Death of the V8?

[BatmanGTO]

How thick headed and stubborn does one have to be to understand that data drives educated decisions and opinions in this industry, paricularly buyer data.

Data has never fully driven educated decisions. Why do you think the average American reads at a 6th grade reading level. Thats how most newspapers are written. So the common public is hardly educated. I can say my parents are hardly educated. You know the reason why my mother does not like chevy's? She does not like the tail lights. The reason she has her nissan is she likes the color. She doesnt have a clue what mileage it gets or even all of the features in the car. I believe that can speak for the general public.

What is comes down to is people buy what they buy. There are dozens of reasons that people like what they like from cars to food. And trust me not alot of it ever makes sense. What is comes down to is people get what fits their needs. Some people are rich some people are poor. So some individuals need fuel efficient cars others could give two cents at getting 8 miles to the gallon "H2 for example"

So what drives the market is whatever people feel like buying. My self for example. I want a fast car with nice interior a good sound system and a stand out presence. That in my opinion could be anything from Pontiac GTO, New Camaro, A R32 VW, Twin Turbo Supra, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, or even a Mercury Marauder. Now with all of those cars I might Modify them to make them "better" one way or another. I am educated with a degree, i know plenty of opinions of the automotive industry, and i am well aware of buyer data. Has that influenced my future purchasing decisions? Maybe yes and maybe no. But to assume that those influence everyones decision is highly ludacris.

A question to everyone.... how many people have been with a friend and driving when they go "ooo" at a car that goes by, that they want because the like the "look".

Now how many of those friends know the data on those cars usually? Or do they even care? Most of the time I would say this is more true, if they can afford it, they will buy it. Not that data in the slightest influences their choice.

[BatmanGTO]

Your analysis was brilliant. Just to prove how automotively educated you are, name one current car (or truck for that matter) powered by a V4 engine.

Yes completely brilliant besides getting hung up on small details but yes i call them V4's sorry for my taboo in the car world but its just easier because unless i am mistaking you got my point of what a I call a V4.

On a side note I am a fan of VW's if you cannot tell by my screen name... and yes we all call 4 bangers V4 it is just quicker. Just like all VR 6's are not called a V6.

Edited June 3, 2006 by BatmanVW

[Mr.Krinkle]

ok so we all like analogies. ill take a marshall or vox all tube vaccum amp from any era especially with 12ax7 and 6s or even an 84 as opposed to a transistor solid state amplifier from now. nothing can compare to that sound from that configuration. end of story period.

now see why analogies are useless.

the v8's not going anywhere its been here for a long time and only getting better. hell they just squeezed 500+ horses from it in the fastest car gm ever produced.

yeah lets call it a day now, good night. ok so it might not be standard in my cam cord. ok then its useless. the v8 hasnt been on an only option on cars since who knows when? besides trucks and 4x4's we always had a choice. and still do today. and if you want an f150 you better want the triton v8 at least. at least they offer it in the impala now. wonder how many people bought that cr just because they made the v8 an option? or did the guy who wanted the base 4 say oooh a v8? hmmm dont know, maybe?

as long as its an option people will want it.

sure sounds like the basis of a business case for me.

and for everyone else who needs it, its there too. i guess it would be do-able to live without a v8 configed motor but why if you dont need to? it just cant do the same things no matter how much you tll us it can, its not the same. obviously, of course bcause its missing two cylnders. there will always be a need or as lexus says a strong want is a justifiable need or some $h!. the whole topic is a waste of time. death of the v8 what was the whole point anyway?

[ehaase]

as long as its an option people will want it.

Not when gasoline hits $5 or $6/gallon in the next few years, as many analysts predict.

This is why I hope GM and Ford are preparing to be profitable even if sales of full size pickups and SUV's drop by half to two-thirds.

[VenSeattle]

Not when gasoline hits $5 or $6/gallon in the next few years, as many analysts predict.

This is why I hope GM and Ford are preparing to be profitable even if sales of full size pickups and SUV's drop by half to two-thirds.

If GM & Ford see that much of a hit, how are Toyota and Nissan going to justify their new Titan & Tundra plants? or the Heavy duty versions? Will the Sequoia, Armada, & QX56 survive? They barely have markets. At least GM & Ford have a certain about of brand loyalty built up to sustain some market share.

