Mercedez Benz News Mercedes-AMG Possibly To Add Another Stand-Alone Model

[William Maley]

Mercedes-AMG has its eye on adding a third standalone model to join the GT Coupe/Cabriolet and GT 4-Door Coupe.

Speaking with Autocar, Mercedes-AMG's head Tobias Moers hinted about a new model. One model that can be crossed off the list is an SUV.

“There was a clear space in the market for the four-door GT, but we already have many excellent AMG SUV derivatives and it makes no sense to steal from them just so we can make our own car,” said Moers.

Autocar speculates the new model could be a competitor to the Porsche Boxster/Cayman. It would also be a perfect replacement for the slow-selling Mercedes-Benz SLC.

Source: Autocar

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[G. David Felt]

Yawn, nothing of importance here, back to sleep! ?

[Robert Hall]

I still think they should do AMG versions of the Metris and Sprinter.

[smk4565]

I bet a bi-turbo V6 would fit in a Metris or Sprinter, and the high performance van sector is rather under served.  I could see a Hellcat Promaster rival entering the space as well.

I don't know if they really need a Boxster/Cayman fighter, that is a pretty small segment, you have the new Supra/Z4 but those will be cheaper, the Corvette is in that mid-price sports car market too, and Jaguar F-type, but there isn't a ton of volume in the $50-80k sports car segment.  

[Frisky Dingo]

Well, if the AMG GT is anything to judge by, something in this segment could be a very serious rival to the Porsche twins, the Corvette, and lower level F Types. The days of AMG's being dull German muscle cars that are highway missiles only is long gone. They now build very credible threats to the established sports car/sedan set. I say go for it. The GT is so awesome some of its goodness should be available to others at a lower price point.

[ccap41]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I bet a bi-turbo V6 would fit in a Metris or Sprinter, and the high performance van sector is rather under served.  I could see a Hellcat Promaster rival entering the space as well.

I don't know if they really need a Boxster/Cayman fighter, that is a pretty small segment, you have the new Supra/Z4 but those will be cheaper, the Corvette is in that mid-price sports car market too, and Jaguar F-type, but there isn't a ton of volume in the $50-80k sports car segment.  

There sure as heck is if you include the Vettes. Then they could also possibly steal from some of the Mustang/Camaros that are in that price range as well. I don't see them really taking a lot of those sales but somebody will sit there and say, "what the heck am I spending 70k on a Ford/Chevy?" and then buy the AMG. 

Worse yet is the 50k Mustang GT and Camaro SS. They're great performance cars but they're also pretty steep for a GT and SS. 

[smk4565]

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There sure as heck is if you include the Vettes. Then they could also possibly steal from some of the Mustang/Camaros that are in that price range as well. I don't see them really taking a lot of those sales but somebody will sit there and say, "what the heck am I spending 70k on a Ford/Chevy?" and then buy the AMG. 

Worse yet is the 50k Mustang GT and Camaro SS. They're great performance cars but they're also pretty steep for a GT and SS. 

Good points, there could be enough demand and volume for it.

And from a cost standpoint, AMG is designing the chassis for the next SL, they can share that with generation 2 of the GT, and use a version for a Porsche 718 competitor.  That helps economies of scale, and they have all the powertrain stuff already done, so it wouldn’t cost that much they do this car.

[G. David Felt]

My gut tells me this will cannibalize sales of existing AMG models. They are splitting hairs of a limited group of enthusiast. AMG is a premium brand that sells to a set group of people and if they do this, I suspect you will see some models drop in sales and sold into this auto, but no real growth.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, dfelt said:

My gut tells me this will cannibalize sales of existing AMG models. They are splitting hairs of a limited group of enthusiast. AMG is a premium brand that sells to a set group of people and if they do this, I suspect you will see some models drop in sales and sold into this auto, but no real growth.

What models will it steal from? C63 is the only one in it's price range.. Maybe(hopefully) from the CLA45 but that seems like it's priced low enough to avoid a comparison to a 2 door dedicated sports coupe...and it's a small sedan... 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

What models will it steal from? C63 is the only one in it's price range.. Maybe(hopefully) from the CLA45 but that seems like it's priced low enough to avoid a comparison to a 2 door dedicated sports coupe...and it's a small sedan... 

Agree.  If AMG does an entry level sports car I would expect a $55k base price like the 718/Cayman.  That could use the forthcoming 2 liter turbo with rumored 330 hp as a base engine and the 430 hp inline six as the range topper at like $70k.  This would be a 2 seat hardtop I imagine.

