House GOP's Tax Plan Will Scrap Electric Vehicle Credit

[ccap41]

So $7,500 ->  $3,750-> $1,875(for those who don't want to math).

I thought it was a tiered process. See, I still think that is a good idea. I don't think 7500 is necessary though. Drop it down to 5000, 2500, 1250. 

Plus, if this is a concern for you, you have 2 months to go buy your EV for a full $7500 tax credit! 

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I drove from Pittsburgh to NY to Pittsburgh earlier this week.  It shouldn't be surprising to me that people are idiots on the road, but on the first leg of that trip I wanted to nuke the whole east coast.   I can't imagine the idiots who can barely operate a Corolla operating a flying drone car... 

You don't fly the drone, the drones are autonomous.  They wouldn't even have any controls, as like in a Level 5 Autonomous car.

[Drew Dowdell]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You don't fly the drone, the drones are autonomous.  They wouldn't even have any controls, as like in a Level 5 Autonomous car.

Someone would crash it while watching The Hobbit.

[smk4565]

23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Someone would crash it while watching The Hobbit.

You can't crash it, it is self flying.  You get in, it takes you to a destination.  This is the future.

[balthazar]

What 'Level 5 autonomous car'?

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

What 'Level 5 autonomous car'?

The levels of autonomous car describe how capable a vehicle is in self driving. Level 5 (I believe) is fully automatic.

[balthazar]

Note the omission of the words 'is a' in my post.

[ocnblu]

The large print ad push:  BUY A BOLT!  GET $7500!  (It even carries an MSRP directly tied to the $7500 amount, which, to me, shows the arbitrary nature of that MSRP figure, since the car is a yuge money loser for GM... GM is clearly already pricing the car lower than it should for its own fiscal health)

*potential buyer goes to Chevy dealer because of hype*

The small print reality:  OH SORRY

*potential buyer keeps driving his Jeepiat*

The credit isn't all it's cracked up to be. 

[Drew Dowdell]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Note the omission of the words 'is a' in my post.

It was late and I had already taken my Ambien. 

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

The large print ad push:  BUY A BOLT!  GET $7500!  (It even carries an MSRP directly tied to the $7500 amount, which, to me, shows the arbitrary nature of that MSRP figure, since the car is a yuge money loser for GM... GM is clearly already pricing the car lower than it should for its own fiscal health)

*potential buyer goes to Chevy dealer because of hype*

The small print reality:  OH SORRY

*potential buyer keeps driving his Jeepiat*

The credit isn't all it's cracked up to be. 

The only way to be guaranteed the credit is to lease, which I agree is a dumb way to set up the program.

[Suaviloquent]

What if they had credits that had an inverse relationship to the MSRP of the EV? Cheaper EV’s like Leaf getting the biggest credit ($7500 like right now), then a second tier for Bolt (up to like $5000), then Model 3 ($3750) and then cars like Model S and upcoming Mission E from Porsche getting ZERO EV purchase tax credit. 

 

Interesting bit of social engineering thought no? Would it all auto mfg’s to prioritize more affordable EV’s for the masses?

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/3/2017 at 3:03 PM, ccap41 said:

Did you have respect before? Politics have been corrupt and $h!ty since the beginning of time. 

Less than zero with the leaders of both parties at this point.

[Suaviloquent]

I doubt that EVs will ever be priced nominally exactly like a comparable gas power car.

Tesla still does that ‘gas savings’ hack on their purchase offers for to lower the payments for finance/lease...

So some of that mitigated expense of potentially lower operating costs will still get wrapped into MSRP as most automakers will do to reduce the horrendous losses of having to compete against their own bread and butters with some electric gluten free toast and non-hydrogenated margarine. 

[balthazar]

On 11/4/2017 at 8:57 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

The only way to be guaranteed the credit is to lease, which I agree is a dumb way to set up the program.

Leased car's Fed EV credit goes to the lessor, not the leasee.

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Leased car's Fed EV credit goes to the lessor, not the leasee.

The credit is used to reduce the cost of the lease substantially.  With exceptions for local dealership shenanigans, the credits usually act as a dollar for dollar down payment on the lease. 

[ccap41]

17 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

What if they had credits that had an inverse relationship to the MSRP of the EV? Cheaper EV’s like Leaf getting the biggest credit ($7500 like right now), then a second tier for Bolt (up to like $5000), then Model 3 ($3750) and then cars like Model S and upcoming Mission E from Porsche getting ZERO EV purchase tax credit. 