I have a feeling if you propose happens, Canton will be building a lot more Altimas and San Antonio will be producing something else entirely.

[ehaase]

If GM & Ford see that much of a hit, how are Toyota and Nissan going to justify their new Titan & Tundra plants? or the Heavy duty versions? Will the Sequoia, Armada, & QX56 survive? They barely have markets. At least GM & Ford have a certain about of brand loyalty built up to sustain some market share.

Toyota and Nissan don't depend upon their trucks for profits nearly as heavily as do Ford and GM. A severe drop in truck sales would hurt Toyota and Nissan but devastate Ford and GM.

I wonder what truck sales as a percentage of the total market were from 1979 to 1982, when gas prices were very high and the economy was weak.

[Drew Dowdell]

Toyota and Nissan don't depend upon their trucks for profits nearly as heavily as do Ford and GM. A severe drop in truck sales would hurt Toyota and Nissan but devastate Ford and GM.

I wonder what truck sales as a percentage of the total market were from 1979 to 1982, when gas prices were very high and the economy was weak.

uhm, why? If "Joe Redneck" can't afford his an F-150 or Silverado anymore, you think they'll be running to the Toyota and Honda dealers?

I doubt it, they'll probably end up at Ford or Chevy.

[ehaase]

uhm, why?  If "Joe Redneck" can't afford his an F-150 or Silverado anymore, you think they'll be running to the Toyota and Honda dealers?

I think that they may buy less profitable small cars and trucks, not necessarily from Ford or Chevrolet.

[balthazar]

I wonder what truck sales as a percentage of the total market were from 1979 to 1982, when gas prices were very high and the economy was weak.

If you can find the total volumes, I'll get DM truck numbers (have to add them up).

[91z4me]

Yes completely brilliant besides getting hung up on small details but yes i call them V4's sorry for my taboo in the car world but its just easier because unless i am mistaking you got my point of what a I call a V4.

On a side note I am a fan of VW's if you cannot tell by my screen name... and yes we all call 4 bangers V4 it is just quicker.  Just like all VR 6's are not called a V6.

Hudson is saying that nobody makes V4s but everyone makes I4s, Inline. Perhaps if you had small facts together people might take you seriously.

[Camino LS6]

So, are we finally going to get to the hard numbers I requested so many pages back?

I hope so, it should shed some light on all of this opinion.

Bottom line: choice is good and the choice in V8 cars is expanding. Because of that I am happier with today's V8 offerings than I was with yesterday's. I really don't give a rat's ass about volume, just availability. Let the sheep drive the sheepmobiles as long as I can get something that fits my criteria. Excluding such a revered and storied powerplant from production would be pandering to the least common denominator in car design. If this kind of thinking were to completely take over the industry there would be no point in being an enthusiast anymore(at least where new cars are concerned). There would also be no point in sites like C&G. What a dull world it would be.

[Camino LS6]

Furthermore, let me ask this question again.

Can anyone name even ONE example of a car (still in production) that has lost its V8 option?

Can you name one over the last 10 years that remained in production after losing a V8 option?

Go ahead, research it .

I can wait.

[Robert Hall]

Furthermore, let me ask this question again.

Can anyone name even ONE example of a car (still in production) that has lost its V8 option?

Can you name one over the last 10 years that remained in production after losing a V8 option?

Go ahead, research it .

I can wait.

Hmmm..I can think of some examples of cars not still in production that lost a V8 option, but the lack of a V8 wasn't the reason for their demise.. but this is all about 20 years ago... the Buick Electra, LeSabre, Olds 88, Olds 98, Pontiac Bonneville all come to mind...in '86 and '87 (Pontiac) when they made the switch to FWD lost their V8 versions.

And the Thunderbird and Cougar lost their V8 option in '89 but gained them back a few years later.

Nothing recent I can think of as far as cars still in production, though.

Edited June 3, 2006 by moltar

[evok]

Your analysis was brilliant. Just to prove how automotively educated you are, name one current car (or truck for that matter) powered by a V4 engine.

LOL

[evok]

How about instead of saying "death", "decline", "niche" and "novelty", why not try posting some real, actual "data" so we can all get past the hand-wringing extrapolation of personal opinion. Go get the NADM retail V-8 totals for the last 10 years, make up a tidy chart & post it and try again to make this theory remotely worth debating. I promise I won't argue straight, comprehensive fact.