An E-class buyer isn’t going buy a 2 seat sports car unless it is a second car, So really just the C43 and C63 sit in that price point and most of those are sedans and even the coupe has a back seat and isn’t a pure sports car.

I think AMG would get the sales off top end Camaro/Mustang, POW end Corvette, Porsche 718, Nissan GT-R owners that got priced out with the increases, the 57 people that bought an Alfa 4C, etc. And let’s face it, most car companies are fleeing sports cars and coupes altogether, so AMG may not have a lot of competition left in 2022 if this car arrives then.

 

[Frisky Dingo]

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

There sure as heck is if you include the Vettes. Then they could also possibly steal from some of the Mustang/Camaros that are in that price range as well. I don't see them really taking a lot of those sales but somebody will sit there and say, "what the heck am I spending 70k on a Ford/Chevy?" and then buy the AMG. 

Worse yet is the 50k Mustang GT and Camaro SS. They're great performance cars but they're also pretty steep for a GT and SS. 

 

 

Oh, let me tell you right now, if AMG made a bit smaller version of their GT with the new turbo-I6, that fell into the 50-75K range, I wouldn't even be stepping foot in a Porsche, Jaguar, or ANY Domestic dealership.

The only other car(s) that would possibly give me any pause would be a new Supra, and perhaps a 2 door Quadrifoglio.

And I know a lot of other buyers who would feel similarly.

[smk4565]

The SLC43 is $61,000, so I think they can get in that range with the inline six.  The SLC is too small, and it isn't really a pure sports car, it is more like a comfort cruiser convertible, but it isn't that comfortable.  The C-class convertible fills that role better.  They are for sure dropping SLC, so that does make room for a mini AMG GT.  

[oldshurst442]

AMG in a 50 000 dollar range? To compete and steal sales from Camaros and Mustangs?

 

 

I aint laughing because AMG is not capable...

Im laughing because AMG shouldnt even try to cheapen themselves to be in this niche to begin with...

But then again...they have cheapened themselves with the CLA...

You folk think AMG will improve its brand image by going after a lowly Ford and Chevy?

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't see them really taking a lot of those sales but somebody will sit there and say, "what the heck am I spending 70k on a Ford/Chevy?" and then buy the AMG. 

Worse yet is the 50k Mustang GT and Camaro SS. They're great performance cars but they're also pretty steep for a GT and SS. 

 

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

What models will it steal from? C63 is the only one in it's price range.. Maybe(hopefully) from the CLA45 but that seems like it's priced low enough to avoid a comparison to a 2 door dedicated sports coupe...and it's a small sedan... 

 

2 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The only other car(s) that would possibly give me any pause would be a new Supra, and perhaps a 2 door Quadrifoglio.

 

You guys are even contradicting yourselves trying to praise a 50 000 dollar AMG by mentioning Toyota, Ford, Chevy and the craptastic CLA itself by trying to elevate an AMG in that price range in the same breath!!!!

 I KNOW you guys know that the Mustang GT350 and the Camaro Z28 and any 1LE punches ABOVE their price point...

The GT and the SS are lowly regular V8 cars. NO! They are NOT expensive!  They DO have 400 plus horsepower and an equal amount of ft. lbs of torque.  460 for the Stang and 455 for the Camaro. The Stang is at 420 ft. lbs while the Camaro has 455...

Inline turbo V6s are awesome... problem is...The Mustang and the Camaro has a very loyal following...

Yes...there will be folk that WILL say Id rather have the German iron...

But you know WHO does that?

BADGE snobs! 

The CLA AMG HAS SOLD a few units here and there... 

BUT...if they DO find themselves in THIS market...you think that is a plus for AMG? 

Interesting...

I find that its a plus for the Camaro and Mustang...to have the mighty AMG go after lowly pony cars...

But then again, the Mustang and Camaro are NOT just pony cars anymore...

Yeah...AMG, the almighty engineering powerhouse doing battle with Chevrolets, Fords and Toyotas...

Remember though...AMG has their work cut out for them if they are gonna dominate these guys...

Its easy to put the AMG badge on anything and call it the day...

I dont thing AMG will do that...but...Ford and Chevy have REALLY upped their game in this market...at ANY price point...

AMG, to actually mean something...they have to BLOW the competition out of the water...and that they WILL NOT do!  NOT at that price point! 

The GT is $115 000.

Fast like hell!!!

Problem is that the Corvette that costs that much...$115 000...is a helluva lot faster. Sure...its got a helluva lot more power.

But THAT is the thing...ITS GOT MORE POWER, ITS FASTER all for the same price!

