Industry News: Welcome to the Era of Expensive, Luxury Trucks

[William Maley]

The State Fair of Texas began last week and truck manufacturers were out in force with new models to tempt consumers in the largest truck market in the U.S. Both Ford and Ram Trucks rolled out new luxury trims of their pickups - Ford with the Limited and Ram with the Longhorn Southfork. Both trims can easily reach $100,000 which to some is pushing it. But marketers at the truck manufacturers tell Automotive News they don't know where the ceiling is on how much consumers are willing to spend.

"It's hard to guess how big the market is. I don't think trucks have found a ceiling yet. You get customers who want every bell and whistle," said Todd Eckert, Ford's truck group marketing manager.

"For us, it is not about the dollar amount. It's about meeting the needs of the customers. We see an opportunity in the marketplace to bring the Limited trim to Super Duty. We know customers will demand it."

Luxury models are in demand and truck manufacturers are having a difficult time keeping them in stock. For example, more than half of Ford's F-Series Super Duty trucks sold are the high-end models - Lariat, King Ranch, and Limited.

As there is no ceiling yet, manufacturers are considering going even further. Sandor Piszar, Chevrolet truck marketing director said they have found a group of customers that are willing to pay "for a bigger, more luxurious and more capable truck."

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[Robert Hall]

Where do HD Denalis top out at?   I assume GM has some action in this area...

[Frisky Dingo]

And the funny thing is, even the highest of the highest ones are still way behind in tech and features that are now prevalent in luxury cars. 

 

Take, or instance, the current crop of the half-ton segment afaik- the F-150 Limited. It has no HUD. It doesn't have swiveling/adaptive headlights. It doesn't have sun shades in any of the back windows. It only has dual-zone climate control. Front driver's seat is only 10-way power. It doesn't have a massage function. No heated windshield. Audio systems are nowhere near on the same level as European lux sedans. Materials are vastly inferior. Switchgear is, too. No soft close doors. 

Those are just things right off the top of my head. I'm sure if I could think of more if I gave it a little thought.

[William Maley]

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Where do HD Denalis top out at?   I assume GM has some action in this area...

About low $80,000s.

[riviera74]

5 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

And the funny thing is, even the highest of the highest ones are still way behind in tech and features that are now prevalent in luxury cars. 

 

Take, or instance, the current crop of the half-ton segment afaik- the F-150 Limited. It has no HUD. It doesn't have swiveling/adaptive headlights. It doesn't have sun shades in any of the back windows. It only has dual-zone climate control. Front driver's seat is only 10-way power. It doesn't have a massage function. No heated windshield. Audio systems are nowhere near on the same level as European lux sedans. Materials are vastly inferior. Switchgear is, too. No soft close doors. 

Those are just things right off the top of my head. I'm sure if I could think of more if I gave it a little thought.

It's still a pickup truck, not a BMW 7 series.  Chances are that Cadillac and (perhaps) Lincoln will do well here, given the parentage of both.

[Robert Hall]

Just now, William Maley said:

About low $80,000s.

So there is room to go higher with a Cadillac Escalade branded HD pickup..   

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

And the funny thing is, even the highest of the highest ones are still way behind in tech and features that are now prevalent in luxury cars. 

 

Take, or instance, the current crop of the half-ton segment afaik- the F-150 Limited. It has no HUD. It doesn't have swiveling/adaptive headlights. It doesn't have sun shades in any of the back windows. It only has dual-zone climate control. Front driver's seat is only 10-way power. It doesn't have a massage function. No heated windshield. Audio systems are nowhere near on the same level as European lux sedans. Materials are vastly inferior. Switchgear is, too. No soft close doors. 

Those are just things right off the top of my head. I'm sure if I could think of more if I gave it a little thought.

Very good point.  And it is because you can only dress up a work truck F150 so much.  The vehicle isn't designed in the first place with all that in mind.  This is one reason the Escalade doesn't have a panoramic glass roof, while Range Rover and Mercedes GLS do.

[Frisky Dingo]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

It's still a pickup truck, not a BMW 7 series.  Chances are that Cadillac and (perhaps) Lincoln will do well here, given the parentage of both.

