Death of the V8?

[evok]

I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks. The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason. Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

You can only go so fast to 60 mph or the ¼ mile. in real terms. The buff magazines might split hairs over 0 -to-60 times, but the average consumer will not.

For that very reason, the V8 for passenger vehicles may soon be phased out because it no longer matters.

GM had already cancelled the V10 because they could do the same thing with the LSx V8 in the full sized utilities and pickups. The V10 might have made headlines in the press and media but that would be about it. How much longer until a V6 can do exactly what a V8 does as technology progresses further.

With power rating increasing across the board for passenger vehicles of all types and powertrain configurations, how much longer does the V8 have left beyond what a V12 application has today?

Beyond specialty applications and limited edition vehicles, I am finding less and less of purpose for the V8 even in the more or less main stream luxury market.

For some it could be argued that a Hybrid powertrain might be the image powertrain of the future. That seems to be the approach Lexus is taking with their top of the line powertrain offerings.

In the not to distant future, the V8 might be relegated to a novelty status in the industry.

It is reaching the point where naturally aspirated V6s have 300+hp. I am finding less and less of a point of the V8 beyond that applications I mentioned above.

Before readers fly off the handle at what I just suggested. Step away from the computer and just think about what I did write.

Edited May 12, 2007 by evok

[Drew Dowdell]

I think you're correct, but that doesn't mean I like it.

The down side is even a 300hp V6 doesn't have the low down torque a 300hp V8 has.

[Northstar]

Are V6s going to be making 350-400HP in the future N/A? If so, the V8s days are numbered, but I still see a market for V8s in Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, GTOs, 300Cs, Chargers, and the Zeta cars.

Really, V8s aren't very common anyways. Other than the Corvette, SSR, GTO, V-Series cars, and trucks and SUVs, the only GM V8s I can think of are: GP GXP, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, STS, DTS, XLR, and Lucerne. And the Impy SS, MC SS, and Lucerne didn't have V8s before MY2006.

None of the vehicles I listed sell in very high volume, so you could say the V8 is already phased out of passenger cars for the most part.

BTW I'm going to put this on the front page.

[evok]

BTW I'm going to put this on the front page.

That is fine with me. I actually got the idea from reading your posts in the DI Northstar thread. I thought it might make for some good discussion.

[Sixty8panther]

Fu$k that.

I think the V8 is just now reaching it's golden age.

DOD means the V8 will become more prominent

in years to come. Between the cheap feel & N.V.H.

of 4s and V6s I do not aspire ot own too many.

99.9% of my dream cars are either V8, I6, I8 or in

some cases two I6s or I8s joined at the crank. :wink:

What you describe is pretty much my worst nightmare.

I say GM needs a modern 215.... or perhaps even smaller

family of V8s. Mazda had the right idea with the MX3 GSV6,

except they need to make baby V8s instead of baby V6s.

[sgfootball2006]

LONG LIVE THE V8!!!

[97regalGS]

i agree. V6's have come a long way and for the 'average' consumer with 'normal' needs a V6 is good enough.

but for pure performance in larger cars you'll need a V8. and for that image conscious buyer, a 300C is diddly squat without the Hemi. for that reason alone the V8 will not die. volumes may decrese, but it will not die.

the Lexus strategy is an interesting one. it's success will depend on the longevity, technical advances and practicality of hybrid technology.

[ShadowDog]

DOD means the V8 will become more prominent

in years to come.

I'm not quite seeing a shift in interest simply due to D.O.D., considering it's not quite efficient enough to be considered an alternative to what can be from a more economical V6.

The issue isn't purely based on fuel economy anyway; rather, I see it's based more on the viability of having a more efficient package. It can be just as powerful as a V8, though lighter, and easier to design with a particular engine bay in mind.

I'm certainly not going to list positives for a V8 that deal with the sound at the tailpipes, or the roar off the line. None of that really has as much significance in the passenger car market. A V8 would likely be more of a marketing ploy for image than for practical use in anything else that a V6 can't accomplish itself.

