Quick Drive: 2017 Kia Soul Exclaim

[William Maley]

I happen to be a big fan of the Kia Soul. Its daring looks, spacious interior, and overall value make it an interesting option in the compact class. It seems many others would agree as the Soul is one of Kia’s best selling models. To help keep it up there, Kia has introduced a new turbo engine for the top-line Exclaim (!) model along with minor changes for 2017. Let's see how these changes affect the Soul.

• Aside from the turbo engine, Kia made some design tweaks to the Exclaim to have it stand out from other Soul trims. This includes a new front bumper, red accents, 18-inch alloy wheels, a twin-tip exhaust, and exclusive colors like this copper color seen here. The little changes really make the Soul stand out even further than before.
• Moving on to the turbo engine, it is a 1.6L four-cylinder packing 201 horsepower and 195 pound-feet of torque. This is only paired with a seven-speed dual-clutch transmission. If you really want a manual with your turbo-four, Kia will gladly sell you a Forte5 SX which features the same engine.
• There is a brief moment of turbo lag when you step on the accelerator, but the engine comes into its own after this with power building smoothly. There are no issues with getting up to speed when merging or making a pass.
• The dual-clutch transmission is a bit of a mixed bag. In stop-and-go traffic, the transmission exhibits some jerkiness and lazy shifts. We also noticed the transmission was slow to respond in terms of downshifting, making us think the programming for this transmission was focused on fuel economy. At higher speeds, the transmission is better with rapid and smooth shifts.
• The turbo engine has the highest fuel economy fuel economy figures in the Soul lineup with an EPA rating of 26 City/31 Highway/28 Combined. We saw an average of 25.3 mpg during our week in mostly city driving, which is slightly disappointing.
• With the turbo engine and racy looks, you might think that this particular Soul is fun to drive. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is not the case. Out on a winding road, the Soul is competent with minimal body roll and okay steering. This would be ok if it weren’t for the sporty image that is being portrayed by the exterior. We do wish that Kia had made some changes to the suspension to make it slightly sportier. 
• The upside to not messing with the Soul’s suspension is it mostly retains the smooth and comfortable ride of other models. Mostly is the keyword as the 18-inch wheels do introduce some harshness to the Soul’s ride.
• There is a fair amount of wind and road noise, most of this due to the Soul’s boxy shape.
• The Soul’s interior is still as sharp looking as it first was when the current model was launched in 2013. Little touches such as the uniquely styled air vents and orange accent stitching give the Soul a bit of whimsy. The extensive use of soft-touch materials gives off an aura of quality.
• Driver and passenger get power seats which make finding a comfortable position very easy. Those sitting in the back will appreciate the large amount of head and legroom, due to the Soul’s boxy shape.
• Our test Soul came with optional Technology Package that includes an 8-inch touchscreen with Kia’s UVO infotainment system and navigation. It is beginning to show its age in terms of the graphics, but it is still one of the most intuitive systems on sale today. A simple layout and redundant physical buttons make it breeze to use. Apple CarPlay and Android Auto integration is an added bonus.
• The Exclaim begins at $22,650 and comes well equipped. Standard features include automatic climate control, 7-inch touchscreen with UVO, Bluetooth, leather and cloth wrapped seats, push-button start with proximity key, and automatic headlights. Opt for the technology to get the 8-inch system, blind spot monitoring with rear-cross traffic alert, heated seats and steering wheel, and power folding mirrors. For only $26,995, you get a nicely equipped vehicle. Our test vehicle is slightly more expensive at $27,620 due to an optional panoramic sunroof which we would skip.