 

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Very good point.  And it is because you can only dress up a work truck F150 so much.  The vehicle isn't designed in the first place with all that in mind.  This is one reason the Escalade doesn't have a panoramic glass roof, while Range Rover and Mercedes GLS do.

 

Hey, I'm not saying there's reasons they don't. I'm simply pointing out there's lots of room for them to continue to climb upmarket. The opportunity for more markup and greater profits is there.

[balthazar]

In talking about uber-luxury trucks -- don't assume all the same features high end luxury sedans are sought after in a high end truck. These are not the same buyers and these wouldn't be cross-shopped merely because both (potentially) had massaging seats. Different demographic that values different features.

[Drew Dowdell]

It was only a matter of time... even a non-HD Yukon XL Denali can get to $80k. The 2018 Expedition MAX Platinum goes to $84k

[smk4565]

Ford should build an F350 Lightning Raptor King Ranch Titanium Platinum Black Label and sell it for $149,999.

Can't have too many trim levels of the same truck.

[Frisky Dingo]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

In talking about uber-luxury trucks -- don't assume all the same features high end luxury sedans are sought after in a high end truck. These are not the same buyers and these wouldn't be cross-shopped merely because both (potentially) had massaging seats. Different demographic that values different features.

Unless you've been in the automotive business and sold both, don't assume they're not.

[balthazar]

That's how the F-series outsells everything in the country (besides being a very capable & competitive vehicle) - variations and packages.

3 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Unless you've been in the automotive business and sold both, don't assume they're not.

Do tell: do high end sedan buyers ask for towing capacities and shift on the fly AWD? How about better ground clearance and different cabin & cargo dimensions/volumes in the same line?

[Frisky Dingo]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That's how the F-series outsells everything in the country (besides being a very capable & competitive vehicle) - variations and packages.

Do tell: do high end sedan buyers ask for towing capacities and shift on the fly AWD? How about better ground clearance and different cabin & cargo dimensions/volumes in the same line?

The fact that you seem to think most truck buyers are asking those questions says all I need to know, lol!!

[balthazar]

I didn't say truck buyers WERE asking that... of trucks.
My question is, are sedan buyers asking those questions. Because your implication was that in order to be 'hi-end', trucks are lacking high end sedan features.

Aren't sedans lacking truck features?

Edited October 3, 2017 by balthazar

[daves87rs]

Just wow.....

[G. David Felt]

Wish GM Trucks had some of the Escalade features. Next autos must have HUD, that is one of the best tech ever and every auto should have them for safety. Especially Tesla 3

[Drew Dowdell]

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Wish GM Trucks had some of the Escalade features. Next autos must have HUD, that is one of the best tech ever and every auto should have them for safety. Especially Tesla 3

eh... only if done well..... the bad ones can be distracting

[ccap41]

I'm fine w/o HUD. It isn't something I would pay extra for. It seems like one of the most gimmicky features on the market. Regardless you're refocusing your eyes on something different for a second or two.  

[G. David Felt]

27 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'm fine w/o HUD. It isn't something I would pay extra for. It seems like one of the most gimmicky features on the market. Regardless you're refocusing your eyes on something different for a second or two.  

Totally disagree, test drive an Escalade and you will see how you have your info in your peripheral vision all the time never taking your eyes off the road. Love that I can have all the info I am interested in in that floating window on the screen.

Cadillac and Corvette HUDs are excellent.

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Totally disagree, test drive an Escalade and you will see how you have your info in your peripheral vision all the time never taking your eyes off the road. Love that I can have all the info I am interested in in that floating window on the screen.

Cadillac and Corvette HUDs are excellent.

He's not saying that is isn't good. He's saying that he wouldn't want to pay for it because he doesn't find it useful.  I kinda agree with him here, but also with the caveat that there are good HUDs and distracting HUDs, so not only would it be something I'm skeptical about paying for, I would also cast a critical eye on if it was a good one or a bad one. 

[G. David Felt]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

He's not saying that is isn't good. He's saying that he wouldn't want to pay for it because he doesn't find it useful.  I kinda agree with him here, but also with the caveat that there are good HUDs and distracting HUDs, so not only would it be something I'm skeptical about paying for, I would also cast a critical eye on if it was a good one or a bad one. 