Edited May 25, 2006 by ShadowDog

[jbartley]

Really, V8s aren't very common anyways. Other than the Corvette, SSR, GTO, V-Series cars, and trucks and SUVs, the only GM V8s I can think of are: GP GXP, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, STS, DTS, XLR, and Lucerne. And the Impy SS, MC SS, and Lucerne didn't have V8s before MY2006.

None of the vehicles I listed sell in very high volume, so you could say the V8 is already phased out of passenger cars for the most part.

NONE of those sell in high volume? DTS is the #1 selling luxury vehicle, i wouldn't say that's small volume.

In the average car, maybe V6 will replace the V8, but as far as luxury and performance applications, and trucks. The V8 is far from it.

[ShadowDog]

In the average car, maybe V6 will replace the V8, but as far as luxury and performance applications, and trucks. The V8 is far from it.

Isn't that what evok pointed out, for the passenger car market particularly?

[jbartley]

IGM had already cancelled the V10 because they could do the same thing with the LSx V8 in the full sized utilities and pickups.  The V10 might have made headlines in the press and media but that would be about it.  How much longer until a V6 can do exactly what a V8 does as technology progresses further.

You're ignoring the fact the V10 was also canceled b/c of the MAJOR issues it had. The engine was not going to make financial sense, nor was the quality up to par with other V-10's (Audi, BMW).

As far as I know, GM's V-12 plan wasn't canceled, but rather sits on the back burner.

[Northstar]

I'm not quite seeing a shift in interest simply due to D.O.D., considering it's not quite efficient enough to be considered an alternative to what can be from a more economical V6.

The issue isn't purely based on fuel economy anyway; rather, I see it's based more on the viability of having a more efficient package.  It can be just as powerful as a V8, though lighter, and easier to design with a particular engine bay in mind.

I'm certainly not going to list positives for a V8 that deal with the sound at the tailpipes, or the roar off the line.  None of that really has as much significance in the passenger car market.  A V8 would likely be more of a marketing ploy for image than for practical use in anything else that a V6 can't accomplish itself.

I agree with everything except the first part. The Impala SS gets 18/28 while the less powerful (by 60HP) 3.9L gets 19/27... basically equal.

NONE of those sell in high volume? DTS is the #1 selling luxury vehicle, i wouldn't say that's small volume.

Well 1/3 of DTS are to fleets, and cutting the volume by 1/3 doesn't give you too much volume.

[AAS]

I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks.  The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason.  Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

...

It is reaching the point where naturally aspirated V6s have 300+hp.  I am finding less and less of a point of the V8 beyond that applications I mentioned above.

Conversely... you can argue that technology is giving modern V8's the fuel efficiency ?and comparable weight? of current V6's. So does it come down to which technology, with respect to power of a V6 or efficiency of a V8, costs less? In which case... the cheaper will survive.

[jbartley]

Isn't that what evok pointed out, for the passenger car market particularly?

no, because the number of luxury and performance vehicles, along with the sheer number of trucks wouldn't make V8's a "novelty status in the industry".

[jbartley]

I agree with everything except the first part. The Impala SS gets 18/28 while the less powerful (by 60HP) 3.9L gets 19/27... basically equal.

Since they're basically equal, let's compare

a) engine cost

b) how the engine performs (the V6 as smooth as the V8)

C) torque curves

[evok]

You're ignoring the fact the V10 was also canceled b/c of the MAJOR issues it had. The engine was not going to make financial sense, nor was the quality up to par with other V-10's (Audi, BMW).

As far as I know, GM's V-12 plan wasn't canceled, but rather sits on the back burner.

There is no ignoring the fact that OEMs can do more with less.

There is a limit to what the public demands and needs for HP and torque.

The HP race will end sooner or later.

As someone pointed out above - vehicles will need to be designed into more effecient packages.

All but 5 years ago, who would have thought that mainstream faimly sedans could be optioned with 250+hp figures with a V6. Or that 300 hp would be becoming available in naturally aspirated V6s?

Even I4s are closing in on 200hp. That was Corvette territory not so long ago.

A good portion of the fleet is going to 60 in under 8 or even 7 seconds with these powertrains.

I put this question on the table because it has to end.

[Variance]

In passenger cars, I'm not entirely sure what the fate of the V8 is.

