So, my take on the Diesel "Scandal"

[Zane Wylder]

NWO/Globalist want to control the masses by limiting our mobility, thus shoving all these hybrids and EV's down our throats.

Diesel cars were becoming Mainstream as it's only slightly more expensive than regular and you get more range from it, underlined since people suffer Range Anxiety, no matter what the "Experts" will tell ya.

Diesel was a monkey wrench in the plans since it was a viable alternative that didn't rely on every trick in the book to get good economy (Strip the average hybrid of the cvt's, aerodynamic under panels and body parts and wheels and watch the mileage take a hit, whereas Diesel can be driven with standard and can be swapped into anything that can handle the extra heft basically), thus "3 students" at some University happened to find the cheat devices and supposedly it's releasing more emissions than claimed and now every libtarded government is going after diesel like it actually killed people, when no one remembers when Harley did something similar (They're domestic, thus they paid a fine and it was swept under the rug)

 

I bring this up since really, it was blown out of proportion and should of been dealt with without such scandal. 

You can talk about alternative fuel's all you want, they're not here yet, and those electric cars are powered by coal, thus if you bought it for environmental reasons, then the jokes on you.

No enthusiast wants to see their favorite sports cars bastardized by Hybridization and EV's, since unlike diesels, you're relegated to one transmission and when things inevitably go wrong, it's gonna be more of a pain to fix once the warranty goes out the window, plus again, take away the special panels and aero and the advantage disappears (Also, if you actually drive it like a normal person instead of Granny), while Diesel can be driven normally and you still get amazing mpg, and don't even get me started on the EV part, since despite the claims of "Superchargers" and "Extended batteries" and whatnot, you know unlike a modern ICE or Diesel, you so much as have the AC on during a hot summer day or the heat on during the middle of winter and actually drive it, your range is taking a hit!

 

I'm still not sure where people lean on this forum, and I could very well be reviled by some and loved by others for this, but hell with it, just my 2 cents

 

Enjoy

[G. David Felt]

@Zane Wylder Clearly you have not driven modern hybrid or electric auto. I would have agreed with you on the bastardized hybridized auto when looking at the very first hybrids from the 90's and even early 2000's. Yet Hybrid auto's are much faster with instant torque and can do much of what a diesel car did. There is no longer any reason for the polluting coal roaling cars. 

Not sure if your just unaware or just uneducated in regards to diesel, the acid rain it causes, the more than 40 toxic contaminants exhaust spews into the air and that most power is NOT created by Coal in the US. The bulk of power comes from much cleaner Natural Gas.

diesel-health-effects.pdf

Diesel has a place, but in trucks, not cars now and as technology pushes forward it will be replaced in trucks as well.

After 110 years, time for Diesel to fade away as well as petro.

[Drew Dowdell]

So remember in my note to you how you'll need to back up your statements?  We'll go through your original post....

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

NWO/Globalist want to control the masses by limiting our mobility, thus shoving all these hybrids and EV's down our throats.

How? How does a hybrid, which still uses gasoline, limit mobility?  EVs are not mandatory... if you don't like the Tesla, don't buy one. Last I looked, the gas-burner F-150 was still the best selling vehicle in the US.  There is NOTHING stopping you from buying one.  They even just added a diesel option.  Nothing is being shoved down your throat.  More transportation options are not a bad thing. 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

Diesel cars were becoming Mainstream as it's only slightly more expensive than regular and you get more range from it, underlined since people suffer Range Anxiety, no matter what the "Experts" will tell ya.

People suffer from fueling network anxiety with a diesel.  I've pointed that out in other threads where I would suggest a diesel to someone but their worry was finding fuel.  I like diesels, but it is not the savior you're making it out to be.  Its exhaust, without after treatment, is also substantially more toxic than gasoline.  That was VWs fault. VW's hubris and greed has pretty much killed any great future for diesel.  Blame them, not some conspiracy theory secret illuminati group.   As far as range anxiety, that will go away as range gets longer and chargers get more common.  In the meantime, nearly every manufacturer has or is coming out with plug-in hybrids for the transition.  Getting people used to plugging in creates a demand for more chargers which creates a demand for more plug-ins. 

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

Diesel was a monkey wrench in the plans since it was a viable alternative that didn't rely on every trick in the book to get good economy (Strip the average hybrid of the cvt's, aerodynamic under panels and body parts and wheels and watch the mileage take a hit, whereas Diesel can be driven with standard and can be swapped into anything that can handle the extra heft basically),

Those were the old hybrids. Hybrids now are all about adding power and drivability while also saving fuel.  Volvo doesn't make a 400hp / 427 lb-ft 4-cylinder hybrid as their top engine by accident. The 4-cylinder Volvo S90 PHEV will walk away from any normally aspirated V6 and many turbo V6es without blinking. It does so while getting 29 mpg combined when running on just gasoline and 71 mpg when adding its EV only range. This is not your father's first generation Toyota Prius. In case you're thinking the Volvo is an exception, the Cadillac CT6 PHEV is 25 combined and 62 mpg with EV. At a more accessible level, the Ford Fusion Energi is 42mpg combined and 97 mpg with EV.  In all cases, the emissions of these PHEVs will be substantially lower than even the cleanest of diesels. 