Disclaimer: Kia Provided the Soul, Insurance, and One Tank of Gas

Year: 2017
Make: Kia
Model: Soul
Trim: ! (Exclaim)
Engine: Turbocharged 1.6L GDI Four-Cylinder 
Driveline: Front-Wheel Drive, Seven-Speed Dual-Clutch Automatic
Horsepower @ RPM: 201 @ 6,000
Torque @ RPM: 195 @ 1,500 - 4,500
Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 26/31/28
Curb Weight: 3,232 lbs
Location of Manufacture: Gwangju, South Korea
Base Price: $22,650
As Tested Price: $27,620 (Includes $850.00 Destination Charge)

Options:
Technology Package - $3,000.00
Panoramic Sunroof - $1,000.00
Carpeted Floor Mars - $120.00

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[Drew Dowdell]

These have always been an attractive little package and they sell well.. I wonder how Kia will advance it without ruining the original sauce. 

[ocnblu]

These are awesome actually.  Lots of vertical room.  Plenty of legroom in the rear.  Nice cargo hold.  And a friendly demeanor.

[daves87rs]

Wife really likes these.......

[surreal1272]

Drove one from Arizona to NC back in May (when my dad passed away) and I really liked it. Just to illustrate how much, I had to drive a Jeep Compass (previous model, not the new one) back to Arizona and I would set that thing on fire in the middle of the freeway if I could get away with it. The Soul was infinitely better in every regard, from acceleration to looks. Simply no comparison. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

Lol that old compass was terrible.

I have a Quick Drive review of the new one coming.

 

[surreal1272]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Lol that old compass was terrible.

I have a Quick Drive review of the new one coming.

 

That CVT deserves a slow and painful death and if I can help it, will be the last CVT I drive. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

That CVT deserves a slow and painful death and if I can help it, will be the last CVT I drive. 

Agreed, while I loved the interior room of my Son's Patriot, both him and I do not miss it or the weird crazy flaky CVT transmission.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Agreed, while I loved the interior room of my Son's Patriot, both him and I do not miss it or the weird crazy flaky CVT transmission.

“Flaky” is putting it mildly. Garbage is more like it. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Soul is a neat little vehicle that I personally feel no affection for.

[surreal1272]

32 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Soul is a neat little vehicle that I personally feel no affection for.

So you have no Soul?

[regfootball]

sat in a new compass at the dealer this morning while getting oil changed, i know this is a soul thread, but the compass was mentioned.  the new one is really nice and i don't see how most folks would prefer a soul over the new compass.

[daves87rs]

13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Drove one from Arizona to NC back in May (when my dad passed away) and I really liked it. Just to illustrate how much, I had to drive a Jeep Compass (previous model, not the new one) back to Arizona and I would set that thing on fire in the middle of the freeway if I could get away with it. The Soul was infinitely better in every regard, from acceleration to looks. Simply no comparison. 

And my wife still wants to get one of these (we had one for a little while when my Cobalt was in for the recall) While the drive was okay, only because it had the 6 speed......

Think she'd be much happier with the Kia....

[smk4565]

Cars with punctuation marks in them are always good.   $27k seems like a lot but I guess not if it is loaded up and it is probably quicker than most small crossovers with that turbo.

This is also the successor to Pontiac Excitement!

Edited October 29, 2017 by smk4565

[ocnblu]

Oh no you dih int compare the much loved, historically rich and venerable Pontiac brand to a Kia Soul.

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, daves87rs said:

And my wife still wants to get one of these (we had one for a little while when my Cobalt was in for the recall) While the drive was okay, only because it had the 6 speed......

Think she'd be much happier with the Kia....

I am sure that the new Compass is much better but initial reviews seem to share similar complaints about the CVT. It will forever be a nonstarter for me. The Soul would be the way to go although an AWD option would be nice. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

There is no way to order a new Compass with a CVT.  It is either the nine-speed automatic or the 6 speed manual (like mine has).

[A Horse With No Name]

23 hours ago, regfootball said:

sat in a new compass at the dealer this morning while getting oil changed, i know this is a soul thread, but the compass was mentioned.  the new one is really nice and i don't see how most folks would prefer a soul over the new compass.

The absolute effing voice of reason speaking here.

On 10/28/2017 at 4:33 PM, surreal1272 said:

So you have no Soul?

