GM Interns Return

[regfootball]

"The only huge advantage RWD has (imo) is the ability to do donuts and such" well, that was the whole 'smoky burnouts' thing I've been harping about. Or as they used to say in high school, 'whipping shitties'. Oh sure, that's fun when you're like 17, but when you are older and making big car payments and using your car as TRANSPORTATION, 'whipping shitties' and 'smoky burnouts' tends to be low priority and rather juvenile IMHO. I just don't see a car company building a foundation for the long haul based upon whether they make it a priority for a new RWD pony car that folks can spend time whipping shitties with. As a niche supplemental product, sure. For as many folks out there who think RWD is neutral (which I do feel is true, BTW), the realtive tail happiness of RWD cars is another strike against them with the fickle and unskilled general public.

[razoredge]

RWD is neutrality, it is balanced, and it is poised. Those that are trying to push that RWD is only advantageous in extreme handling; I'm really not sure where you're coming from with that. RWD is just more neutral and balaned. Any FWD car I get into feels more top-heavy, less easy to point and go, and has more body roll. The car that has had the best compromise between handling and ride quality I've ever driven has been RWD.

[post="2035"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Im comming from 31 years of driving both and many types of cars as well as much heavy truck and equipement driving. Not trying to sound special by that just useing it in hopes to prove some kind of experience behind the wheel that allows me to honestly compare and not use the blind bias propaganda that is always shown with the FWD sucks group. I learned on RWD, I drove like an idiot on RWD, some of which was in pretty decent cars. Im sure few of them compare as well with modern RWD's but my Alpine was pretty much a race prepared suspension one 69 Camaro, one 75 Camaro, and some totally insane 3/4 ton 4X4 moments. The rest would be more American family and luxury cars. With that Ill say FWD took a few minutes to get a feel of but its not "going off the road - Dead" by any means. Our LSS is way too soft but even so its sticks and you can even power out some, which is the fault of FWD - not being able to power out as hard as RWD. FWD you must have neutral pedal - no power and no hold back at corner or it will push. Ive never drivin a GTP but I bet they feel pretty good.

Sure we need and you need and some people need RWD again but FWD hasnt been worth crying about in my experiance. Thats all Im trying to say. That all.

:)

[Robert Hall]

My preference is RWD for luxury and performance cars and 4WD for SUVs...leave FWD for the mass-market and rental cars. I spent my early years driving in vile Midwestern winters with RWD and snow tires..I had no need for FWD. I'll stick with a BMW (or similar) with RWD and a manual transmission for daily driving in good weather and a 4WD SUV for winter driving (as long as I'm in Colorado--my next move will be to where there is no snow).

[CaddyXLR-V]

I drive a 98 GTP, and while I feel its handling is very good, it would still be better if it was RWD.

[razoredge]

I drive a 98 GTP, and while I feel its handling is very good, it would still be better if it was RWD.

[post="2075"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thank You - Thats what Ive been talking about. RWD only has FWD by a few decimal points in the lateral G factor. Very few people ever push a car to its max lateral at any kind of speed. Especially the largest percentage of the driving population ;)

Up here in the North we just cant have all those people in rush hour traffic out there in RWD cars on a snowy morning. We have 5 questionable months. Its hilly, so on and so forth.

[Robert Hall]

Thank You - Thats what Ive been talking about. RWD only has FWD by a few decimal points in the lateral G factor. Very few people ever push a car to its max lateral at any kind of speed. Especially the largest percentage of the driving population  ;)

Up here in the North we just cant have all those people in rush hour traffic out there in RWD cars on a snowy morning. We have 5 questionable months. Its hilly, so on and so forth.

[post="2180"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nahh, they would be fine if they knew how to drive and used snow tires... :) I agree, though, FWD is better for the unskilled masses (driver's ed is a joke in the US)...too many drivers have no idea how to properly drive in foul weather. I used snow tires when I drove in nasty, hilly Ohio winters....makes a big difference.

We have some huge blizzards here in Colorado and the occasional nasty morning commute Oct through April (the biggest snows are in March and April usually). I either avoid going out (work from home) on really bad days or creep along in the SUV in 4WD... (though I inevitably get caught in a blizzard on a Sunday on I-70 coming back from the mountains at least once a year)... Edited August 23, 2005 by moltar

[red]

As for RWD vs. FWD, I prefer RWD. Why? I like the handling, steering feel, and "acceleration feel" if there is such as thing. I really don't like the FWD feel - the drive wheels are youre turn wheels etc. I also don't like the torque steer...I nearly wrecked my buddy's new Maxima because of it! However, FWD has its pluses and a VERY large target market, so stick with it. Just leave a few rear-drivers for us enthusiasts ;-)

[RJB]

Corporate excess as well as being out of touch with what is really going on in the trenches. That's my opinion from the inside and the outside. By the outside I mean anyone that has come to GM for a meeting sees nothing but excess. I have friends that work in the supplier industry and they are always saying to me what is going on with people just sitting around outside at the VEC building(new 6 story building in Warren) in the middle of the afternoon? Aren't they supposed to be working? They run into guys making well over $100,000 a year and drive company cars, have gas cards, cell phones and are always late to business meetings and are unprepared. But yet we are understaffed and overworked in my department. So what do they do? Let's layoff more people! They need to get in touch with us and communicate. We are trying to get things done without the manpower we need. Sorry you physically can't do it when you are 4 people short on each shift!! Projects don't get done on time safely, effectively, and in the way they want your test data to turn out, if you can't deliver on the things I just mentioned. Get rid of the cushiness at the top and give something to the little guys who put in the endless hours in the test labs! Whew!!!! I'm done.

