Death of the V8?

[97regalGS]

OK, let's get some facts and figures here and leave the debate behind for a while.

I'm interested to know the following:

In 2003, how many V8s were produced for the US market? ( all V8s car and truck)

In 2003, how many cars offered a V8 as a standard or optional powerplant?

Then, I would like to know the answers to the same questions for the year 2005.

Can anyone provide accurate figures industry - wide? ( US market only)

Figures for other years would also be interesting.

I am most interested in the availability numbers, as that increases the number of candidates that I can consider for  purchase since I don't intend to buy anything not powered by a V8.

i think that actual production facts are required here, I wonder if any are available because clearly, there is a communication problem here.

let me ask this question. if every vehicle that GM offered came with an optional V8 in 2007, but production of V8 engines by GM declined 20% from 2006 to 2007 would you say that V8's are growing in popularity or shrinking?

i think what evok is saying, is that due to increased power and efficiencies of V6 engines, (and factor in rising fuel costs) the number of V8 engines sold in 'passenger cars' will decline over time as most consumers are not enthusiasts (like most on this board) and will achieve satisfactory results in their vehicle with a V6 engine. ie. there is no need to go to a V8.

if V8 engines are growing in popularity then I would assume by the arguments posted here that the Imapla SS outsells the 3.5 and 3.9 because Americans love V8's. somehow, I don't think that is the case.

[Sixty8panther]

ZL-1:

I truly beleive if Cadillac produced the SIXTEEN concept

true to form they could charge even a half a million for

it and have every one of them sold before they're even

made. It's a car that would make Bentley & Rolls Royce

look like the over hyped Cadillac wannabes they really

are.

The V16 powerplant is a no brainer for Caddy. V10s suck

and V12s are just plain pedestrian these days... seems

like every basketball player or rap star has a V12

powered Ferrari, Bentley, BMW, MB or Lamborghini. The

V16 from the 1930s was the very definition of Capitalism

and excess... it was said by W.O. Bentley himself to

transcend the definition of a "automobile".

A production SIXTEEN would not only make Cadillac the

standard of the world but it would make GM look vibrant,

healthy, energetic and on a roll... perception is everything.

A business professor once told me the that when you're

business is in trouble and you need a miracle often times

the best thing you can do to salvage it is to take risks,

spend money and appear more suiccessful than your

competitor. Fu*k the shareholders and wall street, it's the

consumers who count and they will all be blownb away by

a car as marvelous as the SIXTEEN.

If I could only have one car for the rest of my life it would

be that concept. Not the Veyron or McLaren but the

SIXTEEN. That car in production guize would be the epitome

of mega-rich. It would be as close as you could get to a

21st centry Deusenberg this side of WWII.

[91z4me]

Perhaps the writing is on the walls, and maybe GM knows it recall the dropping of the V8 option on the Lambdas and a possible 300 hp V6 mid model vs a 300 hp V8.

My question is will the V8s status remain the same but the game change? My question pertains to GM's XV8 concept from a few years ago. A 4.3L OHV dual cam in block VVT engine that was said to have better packaging AND fuel economy than V6s at the time.

Will V8s become smaller in displacement but higher efficiency in order to remain relevent options?

http://www.acarplace.com/brands/gm/xv8-engine.html for refrence the XV8 concept.

[Sixty8panther]

Here's a COLD, HARD fact that you can;t ignore:

It takes displacement (and therefore gas) to make power.

ONe of the reasons why I thikk it's stupid to put $40,000

into a FWD/4-banger Civic or Celica is that in the end you

have a $h!ty four cylinder engine that makes a lot of

power but eats up just as much gas as an equvelant V8.

Neon SRT4s may only have 2.0 liter Four cylinders but they

get abotu 10-14mpg on average. That sucks. It's right about

what I get wiht my carburated, 5.7 liter 1968 Camaro.

