Death of the V8?

[balthazar]

Interesting, if pie-in-the-sky-esque.

In both the new car market & the aftermarket, the V-8 is seeing more proliferation than in any other time period. The demand is huge and still growing.

Long range... if the V-6 moves far enough upward to all but replace the V-8, then I also see it moving downward and rendering the 4 irrelevant. However, when homogenization reaches those sad, unfortunate levels, I will only be driving something within a generation of WWII.

But I also like L79's excellent (first) post: in a perfect FuturWorld, the prevailant passenger vehicle engine would be the DOD V-8.

[Newbiewar]

i think not...

i think V8's will always have its place in law enforcement... & sports cars...

Europe has gone to more efficent smaller motors for years...

and now GM is going with more efficent bigger motors...

the low end torque will never be replaceable...

[Paolino]

Heh, you may be surprised. I've had ricers brag to me about their "high performance" V6's... that is until I tell them that I drive a V8. They either shut up, or berate me for driving American... 

Uh, I don't think he's talking about the quantity of pistons, but more the "bore and stroke" of a piston if you will.

[Sixty8panther]

Uh, I don't think he's talking about the quantity of pistons, but more the "bore and stroke" of a piston if you will.

MOst Ricers don;t know much abotu cars... they think

bore & stroke are some kind of tactic to get someone

between the sheets. :wink:

Balthazar:

As I said in one of my long winded posts, DOD V8s would be in

90% of modern cars if logic and car enthusiams ruled.

[ZL-1]

the low end torque will never be replaceable...

Have you ever driven turbodiesel engines? Some put out really great torque numbers, and more interestingly, they don't have a 'torque peak', but a 'torque plateau', a range of say 1000 RPM with maximum torque available. So there may be alternatives for the mass market (the one that has tended to look for the appliance-like auto), which I believe was evok's main point.

EDIT - I have to say the idea of DOD V8s is appealing: you get power when you need it, and fuel economy when you need it. But won't very advanced turbo-/supercharging do the same? Look at VW: they got 170bhp out of a 1.4L gasoline engine by combining superchargind and turbocharging.

Edited May 26, 2006 by ZL-1

[ShadowDog]

Dude, that's an apples to apples comparison like

I could compare the LS7 to that LQ1 and make

it seem like a pathetic four cylinder from 2006.

Oh, I completely understand your point. I was merely hoping to gather your opinion on this particular area since you'd said "I'd take almost any basic, dinosaur of a V8 over most super-modern, powerfull efficient 4/6 cylinders."

But I think the main reason for the higher appreciation that exists for the V8 is due to its popularity in performance cars over the decades. Through the fuel crunch days, the V8 was about as useful as a four-banger, but needlessly inefficient. If D.O.D. can accomplish more to satisfy the masses, then we may very well see its popularity grow again. The unfortunate thing is that D.O.D. isn't quite effective in your daily traffic grind, but open roadway cruising. All things considered, it becomes just as effective as the V8s of old, being selected purely because it can be, not that it needs to be.

[Drew Dowdell]

Heh, you may be surprised. I've had ricers brag to me about their "high performance" V6's... that is until I tell them that I drive a V8. They either shut up, or berate me for driving American... 

That was a 747 that flew over your head....

[Petra]

If I may ask, evok, I'm working which specific V8 engines you are referring to here. Because when I think of V8 engines that are available in passenger cars, pretty much all of them are already niche or low volume models. The Chrysler LX cars are perhaps the biggest sellers of all V8-powered cars in the last few years, but even they have nothing on the big dogs in the passenger car market: Accord, Camry, Altima, etc., etc.

The way I see it, the V8 really and truly died in the family sedan market about 20-25 years ago. Consumers were looking for something cheaper to own, maintain, and fill up. Enter the Japanese with cars like the early Accords, Civics and Camrys. They started the push towards FWD cars with economical 4 cylinder engines (remember: the V6 engines didn't start coming until around the early '90's). The Big 3 jumped on the FWD bandwagon, and, well, history has never been the same. You might even say that V8s were as good as doomed back in the early '70's, when fuel and insurance concerns and a lack of available technology emasculated them. A 400 ci. engine that only makes 150 horses is pretty woefully inefficient. It was only a matter of time before a smarter solution arrived.

I, for one, relish the chance to drive my big, V8 powered car. I just love the power... It comes on strong from a standing start, a tidal wave of torque. You could ride that wave all the way up to 100 MPH, put the car in cruise control, and just sit back and watch the scenery go by for hours on end (if it wasn't illegal). It's a great feeling, and a rare one, too. I realize that there will probably never be another time when cars like my Mercury cover the automotive landscape. It's the last of the big V8s that managed to escape extinction. And to me, that just makes my car all the more special.