I get your point, I should have also mentioned that after having been in a 2018 Escalade for the last week as my ride was in the shop for maintenance and they did not have a part, so had to wait, I have come to really appreciate the HUD.

This especially being in thinking of what Tesla has done with the Tesla 3. Single screen would have been fine if a HUD was also incorporated with it so the driver never has to take their eyes off the road. 

HUD is one of the few safety features I do feel is worth having in all auto's to minimize taking one's eyes off the road.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Totally disagree, test drive an Escalade and you will see how you have your info in your peripheral vision all the time never taking your eyes off the road. Love that I can have all the info I am interested in in that floating window on the screen.

Cadillac and Corvette HUDs are excellent.

But you cannot focus on both the road and something 18 inches in front of you. Regardless your eyes are not paying attention to the road perfectly so if I'm taking my focus of the road for a second I don't see why I should pay that premium.  What's that package cost in an Escalade? I'd assume it is part of a multi-thousand dollar package. But, with that said, I may very well want other things in said package and get it anyway. 

I haven't used a modern HUD but I just don't find a real value to it. The last HUD I used was my mom's '02 Grand Prix. It's neat, but seems quite gimmicky, if you ask me. 

After looking at some pictures online they seem to be cramming more and more information into the small display on your windshield and it almost seems cluttered. I mean what they do is cool and all.. but no thank you. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

with the caveat that there are good HUDs and distracting HUDs,

After looking at some random HUD pictures online some seem much cleaner and simpler than others. I'd assume the clean and simple ones are the least distracting ones. Those ones wouldn't bother me at all. I still don't see the value in paying for that but if it is part of a package, I wouldn't be upset. 

[Drew Dowdell]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

After looking at some random HUD pictures online some seem much cleaner and simpler than others. I'd assume the clean and simple ones are the least distracting ones. Those ones wouldn't bother me at all. I still don't see the value in paying for that but if it is part of a package, I wouldn't be upset. 

Nearly all of the modern ones, if not absolutely all of them, allow you to customize how much information is on the display.  From experience with the GM ones, you can cut the information down to just speed, or also include fuel and rpm and iPod track or navigation directions.

[G. David Felt]

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

After looking at some random HUD pictures online some seem much cleaner and simpler than others. I'd assume the clean and simple ones are the least distracting ones. Those ones wouldn't bother me at all. I still don't see the value in paying for that but if it is part of a package, I wouldn't be upset. 

 

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Nearly all of the modern ones, if not absolutely all of them, allow you to customize how much information is on the display.  From experience with the GM ones, you can cut the information down to just speed, or also include fuel and rpm and iPod track or navigation directions.

Totally understand and get the points being made and agree with Drew. GM allows total customization. For me, speed, range on the fuel tank and the music station info is what I had for my setting on HUD. Wife had other stuff. Love the customization of HUD.

[Robert Hall]

Never had a vehicle with a HUD, but I can see the utility.  I have the center info panel between the gauges configured in my Jeep and use it often (things like tire pressure, gas mileage, oil life, compass direction (the most important to me), trip odometer, etc) , but you still have to look down a bit to see it...

Edited October 3, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Never had a vehicle with a HUD, but I can see the utility.  I have the center info panel between the gauges configured in my Jeep and use it often (things like tire pressure, gas mileage, oil life, compass direction (the most important to me), trip odometer, etc) , but you still have to look down a bit to see it...

Center stack in the Jeep is good and useful, I like it. Once you have a HUD, even better. Test drive an auto with HUD and you will be impressed at the customization of info you can have there.

[Frisky Dingo]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

I didn't say truck buyers WERE asking that... of trucks.
My question is, are sedan buyers asking those questions. Because your implication was that in order to be 'hi-end', trucks are lacking high end sedan features.

Aren't sedans lacking truck features?

 

They're not lacking luxury features.

[ccap41]

I can't see too many scenarios in which an S Class buyer is debating if he/she wants that or an F350 Limited. 

[smk4565]

57 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I can't see too many scenarios in which an S Class buyer is debating if he/she wants that or an F350 Limited. 

Agreed.  I think the question is how much will truck buyers willing to spend and what do they want. 