Now where's the savings? If this argument is to be relevant

then explain how exactly V6s and V8s of the same

displacement vary in terms of MPG? Why not just downsize

a nice smooth V8 instead of having a big V6? I'd love to see

the Chrylser 300C have standard V8 power. Give it a 3.0 and

4.0 baby V8s and drop the V6 all togeatehr. That's a more

realistic possibility than this "V8s are dead premisse".

[evok]

LETS NOT FORGET THAT PONTIAC SUPERCHARGED V6 WEIGHS MORE THAN THE ALUMINUM BLOCK OF THE GXP'S V8!!!!    THEY ARE GETTING LIGHTER.

Yes, let us compare a cast iron block V6 that is scheduled to go out of production in a couple model years with an LS motor.

[evok]

You are forgetting that for many, many, many buyers, a V8 is more than just raw numbers. It is about a sound and a feel that is unique. In short, the V8 is going nowhere.

Quantify many. Because when I ran the numbers, there really are not as many many many buyers as you may think and vehicle manufacturers are not planning on many many more buyers to take on the expense of a V8 in paseensger cars.

Trucks are in flux because of the overall market and concerns about fuel, so right now it is tough to grasp where the market is heading.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I've stayed out of this, because even while I prefer a V8 over a 4 or 6, I believe evok is right. Most customers dont care about the number of cylinders, as long as it delivers the power and efficiency they want. The V8 won't completely die, they will still be in trucks, and sports cars, and high performance versions of cars like the 300C and Impala SS. But for the normal passenger cars, the V6 will rule the day. Since I'm not a normal passenger car kind of guy, it doesn't really bother me too much.

[Camino LS6]

This thread has become pointless and circular without the information to answer the questions I posed in my previous posts. To go farther with this we need facts and figures to examine.

However, this is how I see the V8s near future:

The raw number of v8s produced in the near term will fluctuate mostly with the sales numbers of light trucks.

The V8 option will become more widely available in new, RWD, car models.

The volume of V8 powered cars is likely to increase slightly at the introduction of so many new RWD cars then level off and perhaps decline to a stable ,if small, percentage of the fleet. In other words, I believe that a shift in the number of RWD vs. FWD cars in a given production year will also affect the number of V8s produced that year.

Do I think that the V8 will again become the default choice in powerplants? Of course not, but I expect it to gain in the short-term and maintain in the long.

[Sixty8panther]

Time will tell....

[evok]

This thread has become pointless and circular without the information to answer the questions I posed in my previous posts. To go farther with this we need facts and figures to examine.

This thread has become pointless because certain people never stepped back and thought about the argument for discussion puposes I framed in the first place. People were more concerned about using a V8 to define their manhood than putting up real arguments for discussion.

This has nothing to do with V8 sales. V8 sales have been decreasing for years now and will only continue. More models with a V8 option may appear. That is irrelevant to the discussion.

This discussion as I originally framed it is about, the future of the V8 in relation to ever increasing leaps the V6 is making in power, performance and refinement.

The horsepower war has to end sooner than later. Think about it and where does that leave the V8 particularly in passenger cars. I already have my view, which I have not posted, because this thread has become about defining your manhood by an inanimate object and not thought.

[Flybrian]

My object is hardly inanimate.

[Drew Dowdell]

This thread has become pointless because certain people never stepped back and thought about the argument for discussion puposes I framed in the first place.  People were more concerned about using a V8 to define their manhood than putting up real arguments for discussion. 

This has nothing to do with V8 sales.  V8 sales have been decreasing for years now and will only continue.  More models with a V8 option may appear.  That is irrelevant to the discussion.

This discussion as I originally framed it is about, the future of the V8 in relation to ever increasing leaps the V6 is making in power, performance and refinement.

The horsepower war has to end sooner than later.  Think about it and where does that leave the V8 particularly in passenger cars.  I already have my view, which I have not posted, because this thread has become about defining your manhood by an inanimate object and not thought.

