Industry News: California Mulls Ban On Combustion Engines

[Drew Dowdell]

I understand the "why", I'm just venting the frustration that every time EV's come up there is some obscure reason they'd never work large scale because (insert highly specific and uncommon occurrence here). 

[ccap41]

And my personal biggest reason, is my location's charging network is sh!t still. It's home or nothing. Okay, there are some places but they're out of the way and unrealistic to charge at even if I am in that town/city(city hall, banks, or Joe Schmo's house). 

Would you prefer we all just hoot and holler for EV's and say how great they are and how they're the most practical vehicles? 

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And my personal biggest reason, is my location's charging network is sh!t still. It's home or nothing. Okay, there are some places but they're out of the way and unrealistic to charge at even if I am in that town/city(city hall, banks, or Joe Schmo's house). 

I understand your Personal reason. Yet you could Choose if you wanted to change your habits if one wanted to embrace an EV. Then at the same time lead the complaints to your local representatives about investing in the charging infrastructure to get more.

The west coast did this years ago and now we have a growing and well established network.

Personal Choice I get, change is harder for some than others. It is a choice.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And my personal biggest reason, is my location's charging network is sh!t still. It's home or nothing. Okay, there are some places but they're out of the way and unrealistic to charge at even if I am in that town/city(city hall, banks, or Joe Schmo's house). 

Would you prefer we all just hoot and holler for EV's and say how great they are and how they're the most practical vehicles? 

Do you regularly drive over 250 miles in a day?  I'm talking anything more than 2% of your driving.

[ccap41]

Why would I want to go out of my way THAT MUCH to charge my car? Why wouldn't I wait for the infrastructure to grow?

The vehicle's aren't anything that is so desirable that I would want to do that, yet. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Why would I want to go out of my way THAT MUCH to charge my car? Why wouldn't I wait for the infrastructure to grow?

The vehicle's aren't anything that is so desirable that I would want to do that, yet. 

You don't go out of your way... that's the point I'm trying to make.  How often do you go over 250 miles round trip in a single day?

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Do you regularly drive over 250 miles in a day?  I'm talking anything more than 2% of your driving.

Sh!t no. I've already said multiple times here that a Volt's 50ish mile range would be perfect for me and I'd only using gas, realistically, once a week. But I have the option and ability to just do whatever or go wherever I want because it also has a gas engine. 

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You don't go out of your way... that's the point I'm trying to make.  How often do you go over 250 miles round trip in a single day?

I would absolutely have to think differently(aka go out of your way) with a 100% EV than a gas engine. I'd have to make sure it is "topped off" daily for "just in case" stations where I have to drive 100 miles round trip because THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS SH!T AROUND HERE. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by ccap41

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Sh!t no. I've already said multiple times here that a Volt's 50ish mile range would be perfect for me and I'd only using gas, realistically, once a week. But I have the option and ability to just do whatever or go wherever I want because it also has a gas engine. 

Then that right there is my point.  You would plug in your EV every night when you were done... you'd start each morning with a 250 mile range. You'd NEVER stop for charging EVER in your daily routine.  If you're going on a longer trip, you're already out of your routine, and there are apps to plan your trip for charging if you're going to need it. 

You "fill up" literally every night, in the morning, unplug the car with a full charge and go. If your daily usage is less than 50 miles, you could go the entire work week without plugging it in. 

You would save so much in fuel costs, that if you absolutely needed to do a trip the EV couldn't do (and that factor is diminishing daily), that the money saved in fuel would rent you a nice car for the trip.

[G. David Felt]

@ccap41 If you would, I would love to know your zip code and current auto your driving.  I can then look at the average cost of gas and the average cost of a kWh of Electricity and post the comparison of you driving your car a month to an EV. It would be interesting to see plugging in at home with no more trips to the gas station versus your current routine.

I know for me, the Trailblazer SS AWD goes through $400 a month in Gas for 1200 miles driven a month. The Chevy Bolt would cost just under $30 a month. So the change not only covers the cost of the auto especially with some of the deals going on but I save big time.

[ccap41]

I've already posted my zip here yesterday or the day before but it's 62249. Currently still in my kickass(LOL)2016 Focus Hatch. 

 

39 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Then that right there is my point.  You would plug in your EV every night when you were done... you'd start each morning with a 250 mile range. You'd NEVER stop for charging EVER in your daily routine.  If you're going on a longer trip, you're already out of your routine, and there are apps to plan your trip for charging if you're going to need it. 

You "fill up" literally every night, in the morning, unplug the car with a full charge and go. If your daily usage is less than 50 miles, you could go the entire work week without plugging it in. 

You would save so much in fuel costs, that if you absolutely needed to do a trip the EV couldn't do (and that factor is diminishing daily), that the money saved in fuel would rent you a nice car for the trip.

Or... Just by a Volt and never have to worry about that. And it looks better than a Bolt, imo. 