They've only just recently come back and I can't see Dodge or Chrylser getting rid of theirs any time soon as the V8 is part of those cars' appeal. They were built around the muscle car image; they look like they were designed to have V8s from the start.

The Impala and Grand Prix on the other hand do not. Their designs can accommodate V8s but looking at them you don't get the sense that they were meant to have them. The Grand Prix especially, went through generations without V8 power.

What I'm getting at is that the GM V8 passenger cars are special edition vehicles and there's no guarantee that they will always have V8 power. Something tells me the DCX cars are more likely to.

If a car was designed to around the idea of being a family car first and foremost (the aforementioned GMs) don't bet on the V8 being an integral part of the car's DNA. It's just a novelty.

I hope I didn't ramble on too much.

[z28luvr01]

There is a limit to what the public demands and needs for HP and torque.

The HP race will end sooner or later.

evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes. Disk capacities have grown trememdously over the past couple of years, way more than what the average user needs. However, despite that fact, they'll still buy the computer with the 300gb hard drive because they somehow feel it's "better" than the one with the 80gb drive (all other specs being equal), which is still more space than they'll ever need for the life of the computer. Horsepower, like hard drive space, is a selling point, and more is better in the eyes of consumers.

[Mr.Krinkle]

its pretty apparent that theyre getting more from less but i still dont trust those small motors churning out 200 hp for 4's and 300+ for the 6's

maybe thats just me but how much can you squeeze out of it. somethings gotta give at some point.

towing/hauling will never be without the power and torque of the v8. when it comes to passegers cars as you say, yeah, unless its the big benz' or cadillacs i dont think thats the first thing that comes to mind anymore.

its an interesting thought and tend to agree on some parts but really just dont see it happening. dont forget that many of these v6 engines can wind up bigger than the v8's so as far as packaging goes it can get dicey.

theres really no need for 12 cylinders but they exist still, is that the kind of status you see the 8 gravitating towards?

Edited May 25, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

its an interesting thought and tend to agree on some parts but really just dont see it happening.  dont forget that many of these v6 engines can wind up bigger than the v8's so as far as packaging goes it can get dicey. 

Real packaging is related to external dimensions.

theres really no need for 12 cylinders but they exist still,  is that the kind of status you see the 8 gravitating towards?

And yes but maybe not that drastic.

[evok]

evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes. Disk capacities have grown trememdously over the past couple of years, way more than what the average user needs. However, despite that fact, they'll still buy the computer with the 300gb hard drive because they somehow feel it's "better" than the one with the 80gb drive (all other specs being equal), which is still more space than they'll ever need for the life of the computer. Horsepower, like hard drive space, is a selling point, and more is better in the eyes of consumers.

Actually I disagree with you analogy in the context of the automobile because of the amount of external factors that are involved in this industry.

I do agree in theory however nothing in this business is every "all things being equal".

[Cory Wolfe]

I don't need a V8... or even a V6 in many cases. What was said supports that.

[Drew Dowdell]

All but 5 years ago, who would have thought that mainstream faimly sedans could be optioned with 250+hp figures with a V6. Or that 300 hp would be becoming available in naturally aspirated V6s?

Uh...

1996 Olds LSS

1996 Pontiac Gran Prix

1996 Buick Regal GS

were all within 10HP of that.

I put this question on the table because it has to end.

The HP increase may level off, but I don't think we'll see another decline in HP like we did in the late 70's early 80's.

[evok]

I don't need a V8... or even a V6 in many cases. What was said supports that.

Actually it does not in the context of this thread.

Computers are not a regulated industry the same way the auto industry is.

Computer are not quantified by the amount of energy they use.

Computers do not kill people.

etc..

I think you get my point.

[evok]

Uh...

1996 Olds LSS

1996 Pontiac Gran Prix

1996 Buick Regal GS

were all within 10HP of that.

The HP increase may level off, but I don't think we'll see another decline in HP like we did in the late 70's early 80's.

I was thinking naturally aspirated.

And I agree, that I do not see a decrease in power rating unless - the middle east turns the tap off.

[z28luvr01]

Actually I disagree with you analogy in the context of the automobile because of the amount of external factors that are involved in this industry.