Is the horsepower war over, or is it just spreading into V6 land?

just a few years ago every manufacturer was in the 180-240hp range with their V6es and had been there for a while. During that time the LS engines came out, the Ford OHC V8s came out, Infinity, Lexus and Dodge <with trucks> started throwing their hats in the ring with high powered V8s all the while the V6es lagged behind.

Now V8s are easily pushing 350,400, 500hp out. The V8s have peaked. The V6es are playing catch up.

A 300hp V6 is not any more fuel efficient than a 300hp V8.

Infinity G35 coupe 6-speed manual = 19/26 City/Highway

Impala SS 4-speed automatic = 18/28 city/highway

GTO 400hp6-speed manual = 17/25

Heck even the lard bucket 300c manages 17/25 with 345hp, room for 5, and a huge trunk.

[redfox]

For about the same gas mileage i'll take a v8 over a v6 any day the v8 is a lot better engine.

[Camino LS6]

This thread has become pointless because certain people never stepped back and thought about the argument for discussion puposes I framed in the first place.  People were more concerned about using a V8 to define their manhood than putting up real arguments for discussion. 

Not true. Valid points have been made supporting several points of view. The discussion has been active and, in some cases, informative. We just lack the raw data to carry it beyond where it is.

This has nothing to do with V8 sales.  V8 sales have been decreasing for years now and will only continue.  More models with a V8 option may appear.  That is irrelevant to the discussion.

Sure it does. You predict the possible phasing out, and irrelevance of, the V8. Thusly, V8 sales are more than pertinent.

This discussion as I originally framed it is about, the future of the V8 in relation to ever increasing leaps the V6 is making in power, performance and refinement.

While disregarding the very same advances in V8 tech? You seem to treat the V6 as being intrinsically superior in some fashion and that at a certain Horsepower level it will be an automatic replacement for the V8.

The horsepower war has to end sooner than later.  Think about it and where does that leave the V8 particularly in passenger cars.  I already have my view, which I have not posted, because this thread has become about defining your manhood by an inanimate object and not thought.

The horsepower war will end when the insurance lobby gets all in a huff about it. This isn't 1973, we don't have 8mpg big blocks dumping boatloads of pollutants into the air any more. Modern V8s are clean, efficient, and powerful as well as reliable and proven. They just get better and better each year. I suspect that the v6s will be hitting their limit very soon, so I don't see them eliminating the V8 anytime soon.

Forgive me Evok, but you don't seem to understand the emotional factor when it comes to cars. This has nothing to do with anyone's manhood, it has everything to do with the pleasure derived from driving V8 powered cars. Even if you assume some real superiority in a V6 (which I do not), it will never be the engine of choice for many.

[ehaase]

I'd like to see V6 turbodiesels become the most common engine in light and medium duty pickups and SUV's. I'd like to see GM and Ford prepare themselves to be profitable with sales of full size SUV's and pickups falling by half to two-thirds, which is what I think will happen.

V8 powered cars are such a small part of the market that I don't think much will happen to upset most people here. 95 percent of Lucerne and DTS buyers would be just as happy with a 300 hp direct injection 3.6L V6 as they are with a Northstar. V8's will always be available in Mustang, Camaros, and Corvettes,although they will be expensive. Most people here won't cry if the Ford Panthers go away, and few will care if the Impala SS also gets the DI V6.

[76ChevyTrucker]

