Death of the V8?

[Camino LS6]

This thread isn't just a dead horse, that sucker has decomposed.

Bottom line: Poorly chosen and misleading title on an article which amounts to a "maybe" at best, when you boil it all down.

We are far more likely to see the proliferation of alternative fuels and propulsion technologies than a simple downsizing of the internal combustion engine. The V8 will likely hang in to the end of the ICE as a whole. The marginal difference between the fuel economy of a V6 vs. a V8 these days makes the whole thing seem rather pointless.

A downsizing of the cars the engines are wrapped in seems far more plausible.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I'd like to see a discussion on his premise of the V8 becoming what it is today in Europe (a top-of-the-line engine) and not a discussion on his ability to choose an article title that pleases everyone.

I agree.

Bottom line: Poorly chosen and misleading title on an article which amounts to a "maybe" at best, when you boil it all down.

You wouldnt know a good title if it came up and stole your tractor. The point of a title is to grab your attention, which this does but for whatever reason take it personally. Bottom line is it was an observation and a suggestion.

This thread isn't just a dead horse, that sucker has decomposed.

Something is dead and possibly decomposing but given the current state of affairs this topic is alive and kicking again.

Something to think about.

We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead,"

"We don't know how to get 30 per cent better mileage from RWD cars," Lutz said.

It's too late to stop Camaro but anything after that is questionable

DaimlerChrysler says it doesn't plan to alter its future vehicle plans. But increases in Cafe and new standards for carbon dioxide would likely require more sophisticated engines - and the possible demise of some V8s.

You could see a smaller displacement, pressure-charged V6 as a replacement for a V8," said Frank Klegon, the Chrysler group's executive vice-president of product development.

Maybe demise is a better term?

To the original poster: Perhaps a question mark in the title would clear the mental roadblock?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/05/08/bc.aut...reut/index.html

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/70416002/1024

Its may not be fair but thats what it is. And at no point was it ever stated these motors would disappear. They might become more of a novelty. the V8 for passenger vehicles may soon be phased out because it no longer matters.

So much for the discussion. What we basically learned here is people like V8's.

oh and again from the original post.

For some it could be argued that a Hybrid powertrain might be the image powertrain of the future. That seems to be the approach Lexus is taking with their top of the line powertrain offerings

Toyota cutting hybrid costs, claims every car produced will be hybrid by 2020

Posted on Friday 11 May 2007

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/toyota/...g-hybrid-costs/

Id venture to say theres still a lot to talk about once you get past the title and read what was said, personal preference aside.

[ehaase]

The marginal difference between the fuel economy of a V6 vs. a V8 these days makes the whole thing seem rather pointless.

With 35 mpg CAFE, both V6 and V8 engines will be rare.

Most cars will have sub 2.0L 4 cylinders, many with hybrids.

I read that Ford of Europe may have to replace the 2.0 and 2.3L in the Mondeo with a 1.6L turbo because of CO2 regulations.

[ZL-1]

I read that Ford of Europe may have to replace the 2.0 and 2.3L in the Mondeo with a 1.6L turbo because of CO2 regulations.

I do think we'll see the trend of smaller turbo-/supercharged engines taking over bigger engines as gas prices rise and emission regulations get more and more stringent: Renault is introducing a 100hp turbo 1.2L I4 and VW is working on a 1.2L Twincharger engine (supercharger + turbocharger). Don't know what GM or Ford have in development, but I would see them both following the trend sooner rather than later.

But even from an enthusiast's point of view, if the Ford's 1.6L output is similar to the GM 1.6L turbo's (180 hp DIN in the Astra), then replacing those two engines wouldn't even be considered a trade-off, as it would offer more power with better fuel economy and emissions, with the added benefit of a very flat torque curve as lots of turbocharged engines offer nowadays.

[Sixty8panther]

Dead means not coming back, and gone for good. We all know the V8 is not gone and it is here. God Bless the U.S.A. and American Cars and V8s...

Amen!

I agree with Camino, the ICE will not outlive V8s by much.

[Camino LS6]

I agree.

You wouldnt know a good title if it came up and stole your tractor. The point of a title is to grab your attention, which this does but for whatever reason take it personally. Bottom line is it was an observation and a suggestion.

Something is dead and possibly decomposing but given the current state of affairs this topic is alive and kicking again.

Something to think about.

We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead,"

"We don't know how to get 30 per cent better mileage from RWD cars," Lutz said.

It's too late to stop Camaro but anything after that is questionable

DaimlerChrysler says it doesn't plan to alter its future vehicle plans. But increases in Cafe and new standards for carbon dioxide would likely require more sophisticated engines - and the possible demise of some V8s.

You could see a smaller displacement, pressure-charged V6 as a replacement for a V8," said Frank Klegon, the Chrysler group's executive vice-president of product development.