As an atheist and a metaphysical naturalist of course I don't.  As a fat middle aged guy who doesn't want drive around with a paper bag on my head I also do not own a Korean import popularized by rodents either.

Edited October 30, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, ocnblu said:

There is no way to order a new Compass with a CVT.  It is either the nine-speed automatic or the 6 speed manual (like mine has).

This is not a manual.

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The absolute effing voice of reason speaking here.

As an atheist and a metaphysical naturalist of course I don't.  As a fat middle aged guy who doesn't want drive around with a paper bag on my head I also do not own a Korean import popularized by rodents either.

How is that the voice of reason? It’s just an opinion and an opinion that is not widely shared. As stated earlier, the only thing the Compass offers over something like the Soul is AWD. Silly commercials aside, it is a great car that doesn’t have the many hassles of the Compass, like a sluggish tranny and sluggish acceleration (both common complaints on the old and new Compass). The new Compass also pushes $34K for a fully loaded model, which is $7K above any loaded Soul. Sorry, but with $34K, I can get a mid size CUV (or something better) for that kind of coin. 

[Frisky Dingo]

The Soul is a neat little ride. It's really the spiritual successor to the original xB.

[A Horse With No Name]

13 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The Soul is a neat little ride. It's really the spiritual successor to the original xB.

Yes, but I prefer the original xB, having owned one.

[G. David Felt]

29 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

This is not a manual.

 

Interesting as I discovered playing with the configurator. If you are FWD on the Compass  you get their so called 6 speed CVT transmission. If you go 4x4, you get the choice of a manual or 9 speed transmission.

Weird Part is their 9 speed appears to be the same picture as the 6 speed cvt.

Their web site does not seem to really state that the 9 spd is a true gear transmission, but it could be with the new tech in packaging. Have to dig into this more as I always thought the 9 spd was a true gear transmission.

[G. David Felt]

Update, found more info, seems they are almost identical but the 9 spd is a true gear transmission as the builder offers these pics.

ZF (spd Transmission

[Robert Hall]

21 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Yes, but I prefer the original xB, having owned one.

The Cube seemed more like the xB than the Soul...and had a cool name and funky styling. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

As a fat middle aged guy who doesn't want drive around with a paper bag on my head I also do not own a Korean import popularized by rodents either.

Switch that out with Italian compact/import and you have the Compass lol 

7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Update, found more info, seems they are almost identical but the 9 spd is a true gear transmission as the builder offers these pics.

So they offer a CVT piece of $h! in the base trim, FWD only, then the 9spd in the rest of the lineup, and lastly, the 6 spd manual? 

Why the F does this need 3 transmissions? 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Why the F does this need 3 transmissions? 

Actually not sure, probably cost cutting on base model.

I actually really like how Jeep lets you personalize a vehicle with real choice in terms of color and options.

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

 the only thing the Compass offers over something like the Soul is AWD.

Not feeling like you are in an alternate reality where Micky, Minnie, Goofy and Pluto should be in the car with you is easily worth 7 grand.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Actually not sure, probably cost cutting on base model.

I actually really like how Jeep lets you personalize a vehicle with real choice in terms of color and options.

Not feeling like you are in an alternate reality where Micky, Minnie, Goofy and Pluto should be in the car with you is easily worth 7 grand.

Not even close to worth it. $34K buys me much better cheese than a Compass. To be fair, I wouldn’t pay $27K for a Soul but that’s because I’m a cheapskate and will probably never buy another new car. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Just to clear things up, the new Compass does not have a CVT. All transmissions are fully geared.

The base 6-speed automatic is an older design but used in a huge number of vehicles from all brands (Ford, Alfa, Volvo, Opel, Saab, Hyundai, Jaguar, and others)

There is the 9-speed auto from ZF that is shared with the Jeep Cherokee, Chrysler 200, Land Rover Evoque, a few Acuras, etc. 