All right... let me see if I can put my semi-rational thoughts into this one. The V8, as an engine is a reliable, strong (both in the horsepower and torque departments), smooth running engine. The V6, in 60* form is a reliable, smooth running engine, and as everyone else has said, if you get a 300 horsepower V6, you lose all mileage increases you'd "normally" see by not opting for the V8 in your vehicle (if it has one as the option). Being that I'm someone who prefers a truck over a car in most of my driving situations (although yes, I do own a FWD, V6 powered car right now), I will always lean towards a V8 in any vehicle, no matter what they are. I like the idea of downsizing a V8 into the 3-4 liter range, and also have larger-displacement engines for the high-performance versions of cars and trucks. I'm also a fan of diesel engines. They're very torque-y engines and are also typically excellent when it comes to mileage. Do I think the V8 will die, no, I don't, there's too much of a "warm, fuzzy feeling" about it to have the V8 just up and die. Do I think that the V6 is currently playing catch-up with the V8s? Yes, I do, hands down. Do I also think that the V6 will hit a wall where they become exponentially more UNreliable with more horsepower, YES, I do. ON the same hand. Do I think that V8s will continue to gain in the horsepower and torque department? Yes, hands down. Do I think that they will also hit a wall where they become exponentially more UNreliable too? Yes, I do, every engine, no matter how many cylinders and how much technology you have in the engine, it WILL break, sometimes it just takes a helluva lot more to break them.

[enzl]

I think we're seeing more of a 'dead cat bounce' than anything with the V8 engine...I believe that the total product mix in the US (since the world has already embraced the 2,3,4,5,6cyl. car) will continue to tilt towards the 4/6 cylinder end of things...

Hybrids, twin turbos, turbodiesels, direct injection and super/turbocharged engines are the future in most applications.....

[Robert Hall]

I'll probably always have a V8 or two in my garage, either a muscle/pony car or luxury car, but for daily use, I'm content with a 6, preferably a straight 6 (which limits my choices).

[Sixty8panther]

Using Evok's logic the V8 would have become

obsolete in 1974 and went out of production

by 1976... except for perhaps in Ferraris &

other such exotics.

[rkmdogs]

The horsepower war has to end sooner than later.  Think about it and where does that leave the V8 particularly in passenger cars.  I already have my view, which I have not posted, .............

This opinion sounds like the individual who said 100 years ago we should close the

patent office because there is nothing more to be invented!

The sky is not falling, Henny-Penny.

[evok]

This opinion sounds like the individual who said 100 years ago we should close the

patent office because there is nothing more to be invented!

The sky is not falling, Henny-Penny.

In the context of what I am quoted, your post makes no sense.

Edited June 1, 2006 by evok

[rkmdogs]

PM me with the link to that thread please.  I am interested.  FWIW, I think Honda is on the right track with the new diesels, particularly in their trucks and SUVs.  It just makes so much more sense than hybrid versions.  I've read about Honda's new diesels too, and they tout very good numbers.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthr...=Diesel+engines

[rkmdogs]

In the context of what I am quoted, your post makes no sense.

Your gloom and doom mouthings presume that development on V-8 engines has stopped, and all future development will be on engines with fewer cylinders.

WRONG!!!!!

[91z4me]

Your gloom and doom mouthings presume that development on V-8 engines has stopped, and all future development will be on engines with fewer cylinders.

WRONG!!!!!

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. Look at the SUV market that market is declining but all companies are still spending development dollars making new ones and making improvements on the current ones. But they are spending less than they would if it were an emerging market. The same thing will happen with V8s. Less $ being spent on improvements and development but they aren't going to disappear overnight. Those dollars that aren't being spent on V8s are being spent on V6s.

I mean really guys do you think the general of old would be spending Mucho $$$ getting its 3.6 DOHC engine into as many cars as it is planning? Or did you think that the OHV V6s and OHV V8s would cover that?

[evok]

Your gloom and doom mouthings presume that development on V-8 engines has stopped, and all future development will be on engines with fewer cylinders.

WRONG!!!!!

Rethink what you write, your statements that you attribute to me are just foolish.

[evok]

Using Evok's logic the V8 would have become

obsolete in 1974 and went out of production

by 1976... except for perhaps in Ferraris &

other such exotics.

Give me a break - I said no such thing.

Again this thread has become useless, for the reasons I expressed earlier. Instead of thinking about what I wrote, you muddle the board with posts that lack any insight.

[Sixty8panther]

Give me a break - I said no such thing.

Again this thread has become useless, for the reasons I expressed earlier.  Instead of thinking about what I wrote, you muddle the board with posts that lack any insight.