[ccap41]

See now I can see wealthy truck buyers wanting to fork out the cash but I don't see them cross shopping with a 7 Series or an S Class at the 80-100k price bracket. 

People underestimate who has money just because they decided to spend 60k on a truck and not on a car. 

[smk4565]

I think in general a pick up truck buyer will over extend themselves to buy a truck more so than a luxury car buyer will.  I would guess the 6-7 year loan is more common on pickups than luxury cars and the average home value of a pick up buyer way lower than a luxury car buyer and a big income difference.  

I am sure there are some that will spend more on a top end truck but I imagine 99% of F150 owners aren't going to trade up to a $85,000 truck it will be way out of their range.

And these trucks still have solid rear axels, top speed of 110 mph, there isn't much engineering that needed done like there is on the big luxury sedans.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

They're not lacking luxury features.

Again- not the question I asked.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I can't see too many scenarios in which an S Class buyer is debating if he/she wants that or an F350 Limited. 

No, I don't think so either. And there's very tangible reasons why- an OEM can put power whatsis's in any vehicle, but there are features and capabilites a truck offers that a luxury sedan cannot. If that weren't true, trucks would not still be riding the longest marketshare rise perhaps in the history of the industry.

[G. David Felt]

51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think in general a pick up truck buyer will over extend themselves to buy a truck more so than a luxury car buyer will.  I would guess the 6-7 year loan is more common on pickups than luxury cars and the average home value of a pick up buyer way lower than a luxury car buyer and a big income difference.  

I am sure there are some that will spend more on a top end truck but I imagine 99% of F150 owners aren't going to trade up to a $85,000 truck it will be way out of their range.

And these trucks still have solid rear axels, top speed of 110 mph, there isn't much engineering that needed done like there is on the big luxury sedans.

Yet idiots that cannot haul anything but their over inflated ego badge snob self will spend 6 digits on an over rated s-class or g-wagon.

So end result is there are idiots all over rich and poor buying over priced crap from Germany and America as well as Asia.

In regards to the Loans, most Asian and American auto's are bought, Germans hold the award for Leases as most are badge snobs that will live a life of eternal payment and never really probably be able to afford that car they drive.

[regfootball]

20 grand off MSRP 11 months from now

[smk4565]

35 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet idiots that cannot haul anything but their over inflated ego badge snob self will spend 6 digits on an over rated s-class or g-wagon.

So end result is there are idiots all over rich and poor buying over priced crap from Germany and America as well as Asia.

In regards to the Loans, most Asian and American auto's are bought, Germans hold the award for Leases as most are badge snobs that will live a life of eternal payment and never really probably be able to afford that car they drive.

The average household income for an S-class buyer is $325,000 a year ($371,000 according to Motor Trend 2013), $375,000 for an E-class wagon buyer and about $200,000 a year for E-class sedan buyer.

And I found some numbers from 2012, average Silverado buyer had household income of $64,000 and $72,000 for the F150.  The average full size pick up could easily be over $40k, so you are talking 2/3 the price of the truck is their annual salary.   And on the HD and Super Duty with higher price that would go up even more.

[ccap41]

Those trucks have a MUCH larger % resale value after 1, 2, 5 years down the road. 

Look those numbers up. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The average household income for an S-class buyer is $325,000 a year ($371,000 according to Motor Trend 2013), $375,000 for an E-class wagon buyer and about $200,000 a year for E-class sedan buyer.

The stats don't remotely make sense- why would there be any difference for the same make/model but a different bodystyle? It's statistical nonsense.

Silverado base MSRP is $27.7K, but even mercedes buyers don't pay MSRP. And there are a lot more low-option Silverados sold than high end MBs at base MSRP, so the loose extrapolation on "$40K" is groundless.

[smk4565]

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The stats don't remotely make sense- why would there be any difference for the same make/model but a different bodystyle? It's statistical nonsense.

Silverado base MSRP is $27.7K, but even mercedes buyers don't pay MSRP. And there are a lot more low-option Silverados sold than high end MBs at base MSRP, so the loose extrapolation on "$40K" is groundless.

Those are real stats, E-class wagon buyers are loaded, which is a primary reason that they still make it.  These are people that don't want a crossover, but want space and probably own wineries in California or are professors at Princeton and wear tweed jackets.