You are probably gonna go with the driving dynamic BS argument...The Vette drives  just phoquing fine!  Even in ZR1 beast mode...

Its a good daily driver, even with 750 horses under the hood and well, if one wants to track it, its does that awesomely well... 

Now...we are dealing with PONY cars!

If the Corvette was ALWAYS known for bang for your buck, the bread and butter reason for pony cars is all about the bang for your buck! Even at $50 000...

At 60 000, the ZL1 resides...

No amount of OVER EXAGGERATED and OVER BLOWN Gerrman engineering will EVER come close to what the Camaro ZL1 does at that price point! Not even AMG could match that. 

Besides...AMG is SUPPOSED to be elite...its supposed to be high end...its supposed to dominate...

Elite? If they cannot beat a Camaro...which they wont be able to...strike one...

High end?  We are talking about 50 000 dollars...Work trucks costs that much today! Pony cars cost that much....Strike two.

Dominate? To your eyes the GT dominates the Vette...NOT to MY eyes...Is that strike 3? To me it is. maybe not to you...but as soon as there is doubt by ONE car guy...it aint a good thing for AMG...

Down the road...this is gonna be their down fall...

The jokes are in even in this thread. Sprinter and Metris AMGs...

Sure...you could buy one over a Camaro if you want to...but dont try to be smug about your ride to a Camaro guy because he will laugh at you!

Its 2018 boys...its no longer the piss poor quality F-bodies of the disco era, smog choked Trans Ams that movies made them famous crossing state lines with bootlegged Coors beer. Or the 1980s/1990s Vanilla Ice 5.0s cruising Beachfront avenue...

Or the all motor and nothing else 4rth generation...

Its 2018...

And THAT in itself is a POSITIVE for Chevrolet and Ford when you guys think that AMG should try to steal away some of the thunder the American pony cars have got!!!  Trust me...it aint a good thing for AMG! 

Edited April 17, 2018 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

The ONLY reason why Im going on you guys is that for me...the GT is NOT all that.

Its fast...sure...its 115 000 dollars. Its great!  Bang for you buck?

The 911 starts at 90 000 and finishes off at 290 000 with a 700 horsepower, track beast! 

@ 90 000, it does what a 60 000 Camaro ZL1 does. Numbers wise.... A 911 is a 911...

The Vette is the Vette. It finishes at 115 000 with the new ZR1. It does exactly what it should do. 

Here comes a new comer and to me...AMG just decides to put themselves in the middle of the 911. UNDERCUT the 911 in price but offer something that is above an equivalent 911 at that price point. 

THAT to me is chickening out. 

THAT to me smells of CHEVROLET!  NOT the GREAT and AWESOME German engineering.

The 911 is EXPENSIVE!

DAMN RIGHT IT IS! Its a PORSCHE! 

Isnt  THAT what an AMG stands for?  Prestige. High end. Elite. Domination. That is what Porsche made itself out to be!  I thought AMG was the same...SILLY ME!!!

And then when Chevrolet EXCEEDS the GT just because America always says PHOQUE YOU to ELITISM, and the Corvette ALWAYS symbolized the middle finger to elitism, THAT is why I do NOT see the GT with rose coloured glasses. 

For me...the AMG GT SHOULD have been FASTER than a Porsche 911 GT RS2...the BEST Porsche has to offer...since the GT was supposed to best the 911 to begin with.

Price point is what you are gonna tell me?

THAT is a CHEVROLET selling point...NOT awesome German engineering selling points.

And then...the Yanks engineer a ZR1 and shytes on the  AMG GT at that very same price point. 

THAT is why I ADORE the 911. That is why I ADORE Porsche! 

Because Porsche IS arrogant. They SNEER at the Vette. They LAUGH at the Vette. And when the Vette tries to come close and maybe beat the 911, Porsche just comes out with a new version of the 911 that just spanks not only the Vette's ass, but cars costing 2-3  times the 911's  GT RS2's price point! 

So when I read AMG wants to add another car in its line-up, and then I read fanboys sneer at lesser cars than an AMG...and knowing those supposed lesser cars are great all around  TRUE SPORTS CAR performance cars, then I laugh and go on a tirade!  ONLY because those lesser cars ARE lesser cars....CHEVROLET, FORD, TOYOTA...

These are NOT AMGs...

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

I think that was really a lot of ranting and raving and I'm not sure what to take away from it.

 

If you think Camaros and Mustangs are even a blip on AMG's radar, you're nuts. This hypothetical car we speak of wouldn't be targeting those cars. It would just so happen to have some overlap with the top of their ranges. This would be a car aimed at the lesser F Types, Cayman/Boxster, upcoming Supra and Z4, and whatever else shows up in that playground in the near future.