We've discussed it for a while and now we're all blue

in the face of redundant bickering. The truth is the

majority of the board does not share your apocalyptic

phrophecy of the "DEATH of the V8" Even the "Decline

of the V8" would have been too extreme for my taste

but it would be a little less tabloid-ish. These arguments

you are makig do not make sense to me and a few

other peope on this site who are smarter and better

educated on this kind of thing than I am.

Like I said even your title reminds me of something in

the Enquirer back in the mid 1990s.

"BATBOY LOOSES VIRGINITY IN NEVADA BROTHEL"

The V8 may or may not decline in sales numbers or

be downsized to extremes in the future... perhaps

in a few decades even a 1.0 liter V8 will make 400

horsepower... Ferrari had 1.0 liter V12s back in the

day so why not? IN any case "DEATH" is just over

the top and sets people on edge even before they

read you whimsical tale of how V6s are taking over.

[ponchoman49]

I agree with everything except the first part. The Impala SS gets 18/28 while the less powerful (by 60HP) 3.9L gets 19/27... basically equal.

Well 1/3 of DTS are to fleets, and cutting the volume by 1/3 doesn't give you too much volume.

Don't be fooled. My buddy works for a big company and drives a 2006 Impala 3LT with the 3900 and averages 24-25 mpg. He got his hands on an SS Impala with it's V8 and did the exact same type of driving with close to the same break in miles and averaged 18-20 mpg. To get that 28 rating you would probably have to drive at 55 mph on the nose on a perfecty straight highway with a tail wind in DOD mode. The V6 is still going to be more effiecient in everyday driving.

[Hudson]

Please forgive my late entry into this conversation. I have not read all of the 178 posts that preceded me, but I still wanted to add my thoughts.

Evok makes sense. There is only so fast or quick a vehicle can go. Honda's attitude that they don't need a V8 may be premature since luxury vehicles and big trucks still require a V8 in the marketplace, but even that desire might not be long for this world. A six-cylinder or four-cylinder engine fills the power need for almost all cars (and many trucks) on the market today.

To Evok's point, how much quicker is the 303hp Impala SS compared to the 3.9L Impala in real world driving? Just as important today, how different are their fuel economies in the real world. Comparing EPA estimates doesn't really show the actual differences in these two engines.

Most cars today do not need anything more than front-wheel drive. Sure, we all want our sports cars and luxury cars to be rear- or all-wheel drive, but when you get down to it, the average vehicle is fully capable of being transportation (and even FUN transportation) with just front-wheel drive. And a front-wheel drive platform cannot adequately handle more than 300hp...which can be delivered by four- or six-cylinder engines today.

I don't see the V8 going away anytime soon because too many stubborn buyers won't even try a six. There's also the big profit that manufacturers make on many V8 engines. Did you know that the Chrysler 5.7L Hemi costs less than half as much to make as the 3.5L V6...and yet the V8 takes a HUGE premium over the six? I don't see any threads on C&G complaining about "gouging" at Chrysler, which seems to mean enthusiasts are willing to pay the premium.

If your cash cow has that kind of demand, are you going to stop production of it?

[Sixty8panther]

To get that 28 rating you would probably have to drive at 55 mph on the nose on a perfecty straight highway with a tail wind in DOD mode.

So if you're all bent out of shape over MPGs then drive it that

way in the slow lane... it's a free country. But when and if you

need some sack it's there waiting for you.

---------

People seem to be getting fixated on horsepower, torque & MPG

when the real issue is consumer's preception. V6s do not and will

never have the high-end preception, sound & smoothness of V8s.

[Hudson]

evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes. Disk capacities have grown trememdously over the past couple of years, way more than what the average user needs. However, despite that fact, they'll still buy the computer with the 300gb hard drive because they somehow feel it's "better" than the one with the 80gb drive (all other specs being equal), which is still more space than they'll ever need for the life of the computer. Horsepower, like hard drive space, is a selling point, and more is better in the eyes of consumers.

