year Ford will cut shifts at two U.S. Factories and transfer som workers to plants building Big SUVs and Transmission for pickups.

To Quote Morgan Stanley:

Jonas said other automakers will be forced to follow GM’s and Ford’s actions as the industry transforms, first to abandon factories building slow-selling sedans and ultimately to retool to build electric and self-driving vehicles.

“We believe existential business model risk will be prioritized over near-term profits and cash return,” Jonas wrote. “We still do not believe investor expectations have fully considered the near-term earnings risk.”

[balthazar]

Its interesting, but perhaps premature, to see journalistic sources continue to zip tie electrics and autonomous vehicles together, when 1. they really don't have anything to do with each other technologically, and 2. at least EVs are real and finding a few buyers. The autonomous thing is still a pipe dream WRT building a whole different type of car from a manufacturing standpoint. True AD vehicles are going to trail EVs by decades. There's plenty of time.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:19 PM, riviera74 said:

The best way to prove ocnblu wrong is simple: replace the Volt with an Equinox-sized CUV at Equinox prices.  Then watch the sales over the next two years.

It's called the Kia Niro... 

[Drew Dowdell]

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

Its interesting, but perhaps premature, to see journalistic sources continue to zip tie electrics and autonomous vehicles together, when 1. they really don't have anything to do with each other technologically, and 2. at least EVs are real and finding a few buyers. The autonomous thing is still a pipe dream WRT building a whole different type of car from a manufacturing standpoint. True AD vehicles are going to trail EVs by decades. There's plenty of time.

Fully autonomous is still a decade away from the mainstream, but semi-autonomous or "highway only" autonomous? That'll be mainstream a lot faster than you think.  Cadillac's SuperCruise is already that fantastic. Of the around 350 miles from my place to a destination in NY, the CT6 drove most of it and I only had to pilot it myself for about 30 of those miles. 

[A Horse With No Name]

20 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Drove a customer's 2018 Equinox LT AWD 1.5t today, around the block.  I am not missing anything.

Agree on that front....

18 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Yup except my appliance at least has a stick shift.

And rocking like an out of balance washing machine on spin cycle....

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Fully autonomous is still a decade away from the mainstream, but semi-autonomous or "highway only" autonomous? That'll be mainstream a lot faster than you think.  Cadillac's SuperCruise is already that fantastic. Of the around 350 miles from my place to a destination in NY, the CT6 drove most of it and I only had to pilot it myself for about 30 of those miles. 

I've seen the vids on SuperCruise.
Like you said- a handful offer the option, but it's extremely limited; 95% of the time it'll never/cannot be used, and it doesn't change the manufacturing aspect. It's a gimmick right now.

Fully autonomous, level 5 cars may well require different/dedicated manufacturing (I actually don't think so), but that's much farther out than a mere 10 years to be 'mainstream'. It's still weird how the 2 are being so readily velcro'd together.

[ocnblu]

Hi, I am searching for a car company that is wise enough to know that product comes before shareholder value.  One that knows that with excellent product out front, shareholder value naturally follows.  Because GM hasn't cared about product as much as share value in... gosh, I don't know when.  It's been a while.  Honda?  Toyota?  Subaru?  FCA?  Where should I land?

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's called the Kia Niro... 

...and just look at it FLYING OFF THE LOTS LOL!!!

[balthazar]

The flip side is that increased stock valuation gives that company more capital to develop excellent out front product.
Where would Tesla's products be if the stock was valued all along like it should be, via the fundamentals; below that of Ford?