 

Interesting bit of social engineering thought no? Would it all auto mfg’s to prioritize more affordable EV’s for the masses?

I think it's a decent idea.. but it also doesn't really seem fair to a "free market" that just because you built a more luxurious or overall better EV that it should be somewhat punished. Otherwise they could pop out 100 mile range $h! boxes for dirt cheap and that doesn't really help us much either. 

I don't think they all need to focus on more affordable EVs for the masses as long as the mainstream brands already are, which they are. 

17 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

I doubt that EVs will ever be priced nominally exactly like a comparable gas power car.

 

They won't. Like you said, they will throw some of the savings into the price like companies do for anything that's "high efficiency" be it a refrigerator, windows, AC unit... 

[Drew Dowdell]

We don't have a free market. 

I disagree with the idea that EVs won't be priced like a comparable ICE.  Eventually, competition will start to heat up and someone will try and sell on price.  For the moment, EVs are still a novelty item, but as soon as someone gears up to crank them out like Accords, the price wars will start.  This won't happen for at least a decade or more, but it will happen eventually. 

The reason it will happen is that aside from the cost of the batteries, EVs are inherently less complicated vehicles to assemble.  They don't have 10-speed transmissions, they don't have exhaust or emissions equipment, they don't need to get EPA emissions certification, they don't have fancy AWD system with multiple clutches.  Build electric motor powertrains in 3 sizes and the performance can be tuned completely by software..... GM could build every single model in their lineup with just 3 motor powertrains and some software instead of however many different engine designs they have today. 

Just look at the 2.0T alone... they have 8 different tuning variants and FWD/RWD/FAWD/RAWD orientations coupled with multiple transmissions (6-speed FWD, 6-speed manual RWD, 8-Speed RWD, 8-Speed FWD, 9-speed FWD, probably 10-speed RWD in future).  Imagine if all of those could be cut down to EVPU Medium FWD and EVPU Medium RWD with just software changes for power output.   Once battery costs come down, that will become a huge savings for manufacturers. 

AWD will most likely be handled in the Tesla fashion of adding a smaller motor at the other end of the car rather than a driveshaft and transmission.  That smaller motor would be pilfered from some compact vehicle like the Bolt. 

The eventual cost savings to manufacturers is why I see EVs as inevitable.... not any government mandate. 

[ccap41]

23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I disagree with the idea that EVs won't be priced like a comparable ICE.  Eventually, competition will start to heat up and someone will try and sell on price.  For the moment, EVs are still a novelty item, but as soon as someone gears up to crank them out like Accords, the price wars will start.  This won't happen for at least a decade or more, but it will happen eventually. 

But at that point it is no longer a savings as they'd be mainstream. That's just what it costs to run a vehicle, at that point. Until that point, I would think they would be pricing according to some of the savings. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

But at that point it is no longer a savings as they'd be mainstream. That's just what it costs to run a vehicle, at that point. Until that point, I would think they would be pricing according to some of the savings. 

You mean pricing the car higher because of the implied savings at the pump?

At the moment I think only Tesla can sort of get away with that, but it's more of a Tesla prestige price rather than an EV savings price. Tesla does some pretty deceptive lease pricing by factoring "gasoline savings" into the lease price they present. 

Volt, Bolt, Leaf all seem to be priced a bit on the high side, but in the case of the Bolt at least... GM seems to be losing money on every one they sell.

And yes, once EVs hit mainstream, they won't be able to price gasoline savings into them, however, I do think they will be more profitable for the manufacturers to build, so in essence, gasoline drivers will start to pay more for their cars than EV drivers do.   Again, this is 10 - 20 years in the future by my toss of a dart.  Once EVs reach price parity with ICEs, the ICE is toast.

[ocnblu]

^ Last sentence is ridiculous

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

^ Last sentence is ridiculous

Care to expand on why you think that?

[ocnblu]

16 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Care to expand on why you think that?

Well because.  No infrastructure.  No soul.  No accounting for different tastes.  Or needs.

This simplicity in manufacture you speak of...  does not come to play in current EV designs.  Is the battery THAT expensive right now, relative to the overall product?  Really?

[Drew Dowdell]

21 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Well because.  No infrastructure.  No soul.  No accounting for different tastes.  Or needs.

This simplicity in manufacture you speak of...  does not come to play in current EV designs.  Is the battery THAT expensive right now, relative to the overall product?  Really?

Yes.  The battery is upwards of 30% of the cost of the vehicle, depending on range and vehicle price of course.  The Bolt would have the highest percentage of MSRP sunk in the battery of all of the vehicles on the market today. 