I don't like this analogy. I don't know about you, but I'm filling my 300gb harddrive VERY quickly. And too much harddrive space will not kill someone...too much horsepower in the wrong hands will.

I'd rather see the comparison between horsepower and processor speed. Making a faster computer is great, but are you using the same technology as a 286 in your current Pentium IV? A modern CPU works faster and more efficiently than the old design. A modern V6 is doing a better job of moving a vehicle than that of a V8 just a few years ago. The smaller engine has less friction, fewer moving parts, etc, making the engine more efficient and still generating more than usable power.

Computers haven't reached (at least not in my hands) the point where the additional speed doesn't show up in my applications, but V8 engines may have. When a six-cylinder engine or four-cylinder engine can do the same job and return better gas mileage and fewer emissions, why do we need the V8? As was pointed out, does every car need to do 0-60 (0-100kph to our metric friends) in under five seconds? Seven, eight, even ten seconds to 60 mph is more than adequate for 98% of the drivers and driving situations out there.

I'm sure someone could take a 286 chip and make it run at 3ghz, but wouldn't a modern Pentium IV make more sense?

[Sixty8panther]

And too much harddrive space will not kill someone...too much horsepower in the wrong hands will.

Now we're really getting silly. So now the "death of the V8"

is supported by the "too much HP is dangerous" theory,

but yet a few pages ago it was about V6s putting out

near-V8 power.

Anyone who lives near a city that is heavy in modified

Import Fart Can Cars can tell you that 1.6 liter CRXs &

1.8 liter Integras kill just as quickly as any V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't be fooled. My buddy works for a big company and drives a 2006 Impala 3LT with the 3900 and averages 24-25 mpg. He got his hands on an SS Impala with it's V8 and did the exact same type of driving with close to the same break in miles and averaged 18-20 mpg. To get that 28 rating you would probably have to drive at 55 mph on the nose on a perfecty straight highway with a tail wind in DOD mode. The V6 is still going to be more effiecient in everyday driving.

And I drive a CTS V6 and get 18 around town while my Avalanche gets 14.

Yay V-6 fuel efficiency.

[The O.C.]

Okay....personal experience.....relative to paying for gas......

I'm most likely changing jobs within a few months and will have to purchase a car for a daily-driver.....and will obviously have to pay for gas.

I'm in the market for a luxurious and sporty 4-door sedan. Top of my list is the BMW 5-series. Why?

1) BMW maintenance program. No maintenance costs during my lease.

2) I can get a "dealership employee deal" through Aaron.

3) One of the few luxury sedans I can get with a 6-speed MANUAL.

4) The FABULOUS 3.0L magnesium inline-6 (255hp, 530i version) gets EPA ratings of 20city/30 (!) highway with the manual.

That last one is most important to me. After my experience with my C6, there's no way I would get the 550i.....I don't want to have to pay for V8 gas mileage. For the little I do drive the Corvette (for fun and stuff) I can afford to fill the tank so I don't bitch about it. However, when looking at a daily-driver for back-and-forth to work and the airport and stuff, I have to consider the fuel economy issue alot stronger. The 530i is really no different loaded up (other than the engine) and should get far better real world mileage.

About the C6.....sure.....on a straight freeway cruise I can average 25, 26, 27mpg.....but that literally is with straight, non-interrupted, cruise-controlled highway driving.

Any driving in and around L.A./O.C. drops the MPG like a ROCK. I just filled up my tank and got 13.7mpg with a mix of city stop-and-go, and a bit of southern California freeway driving added in. Around town, I average between 11mpg (all city, never getting on the freeway) to 16mpg (some local freeway driving included.)

In another day, I would have only gotten the V8 550i because I'm a power-junkie and love the sound and feel.

Real world conditions today (and now having to pay for my gas, unlike my company car) have made me have to really consider what I buy.