[Newbiewar]

Have you ever driven turbodiesel engines? Some put out really great torque numbers, and more interestingly, they don't have a 'torque peak', but a 'torque plateau', a range of say 1000 RPM with maximum torque available. So there may be alternatives for the mass market (the one that has tended to look for the appliance-like auto), which I believe was evok's main point.

EDIT - I have to say the idea of DOD V8s is appealing: you get power when you need it, and fuel economy when you need it. But won't very advanced turbo-/supercharging do the same? Look at VW: they got 170bhp out of a 1.4L gasoline engine by combining superchargind and turbocharging.

ohh dont get me wrong, i love diesel cars...

but i also love v8 cars too

[tmp]

evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes.

Funny, I distincly remember special ordering my iBook 5 years ago with the optional 20 gig hard drive and having people tell me that I'd never fill it up. Now my iTunes library resides on an external 200 gig HD. And I haven't started ripping DVD's yet.

The way I see it, the V8 really and truly died in the family sedan market about 20-25 years ago. Consumers were looking for something cheaper to own, maintain, and fill up.

Exactly what I was going to write. I don't think thee V-8 will ever completely disappear; some people will always want one. Even if the difference in gas mileage between the V-8 and the 6 on the highway is not that great, I can tell you from experience that the difference in insurance is.

[finlandia]

Another thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that some drivers prefer engines that they can wind out. The low rev-focused, fire-and-forget engine/drivetrain setup of many American cars strikes them as unengaging and limp. I love the zingyness of Mazda's rotary and Honda's I4 (in S2000 form, mind). I love the sound, frankly. The kick of a well-executed turbo or the whine of a supercharger on a high-rev engine (like the Cooper S) is glorious. I'm 29, and I know a lot of guys my age who feel the same way. We grew up in the 80's and we have no natural affinity for Detroit Big Iron.

To guys like us, the V-8 is a weapon without a purpose. It's overkill for commuting and offers no meaningful advantage over a high-efficiency 6 or even a well-tuned, turbo 4 (Saab or VW) on the freeway or in the twisties. Aside from the drag strip, really short onramps, or really, really heavy cars, when would you need that kind of low-rpm torque? Save it for race cars and trucks.

And you can never have too much hard drive space, believe me. Set up a media server sometime and you'll see what I mean.

[BatmanGTO]

12 is always something to brag about.

8 is usually something to brag about.

Who ever brags about a 6 or a 4?

:AH-HA_wink: 

well.... a six with a twin turbo set-up.... thats always nice.

[BatmanGTO]

well if everyones commentary does not sum it up i do not know what does.

about 60-70 percent of the market want their 4 banger

20-30 wants their six

20-10 wants their 8 10 or 12

so the market will always be their, untill they design a new engine that we have to switch to for fuel purposes.... but even then i will be like Will Smith in I, Robot still wearing converse and hiding a gasoline powered vehicle in my garage.

[Cory Wolfe]

As I said in one of my long winded posts, DOD V8s would be in

90% of modern cars if logic and car enthusiams ruled.

Not really... not every enthusiast is like you. I'll give you 50% at the very most... although something like 30% or even 40% seems more realistic.

Another thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that some drivers prefer engines that they can wind out. The low rev-focused, fire-and-forget engine/drivetrain setup of many American cars strikes them as unengaging and limp. I love the zingyness of Mazda's rotary and Honda's I4 (in S2000 form, mind). I love the sound, frankly. The kick of a well-executed turbo or the whine of a supercharger on a high-rev engine (like the Cooper S) is glorious. I'm 29, and I know a lot of guys my age who feel the same way. We grew up in the 80's and we have no natural affinity for Detroit Big Iron.

To guys like us, the V-8 is a weapon without a purpose. It's overkill for commuting and offers no meaningful advantage over a high-efficiency 6 or even a well-tuned, turbo 4 (Saab or VW) on the freeway or in the twisties. Aside from the drag strip, really short onramps, or really, really heavy cars, when would you need that kind of low-rpm torque? Save it for race cars and trucks.

Exactly.

[Sixty8panther]

Through the fuel crunch days, the V8 was about as useful as a four-banger, but needlessly inefficient.  If D.O.D. can accomplish more to satisfy the masses, then we may very well see its popularity grow again.

Yes.... true a 5.0 liter V8 from 1979 is about as exciting

as a MODERN 2.0 liter Four cylinder... but conversely a

1979 Four cylinder is about as useless as a $hit flavored

popsicle. I mean if you go drive a 4100 powered 1983

Bustleback Seville you'll say "woah that's sloooww" but

then again a 1983 Four banger Cavalier is nothing to get

excited about and it lacks the smoothness & torque of

even the worst V8, yes even the 4.3 smallblock!