You're overthinking my simplicity argument.   I'm not saying that an EV powertrain is simple to manufacture, on the contrary, assembly labor costs per unit are likely more expensive because of the need for Clean Rooms for assembly, etc.   What I'm saying is that there can be far far fewer variants of the powertrain design. Manufacturers can have a single physical assembly that replaces 5 to 8 variants of ICE.  Just change the software for performance differences.  Tesla can upgrade you to a more powerful model over the phone as soon as your Visa authorizes.  Not having to build a 10-speed automatic transmission would be a benefit to any manufacturer.

The kinds of cars you and I love @ocnblu are already toast.  I'm sure your Compass is fun as far as new cars go, I enjoyed my drives in them, but there is nothing like the soul of the older stuff.  It's all 4-cylinder automatic Camrys, Accords, CR-Vs, and RAV-4s these days. If buyers cared about soul, those wouldn't be the biggest sellers out there. 

My prediction that when EVs reach price parity with ICEs wasn't wishful thinking.... it was a warning.   The moment a Camry can pick an ICE 4-cylinder Camry or EV Camry for the same price, the ICE's days are numbered.  The manufacturers will respond by raising the prices on ICE cars in order to push people into the vehicle that is more cost efficient for the manufacturer to build.  That's what they did with V6es... they're pushing us all into Turbo-4s instead.  That's what Ford is trying to do with V8s in the F-150 and has done in the Expedition and Navigator. 

Didn't anyone notice there are only two V6 mid-size family sedans left on the market today?

[ocnblu]

Nah the electric version has no range.  And charging times are too slow.  Plus the combo of no range along with scant charging infrastructure and slow charging times will keep smart people out of electrics for the foreseeable future.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ocnblu said:

Nah the electric version has no range.  And charging times are too slow.  Plus the combo of no range along with scant charging infrastructure and slow charging times will keep smart people out of electrics for the foreseeable future.

That's today, I'm talking 10 - 15 years in the future.  The charging infrastructure is going to be going through some rapid development over the next 5 years.  Charge times will drop, range will increase, the number of charging stations will grow.  I'm participating in the development of some of the new charging infrastructure as part of my day job.

One of Tesla's big mistake (in their list of mistakes) was not offering a high range verision of their cars instead of only the high performance version.  With the battery capacity they have, they could have made a lower powered "Eco" model that goes 300 - 400 miles instead of just 250 - 300. 

[FAPTurbo]

19 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Nah the electric version has no range.  And charging times are too slow.  Plus the combo of no range along with scant charging infrastructure and slow charging times will keep smart people out of electrics for the foreseeable future.

yet charging times have significantly reduced, range has improved and infrastructure is being built out. just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not happening. 

the only thing that moves faster than my tesla is your goalposts...

[ccap41]

20 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes.  The battery is upwards of 30% of the cost of the vehicle, depending on range and vehicle price of course.  The Bolt would have the highest percentage of MSRP sunk in the battery of all of the vehicles on the market today. 

You're overthinking my simplicity argument.   I'm not saying that an EV powertrain is simple to manufacture, on the contrary, assembly labor costs per unit are likely more expensive because of the need for Clean Rooms for assembly, etc.   What I'm saying is that there can be far far fewer variants of the powertrain design. Manufacturers can have a single physical assembly that replaces 5 to 8 variants of ICE.  Just change the software for performance differences.  Tesla can upgrade you to a more powerful model over the phone as soon as your Visa authorizes.  Not having to build a 10-speed automatic transmission would be a benefit to any manufacturer.

The kinds of cars you and I love @ocnblu are already toast.  I'm sure your Compass is fun as far as new cars go, I enjoyed my drives in them, but there is nothing like the soul of the older stuff.  It's all 4-cylinder automatic Camrys, Accords, CR-Vs, and RAV-4s these days. If buyers cared about soul, those wouldn't be the biggest sellers out there. 

My prediction that when EVs reach price parity with ICEs wasn't wishful thinking.... it was a warning.   The moment a Camry can pick an ICE 4-cylinder Camry or EV Camry for the same price, the ICE's days are numbered.  The manufacturers will respond by raising the prices on ICE cars in order to push people into the vehicle that is more cost efficient for the manufacturer to build.  That's what they did with V6es... they're pushing us all into Turbo-4s instead.  That's what Ford is trying to do with V8s in the F-150 and has done in the Expedition and Navigator. 

Didn't anyone notice there are only two V6 mid-size family sedans left on the market today?