Maybe demise is a better term?

To the original poster: Perhaps a question mark in the title would clear the mental roadblock?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/05/08/bc.aut...reut/index.html

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/70416002/1024

Its may not be fair but thats what it is. And at no point was it ever stated these motors would disappear. They might become more of a novelty. the V8 for passenger vehicles may soon be phased out because it no longer matters.

So much for the discussion. What we basically learned here is people like V8's.

oh and again from the original post.

Toyota cutting hybrid costs, claims every car produced will be hybrid by 2020

Posted on Friday 11 May 2007

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/toyota/...g-hybrid-costs/

Id venture to say theres still a lot to talk about once you get past the title and read what was said, personal preference aside.

[Mr.Krinkle]

We all know the V8 is not gone and it is here.

Well of course, but if its not her it will be gone.

What a well thought out and carefully articulated statement. Its nice to know that some of the so-called moderators encourage discussion and open dialogue.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Camino LS6]

Well of course, but if its not her it will be gone.

What a well thought out and carefully articulated statement. Its nice to know that some of the so-called moderators encourage discussion and open dialogue.

Easy there, Mr. Krinkle. You have now twice taken direct potshots at me and I think you know that they aren't accurate. The rolleyes smiley was simply a shortcut to express how I felt about your previous post. I am quite capable of a detailed and well thought out response, I simply felt that it wasn't worth the effort on such an old topic. Discuss away if you wish, I haven't tried to stop you. Had I wanted to, simply locking the thread would have done the trick quite nicely.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I simply felt that it wasn't worth the effort on such an old topic.

Its too bad you feel that way. Given whats going on currently it boils down to willful ignorance in action on your part. Its not pejorative but you should read the links above if you havent already. This topic is even more relevant. Perhaps instead of avoiding it discuss a viable ethanol solution, major breakthrough in engine tech, or revolutionary weighsaving materials. These are some things that can be worked on instead of the usual nothing to see here, everythings fine. The 2 best selling pick up trucks are down significantly this year. What does that tell you?

“Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way.”

Be prepared for some big changes buddy, esp if the CAFE and emissions issues come to pass.

Had I wanted to, simply locking the thread would have done the trick quite nicely.

The stalinesqe tactics dont intimidate me.

[gm4life]

Someone could just lock this worthless old thread. Admin anywhere?

[Mr.Krinkle]

Someone could just lock this worthless old thread. Admin anywhere?

Locking the thread isnt going to make the core issue go away.

Power shifts in vehicle mpg fight

By Justin Hyde

DETROIT FREE PRESS

WASHINGTON — As war shakes the Middle East and gasoline prices surge, Congress mulls tough efficiency rules for Detroit’s automakers, which warn of catastro-phic job cuts. The year: 1990.

That’s just one example of the several attempts over the past three decades to raise fuel-economy standards that have been beaten back by the U.S. auto industry. Time and again, automakers — from Detroit and elsewhere — have united to deflect calls for tougher rules with arguments of lost jobs, less-safe vehicles and scientific doubt.

The first showdown of the new order came Tuesday, as a Senate committee approved the first fuel-economy bill under the new Democratic Congress to the Senate floor, calling for new vehicles to average 35 mpg by 2020.

“It’s been 30 years since Congress really did anything effective for consumers at the pump. And the industry has refused to respond consistently, to its own great detriment,” said Philip Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust and a Capitol Hill veteran.

“I don’t think there’s any question you’re going to have in place a serious new round of fuel economy legislation. If not under this president, it will certainly happen under the next president.”

Automakers have fought fuel rules so vigorously because they act as limits on what the companies can build and sell. To meet the standards, federal regulators often require automakers to change vehicle plans, from minor tweaks to swapping engines and transmissions, which canadd millions of dollars in costs.

Detroit executives in particular have long argued that the Corporate Average Fuel Economy system was a failure, as U.S. oil imports have grown since it was established in 1975. Dave McCurdy, the new head of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, told a Senate panel Friday that CAFE was a “one-dimensional and incomplete program.”

But one of the main arguments automakers have used against tougher fuel economy rules in the past hasn’t been available this time. In 1990, the head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration warned that higher fuel economy standards would “exchange body bags for oil barrels,” as it would force automakers to build smaller, more dangerous vehicles.

A year later, an industry lobbying group ran TV ads showing an NHTSA crash test of a large luxury car plowing into a subcompact, with the slogan “Fuel economy is important, but safety is vital.” The ads helped kill a proposed 40-mpg standard by 2001.

Since then, NHTSA has remade its rules for trucks to require more efficient models regardless of a vehicle’s size, answering many safety concerns. While smaller vehicles are in general more dangerous, several studies have found no correlation between higher fuel economy standards and more traffic deaths.