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

thus "3 students" at some University happened to find the cheat devices and supposedly it's releasing more emissions than claimed

It's not "supposedly". It happened. Bosch built the device and specifically warned VW against using it in production.  The students performed the test because there was reasonable doubt about VW's claims.  VW claimed that they were able to meet emissions standards without any special technology in the emissions control system and wouldn't explain how they did it.  Turns out, that they were able to do it by cheating on the emissions test.  

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

every libtarded government is going after diesel like it actually killed people, when no one remembers when Harley did something similar (They're domestic, thus they paid a fine and it was swept under the rug)

You've already been spoken to about part of this.  Smog and pollution do kill people. Respiratory distress caused by smog is a real thing.  Harley sales are a fraction of even just the Jetta.  Furthermore, Harley was not selling bikes outfitted with the cheater from the factory... they sold a reprogrammer that was only to be used for competition tuning, it is unlikely that even 5% of the Harleys sold got the modification after the fact.  The situations are not at all parallel.  As far as being domestic or not.... it's the German/EU government who has come down hard on VW. Not just the US.  VW knowingly committed fraud in the sale of hundreds of thousands of vehicles... you think the government should just look away?

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

You can talk about alternative fuel's all you want, they're not here yet, and those electric cars are powered by coal, thus if you bought it for environmental reasons, then the jokes on you.

I don't have an EV or PHEV yet, but when I do, it will be powered by wind. I have energy selection here in PA and at least 20 other states have it too.  If someone is environmentally conscious enough to buy an EV, they're probably also going to know enough to switch their energy provider.  I have a 2 year wind energy contract and my rate is the same as what I would be charged for coal.  Furthermore, coal generation is rapidly declining as it gets replaced by natural gas.  While natural gas still releases carbon, the overall pollution footprint is much smaller. 

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

No enthusiast wants to see their favorite sports cars bastardized by Hybridization and EV's, since unlike diesels, you're relegated to one transmission and when things inevitably go wrong, it's gonna be more of a pain to fix once the warranty goes out the window, plus again, take away the special panels and aero and the advantage disappears

If you haven't noticed, all cars are getting this aero and special panels, diesels included. The new silverado has those slits in the front bumper just to direct air around the front wheels. Cars are already a nightmare to fix.  I'm not sure what you mean by the "one" transmission.... manuals are going the way of the Dodo already and your choice is going to come down to 8-speed automatic or 10-Speed automatic. 

 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

(Also, if you actually drive it like a normal person instead of Granny), while Diesel can be driven normally and you still get amazing mpg

Your impression of hybrids appears to be out of date. If you limit yourself to Eco-Green oriented vehicles like the Pruis, then yes, if you drive it hard, the fuel economy suffers... but part of that is because it is a fairly under powered vehicle.  Drive an XC90 or S90 hybrid and you'll do way way better on fuel than if it were powered by a normal V6 or V8.... and they do really pull hard when you step on it. You simply won't find a 400hp V6 AWD sedan that can get 29 mpg combined city/highway and also be capable of 71 mpg when you charge it up. I just drove a 400hp AWD Cadillac CT6 from Pittsburgh to NYC and was amazed that I was able to get 27mpg in just highway driving. My city mpg was much lower, low 20s. 

I know it's a minivan, but the Pacifica Hybrid is stupid fast and will still get amazing fuel economy.  It's criminal how fun they made the acceleration on a mini-van and yet 85 mpg-e is still possible. 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

despite the claims of "Superchargers" and "Extended batteries" and whatnot, you know unlike a modern ICE or Diesel, you so much as have the AC on during a hot summer day or the heat on during the middle of winter and actually drive it, your range is taking a hit!

My 2013 Buick takes about a 4 mpg hit when using the A/C.... it's enough that I've been considering having it looked at. My 2004 Honda is the same.  When I was in my Honda escaping the hurricane in Florida last September, not running the A/C was the difference between making it to the next gas station or not. As most gas stations were out of gas, range anxiety was a very very real thing for me. Hypermiling it, keeping the A/C off and driving only 60 to 65 mph, I was able to get my best range ever... 300 miles. normally I get only 250.