If you are so sure you are correct - go do the analysis. What is stopping you?

But you might have trouble finding the data you are looking for?

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/accounts/nadm96.html

Edited June 3, 2006 by evok

[evok]

If GM & Ford see that much of a hit, how are Toyota and Nissan going to justify their new Titan & Tundra plants? or the Heavy duty versions? Will the Sequoia, Armada, & QX56 survive? They barely have markets. At least GM & Ford have a certain about of brand loyalty built up to sustain some market share.

I have a feeling if you propose happens, Canton will be building a lot more Altimas and San Antonio will be producing something else entirely.

And how many F Series and GMT900/800 based vehicle plants do the respective OEMs have?

[evok]

Data has never fully driven educated decisions.  Why do you think the average American reads at a 6th grade reading level. Thats how most newspapers are written.  So the common public is hardly educated.

Excellent point. Not in the context of what I was refering to but excellent none the less.

I have been thinking a lot about that lately.

[ocnblu]

Can somebody please tell me what "excellent" means?

[pow]

OK, so... to sum this up... sales of certain powertrain combinations will fluctuate depending on the popularity of the vehicle-type they're attached to. If no one buys full-size SUVs, there will be a decline in V8s. If no one buys mainstream passenger sedans, there will be a decline in I4s.

How difficult does it have to be?

[evok]

Hmmm..I can think of some examples of cars not still in production that lost a V8 option, but the lack of a V8 wasn't the reason for their demise.. but this is all about 20 years ago...  the Buick Electra, LeSabre, Olds 88, Olds 98, Pontiac Bonneville all come to mind...in '86 and '87 (Pontiac) when they made the switch to FWD lost their V8 versions. 

And the Thunderbird and Cougar lost their V8 option in '89 but gained them back a few years later.

Nothing recent I can think of as far as cars still in production, though.

Don't forget, Malibu, Park Ave., Regal (Lacross), and the Impala, Monte, Grand Prix were in production for a while before they jury rigged the LSx motor option.

[evok]

So, are we finally going to get to the hard numbers I requested so many pages back?

I hope so, it should shed some light on all of this opinion.

The numbers are out there if you are so inclined to search. And you might be surprised to learn the volume for passenger cars is not the high.

Again, sales volume was not the thesis of this thread.

[Hudson]

Yes completely brilliant besides getting hung up on small details but yes i call them V4's sorry for my taboo in the car world but its just easier because unless i am mistaking you got my point of what a I call a V4.

On a side note I am a fan of VW's if you cannot tell by my screen name... and yes we all call 4 bangers V4 it is just quicker.  Just like all VR 6's are not called a V6.

No automotive fan with ANY automotive knowledge (even VW fans) would "call 4 bangers V4" engines for any reason unless it was actually a V4. Saab offered a V4 back in the 1960s, but since then, there have been virtually no V4s. A V4, for clarification, would have two banks of cylinders offset at an angle greater than 0 degrees and less than 180. Most four-cylinder engines sold today are I4 or L4 (both mean the same thing) engines. And A VR6 is still a V6, just with a very narrow angle and a single cylinder head. "L4" or "I4" is just as easy (and actually much more correct) than "V4."

Sorry for the topic detour.

[VenSeattle]

And how many F Series and GMT900/800 based vehicle plants do the respective OEMs have?

My comment was to point out the focus by Nissan & Toyota in pushing into this market full force while its future is uncertain, at best.

Yes, GM & Ford have several plants that produce trucks/SUVs but that came from organic growth over the years as the market increased.

Toyota & Nissan don't currently have the market share in trucks/SUVs to justify plants dedicated to the output of several 100,000. It's all built on hope. Toyota & Nissan may have money to burn, but their investing in the Truck/SUV market appears to be far riskier, less researched, and simply blind when compared to GM's and Ford's. Timing is everything, and they're both far guiltier of bad timing than GM & Ford.

[balthazar]

Good point, Ven. Also note that GM's truck plants must have amortized their costs a lo-oong time ago.

[evok]

My comment was to point out the focus by Nissan & Toyota in pushing into this market full force while its future is uncertain, at best.

Yes, GM & Ford have several plants that produce trucks/SUVs but that came from organic growth over the years as the market increased.