[razoredge]

Corporate excess as well as being out of touch with what is really going on in the trenches. That's my opinion from the inside and the outside. By the outside I mean anyone that has come to GM for a meeting sees nothing but excess. I have friends that work in the supplier industry and they are always saying to me what is going on with people just sitting around outside at the VEC building(new 6 story building in Warren) in the middle of the afternoon? Aren't they supposed to be working? They run into guys making well over $100,000 a year and drive company cars, have gas cards, cell phones and are always late to business meetings and are unprepared. But yet we are understaffed and overworked in my department. So what do they do? Let's layoff more people!  They need to get in touch with us and communicate. We are trying to get things done without the manpower we need. Sorry you physically can't do it when you are 4 people short on each shift!! Projects don't get done on time safely, effectively, and in the way they want your test data to turn out, if you can't deliver on the things I just mentioned. Get rid of the cushiness at the top and give something to the little guys who put in the endless hours in the test labs! Whew!!!! I'm done.

[post="2320"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT :)

[razoredge]

Nahh, they would be fine if they knew how to drive and used snow tires... :) I agree, though, FWD is better for the unskilled masses (driver's ed is a joke in the US)...too many drivers have no idea how to properly drive in foul weather. I used snow tires when I drove in nasty, hilly Ohio winters....makes a big difference.

We have some huge blizzards here in Colorado and the occasional nasty morning commute Oct through April (the biggest snows are in March and April usually). I either avoid going out (work from home) on really bad days or creep along in the SUV in 4WD...  (though I inevitably get caught in a blizzard on a Sunday on I-70 coming back from the mountains at least once a year)...

[post="2182"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No they wouldnt be fine and they were not fine 20 years ago when the roads were loaded with RWD cars. FWD cars were the best thing that ever happened around here the difference is day and night. RWD = if theres any resistance, just sit there and spin, FWD = get in and go.

Most of the posts made here by RWD crowd are so full of bias propaganda its crazy. In fact the stuff they say about FWD proves they are the ones that need driving lessons. "Almost wreaking because of torque steer" :unsure: - must be one of dem thar skilled drivers :rolleyes: Was probably one of those twin turbo 500 godzillian horse power "Datsun" engines :P or just plain Jap junk ;)

[Drew Dowdell]

"Almost wreaking because of torque steer"  :unsure: - must be one of dem thar skilled drivers  :rolleyes: Was probably one of those twin turbo 500 godzillian horse power "Datsun" engines  :P or just plain Jap junk  ;)

[post="2345"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

LOL

[Drew Dowdell]

I have both RWD <CTS>, and FWD <Passat>. Generally, I like the RWD better, but I don't find the FWD bad at all. There is a tiny amount of front wheel wobble under hard acceleration in the Passat. I put snow tires on both cars and they seem to handle equally as well in the snow. Admittedly, the CTS has all sorts of electronic wizardry to keep me on the road, snow mode, stabillatrack, etc.

[rkmdogs]

All the above shows that opinions are like assholes--- everybody has one! What does amaze me is some of the statements made by people who display their ignorance of the laws of physics. To them, physics is just somethin' you take for bowel regularity! I haven't heard any opinion backed up by any engineering knowledge of the subject. Maybe that's why the Pacific rim boys are kickin' our ass! Those of you who use as examples cars built decades ago, do not reflect the current state of the art in traction technology, just poor judgement! You don't compare apples to oranges, unless you say they're just fruit! I haven't heard from anyone who has attended one of the professional driving schools, or reported an opinion from a professional performance drivers as to their choice. The point is, yes there is a place for both forms, rather many forms of drivetrain application, depending on what you want to do, and how much you are willing to pay for it. In this country a mindset has developed that everything we do has to be made "safer". Life itself is a big risk. Getting out of bed each morning is a big risk. We need to face up to that. It is called, REALITY!!

[2005 Tahoe]

I almost forgot. This is off the current discussion of FWD RWD. Let me preface this by saying that I am not an engineer. :) Just someone who has been around cars, mechanics, and entire family loves / drives some GM product, and been a GM fan, myself since I can remember. Doorhandles! My pet peeve... Flimsy feeling doorhandles. I know it may sound silly, but... What is the first and maybe only exterior part of a car that you interact with? The doorhandle. When they feel like they are going to fall off the door, you worry about the quality of the car itself. It may not have anything to do with the quality, but give me a solid doorhandle any day. Good ones: G6 (better than the Mercedes C230 - try it out!) Bonneville Tahoe, Yukon, etc Any of the Cadillacs Plasticky doorhandles: Lacrosse H3 Try them out for yourself! Something to ponder at any rate and doesn't seem like it would add alot of cost to a vehicle.