On 5/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

I'm still not sure where people lean on this forum, and I could very well be reviled by some and loved by others for this, but hell with it, just my 2 cents

We have people all over the political spectrum here, but more importantly we strive for facts rather than hyperbole.  It sounds like a bunch of your facts are out of date..... stick around and maybe we can help update them. I am the site owner and @William Maley  is the other primary editor/admin. We both are registered as members of the press and we get direct access to the manufacturers to test cars and write news. We've been doing this a long time so we do know our onions from mushrooms.

This site has been around since August of 2001 with many of the members you've been interacting with being here well over a decade.

We're not the largest site, we're not the busiest site, we don't have the staffing to be the fastest with the news, but one thing we can be is the smartest site with thoughtful, fact-based, intelligent, and respectful discussions.  If that's something you think you can be a part of, then put the ad-hominems away, pull up a chair, and enjoy. 

 

[ykX]

People keep bringing up that electricity is generated by coal.  However, in the US at the moment electricity generation breakdown is as follows:

32% - generated by Natural Gas

30% - generated by Coal

20% - generated by Nuclear Power

17% - generated by Renewable Sources 

(7% - Hydropower, 6% - Wind, 2% - Biomass, 1% - Solar, Geothermal - 1%)

1% - generated by Petroleum

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=electricity_in_the_united_states

If you look at the generation trend by source below, US was generating over 50% of electricity by coal in 2000 and now it is down to 30% and continue going lower.

[ykX]

One more thing @Zane Wylder.  I actually seriously considered getting a diesel as a daily a year or two ago.  But after carefully calculating cost of the vehicle, cost of diesel vs regular gas, fuel economy, maintenance etc. of the same sedan with diesel vs regular 4-cylinder I came to a conclusion that it simply not really worth it for me personally.  Which is unfortunate because I do like diesel vehicles.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

People keep bringing up that electricity is generated by coal.  However, in the US at the moment electricity generation breakdown is as follows:

32% - generated by Natural Gas

30% - generated by Coal

20% - generated by Nuclear Power

17% - generated by Renewable Sources 

(7% - Hydropower, 6% - Wind, 2% - Biomass, 1% - Solar, Geothermal - 1%)

1% - generated by Petroleum

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=electricity_in_the_united_states

If you look at the generation trend by source below, US was generating over 50% of electricity by coal in 2000 and now it is down to 30% and continue going lower.

Look at that green line rising and the black line plummeting... and that chart only goes to 2015, 2016 on tha chart was only a forecast. I bet the change is even more drastic 3 years later.  I know here in PA an already large wind farm was vastly expanded in the past few years. 

1 hour ago, ykX said:

One more thing @Zane Wylder.  I actually seriously considered getting a diesel as a daily a year or two ago.  But after carefully calculating cost of the vehicle, cost of diesel vs regular gas, fuel economy, maintenance etc. of the same sedan with diesel vs regular 4-cylinder I came to a conclusion that it simply not really worth it for me personally.  Which is unfortunate because I do like diesel vehicles.

That is the same equation being figured by drivers in the EU. Gasoline motors have gotten so efficient even without electrification that there is no longer a cost per mile advantage to get diesel. 

[G. David Felt]

[ocnblu]

Oh he's been "SPOKEN TO".  Also known as CENSORED, or VILIFIED for stating his perspective.  Sounds familiar.

[Drew Dowdell]

17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Oh he's been "SPOKEN TO".  Also known as CENSORED, or VILIFIED for stating his perspective.  Sounds familiar.

He was asked not to throw around ad hominems and to back up his claims.  Everyone is allowed their own opinion... even wrong opinions. No one is allowed their own facts.  Facts are facts whether you like them or not. 

In his case, some of his facts might have been true 10 years ago but technology has changed in the meantime. 

Rare is the non-hybrid V6 N/A, Turbo, or S/C, that can outrun the Volvo 4-cylinder PHEV.  At 4.5 seconds to 60, it's faster than a 540xi's 4.7s, and XTS V-Sport is 5.3s. The S90 PHEV only 0.1 seconds behind the Turbo V8 Audi S6's 4.4s.  Give an E400 4Matic a 1 second head start and the driver will be looking at Thor's Hammer lights rapidly approaching from behind till they both cross 60mph at the same time. A plain old E300 4Matic shows up 1.8 seconds late to the party.*

After that list, can you think of any AWD midsize or fullsize sedan with a 6-cylinder that would be faster?

And then after the full-size luxury sedan drag races are over and it's time to drive Granny to the Old Country Buffett, the S90 PHEV will also get 71mpg-e and be absolutely whisper quiet.

Diesel can't do that.  If you have a diesel big enough to keep up with an Audi V8, it's not going to be getting 71mpg. If you have a diesel capable of 71mpg, it's not going to keep up with even the E300.