The typical four banger from that era is about as

craptastic as a Geo Metro hatchback with 90% water in

the gas tank.

Hate the era not the V8... it's a product of fu$%sticks

like Nader, the EPA & Greenpeace.

If D.O.D. can accomplish more to satisfy the masses, then we may very well see its popularity grow again.

Yes and yes.

BV: I'd be happy with 40%.... and yes I think it's realistic

in a few years... if only the country was not full of soft in

the brain, wussy, communist meatheads that think they're

somehow doing the planet a favor by driving a sucky car.

Hey Mr. Prius driver... I like how you're justyfing saving

120 gallons of fuel this year but your car has 1200% more

lead battery content than my V8 powered Q45. I'm sure

the Spotted Owl and Amazon Tree Frog thanks you!

Edited May 26, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[ehaase]

I wonder which cars will lose their V8's.

I think that the Ford Panthers will be gone after 2010. Only a small percentage of the Lincoln MKS will probably use the Volvo V8. I'm not certain of the latest status of the rumored larger D3 Lincoln.

GM's 300 hp DI 3.6L DOHC V6 could easily be used in premium versions of the Zeta Chevrolet and Buick sedans. There are rumors that the Camaro will offer a high output V6 instead of a low end V8.

You could see more Chrysler LX's with the rumored 275 hp 4.0L SOHC V6 and fewer with the Hemi.

Higher gas prices will eventually cause pickup truck sales to fall dramatically, except for people who need them for business.

[daves87rs]

Gee, I'm surprised people didn't bring up gas prices more.....

that alone could alone could kill the V8-regardless of what it is in.

BUT-just a few reasons why it will still kick around...

Some of the most dependable engines ever were....quess what? -V8!

E85-this could actually save the V8-not to mention trucks....

This had me thinking, as at first-I planned to get a Cobalt or mazda 3.....

But if E85 does to nationwide....

A nice 07-09ish Silverado with 5.3 with DODw/ E85 cap would be just fine...

You just can't beat the get-up-and-go of a V8.....

I have to agree with Petra too....just soemthing quite good about that.

[daves87rs]

I wonder which cars will lose their V8's.

I think that the Ford Panthers will be gone after 2010.  Only a small percentage of the Lincoln MKS will probably use the Volvo V8.  I'm not certain of the latest status of the rumored larger D3 Lincoln.

GM's 300 hp DI 3.6L DOHC V6 could easily be used in premium versions of the Zeta Chevrolet and Buick sedans.  There are rumors that the Camaro will offer a high output V6 instead of a low end V8.

You could see more Chrysler LX's with the rumored 275 hp 4.0L SOHC V6 and fewer with the Hemi.

Higher gas prices will eventually cause pickup truck sales to fall dramatically, except for people who need them for business.

Panthers gone? Maybe-but if the old school trend contiunes...maybe not.

Again, E85 could be the savior of truckers everywhere...

[TurboRush]

Another thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that some drivers prefer engines that they can wind out. The low rev-focused, fire-and-forget engine/drivetrain setup of many American cars strikes them as unengaging and limp. I love the zingyness of Mazda's rotary and Honda's I4 (in S2000 form, mind). I love the sound, frankly. The kick of a well-executed turbo or the whine of a supercharger on a high-rev engine (like the Cooper S) is glorious. I'm 29, and I know a lot of guys my age who feel the same way. We grew up in the 80's and we have no natural affinity for Detroit Big Iron.

To guys like us, the V-8 is a weapon without a purpose. It's overkill for commuting and offers no meaningful advantage over a high-efficiency 6 or even a well-tuned, turbo 4 (Saab or VW) on the freeway or in the twisties. Aside from the drag strip, really short onramps, or really, really heavy cars, when would you need that kind of low-rpm torque? Save it for race cars and trucks.

And you can never have too much hard drive space, believe me. Set up a media server sometime and you'll see what I mean.

Well, this sums it up quite nicely.... and personaly, juging by the way things work in the world, technology advances and people evolve. Sure people like their big rumble and their big V-8 but when it comes to your kids, and then theirs, there won't be enough V-8 glory for anyone to care to bend over backwards for. If a person can get the same power out of a smaller, less complex and more efficient powerplant, then that would seem to be the logical direction to throw yourself in. By having 2, or even 4 extra cylinders your adding that extra amount in weight and raw materials. If you want to add D.O.D. then you add complexity to that weight... not practical....