But then we're past the whole drag racing thing that was brought up..

My statement there still holds true, unless they have a charger at the track for EVs they're not very practical for the sport quite yet. 

[G. David Felt]

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I've already posted my zip here yesterday or the day before but it's 62249. Currently still in my kickass(LOL)2016 Focus Hatch. 

So estimated Miles per month driven?

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

So estimated Miles per month driven?

About 1000

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

About 1000

OK, based on your zip code and I see you can choose who your power supplier is, here is the info I found and the costs of your ICE versus a Chevy Bolt.

ELECTRIC Rates for the Top 3 providers:

Constellation rate average 5.39 cents per kWh

Public Power rate average 5.95 cents per kWh

Direct Energy rate average 6 cents per kWh

Based on 24 month contract for an average of 5.78 cents per kWh across the 3 companies.

 

Gas price for Regular average cost per gallon - $2.64

 

Figure 12,000 miles a year

 

2016 Ford Focus Hatch rated at 26 city 36 highway EPA average of 30 mpg

12,000 / 30 = 400 gallons of gas a year or a cost of $1,056

Monthly cost of $88.00 for gas

 

Chevy Bolt 238 mile 60 kWh battery pack.

12,000 / 238 = 50.42 charges of the battery pack

60 * .0578 = $3.468 per battery pack charge at home.

Monthly cost for 1000 miles = $14.57

Yearly cost for 12,000 miles = $174.86

Course if I went with the Cheapest only rather than an average, then you are looking at the following:

60 * .0539 = $3.23 per battery pack charge.

Monthly Cost = $13.57

Yearly Cost = $162.86

[ykX]

@dfelt Actual electrical rates including taxes will be around $0.10 - $0.12 per kWh.

Bolt on regular power outlet charges about 4 miles of range per one hour, so 10 hours of charge will only provide 40 miles of range, 12 hours - 48 miles.  So realistically you need fast charger that provides 25 miles of range per one hour of charge time.  That is an upfront expense that has to be included as well.

Bolt is still will be cheaper then Focus but not by that much realistically.

Edited September 29, 2017 by ykX

[ccap41]

Good information dfelt!

Couple small things.. gas in my area is ~$0.20 cheaper. I paid $2.46/gallon last night and my average over the course of 7000 miles of driving has been 32.X mpg. I understand one can only realistically compare based on ratings but between those two things it tightens the gap some. 

All of this is also for a car that MSRP'd at 24k vs 37k(30k if you qualify for all of the fed tax credits. Which, I don't think I would qualify for all $7500).

Changing to 32mpg(I'll round down) and $2.50/gal

12,000/32 = 375 gallons x 2.50 = 937.50

$937 is nowhere near $162.86 but I'd have to own that car for... 

I'd save ~$774 a year owning the Bolt. 

6000/774 = 7.75 years. Plus, the additional cost of adding a charger to the home of(I might be off because I don't remember at this point) about $1000 to have it wired and the charger itself/ 

7000/774 = 9.04 years. It might be more economical but it is not saving me money, yet. 

Even at your $893 savings(1056 - 163) it would take me 7000/893 = 7.83 years to pay itself off.

For some who puts more miles on their vehicle or has steeper fuel prices to swing that payoff down to more like 5 years, TOTALLY worth it. Like yourself, who'd be replacing something getting less than 20mpg. That's also a huge factor. If I still had my Escape the number of years for payoff would come down drastically. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

@dfelt Actual electrical rates including taxes will be around $0.10 - $0.12 per kWh.

Bolt on regular power outlet charges about 4 miles of range per one hour, so 10 hours of charge will only provide 40 miles of range, 12 hours - 48 miles.  So realistically you need fast charger that provides 25 miles of range per one hour of charge time.  That is an upfront expense that has to be included as well.

Bolt is still will be cheaper then Focus but not by that much realistically.

Yet saving you trips to the local gas station and the ease of coming home, plugging in and enjoying your evening, then unplug in the morning, this is a change in habit from ICE auto's but also a nice change of not having to run out to fill up when you realize your day tomorrow just got longer in driving around due to some needed appointments or errands to do.

In regards to the tax thing, the prices I quote is off their web sites that says it includes local and state taxes. Same here in Washington, the figure quoted per kWh is with all taxes.

If you are seeing that big of a jump from 6 to 10 or more cents per kWh then you are over taxed and that is crazy. I will admit, I have seen some crazy stupid kWh rates on the east coast.

Big difference is when you compare the bolt cost to a compact CUV and the savings get even bigger.

Convenience of not having to run out, touch dirty pump handles and stand in the cold compared to coming home plugging in and enjoying your evening is a big win for me and the wife.

[G. David Felt]

@ccap41

Yes not knowing the local area, I compared it to the online average gas price for the area but I understand locally you can find cheaper gas.