Toyota & Nissan don't currently have the market share in trucks/SUVs to justify plants dedicated to the output of several 100,000. It's all built on hope. Toyota & Nissan may have money to burn, but their investing in the Truck/SUV market appears to be far riskier, less researched, and simply blind when compared to GM's and Ford's. Timing is everything, and they're both far guiltier of bad timing than GM & Ford.

Nissan has already made the investment with their Canton plant. The Canton plant is not a stand alone truck plant but produces 5 models including the 3 BOF trucks. Nissan is not heavily leveraged by full sized BOF trucks as GM, F and DCX. They currently sell about 80k pickups and another 40k utilities. For Nissan, the BOF trucks offers the brand growth with little risk. Utility production is a small portion of the plants production and Nissan should have enough flexibility in the plant to adjust their product mix with the Altima and Quest.

Toyota is Toyota. They are toolin up for 300k trucks. Because they are Toyota they are sitting on a ton of cash and could easily afford the bad that goes along with the gamble. This is an investment Toyota can afford to loose. And the merits of Toyota tooling up and selling 300k pick-up is another discussion all together.

Both Nissan and Toyota are not leveraged to the point the Traditional 3 are in the BOF full size pick-up and utility business. IMO rising fuel costs will have little effect on the pickup business particularly. For the work truck, there actually might be an incentive to purchase a new truck that does get better fuel economy. The government can increase the IRS write off/mile, thereby reducing the cost of fuel for business.

The biggest question mark is that the weekend Red Neck, might defer his purchase of a pickup because of the cost of fuel but the business pick-up truck market should not fall.

Full sized utilities is another story because there market is less driven by business sales. We shall see what happens. Toyota will have replacements for the Seqouia and LX, but those are replacement vehicles that are not the make or break vehicles for the company that the 900s are to GM. Nissan has also held their own with the full sized utilites. Again Nissan had limited expectations for the vehicles especially when compared to GM and Ford.

In conclusion, Nissan is a limited player in this market and the Canton plant should be protected because of its flexibility.

Toyota on the other hand is venturing into a new territory and there are no good answers as to what will happen.

Both Toyota and Nissan have researched the market well. The difference is Nissan had conservative expectations and Toyota is being very bold.

One thing I am very certain of, I do not expect fuel prices to put a significant damper on the sales of full size pick up for the reasons I stated above.

Two questions no one has answers to:

Will the market grow because of the added capacity of Toyota or will the current players loose in a stable market volume?

[Hudson]

evok:

The market is not expected to grow substantially with the addition of more Nissan and Toyota full-sized pickups.

[evok]

evok:

The market is not expected to grow substantially with the addition of more Nissan and Toyota full-sized pickups.

I agree - Nissan should remain flat. Toyota - there are too many factors that I have no valid, defensible opinion as to what they could do to the traditional players. Or if Toyota will become a serious player in the market at all above their current volume in the near future. Production capacity to me does not equal to market acceptance. But, Toyota is a very rich company that can do things to entice buyers. So with that I am on the fence as to what may happen in the full size pick up maket. And it just as possible that the market could grow as the minivan and other market segments with more serious players. Too many factors that can not be answered. Don't have a good hunch either way.

Edited June 5, 2006 by evok

[Hudson]

I agree - Nissan should remain flat.  Toyota - there are too many factors that I have no valid, defensible opinion as to what they could do to the traditional players. Or if Toyota will become a serious player in the market at all above their current volume in the near future.  Production capacity to me does not equal to market acceptance.  But, Toyota is a very rich company that can do things to entice buyers.  So with that I am on the fence as to what may happen in the full size pick up maket. And it just as possible that the market could grow as the minivan and other market segments with more serious players.  Too many factors that can not be answered.  Don't have a good hunch either way.

I may have miscommunicated my point.

Nissan and Toyota will grow in volume and market share. But the addition of these two brands will not substantially increase the market for full-sized pickups. It is expected that Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, and GMC (most likely the last two more than the first two) will lose market share. Nissan will grow with the introduction of their "3/4-ton" version and the 2nd generation of their "1/2-ton" version. Toyota will double (or more) their market share when San Antonio comes on line.