Success seems to lean more towards quality, not quantity.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, this sums it up quite nicely.... and personaly, juging by the way things work in the world, technology advances and people evolve. Sure people like their big rumble and their big V-8 but when it comes to your kids, and then theirs, there won't be enough V-8 glory for anyone to care to bend over backwards for. If a person can get the same power  out of a smaller, less complex and more efficient powerplant, then that would seem to be the logical direction to throw yourself in.  By having 2, or even 4 extra cylinders your adding that extra amount in weight and raw materials. If you want to add D.O.D. then you add complexity to that weight... not practical....

Success seems to lean more towards quality, not quantity.

Actually, to get more power out of the smaller engine, it would have to be more complex. The 3.6L DI VVT DOHC V6 engine is supposed to make around 300hp, which doesn't even match GMs relatively low tech 5.3L V8 with 320hp.

[ZL-1]

ohh dont get me wrong, i love diesel cars...

but i also love v8 cars too

Well, I love both of them too, although I've never driven a V8 car. Saw a blue Corvette, just like the one on your sig (except for the Euro-lights), a few months back. It's a car

[Camino LS6]

Another thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that some drivers prefer engines that they can wind out. The low rev-focused, fire-and-forget engine/drivetrain setup of many American cars strikes them as unengaging and limp. I love the zingyness of Mazda's rotary and Honda's I4 (in S2000 form, mind). I love the sound, frankly. The kick of a well-executed turbo or the whine of a supercharger on a high-rev engine (like the Cooper S) is glorious. I'm 29, and I know a lot of guys my age who feel the same way. We grew up in the 80's and we have no natural affinity for Detroit Big Iron.

To guys like us, the V-8 is a weapon without a purpose. It's overkill for commuting and offers no meaningful advantage over a high-efficiency 6 or even a well-tuned, turbo 4 (Saab or VW) on the freeway or in the twisties. Aside from the drag strip, really short onramps, or really, really heavy cars, when would you need that kind of low-rpm torque? Save it for race cars and trucks.

And you can never have too much hard drive space, believe me. Set up a media server sometime and you'll see what I mean.

And some of us can't stand the sewing machine buzz of high-winders. I'll take low-end torque any day, you can have the buzzmobiles.

[BuddyP]

While it is true that the HP of the 6's and 4's is getting up there, there is still once feature that these high revving smaller motors can't provide... and that is torque.

"GM had already cancelled the V10 because they could do the same thing with the LSx V8 in the full sized utilities and pickups. The V10 might have made headlines in the press and media but that would be about it. How much longer until a V6 can do exactly what a V8 does as technology progresses further."

I'll garuntee that V10 put out more torque than the V8 even with the same HP, a V6 will be worse than the V8. The current 5.3 in the GMT 800's, while up on HP over the 5.7 of the mid '90's, doesn't have the low end torque that the 5.7 had. The 5.7 actually pulls better than the new 5.3's. While GM can boast more HP than the Nissan Titan, the Titan has 40 lbs more torque.

This is the same with the new Honda Civic. Sure it boasts 197hp... however, you need to be pushing 6000 RPM's before that power starts to kick in while revving up to 8000 RPM. Basically, it's worthless down at typical opperating RPM.

V8's may stick around while longer, but I agree in that I highly doubt GM will put anymore big R&D $$$ into designing a all new type of V8 motor. The LSX's will stick around until they are no longer sellers and at that point I think the V8 will be done with except for in trucks.

[Cortazzo]

I've posted this before here and elsewhere in the GM community, but I think the v8 could be the savior of the domestic sedan market. Before I state anything else, look at the Charger, Magnum, and 300C, the HEMI is a gigantic sales tool, and people are ponying up lots of dough for the top level trim packages to get it.

A few points:

*v8s are popular with guys, if a car has a v8, even if it's more family vehicle oriented, it will at least have some appeal and be a good compromise vehicle with the wife

*large production v8s are pretty much an American exclusive. They are strongly associated with the 'golden age' of cars in the 60s and early 70s, and those feelings of nastolgia are particularly strong with baby boomers as shown in the super high values of old muscle cars

*the japanese won't follow suite, as they'll stick with their bread and butter large v6s for most situations.

*GM happens to build one of the best v8 engine familes around, not to mention its as powerful, more efficient, smaller, and lighter than competing v8s (and lighter and smaller than some v6s!)