Very well stated, Drew. 

Not exactly happy about it because it's true but I think it was well worded and explained. 

[surreal1272]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:40 PM, ocnblu said:

Nah the electric version has no range.  And charging times are too slow.  Plus the combo of no range along with scant charging infrastructure and slow charging times will keep smart people out of electrics for the foreseeable future.

Yes because nothing has surely changed over the last five years nor will they ever </obvious sarcasm>  

 

Seriously. Where do you come up with this &#036;h&#33;?

[ocnblu]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yes because nothing has surely changed over the last five years nor will they ever </obvious sarcasm>  

 

Seriously. Where do you come up with this &#036;h&#33;?

Dealing with your different abilities is always a surreal experience.  So, there's that.  Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own as a real one?  Be honest.  Think a minute.

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Dealing with your different abilities is always a surreal experience.  So, there's that.  Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own as a real one?  Be honest.  Think a minute.

No one here has made that claim.  The most any of us have claimed is that it is getting easier than before at a steady rate.

[ocnblu]

Really?  No one here has made that claim?   

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ocnblu said:

Really?  No one here has made that claim?   

Exactly... No one here has said that it is as completely easy as owning a gasoline car.  I personally have stated that owning an EV requires changing one's thinking about how and when one fills up.  Changing a way of thinking is clearly a challenge for some people, and thus makes it not as easy as going to a gas station.

[oldshurst442]

41 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Really?  No one here has made that claim?   

Nope....I second Drew.

Read again all posts...

And...to answer this question

51 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own as a real one?

YES!

I do believe that!

No 5000 or 7000 or even 10 000 mile oil change intervals to think about...

No oil filters either.

No low level fluids of any kind to worry about including a huge worry of engine coolant loss...which also has another worry in old hoses that need changing.

No timing belts (or chains...didnt the Northstar have a problem with its chains too?) or spark plugs to think about...

No mufflers and muffler plumbing to change after 7-8 years of ownership and having all those catalytic converter related things like the converter itself and sensors go bad...

The only inconvenience is where  to charge up on a trip requiring a longer range than 150 miles or so?

If I lived in Boston...I think I could reach Vermont...(as I live in Montreal and I think in METRIC and US destinations and cities are not what I know...)

I live in Montreal...QUEBEC CITY OR OTTAWA is EASILY MADE on 1 CHARGE with a BOLT...and then back home on another 30 minute charge time...

Yeah...no worries there...

 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nope....I second Drew.

Read again all posts...

And...to answer this question

YES!

I do believe that!

No 5000 or 7000 or even 10 000 mile oil change intervals to think about...

No oil filters either.

No low level fluids of any kind to worry about including a huge worry of engine coolant loss...which also has another worry in old hoses that need changing.

No timing belts (or chains...didnt the Northstar have a problem with its chains too?) or spark plugs to think about...

No mufflers and muffler plumbing to change after 7-8 years of ownership and having all those catalytic converter related things like the converter itself and sensors go bad...

The only inconvenience is where  to charge up on a trip requiring a longer range than 150 miles or so?

If I lived in Boston...I think I could reach Vermont...(as I live in Montreal and I think in METRIC and US destinations and cities are not what I know...)

I live in Montreal...QUEBEC CITY OR OTTAWA is EASILY MADE on 1 CHARGE with a BOLT...and then back home on another 30 minute charge time...

Yeah...no worries there...

 

 

You just "seconded" Drew... then you proved me right.  Which is it?  Such a silly boy.

[G. David Felt]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:14 PM, ocnblu said:

Well because.  No infrastructure.  No soul.  No accounting for different tastes.  Or needs.

This simplicity in manufacture you speak of...  does not come to play in current EV designs.  Is the battery THAT expensive right now, relative to the overall product?  Really?

You continue to be blind to the truth that their is a vast growing infrastructure for charging.

No Soul, No accounting or different tastes or needs? That is all very subjective and personal. many who drive EV's now would disagree with you on both counts.

EV's will create a ton of new jobs and new personalities as companies build 3rd party controller boards and software upgrades that enhance the experience of the EV.

Why Tesla is able to change the performance on the fly once your credit card clears remotely, Any auto company can really do this. The BOLT even can put out more power, GM just has chosen to not offer the options yet. I would be even willing to say that I bet there is 3rd party companies already looking at performance upgrades for the BOLT. Same thing all 3rd party companies have done to ICE.