Without safety concerns, automakers have relied on other points to make their case. After the Bush administration estimated its proposed 4 percent annual increases in fuel economy might cost General Motors Corp. $40 billion, GM CEO Rick Wagoner said the estimate was low. Other automakers and Michigan lawmakers have warned that one Detroit automaker could go out of business under the toughest rules.

But those warnings about cost haven’t been well received so far, and several lawmakers have pinned the financial troubles of Detroit automakers on their lack of enthusiasm for fuel economy increases.

Proponents of higher standards have been boosted by two other trends: the growing consensus of global warming, and worries about dependence on the Middle East or unfriendly regimes such as Venezuela for energy sources. After years of victory on Capitol Hill, automakers now find themselves fighting the fuel economy battle on two fronts.

This is a dynamic situation. There may be more than one solution but as it stands now a shake up is the works.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...0420/1148/rss25

A central element as we see it is energy diversity, being able to offer consumers vehicles that can be powered by many different energy sources and advanced propulsion systems to help displace petroleum and reduce greenhouse gas emissions," Wagoner said in the statement.

[gm4life]

Obviously, and the V8 isn't dying anytime soon. So why are we discussing this? There are more V8 powered vehicles than there were 10 years ago even. Also fuel economy of all vehicles is going up due to modern technology, such as extra gears in transmissions and AFM/DOD. So I don't see why we keep beating a dead horse to death. I will only have a 4 cylinder in a vehicle that it can power well and give good performance.

[Camino LS6]

Mr K, I think that you will find (if you look) that I have been very active in all topics that discuss alternatives. In fact I make it a point to respond when such threads are posted. Diversity in fuels and propulsion systems have been the solutions which I have been promoting heavily all over the site. It's just that this old editorial thread has seen better days. My time is at a premium this time of year, so this will be my last post in this thread - see you in a newer one soon.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Oh sure, technology will save us at one point and maybe then they will bring it on back. Its a shame some of you havent been able to get past the title.

Do you realize youve condemned the v8 three times all by yourself?

I wish my Bonneville was a V8 but I couldn't find one without a moonroof and my wife didn't like the fuel economy. .

No need to order a V8! With a 300hp V6!

I never liked the STS because to get the extra balls you needed the V8. Not so anymore with 302hp the V6 is plenty for me! Sure the V6 isn't as sweet as a V8 when it comes time to listen to the roar. But I can forgive that and 18hp for 9 grand. The STS is more of a compelling choice than ever.

A downsizing of the cars the engines are wrapped in seems far more plausible

yup, just like in europe.

Mr K, I think that you will find (if you look) that I have been very active in all topics that discuss alternatives. In fact I make it a point to respond when such threads are posted. Diversity in fuels and propulsion systems have been the solutions which I have been promoting heavily all over the site. It's just that this old editorial thread has seen better days. My time is at a premium this time of year, so this will be my last post in this thread - see you in a newer one soon.

Thank you for taking time out of your so busy schedule to address the new issues that were first raised one year ago in this post.

Its been 30 years nothing has changed, but get ready the handwriting is on the wall--somethings got t give.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Intrepidation]

The Interpid is ugly sorry, I just don't like them. I can't see V8's going anywhere in the near future. Panther is right, and they didn't offer one V8. At least GM did. I hope and think you are just kidding, but to each his own I say. At least it is domestic.

It's fair enough since I think the Bonneville has an interior that looks like an ugly tree fell on it...then was remolded in plastic that would shame Fisher Price

Back to the topic...I refer the naysayers to this:

Holden V8 Sales at Record Highs

[gm4life]

Dodgeboy that is fair, but it has got plenty of torque. I do like you, but not so much your car.

[Intrepidation]

Dodgeboy that is fair, but it has got plenty of torque. I do like you, but not so much your car.

Feeling's mutual (except those older cars you've got)

[FloydHendershot]

My bad. Didn't know so many of you had a bug up your butts about this topic.

V-8's rock!

[gm4life]

Sadly I own none of the "old" rides right now...

[avro206]

this post remids me of the 80's. The death of the V8 was predicted then...V6 was the future.

Never really happened. It's not like the V8 is all over the place anyhow...more 4clys and V6 cars on the road. Most cars can't even get a V8.

In some cases a V8 gets better MPG then a V6 anyhow.

[Nick]

I love my V8, and I would never want anything less... (well, depending on the car, I might settle for an I6 of some sort...specifically from a BMW)...But as far as cars go, I can't get over the feel of a V8, and I don't plan on getting over it any time soon. Hell, I want to get an e30 325 just so I can drop a LS1 into it.

[gm4life]

Go for it Nick!

[Chris_Doane]

For all the "trouble" this thread caused....it's now looking like it's coming true.

[Camino LS6]

If so, you can thank the morons in D.C.

[Derek77]

For those who haven't read:

GM cancels new DOHC V8 engine program

[thegriffon]

Well, I didn't vote for them.