I do agree in theory however nothing in this business is every "all things being equal".

True, computer OEMs don't have as many outside agencies, like the EPA and NHTSA, indirectly dictating the content of their product. Still, I feel manufacturers will continue raising the bar as long as they can do so and still achieve the requirements for fuel efficiency, emissions, safety that are thrust upon them.

I do see them hitting a wall with respect to the amount of power that they can extract from an engine given the current engine technology and its associated cost.

[z28luvr01]

Actually it does not in the context of this thread.

Computers are not a regulated industry the same way the auto industry is.

Computer are not quantified by the amount of energy they use.

Computers do not kill people.

etc..

I think you get my point.

Actually, I think what BV was saying is that your article supports his lack of desire to own a V8, or even a V6. BV, feel free to correct me, though.

[evok]

Actually, I think what BV was saying is that your article supports his lack of desire to own a V8, or even a V6. BV, feel free to correct me, though.

BV forgive me if I misunderstood.

[CaddyXLR-V]

V8s wont be needed much outside of luxury cars, sports cars and trucks. Though I wish they would just make smaller v8s like 3.5L-4L, with VVT, DI, DOHC, to take the place of big V6s.

[ZL-1]

If the say a V6 architecture is cheapest to develop and produce (which I guess it is, although my guess is not an educated one) and the easiest to package, AND is able provide the same level of power, refinement and whatever other characeristics people value (think turbodiesel engines that can have more torque than bigger gas engines), we could very well see V8s becoming what V12s have become: specialty applications.

Also, I found the comment on the Lexus approach to hybrids very interesting, because when I was reading about the hybrid LS I got convinved that Lexus is presenting 'hybrid' in the direction of an image car in the same sense a BMW or Ferrari present their V12 offerings.

[tama z71]

Sorry. The visceral effect of knowing that you have a V8 is greater than saying "my six cylinder makes more horsepower with two less cylinders!"

I could actually write a counter-article to this notion. Friendly competition.

[ehaase]

Even if a V6 or 4 cylinder makes a lot of power and torque, I still prefer the sound and feel of a V8. But by the time I buy my next car, only high end luxury and performance cars will have V8's.

[Sixty8panther]

Sorry if I seem pissy but this is a sore topic with me just like FWD.

I think Evok's ideas are a little too reflective of the doomsday

thinking of the mid 1970s. I'm sure there was many an intelect

predicted the death of the V8 or even V6 for that matter.

I don't care how much you dress up and "high feature" a V6 it will

NEVER have te appleal of a V8. I'd take almost any basic,

dinosaur of a V8 over most super-modern, powerfull efficient 4/6

cylinders.

Would I take a 40s era flathead over Infiniti's VQ six? Probably

not in a car made in 2006 but you get the point. The Corvette,

Camaro and future Zetas mean that the small bock V8 is more

alive than ever. A four cylinder still reeks of "CHEAP" even with

DOHC, VVTi, turbochargers, supercharging, headers & a 10,000

RPM redline.

You can't polish a turd. :wink:

BOLD PREDICTION:

V8 will NEVER decline in numbers significantly from their respective

market shares from todays #s, so long as Internal Combustion

does not go away.... what WILL happen is that displacement #s will

go down drastically. A "BIG BLOCK V8" may be a 3.5 liters in two

decades.

Beyond that it's HYDROGEN all the way. Hybrids will be to the 2000s

what the turbine was to the 1960s.

[/not_so_humble_oppinion]

[Flybrian]

An eight-cylinder car has an allure a six-cylinder doesn't. That alone will sell.

[mightymouse]

The V-8 has an intangible quality or feel, along with the sound, that begs to

be driven....aside from the virtues of torque, longevity, and smooth operation.

I respectfully disagree. Anyone can predict the obvious, and I doubt the V-8 will

go away anytime soon....I'd rather have a V-8 infrontofme than a frontal lobotomy

[Angry Dad]

V8 is far from "dead" in fact the configuration has gained more stature recently. Doesn't matter who builds it, V6s are lousy at AFM, DOD, or whatever acronym you use. And it's all but imposible to do it as a 4. The recent gains in electronic tricks in the form of variable valve timing and lift again put V8s at an advantage. The curse of any V engine is the need of more than one cat converter. Along with that the need to place them so close to the valves.