[mtdavid]

How about An AWD system that lets you choose the distribuiton of power, so you can have a RWD setup when you want and AWD when you need it, no more FWD unless you want it. Maybe a good idea for an Episilon II Cadillac and an end to the argument.

[trevormac98]

C&G: Its great that everyone keeps requesting RWD vehicles. But what are the top selling cars today? The Toyota Camry. Honda Accord, and the Chevrolet Impala. All FWD, all 4 dours, all built for families. GM is not going to make the bread and butter in RWD but in family passenger vehicles. A soccer mom does not need a 400 HP RWD vehicle. She needs a practical FWD vehicle that will give great control in all weather conditions. She does not care about Physics either or Positron. Dealerships will push her buy the practical vehicle, and that my friends is what GM needs to focus on more. I am sure RWD's are coming soon, but we need to have the #1 selling car now, and that is not going to be a RWD, because we all know, but will not admit it (for those of us with families) that the wife has the final say when it comes to getting a Family Vehicle, because she uses it the most. So C&G, lets get off the RWD topic for awhile, because we can all agree we need it, but what about leading the industry overall in sales? Thank You Trevor

[rkmdogs]

Yeah Trevor, But what options do those mainstream buyers have? None, unless they go upscale! We need choices, not echoes!

[Northstar]

Here's what I'd do if I was out to make a car that would take the sales lead from the Camry: Model: Chevy Malibu Platform: Epsilon II with FWD standard, AWD optional. Engines/Transmissions: 2.4L Ecotec standard, 3.6L HF V6 optional, hybrid model with 2.4 mated to electric motor. 5- or 6-speed manual as a no-cost option (5-speed for 2.4, 6-speed for 3.6), 6-speed automatic standard. Size: I'd make it a couple inches bigger than the Camry and those couple of inches would go straight to interior room. Interior: obviously I'd use really high quality materials and have some contrasting colors to give the interior a little character. If I wanted to sell 450k units/year of this vehicle, then I'd buy the highest quality materials available to still make a profit at that high of volume (meaning I could probably buy pretty good materials if I sold that many). If I were GM I wouldn't really care if I made a huge profit; pulling even on cars is pretty good for GM, and I'd be more focused on taking sales from the Camcord by spending a lot on development and materials. Bodystyles: I'd probably want a sedan, coupe, and wagon, but since Pontiac already has the G6 coupe there would be overlap. Therefore, I'd probably just go with the sedan and wagon. Styling: It sounds like the next Malibu is a real looker, and any car that looks good and is executed well should sell. Just because Camcord buyers are used to bland styling doesn't mean they won't buy something that is distinctive as long as it is good looking. Pricing: I'd try to undercut comparable Camcord models by $1500-2000 but I'd still leave myself some room to give the dealer some room to negotiate to get the deal done. Safety: I'd probably have Stabilitrak standard on V6 models and optional on I4 models, although I don't really know how much it costs so I'd have to know that before making a final decesion. I'd have 8 air bags standard. The Sonata looks like a pretty good effort actually, though not exactly what I'd be looking for. I wouldn't say it's as good looking as I would want the next Malibu to be, but it's better than the Camcord, has a big interior, undercuts the Camcord in price by quite a bit, offers pretty good engines, it only comes in a sedan currently, but I believe a coupe is on the way; the only thing it really misses is the optional AWD. I also don't care much for the interior design, but I haven't sat in one so maybe it works when you're sitting in it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

C&G:

Its great that everyone keeps requesting RWD vehicles.  But what are the top selling cars today?  The Toyota Camry. Honda Accord, and the Chevrolet Impala.  All FWD, all 4 dours, all built for families.  GM is not going to make the bread and butter in RWD but in family passenger vehicles.  A soccer mom does not need a 400 HP RWD vehicle.  She needs a practical FWD vehicle that will give great control in all weather conditions.  She does not care about Physics either or Positron.  Dealerships will push her buy the practical vehicle, and that my friends is what GM needs to focus on more.  I am sure RWD's are coming soon, but we need to have the #1 selling car now, and that is not going to be a RWD, because we all know, but will not admit it (for those of us with families) that the wife has the final say when it comes to getting a Family Vehicle, because she uses it the most. 

So C&G, lets get off the RWD topic for awhile, because we can all agree we need it, but what about leading the industry overall in sales? 

Thank You

Trevor

[post="2990"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No one is proposing to kill all of GMs FWD vehicles. But there are still more sales for GM to get by adding RWD vehicles to their lineup.