[balthazar]

Tho in the field of percentages, doubling your marketshare is relatively easy when you're in the low single digits, the above still seems like a lofty prediction. I really don't see nissan/toyota bringing anything new to the table... meanwhile both are still far from matching the leaders as far as choices and features are concerned.

[evok]

I may have miscommunicated my point.

Nissan and Toyota will grow in volume and market share. But the addition of these two brands will not substantially increase the market for full-sized pickups. It is expected that Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, and GMC (most likely the last two more than the first two) will lose market share. Nissan will grow with the introduction of their "3/4-ton" version and the 2nd generation of their "1/2-ton" version. Toyota will double (or more) their market share when San Antonio comes on line.

No I did understand what you were saying. I am sceptical about any major increase in Toyota's market penetration of the full size market. Just because Toyota can build them do to the increased capacity, does not lead me to believe there is a market for them. Even with all the configurations and strength of the product I remain on the fence.

As I said earlier. I am not going to make any predictions on what will happen with Tundra. To me there just are to many variables out there and the odds are better in Vegas.

[Sixty8panther]

If you are so sure you are correct - go do the analysis.  What is stopping you?

Dude, it's YOUR article, it's YOUR premise, the burden

of proof/substantiation is on you. You give US facts

that back up your claim, not the other way around.

[evok]

Dude, it's YOUR article, it's YOUR premise, the burden

of proof/substantiation is on you. You give US facts

that back up your claim, not the other way around.

68 Go back and read my initial post. The numbers are not relevant to the discussion as I originally framed it. I have the data, and it continues to not be relevant to this discussion and that is why I have not posted it. I can not be more clear than that. So therefore what is the future of the powertrain?

[Drew Dowdell]

I think that they may buy less profitable small cars and trucks, not necessarily from Ford or Chevrolet.

If Joe Redneck can't afford a Silverado, he'll buy a Colorado. All that will happen is demand will shift from the big trucks to the small trucks. Profit on the large trucks would go down and profit on the small trucks would go up <as demand increases>.

This is exactly what happened with Nissan Maxima and Nissan Altima. Maxima sales are down from where they once were, but Altima sales are way up.

[evok]

If Joe Redneck can't afford a Silverado, he'll buy a Colorado. All that will happen is demand will shift from the big trucks to the small trucks. Profit on the large trucks would go down and profit on the small trucks would go up <as demand increases>.

Maybe that is what logic would dictate but that is not what is happening in the field.

Full size PU for the most part is flat or slightly down overall.

Midsized/compact PUs from the domestics is down by a large percentage.34%

Midsized/compact PUs from the transplants is up by a large percentage. 22%

The weekend Redneck is buying transplant compact pus.

[evok]

Passenger Cars

----- --- 3------ - 4------ - 5------ - 6------ --- 8------(% cylinde)

’04----- 0------ 50.1----- ---0------ 42.4----- 7.5

’03----- 0------ 49.1----- ---0------ 42.8----- 8.1

’02----- 0------ 49.0----- ---0------ 43.0----- 8.1

’01----- 0------ 48.8----- ---0------ 42.3----- 8.9

’00----- 0.1--- 46.6----- ---0------ 44.0----- 9.3

’99----- 0.1--- 47.7----- ---0------ 42.8----- 9.4

’98----- 0.2--- 52.0----- ---0------ 38.7----- 9.1

’97----- 0.3--- 52.6----- ---0------ 36.6----- 10.5

’96----- 0.4--- 49.3----- ---0------ 38.6----- 11.7

’95----- 0.4--- 44.9----- ---0------ 41.4----- 13.3

Edited June 14, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

thats a little hard for me to read, but if im reading it correctly the % of v8's is way down almost steadily every year but v6's seem to have held steady. maybe traded off for a little with the 4's., thats if im looking at it correctly, which would then suggest to me that its really more of a battle between 4 or 6 cyl cars.

in other words its not really that theres more v6's just more 4's.

which would make sense as the switch to fwd kindve killed off most v8 engines anyway. so perhaps, the rise of the 4 cylinder engine in the passenger car. feel free to correct, like i have to even say that.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

so perhaps, the rise of the 4 cylinder engine in the passenger car. feel free to correct, like i have to even say that.

I tried to make the data more visual friendly. If nothing else the data should spark discussion.