With a resurgance in RWD vehicles, again the V8 is a desirable configuration. Straight 6s simply take up too much space. V6s are smaller but again the tricks don't work. The real wonder is who will build a a mini V8. Myself, I would be thrilled to see a mid sized truck/van with a 250 hp V8. With reasonable weight reduction efforts and a six speed transmission, the current tech could deliver a high twenty / low thirty mpg vehicle that could be used on weekends to move toys and people.

[The O.C.]

That is fine with me.  I actually got the idea from reading your posts in the DI Northstar thread.  I thought it might make for some good discussion.

I think V8s are to stay....but in increasingly niche-like numbers. So my opinion mirrors yours, but I think in some car segments, it will still remain strong.

Obviously the appeal of a V8 in a car like the Corvette or even Mustang is apparent....and I also think that many luxury car buyers in the $60K-and-up segment will want only a V8....

To me, a V8 offers a level of smoothness and aural pleasure that you can only get from a configuation of eight cylinders.

I think where segments will get hit are segments where the manufacturers offer 6 AND 8 cylinder options such as cars like the BMW 5-series, M-Benz E-Class, and Audi A6.

My friend that works for Audi says the V8-powered A6 is "sale-proof." I can attest that BMW sells WAY more 525i and 530i models than they do 550i models. (However, in BMW's case, production is alot lower on the V8 5-series so when they do sell one, it's usually for a strong profit....at MSRP or only SLIGHTLY discounted from MSRP.)

It will be interesting to watch!

[The O.C.]

NONE of those sell in high volume? DTS is the #1 selling luxury vehicle, i wouldn't say that's small volume.

Don't get me started on another "fleet versus retail" market share argument again. Fleets are the ONLY reason DTS sells so many units. Hardly a fair comparison to Evok's thread.

[Sixty8panther]

I'd rather have a V-8 infrontofme than a frontal lobotomy

That's signature matterial right there!

[camaro]

There is nothing sexier than the power, torque, sound, and smoothness of a GM- manufactured V8. It just purrs. LONG LIVE THE V8!

[L79]

I was thinking it may go the other way, especially with cylinder cutoff, you have a built-in 4 popper for gas milage and back to all 8 for power, torque ....all this is of course based on if they fine tune and develop it further then they have already and having read about the 2 stage hybrid...looks like things are going to get interesting though.

[Sixty8panther]

I was thinking it may go the other way, especially with cylinder cutoff, you have a built-in 4 popper for gas milage and back to all 8 for power, torque

Yes!

I'd much rather see the Ecotech and every V6 GM makes in the freekin

dumpster than see even a slight drop in V8 production.

Screw that. I say GM could even go to ONE I4.... of like 3 disp. and then

completely phase out all the V6s. Just make two more engine families of

V8s. A small-disp. V8 & a SUPER small V8 family all with DOD. LIke say

a 2.5 liter V8 and a 3.5-4.0 liter V8. Small in size, great MPG with all

the smoothness and desirability of the ultimate non-exotic powerplant.

Long live the USA and by extension the V8.

[Camino LS6]

Not gonna happen. As long as the internal combustion engine is in production, so will V8s be.

That's not to say that the ICE will be around forever but as long as it is the V8 will be available. Today's V8s have closed the MPG gap to the point that a V6 often has little or no real mileage advantage over a V8 in the same car.

One other reason is that the V8 is a necessity for SUV and light truck applications and therefore is practical for the manufacturers as a passenger car powerplant. V8s are a volume powerplant and will continue to be so.

What might kill the V8 in cars would be the misguided safety-nazis that believe that a low horsepower car is safer than a high horsepower car. As wrong and foolish as that notion is, the perception is there to be exploited by over-zealous media, insurance companies, and reactionary politicians.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I agree with some of what evok said, but like everyone else, truck people think completey differently from car people. I want a V8 in a truck, and nothing less unless i'm talking about a "mid-size" truck and then I want the biggest engine you can stuff in there no matter what. That's just my way of thinking. And there is a definite smoothness to a V8 that you just can't duplicate with an I4 or a V6, then again that might be because of the cylinder arrangement and that you have a piston firing so closely together as compared to a 4-hampster power, or even a six hampster powered engine.