[rkmdogs]

Nice thoughts Northstar, But a little info for future dreams. Rule of thumb: The smaller the engine, in outputs(horsepower, torque) the more gears you need to produce acceptable performance.i.e., the 4 should have the 6-speed, the v-6 only needs the 5 speed. This is how truckers can move such HUGE weights, with relatively small engines -- lotsa gears! But dragsters, with mega horsepower usually only have 2gears, and Jim Hall's Chapparal race cars did the deed with Powerglide 2-speed automatics!

[BrewSwillis]

my next door neighbor across the street from me, who works for Dodge (not entirely sure in what capacity but its for Dodge, not a dealer), was commenting to me the other day about how it was a big mistake for Dodge to only offer the charger with RWD and also about the under porduction of AWD Magnums.  And he flat out stated how poor the RWD Magnum and Charger are in snow, do not believe any of the hype about them being any good with the electronic systems.  He said the trac control and stuff hardly does much to help.  He knows all the Dodge product well and has first hand knowledge with all of it.

[post="870"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Damn, I'm kinda late on this one.....but here he goes with his anti-RWD crusade again. It's like he has stock in FWD or something. :rolleyes:

I have a 2005 Chrysler 300 Touring, and it's awesome in the snow and slick conditions. The ESP is simply amazing. You can't spin the car out if you tried......and believe me, I tried. Plus, it's fun doing donuts when you turn it off!

Just wanted to respond so people didn't just hear one side of the story. I guess the hundreds of 300's and Magnums that I've seen in Northern Ohio and SE Michigan are all gonna be put up in garages for the winter?? I don't think so.

[tmp]

well, as far as FWD versus RWD, I'm afraid that you'll have to build RWD if only to appease the automotive press. They are convinced (even though they are about as close to the average driver as Paris Hilton is to the average American) that FWD is the kiss of death: apparently the din of these people is enough to drown out the fact that for most people, their car could be run by voodoo and they wouldn't care if it got them from point A to point B with some alacrity in most weather conditions. As for anything else, my dear intern, here's what I care about. I'd like the interior to look nice, and have some soft-touch surfaces. I would like those surfaces not to disintigrate in a year, like the ones on my friends VW- just make your plastics look not so obviously plastic. I'd like a decent ride, decent handling, and decent gas mileage. Unlike most European cars, I'd not like to find that this is accomplished by having $200 tune-ups and $500 dollar tires. Immediately cancel focus groups. Focus groups come up with the remake of "The Stepford Wives" Focus groups came up with the last Impala. Even the worst of the Bangle'd BMW's were more interesting than the last Impala. In short, Hire me. Edited August 25, 2005 by tmp

[2b2]

RJB, NICE post re: Corporate excess etc.

Trevor,
Even tho I've complained about "one dimensional images", I'm starting to think that all the brands (except Cadillac, they're fine) need a 'signature' car at the moment (Not the same as a 'Flagship') to embody what each brand is going to be.

Pontiac - G6-size Rwd (sorry*) sport sedan AND (same platform, completely different body and name... ?Trans-Am?) coupe.
Buick - youthful luxury... Riviera (ie fairly large) coupe-cabriolet hard'vert?
Chevrolet - well from what we've heard, maybe the next Malibu will do it BUT maybe it should be something smaller? Like a completely redesigned Cobalt SEDAN. Ford has nothing in that 180" size (yet). A model that crams CamCord room/features into a car this size, that doesn't look like a coupe's afterthought, could re-arrange the best-sellers list.
Saturn & Saab - I have no idea... other than someone better define them soon. Each new model/concept makes them more confusing.

ps I guess it's possible that GM is trying to do this already. But this uncertainty means they aren't there yet.


* although enthusiasts make up a small per cent of buyers, they influence many buyers.

[Morrinn]

Trallala Just wanted to add my own tow cents to this fwd vs rwd discussion. First of all, I live in Iceland so I have a *bit* of first hand experience when it comes to driving in snowy and icy conditions, and it never ceases to amaze me how people can go on and on about how infinitely superior fwd cars are to rwd ones when it comes to winter driving. The simple fact is of course: if icy roads aren't covered with either sand or salt, BOTH rwd and fwd cars are complete and utter crap! :blink: Oh yes. But add nailed winter tires to the equation (as any sane driver living in snowy regions should), and both types become very driveable and then some (I'm referring to modern cars of course, my 25yo Oldsmobile 98 is pretty much unuseable in winter either way). When it comes to winter driving, fwd has the edge - there's no disputing that - but since both types are close to useless when ill-equipped but drive fine when properly equipped it's almost a mute point... more nitpicking than anything else. I have nothing against fwd, prefer rwd just for the plain fun of powersliding, not for any sensible reason :rolleyes: but let this winter driving argument go already, it's been old for quite a while.

[regfootball]

Trallala

Just wanted to add my own tow cents to this fwd vs rwd discussion.
First of all, I live in Iceland so I have a *bit* of first hand experience when it comes to driving in snowy and icy conditions, and it never ceases to amaze me how people can go on and on about how infinitely superior fwd cars are to rwd ones when it comes to winter driving.