As for the decrease in MPG without aero or driving, that is true for any vehicle.  Eco oriented hybrids will suffer more when driven hard more because they're under-powered than anything.... even my Encore drops mpg quickly if driven hard because..like the Pruis.. it is under-powered.

*only AWD vehicles cited in order to keep apples to apples.

Edit: I went and looked up the CT6-PHEV...  at 5.2 seconds, it's faster than the XTS-V Sport and the E400. 0.1 seconds behind the A6 3.0 S/C, Faster than the A8L V6, 740i, and S450.

[ocnblu]

Oh but there is no comparison in sound magic.  I would much much rather hear the XTS-V Sport under my foot than the Hoover CT6 Pee-HEV.

[Drew Dowdell]

Fine, but that wasn't what he was arguing about.  His argument was about diesel efficiency v. hybrid efficiency. 

And the Volvo S90 PHEV sounds really good... more like a 5-cylinder than a 4... not sure how they did that one. 

[ccap41]

On 5/18/2018 at 7:47 PM, Zane Wylder said:

I bring this up since really, it was blown out of proportion and should of been dealt with without such scandal.

First, "should have".

Second, the worst part to most people, I think, is the intent to deceive rather than the pollution itself. They intentionally marketed it as clean and knowingly put out something much dirtier than everybody else and the regulations allowed. They were literally scamming people into buying their vehicles claiming it did X Y and Z. 

[ccap41]

On 5/20/2018 at 11:43 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

My 2013 Buick takes about a 4 mpg hit when using the A/C

Seriously? That's pretty ridiculous. I don't think my Focus or Escape suffered even 1mpg. 

[G. David Felt]

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Seriously? That's pretty ridiculous. I don't think my Focus or Escape suffered even 1 mpg. 

I am seeing more electronic based A/C systems to off load the small engines as they do take a big hit in MPG when on the freeway under speed.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Seriously? That's pretty ridiculous. I don't think my Focus or Escape suffered even 1mpg. 

Yeah, that's why I think something is wrong.... however, A/C compressors take a certain amount of horsepower to run.  Sure they vary in size for the vehicle, but not by that much... so if it takes 3 hp to run, 3 horsepower is a bigger percentage of available power on my 138hp Encore than on a 250hp 2.0T of whatever make. 

But it's clear... A/C off and highway travel, the Encore will get 33mpg. A/C on, I'm lucky to get to 30.   The Honda is the same way though, but that A/C compressor is relatively new. I had it replaced a few years ago.  

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

First, "should have".

Second, the worst part to most people, I think, is the intent to deceive rather than the pollution itself. They intentionally marketed it as clean and knowingly put out something much dirtier than everybody else and the regulations allowed. They were literally scamming people into buying their vehicles claiming it did X Y and Z. 

Nail meet Head.

It was the marketing of the TDI that got people upset. People bought the diesels thinking they were another clean, high mpg alternative. So if you didn't like the looks of the Pruis (I can understand that one), but the Jetta looked good to you, the TDI was an option. 

[ccap41]

47 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yeah, that's why I think something is wrong.... however, A/C compressors take a certain amount of horsepower to run.  Sure they vary in size for the vehicle, but not by that much... so if it takes 3 hp to run, 3 horsepower is a bigger percentage of available power on my 138hp Encore than on a 250hp 2.0T of whatever make. 

But it's clear... A/C off and highway travel, the Encore will get 33mpg. A/C on, I'm lucky to get to 30.   The Honda is the same way though, but that A/C compressor is relatively new. I had it replaced a few years ago. 

that makes more sense with the older Honda just because it's older and technology has changed a lot but not the Encore.

10% is an awful big drop. 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

that makes more sense with the older Honda just because it's older and technology has changed a lot but not the Encore.

10% is an awful big drop. 

GM has always way over-sized their A/C compressors, and it is purely a guess that is what is going on here.  The Encore will freeze the nipples off Satan if I turn it low enough.  My Toronado is the same way, as was my old Caprice, and my Avalanche, and the Roadmaster I drove for a while.  My old Continental I don't recall because it had one of the best automatic climate control systems I've ever used even though it was from 1985.. set it to auto and 72 and it managed the rest.  I find I have to fiddle with modern automatic climate control too much to really be called automatic. 

The Honda? We run that pretty close to max cool just to stay comfortable. 

[Robert Hall]

At least you don't need to use the A/C 8-9 months a year like I used to do in that desert place...(and of course the A/C failed on more than 1 car while living there). 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Zane Wylder]

Wow, did I create a fire storm

 

Lemme take the time to actually read what was said and reply to it, though next time around, while I'll make my point, won't be as blunt