[ShadowDog]

While it appears clear that the V8 is not likely to slip out of the truck and SUV market, it is specific to its application. I would tend to think that most soccer-mom SUVs on the highway have a V6 under their hood. Practical use of a mini-van has put the V6 well ahead of the V8. I say it's quite likely that practical use of a passenger car will continue to drive the demand for the V6 for efficient and effective design over the V8. Everything else with an octo-cylinder engine will either be strictly upper-class and luxury models.

I don't particularly enjoy poking at responses; however, 68, your post made me chuckle:

I don't care how much you dress up and "high feature" a V6 it will

NEVER have te appleal of a V8. I'd take almost any basic,

dinosaur of a V8 over most super-modern, powerfull efficient 4/6

cylinders.

The fact that my 3.4L DOHC V6 (the dreadful LQ1) from 1995 outpaced the rediculous '83 305 V8 in the Camaro on a regular basis solidifies both our points. That V6 had practical use, efficiency, and all-around performance for the most of its needs in the cars it was shoe-horned into. That V8 only had appeal because of the number of cylinders, and the car it was attached to - it certainly had nothing to do with its performance. If you still would rather have that V8, then it rests at being a novelty.

Sure, it can be dressed and tuned for higher output; however, so too could the V6.

At this point, I'll have to agree that for the passenger car of today, a V8 is a want while a V6 is a need. I would have to admit that I also believe the days of the V8 are far from numbered; however, technology continues to make leaps. Where the comparison of the hard drive is considered, I think it wasn't quite complete. Take two drives with varying capacity for storage. One is your standard hard drive, while the other is a flash card. One is only useful in the tower of your computer while the other is capable of use in multiple applications. Storage capacity continues to make leaps to where that flash card begins to have the capability to satisfy a greater number of users because of its flexibility and usage offerings. The hard drive is just a hard drive.

The V8 horsepower wars will likely steady. It's abilities in performance cars will always be a/the determining factor in their purchase; however, in a passenger car, it's abilities will be treated as a luxury rather than necessity. The V6 will continue its steady march on to continue being the engine of choice as we know it now, due to flexibility, ease of design in practical packaging and lack for need of anything more.

- stepping down now for further reading.

[MyerShift]

A very unique proposition and discussion here.

Although possible, I don't see V8's being phased out, just like I feel the V12 shall be around for years to come if only for the bragging factor.

I mean, V12!

How cool is that?

[Drew Dowdell]

12 is always something to brag about.

8 is usually something to brag about.

Who ever brags about a 6 or a 4?

:AH-HA_wink:

Edited May 26, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[Sixty8panther]

Everything else with an octo-cylinder engine will either be strictly upper-class and luxury models.

That will be a sad, SAD day. If I had to boil down my love for GM to

one sentence and not include the RWD acronym, I'd say:

"Affordable V8s for the masses."

This was true in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s & '90s... but now in 2006 we

don't have much but there's promise of good times ahead... last thing

we need is this negativity.

Eventually the sun will burn out too but no sense talking about it.

The fact that my 3.4L DOHC V6 (the dreadful LQ1) from 1995 outpaced the rediculous '83 305 V8 in the Camaro on a regular basis solidifies both our points.

Dude, that's an apples to apples comparison like

I could compare the LS7 to that LQ1 and make

it seem like a pathetic four cylinder from 2006.

In 1983 a 3.4 liter V6 made about as much power

as a 2003 Kia Spectra and in 1995 Chevy had

moved on to the LT1 and the LS1 was just around

the corner...

[Cory Wolfe]

BV forgive me if I misunderstood.

Heh... yeah, Z was right... I was talking about your original post. It's alright, though.

[FAPTurbo]

12 is always something to brag about.

8 is usually something to brag about.

Who ever brags about a 6 or a 4?

:AH-HA_wink: 

Heh, you may be surprised. I've had ricers brag to me about their "high performance" V6's... that is until I tell them that I drive a V8. They either shut up, or berate me for driving American...