Then there is the 6-speed manual that @ocnblu has. It is a Fiat Powertrain unit and I found it to be a nicely smooth shifting transmission when I drove it. 

In other markets, there is a diesel available which is paired to a 7-speed DCT. 

No CVTs at all. 

[G. David Felt]

@Drew Dowdell Awesome  Thank you for clearing that up as the web site is not clear and the forums seems to be unclear also about the 6 spd. Even Jeeps descriptions tends to imply cvt.

Great to know they totally dumped the cvt crap tranny's.

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Then there is the 6-speed manual that @ocnblu has. It is a Fiat Powertrain unit and I found it to be a nicely smooth shifting transmission when I drove it. 

*hates Tesla*

*Buys FIAT stuff*

(Not to you Drew but quoted because..easy..)

We shouldn't be surprised that a Fiat owned/operated site isn't helpful. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

*hates Tesla*

*Buys FIAT stuff*

(Not to you Drew but quoted because..easy..)

Fiat can be very hit or miss, I agree there.  But in this case, the 6-speed manual is a good one. 

To be honest, it's the 2.4 liter Tigershark that would be more on my radar and that's a Hyundai / Chrysler unit.  They have been slowly but surely improving the NVH on that over the years.  I drove the New Compass back to back with the Rogue Sport and it easily beat the Rogue Sport in engine refinement.... I realize that a Nissan 4-cylinder isn't a really high bar.

 

[surreal1272]

46 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Just to clear things up, the new Compass does not have a CVT. All transmissions are fully geared.

The base 6-speed automatic is an older design but used in a huge number of vehicles from all brands (Ford, Alfa, Volvo, Opel, Saab, Hyundai, Jaguar, and others)

There is the 9-speed auto from ZF that is shared with the Jeep Cherokee, Chrysler 200, Land Rover Evoque, a few Acuras, etc. 

Then there is the 6-speed manual that @ocnblu has. It is a Fiat Powertrain unit and I found it to be a nicely smooth shifting transmission when I drove it. 

In other markets, there is a diesel available which is paired to a 7-speed DCT. 

No CVTs at all. 

Very true but early reviews (as I was alluding to earlier) have not been glowing on either of the automatics. It’s a shame because it looks far better than its competition but it is held back by the Powertrain on top of being way too much money. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Very true but early reviews (as I was alluding to earlier) have not been glowing on either of the automatics. It’s a shame because it looks far better than its competition but it is held back by the Powertrain on top of being way too much money. 

I haven't driven the 6-speed auto... but it's only available in the FWD base model Compass, so I think the take rate will be too low to matter. 

The ZF 9HP fuss is much ado about nothing.  It had some early teething issues, but I've not had any even minor issues with it in a while.  It shifts smooth and goes about its business without getting in the way.  The problem arises when it is paired with engines having mediocre low-end torque like the 2.4 Tigershark. In that scenario, the transmission will shift more often than people are used to in a futile hunt for more torque.  It's not the transmission's fault, it's just doing the best it can with the amount of torque being provided. 

With that, I feel that the 9HP is getting a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve. It is just like any other transmission when paired with weaksauce a engine. Given the choice between the Rogue Sport CVT or the Compass 9HP, I'll pick the 9HP every day of the week and twice on Sundays. 

That isn't to say that I dislike CVTs, but the Nissan CVT is another one that does best with an engine with torque. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Not even close to worth it. $34K buys me much better cheese than a Compass. To be fair, I wouldn’t pay $27K for a Soul but that’s because I’m a cheapskate and will probably never buy another new car. 

Good sarcasm is lost on the proletariat, apparently.

In all honesty I think the reason that I have so much trouble with the Soul is that I had an original xB and loved it and the Soul reminds me of that car....and the fact that that car is no longer in my driveway.

It is a fine automobile...but it really rubs me the wrong way for some un-known reason. I like to think of myself as a rational person...but I am far from rational at times. Especially with regard to cars.