Beyond that, a v8 is not a necessity, and it hasn't been in 15 years even in larger cars. But it is something that is very desirable, and people are willing to pay more for the grunt off the line and the bragging rights. Now, how can these sentiments play out for GM? Well, GM only happens to have the greatest mass production v8 family in the industry. What they need to do is shrink displacement to between 3.5-5L, add the 3 valve heads for greater power/efficiency, and make them the available on all sorts of passenger cars and trucks as a replacement for large v6s. A pushrod v8 is compact and lightweight, probably moreso than many of these hipo v6s that are sported by nissan and toyota. HP doesn't need to be much greater than these larger v6s, but tune them for great efficiency with DoD and the 3v heads.

[Camino LS6]

GM V8s have been continually evolving throughout their entire history, and mostly for the better. Since the early EFI engines of the late 80's - early 90's the pace of improvement has been rapidly increasing in all aspects of engine quality and performance. The engines keep getting lighter, more fuel efficient and more powerful, while meeting or exceeding ever tougher emission standards. Truly amazing ,actually.

In 2002 not only was the LS1 (in the F-bodies) making serious power and rated at an amazing 28mpg highway, but it also was a 50-state low-emission vehicle according to the EPA. The LSx engines have just gotten better since then, so I'd say GM's V8s have a bright future.

[TurboRush]

Actually, to get more power out of the smaller engine, it would have to be more complex. The 3.6L DI VVT DOHC V6 engine is supposed to make around 300hp, which doesn't even match GMs relatively low tech 5.3L V8 with 320hp.

True.... I was simply making the association to more parts to worry about as well as complexity with D.O.D. considering its overall gain in eficiency vs. a turbocharged or supercharged powerplant of smaller size.

And some of us can't stand the sewing machine buzz of high-winders. I'll take low-end torque any day, you can have the buzzmobiles.

Allot of factory turbocharged cars have torque at the low end and dont even need to be brought up above 3-4 grand to get what you need, therefore no buzz. It'll give the 4 banger (or 6) a flat torque curve at relatively low rpm..... someone mentioned that earlier about turbodiesel engines.

Thers allot of great engine designs and combinations out there, weither it be a supercharger, turbo, vvti, dod, v-tec or any others, the ones that are most eficient and incorporate a simple proven technology should be mostly considered for advancement! I also have a concern with the longevity and long term maintenance costs of DOD.

Edited May 26, 2006 by TurboRush

[Sixty8panther]

And some of us can't stand the sewing machine buzz of high-winders. I'll take low-end torque any day, you can have the buzzmobiles.

Amen. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Angry Dad]

!  I also have a concern with the longevity and long term maintenance costs of DOD.

Considering that DOD disarms part of an engine, longevity increases. on the otherhand to get the power from a smaller far more complex engine it is run faster and harder.

All DOD or AFM is consists of an electronicaly controlled manifold that bleeds oil pressure from a set of lifters and arms a different set of variables for an already existing throtle body.

You do know that Honda incorporates electronicly controlled engine mounts on their V6 DOD engines. They simply cannot get the harmonics right. V8s are by far the simplest and most effcient method of creating a variable displacement engine.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm going to guess that an LS6 is substantially less complex than an HF3.6 VVT.

[balthazar]

Which uses more raw materials, energy & investment to produce nearly the same results: a V-8 vs. a V-6 or a lexus vs. a toyota?

[Sixty8panther]

Only the morons running Honda would try to do DOD with a

V6, that's like trying to juggle 7 knives w/ one hand.

[rkmdogs]

Real packaging is related to external dimensions.

And yes but maybe not that drastic.

Boy, are you blowing smoke!

Real engine packaging STARTS with bore center distance! The rest is based on

other parameters, and strength of materials.

You can't make an engine out of tissue paper, yet!

You have all missed one of the main reasons for a V-8! Smoothness of

operation due to even firing pulses. Yes, you can do that with a 60 degree V-6,

but then you introduce other spacing constraints.

They haven't repealed any of the laws of physics yet, no matter how much

you "whiz kids" would like to!

[rkmdogs]

AND..............

if you want to add more fuel to this fire, go read my thread about GM's new

diesel developments down under, and what they plan for U.S. models.

Then consider this news item, that was just published in Edmunds!

Honda to launch diesel Odyssey & Acura MDX in US

There have been several rumors about new diesels coming from Honda recently, one being a V6 diesel for their larger vehicles. Now we get word that the Odyssey and MDX will get this engine by 2009. Not mentioned in this link, but has been rumored elsewhere on the Net is that the Ridgeline could also get this engine. I see these as very smart moves on Honda's part.