I think it's a real-world issue and Evok has hit it on the head.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Okay....personal experience.....relative to paying for gas......

I'm most likely changing jobs within a few months and will have to purchase a car for a daily-driver.....and will obviously have to pay for gas.

I'm in the market for a luxurious and sporty 4-door sedan.  Top of my list is the BMW 5-series.  Why?

1)  BMW maintenance program.  No maintenance costs during my lease.

2)  I can get a "dealership employee deal" through Aaron.

3)  One of the few luxury sedans I can get with a 6-speed MANUAL.

4)  The FABULOUS 3.0L magnesium inline-6 (255hp, 530i version) gets EPA ratings of 20city/30 (!) highway with the manual.

That last one is most important to me.  After my experience with my C6, there's no way I would get the 550i.....I don't want to have to pay for V8 gas mileage.  For the little I do drive the Corvette (for fun and stuff) I can afford to fill the tank so I don't bitch about it.  However, when looking at a daily-driver for back-and-forth to work and the airport and stuff, I have to consider the fuel economy issue alot stronger.  The 530i is really no different loaded up (other than the engine) and should get far better real world mileage.

About the C6.....sure.....on a straight freeway cruise I can average 25, 26, 27mpg.....but that literally is with straight, non-interrupted, cruise-controlled highway driving.

Any driving in and around L.A./O.C. drops the MPG like a ROCK.  I just filled up my tank and got 13.7mpg with a mix of city stop-and-go, and a bit of southern California freeway driving added in.  Around town, I average between 11mpg (all city, never getting on the freeway) to 16mpg (some local freeway driving included.)

In another day, I would have only gotten the V8 550i because I'm a power-junkie and love the sound and feel.

Real world conditions today (and now having to pay for my gas, unlike my company car) have made me have to really consider what I buy.

I think it's a real-world issue and Evok has hit it on the head.

That is really bad gas mileage, I drove a 99 Silverado ext cab 5.3L for 2 weeks, and averaged 17mpg in mixed city/hwy driving.

[91z4me]

4)  The FABULOUS 3.0L magnesium inline-6 (255hp, 530i version) gets EPA ratings of 20city/30 (!) highway with the manual.

Is there not a 300 HP version of the I6 in the M3? Why isn't that available in the 5 series?

BTW great choice, though I preffer the exterior of the older 5 series better.

[The O.C.]

Is there not a 300 HP version of the I6 in the M3?  Why isn't that available in the 5 series?

BTW great choice, though I preffer the exterior of the older 5 series better.

Thanks! Well, I haven't done it yet because it prolly won't be for another month or so, but I'm already thinking about the car because I don't want to have to drive the C6 too many miles.....and I know whatever I get, I'll have to most likely special-order it.

There is a 333hp 3.2L version of the I6 in the M3 but that's based upon the old block I believe.

The CTS is also on my short list.....in 3.6L/6-speed manual/18-inch sport package combo.....but I'm not that crazy about the interior (common gripe I know) but it's still a contender. Also, no maintenance program.

The 3-series I considered too.....but if I'm going BMW, I'd rather have the 5'er in this case because the bigger car will be nice for taking clients out and luggage space and stuff.

No A6, E-Class, STS or any other GM sedan because of no manual/V6 combo.

I thought about Audi A4 in either 2.0T or V6 guise.....but if I am going to go A4-ish, I'll just get the 330i.

We shall see.....

[Viperfan07]

I was thinking naturally aspirated.

And I agree, that I do not see a decrease in power rating unless - the middle east turns the tap off.

The exact reason why automakers, esp American (GM, DCX), need 2 find an !!ALTERNATIVE FUEL!! instead of designing hybrids. Sure hybrids may use less gasoline, they still need it to run. When will the auto industry wake up and say "Hey lets not use gas anymore and use <insert alternative fuel here>." America needs to be independent from the chains of oil. I wouldnt care if ExxonMobil fell those dirty bastards... Mayb if America could pioneer in complete alternative fuel vehicle technology we wouldnt look like energy consuming pigs.