The simple fact is of course: if icy roads aren't covered with either sand or salt, BOTH rwd and fwd cars are complete and utter crap!  :blink:  Oh yes.
But add nailed winter tires to the equation (as any sane driver living in snowy regions should), and both types become very driveable and then some (I'm referring to modern cars of course, my 25yo Oldsmobile 98 is pretty much unuseable in winter either way).

When it comes to winter driving, fwd has the edge - there's no disputing that - but since both types are close to useless when ill-equipped but drive fine when properly equipped it's almost a mute point... more nitpicking than anything else.

I have nothing against fwd, prefer rwd just for the plain fun of powersliding, not for any sensible reason  :rolleyes: but let this winter driving argument go already, it's been old for quite a while.

[post="4014"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, most folks in the USA don't want the hassle of seasonal tire changes, which is why all season tires are so popular. And so, folks here just want to drive what they own, without changing their tires. Myself, I would love to have winter tire packages for all my vehicles, but my budget doesn't allow it.

FWD with all seasons is popular because its easy and versatile.

[regfootball]

well, as far as FWD versus RWD, I'm afraid that you'll have to build RWD if only to appease the automotive press.  They are convinced (even though they are about as close to the average driver as Paris Hilton is to the average American) that FWD is the kiss of death: apparently the din of these people is enough to drown out the fact that for most people, their car could be run by voodoo and they wouldn't care if it got them from point A to point B with some alacrity in most weather conditions.

As for anything else, my dear intern, here's what I care about.  I'd like the interior to look nice, and have some soft-touch surfaces.  I would like those surfaces not to disintigrate in a year, like the ones on my friends VW- just make your plastics look not so obviously plastic.  I'd like a decent ride, decent handling, and decent gas mileage.  Unlike most European cars, I'd not like to find that this is accomplished by having $200 tune-ups and $500 dollar tires.

Immediately cancel focus groups. Focus groups come up with the remake of "The Stepford Wives"  Focus groups came  up with the last Impala.  Even the worst of the Bangle'd BMW's were more interesting than the last Impala.

In short, Hire me.

[post="3474"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the funny thing is that the automotive press were the ones who endlessly harped the greatness of Accords and Camrys and made them out to the be ultimate driving solution not less than 10 years ago. The press just goes in cycles, looking for the next flavor of the month to write about. Its like the fashion industry. Hey, are jeans that don't even come half way up a girls' hip in fahsion right now? Sure, but what will be in fashion in 3 years? Edited August 26, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Damn, I'm kinda late on this one.....but here he goes with his anti-RWD crusade again.  It's like he has stock in FWD or something.  :rolleyes:

I have a 2005 Chrysler 300 Touring, and it's awesome in the snow and slick conditions.  The ESP is simply amazing.  You can't spin the car out if you tried......and believe me, I tried.  Plus, it's fun doing donuts when you turn it off!

Just wanted to respond so people didn't just hear one side of the story.  I guess the hundreds of 300's and Magnums that I've seen in Northern Ohio and SE Michigan are all gonna be put up in garages for the winter??  I don't think so.

[post="3210"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And my neighbor, who works for Dodge corporation himself, says the 300's and Magnums all suck in snow, regardless of the hype.

Tomato, tomato. I'm not putting down 30 grand on the CHANCE any of that electro garbage works. I already tried that on my Tbird, the whole trac control thing. Sure the newer systems are improved a lot. But ESP does not solve the weight distribution issue. Too many of the RWD cars I've had have had issues in winter. Stories I hear from others are no different. I'm not putting faith in a long wheelbase, nose heavy, rear wheel drive car to be trustworthy in a MN winter. I love shitties in the snow as much as anyone, but I don't want what else comes with it.

brew, why don't you tell us if you're riding your stock all seasons in winter........ Edited August 26, 2005 by regfootball

[knightfan26917]

brew, why don't you tell us if you're riding your stock all seasons in winter........

Yeah, reg, I know you directed that Q to brew, but figured I'd chime in for reference. For the last 2 winters, I've driven my RWD 1987 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS in the winter with the stock all-season tires ... no change to winter tires ... and have had no problems.


Cort, "Mr Road Trip" / soon2be ex-"Mr MC", 31swm/pig valve/pacer
MCfamily.models.HO.chdQB = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
MC Guide = http://www.chevyasylum.com/mcspotter/main.html
IL & area MCs = http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/imcog/
MC's future = http://www.projectmonte.com/petition/
"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[razoredge]

Its the I get around fine with RWD, I like to power slide, I like to smoke the tires pople that cant let it go. I live in mountainous/with roads on them, Y State and RWD is useless in the snow, Iceland must be flat. Once again its simple, very , very simple, we cant have thousands of people out on the highways in rush hour traffic in RWD cars on snowy days - Simple Now hows abouts all you "I get by" with RWD people , let it go. We cant have thousands of people out there "getting by". We cant all afford AWD and its extra mechanical upkeep.