[97regalGS]

Passenger Cars

----- --- 3------ - 4------ - 5------ - 6------ --- 8------(% cylinde)

’04-----  0------  50.1-----  ---0------  42.4-----  7.5

’03-----  0------  49.1-----  ---0------  42.8-----  8.1

’02-----  0------  49.0-----  ---0------  43.0-----  8.1

’01-----  0------  48.8-----  ---0------  42.3-----  8.9

’00-----  0.1---  46.6-----  ---0------  44.0-----  9.3

’99-----  0.1---  47.7-----  ---0------  42.8-----  9.4

’98-----  0.2---  52.0-----  ---0------  38.7-----  9.1

’97-----  0.3---  52.6-----  ---0------  36.6-----  10.5

’96-----  0.4---  49.3-----  ---0------  38.6-----  11.7

’95-----  0.4---  44.9-----  ---0------  41.4-----  13.3

WOW!! I see a huge opportunity for GM to build a 5cyl car. They would OWN that segment of the market.

Where is the Bel-Air Concept when GM really needs it.

[Satty]

Were the 5cyl Volvos of the 90's and 3cyl Insight of today not enough to count for one-tenth of one-percent of their respective categories?

[z28luvr01]

Is this MY04 or CY04. If it's MY04, I'd like to see what MY05 looks like, with the Hemi LX cars and the new Mustang GT.

[redfox]

No matter what you think the v8 will always be around it's the best engine of then all.

[mightymouse]

Passenger Cars

----- --- 3------ - 4------ - 5------ - 6------ --- 8------(% cylinde)

’04-----  0------  50.1-----  ---0------  42.4-----  7.5

’03-----  0------  49.1-----  ---0------  42.8-----  8.1

’02-----  0------  49.0-----  ---0------  43.0-----  8.1

’01-----  0------  48.8-----  ---0------  42.3-----  8.9

’00-----  0.1---  46.6-----  ---0------  44.0-----  9.3

’99-----  0.1---  47.7-----  ---0------  42.8-----  9.4

’98-----  0.2---  52.0-----  ---0------  38.7-----  9.1

’97-----  0.3---  52.6-----  ---0------  36.6-----  10.5

’96-----  0.4---  49.3-----  ---0------  38.6-----  11.7

’95-----  0.4---  44.9-----  ---0------  41.4-----  13.3

Ok... we get your point.

What do you want ....a parade?

Cool cars have V8s or more....... Next! NEXT!

[evok]

Ok... we get your point.

What do you want ....a parade?

Cool cars have V8s or more.......    Next!        NEXT!

Brilliant post! Very insightful.

Edited June 15, 2006 by evok

[redfox]

Ok... we get your point.

What do you want ....a parade?

Cool cars have V8s or more.......    Next!        NEXT!

Way to go tell it like it is.

[mightymouse]

Brilliant post! Very insightful.

Sorry I don't share your dreary outlook....Of course, there is a positive

side to every thought you have. For example, your data proves many

enthusiasts are likely rebuilding older V-8 cars instead of buying new

crap with puny engines. In July's Issue of Automobile mag, NONE of the

featured cars had any less than 8 cyls....because they aren't as fun or

as interesting as cars having 8 or more. As fewer V8s are sold, the need for,

and natural attraction to, feeling that V8 power will likely increase over time,

therefore inverting the trend.

That's it!...........No parade for you. Maybe if your wife would let you have a

V8, maybe then you would be fine and not so sarcastic and crabby.

It's too bad you can't detect tone or emphasis in these threads cause I

am not trying to be mean or hurtful. Don't be too sthensitive or you'll

be always sthad and hate'in

Edited June 15, 2006 by mightymouse

[evok]

Sorry I don't share your dreary outlook....Of course, there is a positive

side to every thought you have. For example, your data proves many

enthusiasts are likely rebuilding older V-8 cars instead of buying new

crap with puny engines. In July's Issue of Automobile mag, NONE of the

featured cars had any less than 8 cyls....because they aren't as fun or

as interesting as cars having 8 or more. As fewer V8s are sold, the need for,

and natural attraction to, feeling that V8 power will likely increase over time,

therefore inverting the trend.

That's it!...........No parade for you. Maybe if your wife would let you have a

V8, maybe then you would be fine and not so sarcastic and crabby.