Snippet: ‘‘We think Honda’s light trucks, such as the Odyssey and the MDX, will be more fuel efficient with diesels,’’ Mr Fukui said adding, “We don’t have any plans to put hybrid systems in light trucks, such as the Odyssey and MDX in the US.’’ Mr Fukui said the four-cylinder engine can be installed in vehicles by 2009. Bloomberg

Diesel engines will use less fuel than hybrid systems for light trucks driven longer distances, Fukui said. Honda is developing a V6 diesel engine, mainly for the US market. If diesel engines in light trucks prove popular, the company may also use them in cars.

This is also interesting...

Snippet: Nissan Motor Co, Japan’s second-largest carmaker, is also considering diesel vehicles for the US market. The carmaker may put diesel engines in U.S. pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles, chief executive officer Carlos Ghosn said in November.

[pow]

Only the morons running Honda would try to do DOD with a

V6, that's like trying to juggle 7 knives w/ one hand.

Clearly, you've missed the memo...

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...?showtopic=8869

[evok]

Boy, are you blowing smoke!

Real engine packaging STARTS with bore center distance! The rest is based on

other parameters, and strength of materials.

You can't make an engine out of tissue paper, yet!

HUH

[ocnblu]

Technology is moving forward for all engine configurations, not only 4s and 6s, so I don't understand this "technology will render the V8 obsolete" argument. The current and future LS V8 engine is a world leader in smoothness, longevity, power and efficiency. It is the ideal engine, and I look forward to it becoming available widely as an option in the Zeta cars when they hit the market.

Naysayers have been wrong before. This kind of Chicken Little prediction gets recycled on a predictable basis.

[The O.C.]

While it is true that the HP of the 6's and 4's is getting up there, there is still once feature that these high revving smaller motors can't provide... and that is torque.

This is the same with the new Honda Civic. Sure it boasts 197hp... however, you need to be pushing 6000 RPM's before that power starts to kick in while revving up to 8000 RPM. Basically, it's worthless down at typical opperating RPM.

That's so NOT true.

Have you driven the new Civic Si....? Is THAT where you are basing your opinion on? One could HARDLY call it "worthless" at those RPMs....go drive one first.

Let me tell you the new Honda 197hp engine is superbly flexible and doesn't feel at all shortchanged on the low end.....it just was way more go when you actually wind it out...

Today's modern L4 and V6 engines with multi-cam and multi-valves (and VVT) are VERY flexible in their powerbands and have a free-revving nature that makes them feel punchy and enthusiastic even at low revs. While this may not be the same thing as actual "torque", it certainly gives them a refined, tractable, and responsive feel.

ANYONE on here that spends a significant amount of time in various kinds of cars with various engine technologies will confirm this.

Even the S2000 L4 and the Toyota VVT 1.8L have comparable tractablility and low-end performance to most "normal" L4 engines....it's just that the high-end rush is THAT much stronger.....and tends to, in comparison, make their low-end performance seem lacking.

Re....the S2000s I've driven had VERY comparable low-rev, low-speed performance to like say a (much less powerful) Miata (or Solstice.) It's only that when you pass 6,000rpms, the car has a LOT more power and shove at that part of the rev range then what you would find in the Miata.

A stoplight drag with me driving an X5 4.4i (more high-end power) versus a new Silverado SS (stronger low-end torque) showed us neck-and-neck, even from a dead stop (where the SS SHOULD have had a "torquier" advantage) all the way up to about 80mph.

I LOVE torque too....and love the feel of my C6 when I punch it at low revs, even in third gear....but to discount most other, higher-revving engines and powertrains because of a PERCEIVED lack of low-end torque is not doing them justice.....and not really an overall accurate perception of the competence of these types of engines in "everyday" driving.

[smithrobs]

Naysayers have been wrong before.  This kind of Chicken Little prediction gets recycled on a predictable basis.

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what I was going to say. We've been here before, and we'll be here again.

[ShadowDog]

HUH

I get the feeling he was thinking that the discussion on all around 'packaging' was limited to engine design, and not the passengar car as a whole.

...at least, when I brought it up, I was talking about the latter.

[greg_nate]

I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks.  The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason.  Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

Here's another take on this one. Before you laugh, think about it.

I agree that the V8 is seeing its last years. The recent horsepower wars have given it the great opportunity to go out with much deserved style and class. It reminds me of a prize fighter coming out of retirement to win one last championship, and walking away proud not to be the victor, but proud to have been able to fight.

So the question is this: What will take its place. As was mentioned 4s and 6s are technoligically speaking, coming up with good performance numbers. And those numbers will undoubedly continue to climb.

Supercharged and turbocharged 4's rival today's V8s in horsepower - what's missing though is their low end grunt. That low end grunt is what is needed for a large passenger car or truck. V6's will be able to fill that need better than the SC/TC 4s, but they simply don't have the displacement needed to pull off a seemless transition from V8s to V6s.