[Guest WestPalmHarry]

Its the I get around fine with RWD, I like to power slide, I like to smoke the tires pople that cant let it go. I live in mountainous/with roads on them, Y State and RWD is useless in the snow, Iceland must be flat.

Once again its simple, very , very simple, we cant have thousands of people out on the highways in rush hour traffic in RWD cars on snowy days - Simple

Now hows abouts all you "I get by" with RWD people , let it go. We cant have thousands of people out there "getting by". We cant all afford AWD and its extra mechanical upkeep.

[post="4329"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So, now the Accord sedan has the V-6 6-speed option. And a TON of extra safety features at a reasonable price. Malibu and G6 are history. Fusion and Milan too.

[regfootball]

Once again its simple, very , very simple, we cant have thousands of people out on the highways in rush hour traffic in RWD cars on snowy days - Simple

[post="4329"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

thank you. now matter how qualified and thoughtful many of us on C&G might be about keeping RWD on track, think about the other 99% and their attention and skill level. We'd all be toast in no time.

[regfootball]

So, now the Accord sedan has the V-6 6-speed option.  And a TON of extra safety features at a reasonable price.  Malibu and G6 are history.  Fusion and Milan too.

[post="4340"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

is that west palm harry or west hairy palm? ;) :blink:

Wow, the accord 6 speed option int the sedan raises my eyebrows A LOT! Honda has multiairbags and ABS etc. STANDARD across the board. Plus, its got a nice OHC motor. I had better research this! Now i don't have to laugh out loud when i see GTP G6's with 30,000 stickers just to be able to get a manual transmission. I don't mind the SE-R altima but am sick of its looks and wary of Nissan quality, aside from the fabulous motor. I'll be interested to see if base maximas will still be able to get 6 speeds.

[Guest WestPalmHarry]

I'm blonde and blue. We don't tend to be hairy. Your wifey might be in trouble.

[CaddyXLR-V]

CA has a huge population and doesnt snow, Arizona is growing, Texas has a huge population, Florida, all these states dont get snow. Cant they make some RWD cars for us? It might actually help GMs image problem in CA to actually get some sport sedans out there.

[Robert Hall]

CA has a huge population and doesnt snow, Arizona is growing, Texas has a huge population, Florida, all these states dont get snow. Cant they make some RWD cars for us? It might actually help GMs image problem in CA to actually get some sport sedans out there.

[post="4417"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It does snow in the mountains in AZ and CA.. :) I know what you mean, though... I live in Colorado and winters are very mild (some snow in the high country, but limited nasty weather here in Denver). The US population growth has been shifting to the South and West for quite a while now. GM is still predominantly playing to the Midwest, IMHO--not where the growth is happening...


The big league 'premium' brands all are predominantly RWD (Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, MB, Jaguar), but other than Chrysler's LXes, the old Ford Panther-platform cars, some Cadillacs, the GTO, and the Mustang, the domestics have nothing to choose from in RWD today for less than $40k...unfortunate... Edited August 26, 2005 by moltar

[BrewSwillis]

And my neighbor, who works for Dodge corporation himself, says the 300's and Magnums all suck in snow, regardless of the hype.

Tomato, tomato.  I'm not putting down 30 grand on the CHANCE any of that electro garbage works.  I already tried that on my Tbird, the whole trac control thing.  Sure the newer systems are improved a lot.  But ESP does not solve the weight distribution issue.  Too many of the RWD cars I've had have had issues in winter.  Stories I hear from others are no different.  I'm not putting faith in a long wheelbase, nose heavy, rear wheel drive car to be trustworthy in a MN winter.  I love shitties in the snow as much as anyone, but I don't want what else comes with it.

brew, why don't you tell us if you're riding your stock all seasons in winter........

[post="4111"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Like most people, I don't have the cash to spend on a winter tire package.......I spend all of my money paying for the car! :lol:

The V6 version of the 300 has a 53/47 weight distribution. Sure it's a little easier to just "stomp on it" in the snow with a FWD, but the traction control in the 300 makes it possible to just "stomp on it" too, and let the computer do the job. I think there is too much stress placed on starting traction in the snow. I think the most dangerous difference between FWD and RWD is loosing control or spinning out. The ESP system on the 300/Magnum/Charger/Grand Cherokee/Commander makes spinning out almost impossible.......unless if you are going like 60 mph and cut the wheel.....but then a FWD could spin out then too. But going around turns and entering entrance ramps, it is impossible to spin out. I have tried it many times. Alot of times I'll turn off ESP in the snow, because I want to slide a little around slow corners......and the ESP will simply not let you do it.

Yes, the ESP could go bad some day.....but that's the chance you take on new technology. As long as it works while I own it.

For 3 months a year, I will let the ESP nanny help me through the winter, and the other 9 months, I get to enjoy a well balanced RWD vehicle!