A base Silverado is $28k but a High Country is $58k, so $40 seemed liked a reasonable middle to me.  Since you brought it up I went to TrueCar, and it defaulted to a Silverado double cab LT 4x4 which an average price of $39,231.  The F150 defaulted to an XLT SuperCrew with a 5.5 foot box for $34,911 with an MSRP of $42,350, there is a fire sale on those I guess. 

[ccap41]

Did you look up the resale on any Mercedes vs US trucks? 

[Frisky Dingo]

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

Again- not the question I asked.

No, I don't think so either. And there's very tangible reasons why- an OEM can put power whatsis's in any vehicle, but there are features and capabilites a truck offers that a luxury sedan cannot. If that weren't true, trucks would not still be riding the longest marketshare rise perhaps in the history of the industry.

 

The question you are asking makes no sense.

 

Do sedans have truck features? Of course not, they're not trucks!!

 

Truck features =/= luxury features and technology.

[FAPTurbo]

luxury sedan: sophisticate who made it and appreciates comforts

"luxury" truck: bubba's lost limb cheque came in the mail

[ccap41]

19 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

The question you are asking makes no sense.

 

Do sedans have truck features? Of course not, they're not trucks!!

 

Truck features =/= luxury features and technology.

Then why do trucks need sedan features? 

That's what he's getting at. 

[Frisky Dingo]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Then why do trucks need sedan features? 

That's what he's getting at. 

 

I'm not saying they do.

 

But on the flipside, why not put them on there? They have the same benefit in a truck as they do in a car.

 

I'm saying there's room to put more equipment on them. And the MFR's clearly seem to think there's buyers if they do. Lot's of truck buyers obviously do not use their trucks in the conventional manner. They're a status symbol as much as a Mercedes S Class. Throw more stuff on it, people will buy them. Just to have that image.

[ccap41]

You insinuated they are necessary. 

There is absolutely more room for improvement and I bet Ford, Ram, and GM are loving that there is still even more room to move them up market if these do well. If these do well and sell at nearly 100k... add those features for the hell of it and charge 110k. 

[Drew Dowdell]

These luxury trucks still have to be capable. So yes, they could probably add the massaging seats from the new navigator, but there aren't going to be any changes under the skin that would reduce capability. 

[Frisky Dingo]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You insinuated they are necessary. 

There is absolutely more room for improvement and I bet Ford, Ram, and GM are loving that there is still even more room to move them up market if these do well. If these do well and sell at nearly 100k... add those features for the hell of it and charge 110k. 

 

 

I did no such thing. I simply pointed out the difference in equipment between high end luxury cars, and high end trucks.

 

I personally think luxury trucks are stupid.

[G. David Felt]

8 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

 

I did no such thing. I simply pointed out the difference in equipment between high end luxury cars, and high end trucks.

 

I personally think luxury trucks are stupid.

Not picking a side on anything other than saying I would not say that luxury trucks are stupid, there are clearly many people that would like the luxury side of an Auto in a Pickup truck with the flexible use of the truck.

I for one will never be comfortable in a car, as such, I only drive full size SUV's and had planes to buy a fully loaded Cadillac EXT pickup till GM stupidly killed it. 

I think Cadillac should have a Luxury pickup, no reason to not have all the features found in a CT6 in a full size SUV and in a full Size Pickup.

We all have our differences of what we want to drive and yet many still want the luxury.

[ccap41]

50 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I only drive full size SUV's and had planes to buy a fully loaded Cadillac EXT pickup till GM stupidly killed it. 

*and a Chevy Bolt* Full size SUVs and a Chevy Bolt*

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I did no such thing. I simply pointed out the difference in equipment between high end luxury cars, and high end trucks.

The way things were worded they sounded like you think those are what makes a luxury vehicle a luxury vehicle and are necessary to be considered luxury. 

[G. David Felt]

Just now, ccap41 said:

*and a Chevy Bolt* Full size SUVs and a Chevy Bolt*

Yes, I was planning to get the Bolt for the wife, but the dash white v killed it for her. As a visual person she could not see herself driving the auto daily with such an ugly dash. If it was a solid black dash, she would have given her blessing and boom, been in a bolt.