@Drew Dowdell Nailed the simplicity part very clearly and then even went farther to clarify it or you and others. The ability for people to have their own companies based on building EV upgrades is huge as we are just at the start of the EV revolution for Auto's.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Dealing with your different abilities is always a surreal experience.  So, there's that.  Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own as a real one?  Be honest.  Think a minute.

Yes, yes it is and I am willing to state that. It is easier to own an EV auto where I live than an ICE auto. Less cost, less maintenance, easier to refill the battery pack with electrons. A soul that responds to the 21st century.

[ocnblu]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

You continue to be blind to the truth that their is a vast growing infrastructure for charging.

No Soul, No accounting or different tastes or needs? That is all very subjective and personal. many who drive EV's now would disagree with you on both counts.

EV's will create a ton of new jobs and new personalities as companies build 3rd party controller boards and software upgrades that enhance the experience of the EV.

Why Tesla is able to change the performance on the fly once your credit card clears remotely, Any auto company can really do this. The BOLT even can put out more power, GM just has chosen to not offer the options yet. I would be even willing to say that I bet there is 3rd party companies already looking at performance upgrades for the BOLT. Same thing all 3rd party companies have done to ICE.

@Drew Dowdell Nailed the simplicity part very clearly and then even went farther to clarify it or you and others. The ability for people to have their own companies based on building EV upgrades is huge as we are just at the start of the EV revolution for Auto's.

In your tiny corner of the world, anything can happen.  Unicorns?

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

You just "seconded" Drew... then you proved me right.  Which is it?  Such a silly boy.

Oh....my dear...

Comprehension is not your forte...

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Changing a way of thinking is clearly a challenge for some people, and thus makes it not as easy as going to a gas station.

I just answered your question...

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own

And then I went on to say....

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes....

The only inconvenience is where  to charge up on a trip....

 

Yeah...no worries there...

You did not get the point where we are making fun of your thought processes...

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Just now, ocnblu said:

In your tiny corner of the world, anything can happen.  Unicorns?

You really surprised me as you have shown just how conservative, non willing to learn, grow and embrace differences. You seem to imply that life is perfect and everything should just stay static.

If we all thought that way, we would have slavery, prosecution of the LGBTA community and we would be poorer for it due to the lack of enrichment on top of still sucking in fumes from leaded gas.

There is a reason that those that create and grow their wealth embrace change.

Why do you fear the EV? Your job will not go away in repairing auto's!

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

In your tiny corner of the world, anything can happen.  Unicorns?

That would be in YOUR tiny corner of the world...where evolution stands still...

 

[ocnblu]

"auto's", which implies a possessive, says everything loud and clear.

[balthazar]

No mufflers and muffler plumbing to change after 7-8 years of ownership

I really don't think this is a widespread thing any longer. When I bought my I6 F-150 in '94, one of the upgrades I planned was a better muffler when mine started to rot out. 146K and 12 years later and it was still rock solid. 14 years and 174K on my Silverado and the same thing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it sure doesn't happen automatically like it used to.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

 

I really don't think this is a widespread thing any longer. When I bought my I6 F-150 in '94, one of the upgrades I planned was a better muffler when mine started to rot out. 146K and 12 years later and it was still rock solid. 14 years and 174K on my Silverado and the same thing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it sure doesn't happen automatically like it used to.

Yes....I was hesitant to put that in there. I realize that as well.

To be honest...even spark plugs arent an issue anymore either.

But still...the main thing is that EVs are SUPPOSEDLY LESS hassle to maintain than ICE cars.

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Dealing with your different abilities is always a surreal experience.  So, there's that.  Do you firmly believe we are at a point where an electric car is 100% as easy to own as a real one?  Be honest.  Think a minute.

Not the point. Your post implies that there is NO reason to own one because there have been no advancements made, whether its the cars themselves or the EV infrastructure (both of which would be a lie btw). Your whole stance on this is just trolling 101 without meter or basis of simple facts. I know for a fact that a pure EV, would do wonders for my daily commute. Just never having to stop in a &#036;h&#33;hole gas station is a plus for me, so yes it is at a point where an EV is EASIER to own than an ICE car, FOR ME.

And why you felt the need to make this personal, with your first line, is beyond me. Stick to the subject for which you are so fond of trolling.

Edited November 9, 2017 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

 

 

I really don't think this is a widespread thing any longer. When I bought my I6 F-150 in '94, one of the upgrades I planned was a better muffler when mine started to rot out. 146K and 12 years later and it was still rock solid. 14 years and 174K on my Silverado and the same thing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it sure doesn't happen automatically like it used to.