[Matt276]

My suggestion to GM regarding the GM card. First, I'd like to say that MSRP are too high. To me, purchasing a GM car makes sense cause I have the maximum points to put down ( 1500$ on a Cobalt or Malibu) I'm not sure if I had no point, that I would buy a GM for my next car. It's simply not competitive compare other cars on the market. I wonder if you should not drop the card and lower all the MSRP by 1000$. It would be more appealing to non-GM card owner. This spring, my brother bought a Matrix cause for the same equipment, it was 1500$ less than a Vibe. At equal price, he would have gone with the Vibe and he's not interested to get the GM card, it could have been his first GM car.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It does snow in the mountains in AZ and CA.. :)

But thats not where The population is either. It doesnt snow in the bay area, LA, or San Diego. And in AZ a good 3/4ths or more of the population is probably in the Phoenix and Tucson areas. Same goes for Texas. The high population areas dont snow. I'm sure theres enough people in these areas for GM to give us some RWD cars other than expensive Cadillacs.

[Robert Hall]

But thats not where The population is either. It doesnt snow in the bay area, LA, or San Diego. And in AZ a good 3/4ths or more of the population is probably in the Phoenix and Tucson areas. Same goes for Texas. The high population areas dont snow. I'm sure theres enough people in these areas for GM to give us some RWD cars other than expensive Cadillacs.

[post="4511"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Agreed...if I lived in one of those markets, I'd have the same type of cars as I have now in Denver--RWD primary and a 4WD SUV to go in the mountains occasionally.... (snow and off-road).

Then again, there seem to be a ton of FWD cars in the LA area and SF Bay Area.... obviously, it's not just the FWD aspect that sells so many Hondas and Toyotas.. Edited August 26, 2005 by moltar

[CaddyXLR-V]

The last time I was in LA all I saw was BMW, Mercedes, and Mustangs. They seriously made up 80% of all the cars I saw. I guess it depends on what part of LA your in though.

[razoredge]

CA has a huge population and doesnt snow, Arizona is growing, Texas has a huge population, Florida, all these states dont get snow. Cant they make some RWD cars for us? It might actually help GMs image problem in CA to actually get some sport sedans out there.

[post="4417"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree with that totally, I am against the lack of RWD cars at GM I just know they need to keep FWD cars as well. Its two bad same models cant be optioned both ways but the lay out is too different. Im really excited about the Solstice and Kappa platform but was disappointed to hear it could not be built to provide a 4 seat car. That truely was poor planning.

Somethings going to pop up but it seems GM doesnt plan on Buick or Pontiac getting this RWD type of car that everyone is crying for. Its going to be a satanurine.

Absolutely crazy dumb stupid bull shit

[turbo200]

Agreed that one thing to change the tide in California, FL, TX, and other affluent sunbelt states would be good-looking cars with some performance to back it up. Ultimately, MB, BMW, Acura, Infiniti all become status symbols through good product, plain and simple. Cadillac is on that same road to success, in CA too. LA is mostly made up of the elite, and when you get outside of the elite you get all imports. I mean all imports. GM should thank thier lucky stars for the GMT900 platform, if it weren't for that, they would be practically non-existant in LA. Practically non-existant. Back to the car concentrations, the elite are made up of BMWs, Lexus, and MBs for the most part; LA is driven by image. Volvos are to be found, as Jaguars, Saabs, and some Audis, and a whole crapload of Escalades and Hummers. Mustangs are pretty popular too, but for the most part, CA is just like any other state. Whatever is hot is desired by many, and whatever is hot is because of design and desirable features. Cadillac's next lineup of vehicles will be very desirable to Californians, because of one main feature: upscale design. But a cool RWD performance sedan and coupe will also really make it in LA.

[knightfan26917]

Once again its simple, very , very simple, we cant have thousands of people out on the highways in rush hour traffic in RWD cars on snowy days - Simple

Now hows abouts all you "I get by" with RWD people , let it go. We cant have thousands of people out there "getting by".

...and yet, seems more pick-up trucks (RWD, btw) and RWD Cadillacs are on the roads these days....

*shakes head*

My sister's vehicle is a '97 S-10 ... RWD, btw ... and manual transmission. It's her daily driver. And, yes, she has driven it the last 7 years ... all year round ... in snow. No problems.


*pauses*


Ya know...we haven't heard from those interns recently. Hmmm.....


Cort, "Mr Road Trip" / soon2be ex-"Mr MC", 31swm/pig valve/pacer
MCfamily.models.HO.chdQB = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
MC Guide = http://www.chevyasylum.com/mcspotter/main.html
IL & area MCs = http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/imcog/
MC's future = http://www.projectmonte.com/petition/
"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[rkmdogs]

You guys with all your emotional opinions on front wheel drive vs. rear wheel drive, have all missed the elephant sitting in the refrigerator! EMERGENCY HANDLING !!!!!!! That's what it ultimately is all about! How well does each system react or respond in that unexpected situation. Part of this is, how well trained is the average driver in either system to react CORRECTLY in an emergency! This may start another whole round of opinions, but I would suggest that somebody get an opinion from some of the well-known driving school pros! It boils down to: which system is more forgiving to the mediocre driver, and how many lives can it save? We are talking now about your average daily driver, commuter car now, not a special-use, only-on-sunny-day toy! <_<

[regfootball]

...and yet, seems more pick-up trucks (RWD, btw) and RWD Cadillacs are on the roads these days....