Enter the longshot: The modern diesel engine. There are many modern diesels that are stepping up to the ring with a long list of great numbers. No more smelly diesel fumes. No more rattling and chattering. No more horrendous emissions that one can actually see in the air. Everything that the Americans hate about diesels are nonexistent with the new breeds. And what's more, they have horsepower now. The modern diesels can wind up just as good as their production gasoline counterparts.

So going back to the truck/large passenger car dilemma of not having enough low end torque, modern diesels have an answer to that. There are several manufactures of 6 cylinder diesels pushing 400 ft/lbs of torque, and near 300 horsepower. Think about that for a second: that's entering Corvette territory.

And these numbers aren't even turbocharged numbers - they are N/A numbers.

And what about fuel efficiency? Diesels own the arena.

And then there's this biodiesel thing happening over here in the states. Biodiesel production is slated to double this year and double again the following year. Biodiesel futures look more than bright - they look glowing. Honda, GM and DCX have been talking big about diesels as of late. Toyota being the only one not talking, but lets not forget that they have a formidible arsenal of diesel powerplants.

What do you think?

[redfox]

I love the troque of my 1969 camaro with a 502ci. 560hp. engine there's no feeling like it.

[espo19047]

A V8 is a smother running engine. It creates more torque and gets to its peak power at lower RPMs. This cannot be done with a 4 or 6 cylinder.

[evok]

Here's another take on this one.  Before you laugh, think about it.

I agree that the V8 is seeing its last years.  The recent horsepower wars have given it the great opportunity to go out with much deserved style and class.  It reminds me of a prize fighter coming out of retirement to win one last championship, and walking away proud not to be the victor, but proud to have been able to fight.

So the question is this:  What will take its place.  As was mentioned 4s and 6s are technoligically speaking, coming up with good performance numbers.  And those numbers will undoubedly continue to climb.

Supercharged and turbocharged 4's rival today's V8s in horsepower - what's missing though is their low end grunt.  That low end grunt is what is needed for a large passenger car or truck.  V6's will be able to fill that need better than the SC/TC 4s, but they simply don't have the displacement needed to pull off a seemless transition from V8s to V6s.

Enter the longshot:  The modern diesel engine.  There are many modern diesels that are stepping up to the ring with a long list of great numbers.  No more smelly diesel fumes.  No more rattling and chattering.  No more horrendous emissions that one can actually see in the air.  Everything that the Americans hate about diesels are nonexistent with the new breeds.  And what's more, they have horsepower now.  The modern diesels can wind up just as good as their production gasoline counterparts.

So going back to the truck/large passenger car dilemma of not having enough low end torque, modern diesels have an answer to that.  There are several manufactures of 6 cylinder diesels pushing 400 ft/lbs of torque, and near 300 horsepower.  Think about that for a second:  that's entering Corvette territory.

And these numbers aren't even turbocharged numbers - they are N/A numbers.

And what about fuel efficiency?  Diesels own the arena.

And then there's this biodiesel thing happening over here in the states.  Biodiesel production is slated to double this year and double again the following year.  Biodiesel futures look more than bright - they look glowing.  Honda, GM and DCX have been talking big about diesels as of late.  Toyota being the only one not talking, but lets not forget that they have a formidible arsenal of diesel powerplants.

What do you think?

agreed

[ZL-1]

So going back to the truck/large passenger car dilemma of not having enough low end torque, modern diesels have an answer to that.  There are several manufactures of 6 cylinder diesels pushing 400 ft/lbs of torque, and near 300 horsepower.  Think about that for a second:  that's entering Corvette territory.

Just to complement your post re diesels, here are the numbers for the BMW 535d: 272 horsepower @ 4000 RPM and 560Nm of torque @ 2000RPM. Since those are DIN numbers, here are the Euro-spec numbers for the base Corvette: 400hp and 546Nm of torque.

BTW, the 535d has a 3 liter diesel engine, half the size of the Corvette's engine.

[Sixty8panther]

I love the troque of my 1969 camaro with a 502ci. 560hp. engine there's no feeling like it.

But that's a 1968... do you also own a 1969?

Empowah:

I don't pay attention to V6, FWD Impala news... rather

watch paint dry. And I still say DOD in a V6 is lame. :wink:

[evok]

The truth is V8s particularly in passenger car applications has been on the decline since before the mid 1980s. At GM when GM switched over to fwd in the 1985 time frame only Cadillac was spared the shift to V6's. Now let us fast forward 20 years and continue with Cadillac.

Cadillac produces a lot less Northstar vehicles today then they did a a few short years ago.