It's too bad you can't detect tone or emphasis in these threads cause I

am not trying to be mean or hurtful. Don't be too sthensitive or you'll

be always sthad and hate'in

Again, Brilliant post! Very insightful. You have said nothing yet again.

[balthazar]

Passenger Cars

----- --- 3------ - 4------ - 5------ - 6------ --- 8------(% cylinde)

’04-----  0------  50.1-----  ---0------  42.4-----  7.5

’03-----  0------  49.1-----  ---0------  42.8-----  8.1

’02-----  0------  49.0-----  ---0------  43.0-----  8.1

’01-----  0------  48.8-----  ---0------  42.3-----  8.9

’00-----  0.1---  46.6-----  ---0------  44.0-----  9.3

’99-----  0.1---  47.7-----  ---0------  42.8-----  9.4

’98-----  0.2---  52.0-----  ---0------  38.7-----  9.1

’97-----  0.3---  52.6-----  ---0------  36.6-----  10.5

’96-----  0.4---  49.3-----  ---0------  38.6-----  11.7

’95-----  0.4---  44.9-----  ---0------  41.4-----  13.3

Ahhh; now I see.

Why were trucks omitted from this chart? Are they 'niche'? What are the numbers for passenger trucks and what would the reason be for segregating them? I can see the arguement back when the vast majority were used by farmers, contractors and 4x4 nuts, but that hasn't been the status quo for many many years.

25 years ago (1980), trucks were only 29% of domestic output. In the last few years that number has reached 54% of the entire USDM.

In 1980, exactly 50% of Ford's F-100, F-250 and F-350 came with an I-6. Think even for a second that anything close to that installation rate is achieved with the 2005 lineup? Can you even get a 6-cyl in an F-250 in 2005?? Now factor in the greatly increased volume (581K vs. 900-someK).

This is where the vast majority of the V-8 buyers have gone. I guess that wasn't as obvious as it should've been...

[97regalGS]

Ahhh; now I see.

Why were trucks omitted from this chart? Are they 'niche'? What are the numbers for passenger trucks and what would the reason be for segregating them? I can see the arguement back when the vast majority were used by farmers, contractors and 4x4 nuts, but that hasn't been the status quo for many many years.

25 years ago (1980), trucks were only 29% of domestic output. In the last few years that number has reached 54% of the entire USDM.

In 1980, exactly 50% of Ford's F-100, F-250 and F-350 came with an I-6. Think even for a second that anything close to that installation rate is achieved with the 2005 lineup? Can you even get a 6-cyl in an F-250 in 2005?? Now factor in the greatly increased volume (581K vs. 900-someK).

This is where the vast majority of the V-8 buyers have gone. I guess that wasn't as obvious as it should've been...

go back and re-read the original post. trucks were omitted cause they were not part of the original discussion. unfortunately, most of you haven't grapsed the thrust of evok's discussion but instead have migrated towards the title of the article and latched on to the word 'Death'.

I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks. The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason. Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

Beyond specialty applications and limited edition vehicles, I am finding less and less of purpose for the V8 even in the more or less main stream luxury market.

[Sixty8panther]

At one point I had a fleet of FOUR vehicles, each with a V8.

(STS, Camaro, F.Brougham & Suburban)

My 240Z powered Maxima is the only NON V8 in my

fleet right now, if I ever get rid of that car I just

might never own a NON-V8 car again. Or then again

I just might follow through with my plans of stuffing

an LS1 or LS6 into the Datsun.

FU$% four bangers, screw V6s and to hell with hybrids.

The only way someone is going to get me out of an

I6/V8 powered car will be a flat-four turbo or a rotary.

[97regalGS]

At one point I had a fleet of FOUR vehicles, each with a V8.

(STS, Camaro, F.Brougham & Suburban)

My 240Z powered Maxima is the only NON V8 in my

fleet right now, if I ever get rid of that car I just

might never own a NON-V8 car again. Or then again

I just might follow through with my plans of stuffing

an LS1 or LS6 into the Datsun.

FU$% four bangers, screw V6s and to hell with hybrids.

The only way someone is going to get me out of an

I6/V8 powered car will be a flat-four turbo or a rotary.

Thank You. Those were some very constructive comments on this topic, providing some unique insights and valued perspective. Edited June 15, 2006 by 97regalGS