27k would buy me a GTI and 34K would start getting me into R territory in the Golf lineup.  Alternately, WRX or STI.  But I am really beginning to think I have zero imagination in terms of modern cars.

Kia is also kind of like Ford to me in that they are probably a fine product, but I have known enough people who have had serious issues with them that I do not really trust them.

In response to Olds/Drew...and yes, Nissan is doing better with Rouge CVT tuning.  we ahd one as a rental recently and i would rate it as acceptable.  But I would agree the 9 speed is better.

[surreal1272]

34 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Good sarcasm is lost on the proletariat, apparently.

In all honesty I think the reason that I have so much trouble with the Soul is that I had an original xB and loved it and the Soul reminds me of that car....and the fact that that car is no longer in my driveway.

It is a fine automobile...but it really rubs me the wrong way for some un-known reason. I like to think of myself as a rational person...but I am far from rational at times. Especially with regard to cars.

27k would buy me a GTI and 34K would start getting me into R territory in the Golf lineup.  Alternately, WRX or STI.  But I am really beginning to think I have zero imagination in terms of modern cars.

Kia is also kind of like Ford to me in that they are probably a fine product, but I have known enough people who have had serious issues with them that I do not really trust them.

In response to Olds/Drew...and yes, Nissan is doing better with Rouge CVT tuning.  we ahd one as a rental recently and i would rate it as acceptable.  But I would agree the 9 speed is better.

Oh I understood the sarcasm but it merited a response nonetheless. 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

*hates Tesla*

*Buys FIAT stuff*

(Not to you Drew but quoted because..easy..)

We shouldn't be surprised that a Fiat owned/operated site isn't helpful. 

Because his employer is of an FCA dealership.

On 10/29/2017 at 8:52 AM, ocnblu said:

Oh no you dih int compare the much loved, historically rich and venerable Pontiac brand to a Kia Soul.

Yes...Pontiac...

Like Pontiac's soul (pun intended) has never been compromised leaving behind a legacy LESS worthy of a Kia Soul...

Hey look! Trans Am's snowflake wheels!

It MUST be a REAL Pontiac! Not some crappy European econobox underneath...a crappy European econobox that started the brand's demise...

Chevy phoqued itself with these 2 cars...there was no reason for Pontiac to do the same...

Yes. Yes.

NEW FUN!

Front wheel drive for the brand that builds excitement. A very badge engineered shyte box Chevy Citation at that!

Hey...at least its a coupe, right?!

 

(Daewoo) (Yes Korean) (but via Opel's Kadett...some serious clusterphoques involved in this one)

 

Hey look!

There is an SUV craze going on! Its the early 2000s and Pontiac really has no SUV or CUV.

So...lets take a MINI-PHOQUING-VAN from Chevy that GM also uses in Europe and sells it as an Opel which makes THAT clusterphoque too big for Europe and useless for America...and we make a make-shift SUV with it...

We will also make it ugly as hell just because...we can...because we are PONTIAC...we build excitement..

We will call it Aztek...with a 'K' not a 'C' because we are clever!

 

And last but not least...we will produce a car JOINTLY with another car company...TOYOTA...because THEIR cars HAVE soul! Well...they did when the Matrix and Vibe were sold.

And the Vibe is a REAL Pontiac because plastic body cladding!

 

IRONY:

Before there was a Kia Soul...there was a Nissan Cube...

Before there was a Nissan Cube...there was a Scion Xb...(Maybe the Scion came before the Nissan Cube...it dont matter...both are weird little Japanese phenomenons that sold well enough in America...)

Before there was the Toyota's Scion Xb...there was...

Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe...

So...yeah...

Kia Soul CAN be DIRECTLY compared to Pontiac via the Matrix...

And the Matrix has all those cars I posted as a lineage...

And there are MORE fake and soulless  Pontiacs I could post...but those were sold ONLY in Canada...so you 'Mericans were spared!

Edited October 30, 2017 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 Truly EXCITEMENT!!!  