Deville/DTS sales with the standard NS are half of what they used to be. With the SRX and STS, the NS is not a significant portion of their sales. Over the next few years even Cadillac will sell a majority of their passenger cars that are not derived from trucks with V6s.

Over time when the NG DTS gets rethough out, most likely that as well will get the 3.6 as the base engine.

Even Lincoln will follow the same forumla as they were once very heavy with V8s.

The V8 engine is becoming a niche offering.

I know it was already discussed on the boards, but what about a midlevel V6 in the Camaro to compete with the V8 in the Mustang?

Even as gas prices increase, sales will continue to decline for V8s. V8s are not equated with good fuel economy in the publics mind though the EPA tags say otherwise. The public is already shifting out of the midsized SUVs for that very reason.

Also, V6 in the real world do get significantly better fuel economy than the same model with the V8 no matter what the EPA numbers state. Remember the OEMs design for a test.

V8 engines as I stated in my opening post will be available in limited vehicles but the trend for the last 30 years has been a market shift away from V8.

[Cortazzo]

The V8 engine is becoming a niche offering.

I know it was already discussed on the boards, but what about a midlevel V6 in the Camaro to compete with the V8 in the Mustang?

Even as gas prices increase, sales will continue to decline for V8s.  V8s are not equated with good fuel economy in the publics mind though the EPA tags say otherwise.  The public is already shifting out of the midsized SUVs for that very reason.

Also, V6 in the real world do get significantly better fuel economy than the same model with the V8 no matter what the EPA numbers state.  Remember the OEMs design for a test.

V8 engines as I stated in my opening post will be available in limited vehicles but the trend for the last 30 years has been a market shift away from V8.

You do make legit points, v8s aren't needed to move around even larger cars like they were in the 60s/70s. What I would counter with is, the affordable v8 engine is the american tradition. The N* isn't exactly a budget powerplant, and is a very expensive stepup for the SRX and STS. Same with all Luxo v8 engines, you have to really pay a lot of the privilage. Some have made the claim that as detroit stopped building large rwd/v8 cars, many consumers switched to trucks that were RWD/v8 equipped. I think a great marketing/pr move would be (specifically for GM) to downsize the next generation of LS engines, utilize 3v heads and all the applicable engine technology like DoD and VVT to make a small displacement variation that would be suitable as a powerful and efficient step-up motor in RWD or FWD passenger cars instead of a larger displacement v6 (like the 3.9). The inherent smoothness of the v8 is unquestioned, and consumers desire to drive a vehicle with a v8 engine is very strong. Save for the last year when 4 bangers gained the most share, v8s have been gaining for years on the backs of pickups, SUVs, and even new passenger cars like the LX cars from chrysler. If you can make a v8 that gets at least comperable power to a top shelf v6 (300hp in todays market), but keep displacements relatively low (in the 3-4L range) and use available technology to keep economy high, and focus on economy, you could have a strong differentiation tool for domestic producers. People are gaga over Hemi, I don't see why a serious infusion of hitech LS engines wouldn't produce the same effect.

They may not be a necessity in today's market, but if developed with passenger cars in mind instead of trucks, you could have a domestic resurgence of the cylinder layout.

[balthazar]

But on the other hand you have V-8s popping up in places they hadn't before. Look at all the V-8s in toyotas & nissans where there weren't ANY decades back. mercedes & BMW undoubtedly sell more V-8s now than they did circa '85 too, merely due to increased volume.

The demand will always be there, just as the demand for 4-cyls will always be there. As V-6s 'come up in the world' they may well take on a major portion of sales, but really, the point of all this is quite irrelevant. "Death" is without debate a misnomer.

BTW- let's give credit where credit is due: it was Buick that championed the V-6 in the domestic industry... not the first but far & away the most prolific and well ahead of the industry curve (1962).

[evok]

But on the other hand you have V-8s popping up in places they hadn't before. Look at all the V-8s in toyotas & nissans where there weren't ANY decades back. mercedes & BMW undoubtedly sell more V-8s now than they did circa '85 too, merely due to increased volume.

The demand will always be there, just as the demand for 4-cyls will always be there. As V-6s 'come up in the world' they may well take on a major portion of sales, but really, the point of all this is quite irrelevant. "Death" is without debate a misnomer.

V8 Volume is small and insignificant for the brands you mentioned. In the US Cadillac probably sells more V8s than Lexus, MB,BMW and Infiniti combined in non truck based product.

[redfox]

No the car in my sig. belonged to bruce larson . He raced it in 1968-69 in the funny car class it was a beautiful car. I have a 1969 as i said before Sixty8panther.