*shakes head*

My sister's vehicle is a '97 S-10 ... RWD, btw ... and manual transmission.  It's her daily driver.  And, yes, she has driven it the last 7 years ... all year round ... in snow.  No problems.
*pauses*
Ya know...we haven't heard from those interns recently.  Hmmm.....
Cort, "Mr Road Trip" / soon2be ex-"Mr MC", 31swm/pig valve/pacer
MCfamily.models.HO.chdQB = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
MC Guide = http://www.chevyasylum.com/mcspotter/main.html
IL & area MCs = http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/imcog/
MC's future = http://www.projectmonte.com/petition/
"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[post="4827"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

oh, so she's the one who takes 90 seconds to get off from a stoplight on a snowy day, spinning like crazy, with about 15 cars behind her, honking their horns with anger. And I suppose an assload of sand in the bed too. Nice.

[trevormac98]

You know its really funny how everyone expects the interns to say something every few posts. I like to monitor the discussions also. I agree with some that having a few RWD vehicles is a plus. The solstice and sky are a good start. We also need to come up with a few more RWD to compete with the other brands, but like a poster has said on he, "Invent Rather than mimic, become the styling leader." We cannot keep copying Chrysler and others to stay on top. Besides, the projected launch of these vehicles is 2009, and who knows what the market will want then. We need to do something outrageous now, so when 2009 comes, everyone is trying to play catch up with us. For all you people up north, I am orginally from MI and it is some much easier to have FWD then RWD in the snow. And I am not talking about a RWD SUV or Big truck, but those RWD cars, they handle outrageously bad in snow and sometimes in rain. Also to the man whose sister drives an S-10 in the snow, I passed her once, in a snow bank. Come on C&G, lets quit talking about RWD. Lets all agree we need a couple RWD to compete and for the southerners who dont experience snow, because how often do you drive in the mountains of Arizona? But really, what else would you want to see? Try putting your mindset in a person who does not have the vast knowledge of automobiles and physics that the community of C&G has. Like the new Hummer Commercials, not bad, right? Other forms of marketing, GMAC, turnaround, and that nature. But please no more about RWD, digress into AWD and features of a vehicle. Thank You all, Trevor PS. The Cadillac CTS is a cheap RWD, you can get it for 299 a month. What more do you want? DOWN WITH TOYOTA

[pow]

RWD cars, like the 300C, have a neat and tidy overhang, that barely hangs over. You can try to push the wheels to the corner as much as you want with FWD, but it's just not going to happen.

[post="5703"][/post]

Right... ;)

[knightfan26917]

oh, so she's the one who takes 90 seconds to get off from a stoplight on a snowy day, spinning like crazy, with about 15 cars behind her, honking their horns with anger.  And I suppose an assload of sand in the bed too.  Nice.

Wow. What interesting assumptions, reg. These show you obviously do not know my sister. At all.

She takes off quicker from a stoplight than some guy drivers I know.

People (guys mostly) honk their horns at her for other reasons....

And, sorry, nothing in the bed.

*shakes head*

People and their assumptions amuse and anger me at the same time.


Cort, "Mr Road Trip" / soon2be ex-"Mr MC", 31swm/pig valve/pacer
MCfamily.models.HO.chdQB = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
MC Guide = http://www.chevyasylum.com/mcspotter/main.html
IL & area MCs = http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/imcog/
MC's future = http://www.projectmonte.com/petition/
"My depth perception must be off again" ... Saliva ... 'Rest In Pieces'

[knightfan26917]

Also to the man whose sister drives an S-10 in the snow, I passed her once, in a snow bank.

*raises eyebrow*

Oh really? You obviously missed an important point in that post of mine ... she has had NO (I repeat, NO) problems in snow. In other words, she hasn't been stuck in a snow bank....

[Cory Wolfe]

Ya know, empowah, I was going to mention the Mini as well... :P

But enough of FWD vs. RWD. It is clear that people on each side of the arguement will never agree. And that the interns want to here about other stuff... Yeah that post a few pages back. So let my post be the last to disobey it. :D

One thing that I feel is a huge problem with GM right now is the relentless name-changing. Changing a vehicles name isn't going to grant it a one-way ticket to sales stardom. It will, however, confuse the hell out of people. Just ask my Grandma who would be driving a never-should-have-been 05 Cavalier if I didn't have to tell her about the Cobalt. As with the people in my town who bought once-again-never-should-have-been 05 GA because they didn't know what the hell the G6 was. I think Azteks have been selling better here than G6s because of that...

Another problem is the seemingly endless rebadging. People always complained about how many GM had and then GM said they would be moving away from that. Yett it seems to me as if there are more rebadges now than there were then, especially in Canada. It was bad then and it still is.

Finally, how hard is it to paint mirrors? And why is it still being done? It seriously detracts from the exterior appearance.