Already happened in the CR-V.  The Encore had a damaged and clogged Catalytic converter replaced under warranty over the summer. 

If I lived in a different location but with the same work situation, I would absolutely switch over to an EV as soon as one was built that I liked the looks of.   I still want my luxury goodies.  

If I were buying today, I'd probably aim for an ELR because I can't afford a CT6 PHEV.   But Albert would never let me get something impractical like that.

[balthazar]

I agree that EVs, relatively speaking, should be cheaper to manufacture than an ICE vehicle. If they get the 'skateboard' thing going, that should further drop costs by a huge factor. But I would not expect EV pricing to drop below where ICEs are- business does NOT operate that way.  Even if margins tripled, there is a 'baked in' ATP that people just assume. There are no Henry Fords in the industry today (lowered Model T price from $850 to $300).

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I agree that EVs, relatively speaking, should be cheaper to manufacture than an ICE vehicle. If they get the 'skateboard' thing going, that should further drop costs by a huge factor. But I would not expect EV pricing to drop below where ICEs are- business does NOT operate that way.  Even if margins tripled, there is a 'baked in' ATP that people just assume. There are no Henry Fords in the industry today (lowered Model T price from $850 to $300).

No, EVs won't drop below ICEs... but ICE pricing will be nudged upwards providing the same effect. 

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Already happened in the CR-V.  The Encore had a damaged and clogged Catalytic converter replaced under warranty over the summer. 

If I lived in a different location but with the same work situation, I would absolutely switch over to an EV as soon as one was built that I liked the looks of.   I still want my luxury goodies.  

If I were buying today, I'd probably aim for an ELR because I can't afford a CT6 PHEV.   But Albert would never let me get something impractical like that.

Funny you bring up the ELR. I actually saw one on the way to work this morning and up close, it is a sharp little car. Shame that is was doomed to fail from the start becuase of a much too high price tag and only two doors (which doesn’t bother me but I see the issue there). A gently used one would be a nice addition to my driveway. 

[A Horse With No Name]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

That would be in YOUR tiny corner of the world...where evolution stands still...

 

Correction...in his corner fo the world it is only 6000 years old....and Adam shared Eden with dinosaurs.

All of the great fossil fuel was made during Noah's flood...got to pay Adam and his three sons respect somehow...might as well burn the remnants of a worldwide flood...

11 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Funny you bring up the ELR. I actually saw one on the way to work this morning and up close, it is a sharp little car. Shame that is was doomed to fail from the start becuase of a much too high price tag and only two doors (which doesn’t bother me but I see the issue there). A gently used one would be a nice addition to my driveway. 

Again, quoted for truth! tucker was a fantastic car and also ahead of its time...

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

I agree that EVs, relatively speaking, should be cheaper to manufacture than an ICE vehicle. If they get the 'skateboard' thing going, that should further drop costs by a huge factor. But I would not expect EV pricing to drop below where ICEs are- business does NOT operate that way.  Even if margins tripled, there is a 'baked in' ATP that people just assume. There are no Henry Fords in the industry today (lowered Model T price from $850 to $300).

Electrics are a natural for an Urban environment...as society becomes more urban, I think this will be what pushes EV's.

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Stick to the subject for which you are so fond of trolling.

Or come up with some original thinking or original argumentation.  You are much brighter/more intellectually capable than your posts on this subject would tend to indicate.

Edited November 9, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[A Horse With No Name]

15 hours ago, ocnblu said:

 silly boy.

I prefer to think of him as an adult in the room.

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 But Albert would never let me get something impractical like that.

It's all in the negotiation....

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I prefer to think of him as an adult in the room.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's all in the negotiation....

 

Each thought in that post requires a +1. A Thank-you +1 for me as you are not condescending towards me as Ocnblu was...although he was joking around with me on that...I hope)  

And a +1 because you are right! It IS all about the negotiation.

[ocnblu]

10 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Not the point. Your post implies that there is NO reason to own one because there have been no advancements made, whether its the cars themselves or the EV infrastructure (both of which would be a lie btw). Your whole stance on this is just trolling 101 without meter or basis of simple facts. I know for a fact that a pure EV, would do wonders for my daily commute. Just never having to stop in a &#036;h&#33;hole gas station is a plus for me, so yes it is at a point where an EV is EASIER to own than an ICE car, FOR ME.

And why you felt the need to make this personal, with your first line, is beyond me. Stick to the subject for which you are so fond of trolling.

Are you getting one this week?    PICS PLEASE!