[ccap41]

AMG has been in this price point for a long time, Olds. 

C63, C55, C36, C32... 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I think that was really a lot of ranting and raving and I'm not sure what to take away from it.

 

If you think Camaros and Mustangs are even a blip on AMG's radar, you're nuts. This hypothetical car we speak of wouldn't be targeting those cars. It would just so happen to have some overlap with the top of their ranges. This would be a car aimed at the lesser F Types, Cayman/Boxster, upcoming Supra and Z4, and whatever else shows up in that playground in the near future.

I'm glad somebody understood what I meant when I brought up the Mustang and Camaro. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by ccap41

[smk4565]

That was a lot of ranting but I don’t get how a sub $100k AMG only Model is a bad thing.  And you can spend $60k on a Camaro or Mustang and it will still have the same rental car interior as the one at the Orlando airport Hertz lot.

And it is about driving dynamics.  The 755 hp Corvette ZR1 is slower around the Nürburgring than the 577 hp AMG GT or the 520 hp 911 GT2 RS.  And the Porsche is like 15-20 seconds faster, it isn’t even close.  

I think to have a business case for an entry level AMG you start with a 330 hp turbo 4 around $55k and use the 430 hp turbo 6 around $65k.  And no V8 because you want to keep the car small to compete with Audi TT, Cayman, etc.

AMG could go the other way too and make something above the GT but below Project One, but they’ll sell like 500 a year so why bother.  I think Moers wants to attack Porsche at every segment and not Ferrari.

[balthazar]

That's Daimler for you; a steady pressure to move downmarket. And with the top badge this time.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

 The 755 hp Corvette ZR1 is slower around the Nürburgring than the 577 hp AMG GT or the 520 hp 911 GT2 RS.  And the Porsche is like 15-20 seconds faster, it isn’t even close. 

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, 

STOP making up stories to support your delusion! STICK TO THE FACTS!

In 2011, The 2012 Corvette ZR1 was 1.63 seconds slower than the faster auto, Porsche GT2 RS at Nurburgring. 7:18 for Porsche versus 7:19.63 for the Corvette. AMG GT was the 2012 model tested then and it performed 7:30 confirmed by the AMG Chairmen confirmed based on multiple sources.

That is the last time the Corvette ZR1 was tested at the track. 

As of 2017, official confirmed numbers for latest 2017 auto's unless dated stated:

• 6:47.25 - Porsche 911 GT2 RS
• 6:57 - Porsche 918 Spyder
• 7:01.3 - Dodge Viper ACR
• 7:10.92 - AMG GT R
• 7:13.9 Corvette C7 Z06
• 7:16.04 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE (2018)

[ccap41]

https://www.motor1.com/news/239334/corvette-zr1-porsche-gt3-nurburgring/

 

Not official but I believe this is what he was talking about. 

[G. David Felt]

21 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

https://www.motor1.com/news/239334/corvette-zr1-porsche-gt3-nurburgring/

 

Not official but I believe this is what he was talking about. 

Good to see that they are there, both Chevrolet and Porsche working to set new records, but as you stated and the story states, NOT OFFICIAL, so we have no Idea what really was being done.

It takes both faster and much slower laps to dial in an auto for an official time test run.

It would have been better if he had posted this story and said currently the 755hp Corvette is being worked on for a new official test run but observations show it does not beat the current AMG GT official time yet.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, 

STOP making up stories to support your delusion! STICK TO THE FACTS!

In 2011, The 2012 Corvette ZR1 was 1.63 seconds slower than the faster auto, Porsche GT2 RS at Nurburgring. 7:18 for Porsche versus 7:19.63 for the Corvette. AMG GT was the 2012 model tested then and it performed 7:30 confirmed by the AMG Chairmen confirmed based on multiple sources.

That is the last time the Corvette ZR1 was tested at the track. 

As of 2017, official confirmed numbers for latest 2017 auto's unless dated stated:

• 6:47.25 - Porsche 911 GT2 RS
• 6:57 - Porsche 918 Spyder
• 7:01.3 - Dodge Viper ACR
• 7:10.92 - AMG GT R
• 7:13.9 Corvette C7 Z06
• 7:16.04 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE (2018)

The 2019 ZR1 did it in 7:12, the GT3 RS which is less powerful than a GT2 RS did it in 6:56.

Motor1

All of this is meaningless since the AMG Project One is targeting 6:10 and then all this chasing lap times stuff ends since no one is getting down near 6 minutes with a road car.