[balthazar]

O.C.=

In another day, I would have only gotten the V8 550i because I'm a power-junkie and love the sound and feel.

Which are many of the reasons other consumers want V-8s.

hudson=

A modern V6 is doing a better job of moving a vehicle than that of a V8 just a few years ago.

So is a modern V-8.

[The O.C.]

O.C.=

Which are many of the reasons other consumers want V-8s.

Yeah but did you TOTALLY miss my point?

Sure people WANT those V8 attributes.....but in today's reality, it's becoming alot harder to justify the fuel expense.

My point is that I'm seeing that myself and am faced with that very decision....

[evok]

Sure people WANT those V8 attributes.....but in today's reality, it's becoming alot harder to justify the fuel expense. 

My point is that I'm seeing that myself and am faced with that very decision....

Exactly, and I just made that same decision myself by opting for the V6 over the V8.

What do I need 320 hp for, when I am chasing stop lights most of the time. Not to mention getting saddled with 12-14 mpg in that type of driving with the V8.

The perceived difference under normal driving between the 6 and the 8 under normal circumstance could not justify the 8.

[redfox]

I find that there is not that much difference in gas milage between the v6 and the v8 in my experince with both the v8 seems to last longer.

[Cory Wolfe]

I don't want a V8, let alone need one... No one needs one as far as cars go. They are pure luxuries, not necesities. They are for greedy, selfish who are too good for smaller engines. There, I said it.

[Sixty8panther]

Exactly, and I just made that same decision myself by opting for the V6 over the V8.

In what? What do you drive these days, I forget?

-----

Note to self: buy a 1988 Pontiac Fiero GT and

throw the V6 in the dumpster... fabricate tube

chassis rear subframe and drop in 572 cu. in.

V8 out of the GM parts catalog.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Bandit 1]

I don't think V8's will go away anytime soon. I don't think many people would like a top of the line Camaro, like an SS, with a V6, it just wouldn't be right.

V8's Forever!!

[balthazar]

How ego-centric do you have to get to assume that when one makes a particular decision, it's indicative of a 16-million unit industry shift??

[evok]

How thick headed and stubborn does one have to be to understand that data drives educated decisions and opinions in this industry, paricularly buyer data.

Edited June 3, 2006 by evok

[BatmanGTO]

After reading everyones "logical" imput let me say this.... the V8 won't die, the V6 won't die, even the V4 won't die. its just is not going to happen.

The title of this thread is death of the V8.

The only things likely to happen is.....

V8 sales go down or,

Better fuel economy happens to all engines for 4's through 12's letting everyone still pick what they want which might increase V8 sales or it might not who cares, the V8 will still be around. It would not be cost effective for every car maker in the world to just get rid of a type of engine... the need for it would arise sooner or later because unless someone really wants to argue the V8 is not better at some things than a V6 just like the V6 is better than some things than a V8 is everyone just being in denial.

While some people may think the horsepower wars are ending.... well guess what the technology wars are never going to end. Its possible to have a 700 horsepower car that gets 25/35. We just have not figured out how to do it yet. Now whether they get a 4-6-8-10-12 or even 16 to do it remains to be seen. So how about everyone sits back, relaxes and waits for the technology to do the talking.

[Hudson]

After reading everyones "logical" imput let me say this.... the V8 won't die, the V6 won't die, even the V4 won't die. its just is not going to happen.

Your analysis was brilliant. Just to prove how automotively educated you are, name one current car (or truck for that matter) powered by a V4 engine.

[balthazar]

How about instead of saying "death", "decline", "niche" and "novelty", why not try posting some real, actual "data" so we can all get past the hand-wringing extrapolation of personal opinion. Go get the NADM retail V-8 totals for the last 10 years, make up a tidy chart & post it and try again to make this theory remotely worth debating. I promise I won't argue straight, comprehensive fact.