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Because his employer is of an FCA dealership.

Ahhhh I just find it a little ironic that one would rip Tesla and all of the EVs for being junk yet... they purchased a FIAT owned vehicle.. FIAT!!

[Robert Hall]

Oddly I liked the Cube, maybe because most of my career, I've worked in office cubicles...(cubelife4evr was my handle on one forum )  It's too bad they never did a Nissan Cube Herman Miller Edition, with Herman Miller-designed office chair style seats, cubicle fabric on the door panels, etc. Maybe with Steelcase file cabinets in the cargo area...

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Ahhhh I just find it a little ironic that one would rip Tesla and all of the EVs for being junk yet... they purchased a FIAT owned vehicle.. FIAT!!

Unlike our Amish-region friend, I've never dissed Tesla and EVs--I want to see Tesla succeed as I am a fan of Silicon Valley tech companies, since I'm a techie...and I like EVs from the technology angle, not to mention the torque..interesting seeing the evolution of them... and I did buy a Fiat-owned vehicle..though it is of German-American origin more than Italian...

Edited October 30, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

At least with his Fiat...Tony fixes it again...

With my Ford...Its found on the road dead.

In the beginning...it WAS fix or repair daily, but Sam got tired of doing that.

Sam lacked the passion that Tony has!

Tony IS Italian after all!

Italians OOOOOOZE passion!

***************************************

I never liked the  Cube or the Scion Xb.

I ALWAYS liked the Matrix and Vibe!

I like the Kia Soul!  Funky and useful and spunky and RELIABLE!

What is there not to like?!

 

The Cube and Scion were just too Japanesey anime cartooney for me to like.

But I did welcome them in the car scene as they were definitely not cookie cutter.  Every time I see one today, I smile! Breaks the monotony of the same old, same old of seeing a sea of boring SUVs and CUVs!  (I am talking about The Cube...I dont think the Xb was sold in Canada, and if it was, I havent seen any on the road)

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 .I dont think the Xb was sold in Canada, and if it was, I havent seen any on the road)

 

Did Canada have the Scion brand? 

[oldshurst442]

Just now, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Did Canada have the Scion brand? 

I think only the last 2 years of Scion.

[G. David Felt]

KIA = Kill It Again!  

[ocnblu]

Dfelt the six speed auto on the front wheel drive Compass is not a CVT.  CVTs do not have "speeds" dear.

[ocnblu]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Ahhhh I just find it a little ironic that one would rip Tesla and all of the EVs for being junk yet... they purchased a FIAT owned vehicle.. FIAT!!

Ya know... FIAT has been around since 1899... so they must be doing something right.  Meanwhile clock is ticking on Tesla.  So yes I will continue with or without your permission.

I hereby challenge oldshurst442 to post only 3-word comments on C&G for the next 3 weeks.

[ocnblu]

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Nissan is doing better with Rouge CVT tuning

Rouge tuning? 

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Ya know... FIAT has been around since 1899... so they must be doing something right.  Meanwhile clock is ticking on Tesla.  So yes I will continue with or without your permission.

I hereby challenge oldshurst442 to post only 3-word comments on C&G for the next 3 weeks.

I will take damn near any EV over any Fiat. Oh and being around since 1899 doesn’t mean squat in the country that sent them packing in the eighties for their many $h! boxes. 

[ocnblu]

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I will take damn near any EV over any Fiat. Oh and being around since 1899 doesn’t mean squat in the country that sent them packing in the eighties for their many $h! boxes. 

Consider it an early Xmas present.  You're welcome.

[oldshurst442]

@ocnblu

Truth hurts about:

1. Your employer

2. Pontiac

 

The  thing is...I got an avatar that oozes Pontiachismo!

YOU had old maids as an avatar...WHERE'S THE BEEF?!

And now you got a schizo dude!

How fitting is that???!!!

 

I found the other post hilare!

But an eye for an eye...

And yeah...'bout that thing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by oldshurst442