[balthazar]

The '19 ZR1 beat both the Viper ACR and the Ford GT at VIR.
Extrapolated to Nurburing, that should put a good official run around 6:55-57.

Edited April 17, 2018 by balthazar

[smk4565]

VIR is a power circuit that favors straight line speed.  The Corvette Z06 beats the AMG GT R there, but is slower around the Nurburgring.  The Nurburgring is the great equalizer and exposes all flaws.

And every track this car goes on, the record will fall.  I can't wait.

 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

VIR is a power circuit that favors straight line speed.

So you're saying the Corvette doesn't handle.

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The 2019 ZR1 did it in 7:12, the GT3 RS which is less powerful than a GT2 RS did it in 6:56.

Motor1

All of this is meaningless since the AMG Project One is targeting 6:10 and then all this chasing lap times stuff ends since no one is getting down near 6 minutes with a road car.

Wrong Wrong Wrong again, as I stated, UNOFFICIAL LAP TIMES!

ESTIMATES of Lap Time. Right now Porsche and Chevrolet are dialing in the auto's. Taking a built car and then first run on the track always is higher than a dialed in car with an official lap run.

Even the story title says UNOFFICIAL!

I am sure your AMG Project One will do low Six until the AWD Corvette EV comes in and SPANKS IT!

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

VIR is a power circuit that favors straight line speed.  The Corvette Z06 beats the AMG GT R there, but is slower around the Nurburgring.  The Nurburgring is the great equalizer and exposes all flaws.

And every track this car goes on, the record will fall.  I can't wait.

 

Yup the records will fall with this until the AWD EV Corvette comes out, then again AMG will FALL!

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So you're saying the Corvette doesn't handle.

No, I am just saying tracks like Willow Springs and VIR favor high horsepower straight line ability cars.  The Corvette does well on both, on the tracks less powerful cars post quicker times than the Corvette.  The E63 is the fastest sedan ever around VIR, but it isn't the fastest sedan on the Nurburgring for the same reason.  Lots of straight line power but it is a big sedan to get through corners quicker than an M3 or Guilia or something.

[smk4565]

24 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup the records will fall with this until the AWD EV Corvette comes out, then again AMG will FALL!

Not going to happen.  The ZR1 is about 600 lbs heavier than the AMG and that is before you putt batteries and electric motors in.  The Bolt's battery pack is 960 lbs, even with 1/3 of it you are talking 320 lbs of battery.  They would need to take 1,000 lbs of weight out of a current Corvette to get the weight in check before adding 

Secondly, the Corvette has road car suspension (finally dumping the leaf springs for coils in the mid-engine model), not Formula 1 car suspension.  And the AMG can generate 500 lbs more downforce than a 2019 Corvette ZR1with the huge rear wing.   And the AMG has active aero and DRS because it doesn't have a fixed rear wing.

Thirdly, even with the new 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 with turbos the horsepower is about the same as the AMG 1.6 liter V6.      And the Bolt's EV motor spins at a max 8,810 rpm, the AMG electric motor spins at 50,000 rpm, so Chevy has some EV motor work to do.

[balthazar]

Here's your 'straight line ability' road course :

 

[ocnblu]

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

putt batteries

I love this phrase about golf carts.

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Thirdly, even with the new 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8

I never heard it was supposed to be a flat plane crank... 

[Robert Hall]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 

Thirdly, even with the new 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 with turbos the horsepower is about the same as the AMG 1.6 liter V6.      And the Bolt's EV motor spins at a max 8,810 rpm, the AMG electric motor spins at 50,000 rpm, so Chevy has some EV motor work to do.

 The 2019 Z-R1 has a 6.2L supercharged pushrod V8, WTF are you going on about regarding a 5.5 DOHC V8?? 

[Frisky Dingo]

Man, bench racing is fun. ?

[smk4565]

Car and Driver claims the mid engine Corvette will have a 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 that revs to 9,000 rpm with 600 hp as an option.  They do want to copy a Ferrari 488 it seems.

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Car and Driver claims the mid engine Corvette will have a 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 that revs to 9,000 rpm with 600 hp as an option.  They do want to copy a Ferrari 488 it seems.

Just speculation at this point...I suspect the mid engine Corvette will get cancelled like every mid engined Corvette concept in the past has..

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Just speculation at this point...I suspect the mid engine Corvette will get cancelled like every mid engined Corvette concept in the past has..

Could be, I think they will build it but the cost will be high and sales will be low and it will be a one and done.

[balthazar]

Numerous sources closer to the program than C&D have stated the 5.5L is NOT slated for the next Corvette, despite it being using in race car versions.