Porsche News: Rumorpile: Porsche Demands $234 Million From Audi Over the Diesel Emission Mess

[William Maley]

As if the Volkswagen Group needed more headaches, a new report says there's a bit of infighting between Audi and Porsche.

German tabloid Bild reports that Porsche is seeking 200 million Euros (about $234 million) from Audi to cover costs from the diesel emission scandal. Reportedly, Porsche management delivered this claim in a letter to their counterparts at Audi. Bild doesn't mention any source, so take this report with a fair amount of salt.

When reached for comment by Reuters, a Porsche spokesman said internal issues were not open for public discussion. An Audi spokesperson declined to comment.

This dispute stems from Audi admitting back in November 2015 that its 3.0L TDI V6 was fitted with a defeat device. One of those models using the V6 was the Porsche Cayenne.

Source: Bild, Reuters

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[G. David Felt]

Totally expected and a waste of time unless VW really keeps all the buckets seperate then ouch for Audi.

[Drew Dowdell]

The ownership structure set up between Porsche, VW, and Audi is so confusing, I'd have to whiteboard it out to fully understand it.  There are no less than three companies in Germany named Porsche.  

Porsche SE owns 52% of VW AG... Porsche SE is a holding company.

VW AG owns 100% of Porsche AG... Porsche AG is a company that builds cars.

Porsche AG owns 100% of Porsche Consulting GmbH..... not sure what Porsche Consulting GmbH does.

Audi AG (which trades under the stock ticker NSU, an old company Auto Union acquired) is 100% owned by VW AG, but is legally a separate company from VW.   

Audi AG also owns Ducati, Lamborghini, and... curiously... Audi Sport GmbH (formerly Quattro GmbH).  Never heard of that last one?  They build cars, but they don't sell to the public.  Audi Sport GmbH builds all of the RS models, sells them to Audi AG who then distributes and sells the vehicles. They also make the S-Line parts for the Audi AG cars.   Why they need this super confusing structure, I don't know.....

 

So... when the article says Porsche is demanding money from Audi.... it still doesn't narrow down enough who is demanding money from whom.

I wonder if VAG could shave a bunch more costs by simplifying their corporate structure(s) substantially. 

[G. David Felt]

50 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ownership structure set up between Porsche, VW, and Audi is so confusing, I'd have to whiteboard it out to fully understand it.  There are no less than three companies in Germany named Porsche.  

Porsche SE owns 52% of VW AG... Porsche SE is a holding company.

VW AG owns 100% of Porsche AG... Porsche AG is a company that builds cars.

Porsche AG owns 100% of Porsche Consulting GmbH..... not sure what Porsche Consulting GmbH does.

Audi AG (which trades under the stock ticker NSU, an old company Auto Union acquired) is 100% owned by VW AG, but is legally a separate company from VW.   

Audi AG also owns Ducati, Lamborghini, and... curiously... Audi Sport GmbH (formerly Quattro GmbH).  Never heard of that last one?  They build cars, but they don't sell to the public.  Audi Sport GmbH builds all of the RS models, sells them to Audi AG who then distributes and sells the vehicles. They also make the S-Line parts for the Audi AG cars.   Why they need this super confusing structure, I don't know.....

 

So... when the article says Porsche is demanding money from Audi.... it still doesn't narrow down enough who is demanding money from whom.

I wonder if VAG could shave a bunch more costs by simplifying their corporate structure(s) substantially. 

WOW  That is just one big mess and me think the unions is just as much responsible for the mess as the mgmt.

[Robert Hall]

I've read of Porsche Consulting in one of the car mags a few years ago.  They do speciality auto engineering consulting for other car makers on the down low. Like helping Hyundai design a cylinder head or Proton design a suspension.  ( not actual examples but hypothetical).   Kind of like what Lotus has done over the years, but without the publicity.  

There is/was also Porsche Design, not sure where that fit in..they did things like bicycles, purses, laptop cases, etc..

Edited October 9, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

20 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I've read of Porsche Consulting in one of the car mags a few years ago.  They do speciality auto engineering consulting for other car makers on the down low. Like helping Hyundai design a cylinder head or Proton design a suspension.  ( not actual examples but hypothetical).   Kind of like what Lotus has done over the years, but without the publicity.  

There is/was also Porsche Design, not sure where that fit in..they did things like bicycles, purses, laptop cases, etc..

Cool, thanks. Porsche Design GmbH is probably 50% owned by Porsche SE and 25% owned by Ducati AG who is owned by Porsche AG who is owned by VW AG who is 50% owned by Porsche SE....

Lamborghini has a similar design company who is probably owned by...  Oh forget it!

[riviera74]

18 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ownership structure set up between Porsche, VW, and Audi is so confusing, I'd have to whiteboard it out to fully understand it.  There are no less than three companies in Germany named Porsche.  

Porsche SE owns 52% of VW AG... Porsche SE is a holding company.

VW AG owns 100% of Porsche AG... Porsche AG is a company that builds cars.

Porsche AG owns 100% of Porsche Consulting GmbH..... not sure what Porsche Consulting GmbH does.

Audi AG (which trades under the stock ticker NSU, an old company Auto Union acquired) is 100% owned by VW AG, but is legally a separate company from VW.   

Audi AG also owns Ducati, Lamborghini, and... curiously... Audi Sport GmbH (formerly Quattro GmbH).  Never heard of that last one?  They build cars, but they don't sell to the public.  Audi Sport GmbH builds all of the RS models, sells them to Audi AG who then distributes and sells the vehicles. They also make the S-Line parts for the Audi AG cars.   Why they need this super confusing structure, I don't know.....

 

So... when the article says Porsche is demanding money from Audi.... it still doesn't narrow down enough who is demanding money from whom.

I wonder if VAG could shave a bunch more costs by simplifying their corporate structure(s) substantially. 

They should radically simplify the corporate structure, just to save $$$$.  The only problem is is that VW Group is partially owned by the German Lander (or state) of Lower Saxony.  Simplifying the corporate ownership structure will probably require privatization first, then a buyout under one owner.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

They should radically simplify the corporate structure, just to save $$$$.  The only problem is is that VW Group is partially owned by the German Lander (or state) of Lower Saxony.  Simplifying the corporate ownership structure will probably require privatization first, then a buyout under one owner.

Unions will probably resist as they do not want change as it could affect their golden goose.