[carman21]

I never voted for this Congress either, my Congressman is a good man but, Menendez can kiss my ass. I think its best to vote this incompetent congress out. I think the Republicans learned their lesson, its not worth ruining the country over it. Hopefully, Rudy will save us.

Unless we add hybrids or get cheap fuel again. The V-8 is going to become exclusive to luxury and sports cars.

Edited January 3, 2008 by carman21

[Duncan]

Hopefully, Rudy will save us.

No comment, except to say that I now need to know nothing more about you to know where you're coming from on this, or any other topic.

[Oracle of Delphi]

For all the "trouble" this thread caused....it's now looking like it's coming true.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Sixty8panther]

The fat lady has not sung, the show is not over...

[Camino LS6]

If the V8 dies it will be murder rather than natural causes.

[Mr.Krinkle]

The fat lady has not sung, the show is not over...

Its really quite beautiful if you listen.

Click, Enjoy

Edited January 5, 2008 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

QUOTE(Chris_Doane @ Jan 3 2008, 03:49 PM)

For all the "trouble" this thread caused....it's now looking like it's coming true.

May 25 2006, 12:07 PM

I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks. The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason. Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

You can only go so fast to 60 mph or the ¼ mile. in real terms. The buff magazines might split hairs over 0 -to-60 times, but the average consumer will not.

For that very reason, the V8 for passenger vehicles may soon be phased out because it no longer matters.

Jan 3, 2008--Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, "We've really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it's so close in power to the V-8."

If so, you can thank the morons in D.C.

Or the millions of jackasses buying cars and trucks they dont need so they can go to the store for a pack of butts and a soda. or pop or watever the hell you want to call it.

Better than any words I can express I think this sums up the future of the V8.

Future Plans for the V8 as it stands today--Click

Edited January 4, 2008 by Mr.Krinkle

[gm4life]

I sure hope sixty eight is right... So we will be getting a RWD V6 powered fullsize Cadillac. That isn't right.

[gm4life]

I guess do you think they will really go through with it?

[Oracle of Delphi]

The fat lady has not sung, the show is not over...

Hmmmmm, which fat lady would that be?????

[carman21]

No comment, except to say that I now need to know nothing more about you to know where you're coming from on this, or any other topic.

You are reading way too much into things.

[Mr.Krinkle]

No comment, except to say that I now need to know nothing more about you to know where you're coming from on this, or any other topic.

Yea, you tell him Sonic!

[carman21]

The only reason the V-8 was such a big deal in its hey day is that Detroit increased the displacement to V-12 ranges and reap the success of high horsepower.

Today's DOHC V-8s are much more compact and as such do not make up for losses in fuel economy with vast amounts of sheer horsepower and torque.

Edited January 8, 2008 by carman21

[Robert Hall]

this post remids me of the 80's. The death of the V8 was predicted then...V6 was the future.

Never really happened. It's not like the V8 is all over the place anyhow...more 4clys and V6 cars on the road. Most cars can't even get a V8.

In some cases a V8 gets better MPG then a V6 anyhow.

Heck, in the 80s I remember the death of RWD was also predicted (though for Chrysler and to a lesser degree, GM, that pretty much happened for over a decade..)

[Duncan]

Yea, you tell him Sonic!

Maybe I should have left his comment alone to stand for itself.

But seriously, Rudy? The man's a cartoon, and not one that's well-drawn or even funny.

I don't want this to devolve into a political debate, though - although it seems that's what's bubbling under the surface. Let it be said that I don't favor the extreme step of 35mpg CAFE rules or any knee-jerk mandate for smaller engines, but that we do need to change our energy consumption radically in this country. Doing so will improve the economy and simplify our foreign policy - it's that simple.

It's pretty simple: for the vast majority of people, a fuel cell or plug-in hybrid will do fine in daily use. Others may need something with more torque for heavy hauling, like a diesel or diesel hybrid. And a small-but-viable number of enthusiasts will always prefer cars with more power for sporting pursuits - that means a V8.

I still aspire to own a Challenger or the next Camaro, whichever one I'm able to afford first. Hopefully, I won't be buying the last of a breed, but Detroit apparently is beginning to think otherwise. Which bothers me - because without at least a few affordable V8-powered dream machines out there, what does this country's auto industry have left to differentiate itself from Europe or Asia?

I want desperately (and have wanted desperately since getting my driver's license) to be able to own an American car without fear of giving something up in the way of quality, refinement or reliability. All of the Big Three (or the Big Two-point-Five?) have made great strides in recent years, to the point where I want to spend money on a new car built in the country where I live. I feel like I owe it to the American auto industry, for having given me so many creations to dream about over the years (many before I was born, but I digress).

Yes, we need to be environmentally responsible. At the same time, we need to revitalize American industries. I don't think it's that hard to do both.