So I know every state is different but it is worth looking into and finding out if you get any type of sales tax exemption for buying an EV over ICE. Here in Washington State you pay no sales tax on an EV auto. The Local power company will put in a 220V level 2 charger, the fastest allowed at any residential home in the US for only the installation cost and they will make it a simple 12 month interest free payment plan.

I would expect you to get the full $7,500 write off as GM has not hit the point yet where they have to start reducing the federal tax credit yet.

Here is the current list of all federal rebates for EV's and Hybrids:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

Here is the site where you can click on a state and it shows you the available incentives for Hybrid and EV auto's:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/state-electric-vehicle-incentives-state-chart.aspx

Very Cool all residents of IL are allowed to apply for and finance all PEV auto's at .5% 60 month loan. Other info there too.

[ccap41]

I would argue that plugging your car in every night and un plugging it every morning isn't saving you any more time in your week than going to the gas station. I fill up about every 10 days.. at 5-8 minutes.. It's about a wash with one's own time. Granted, I do understand one is at your home and one it not but overall time spent is about the same for unraveling a chord and raveling it back up. 

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/state-electric-vehicle-incentives-state-chart.aspx

Very Cool all residents of IL are allowed to apply for and finance all PEV auto's at .5% 60 month loan. Other info there too.

That's a very cool link and I think this one will be a huge leap for EVs. 

"Highway EVSE Installation Requirements: The Illinois Department of Transportation must install at least one EVSE at each interstate highway rest area where electrical service will reasonably permit by Jan. 1, 2016, or as soon as possible thereafter. "

Just across the river in Missouri: 

"Alternative Fueling Infrastructure Tax Credit: Between Jan. 1, 2015 and Jan. 1, 2018, S.B. 729 (2014) provides an income tax credit for the cost of installing a qualified alternative fueling station. The credit provides up to $1,500 for a residential applicant" 

 

[ykX]

@dfelt

I live in NJ so our electric rates indeed higher but on the other hand I don't have to pump my own gas

In any case I am all for electrical vehicles, especially considering I am an electrical engineer.  However, current battery technology make them still not completely ready for widespread use IMO.

I think in 5, maybe 10 years max we should see a real breakthrough in battery technology which will really make EVs take over.

[G. David Felt]

32 minutes ago, ykX said:

@dfelt

I live in NJ so our electric rates indeed higher but on the other hand I don't have to pump my own gas

In any case I am all for electrical vehicles, especially considering I am an electrical engineer.  However, current battery technology make them still not completely ready for widespread use IMO.

I think in 5, maybe 10 years max we should see a real breakthrough in battery technology which will really make EVs take over.

I cut that time in Half as I truly think Batteries are hitting on Moores Law and we already have amazing tech now, just look at EGO electric devices for the yard. 

https://egopowerplus.com/

EGO Mower, Blower and weed wacker are just awesome. I own them all and I love the AI monitoring of the battery to extend the Lio Life. I think this is what all EV auto's will do.

FYI, worked for a year and half in Princeton. Like Oregon the only two places left where they consider auto owners too stupid to pump their own gas. I found way to many idiots working the pumps with splashing gas on my auto to smacking it with the pump and scratching. 

Prefer to pump myself and be responsible for my own actions in that regards.

Glad you love not having to pump gas.

[ykX]

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I cut that time in Half as I truly think Batteries are hitting on Moores Law and we already have amazing tech now, just look at EGO electric devices for the yard. 

https://egopowerplus.com/

EGO Mower, Blower and weed wacker are just awesome. I own them all and I love the AI monitoring of the battery to extend the Lio Life. I think this is what all EV auto's will do.

FYI, worked for a year and half in Princeton. Like Oregon the only two places left where they consider auto owners too stupid to pump their own gas. I found way to many idiots working the pumps with splashing gas on my auto to smacking it with the pump and scratching. 

Prefer to pump myself and be responsible for my own actions in that regards.

Glad you love not having to pump gas.

EGO products use standard Lithium Ion batteries, nothing groundbreaking about them.  I recommended the mower to my friend and he is pretty happy with it so far.

Batteries need a completely new technology that currently exists, and a lot of universities and companies are working on it currently, some with pretty promising results.  However, it will take time until they become commercially available.

 

And I didn't say I love not having to pump my gas, just that I don't have to.  Though, occasionally when there is a particularly nasty weather, I am happy I don't have to pump myself

Edited September 29, 2017 by ykX

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

EGO Mower, Blower and weed wacker are just awesome. I own them all and I love the AI monitoring of the battery to extend the Lio Life. I think this is what all EV auto's will do.

Not trying to sound like a dick but I'm lad you put your money where your mouth is. 

I'll likely seriously consider an electric weed wacker but my lawn is too large for an electric push mower. 

This will be the EV lawn mower I'd be investing in... http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/robotic-lawn-mowers/

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

I found way to many idiots working the pumps with splashing gas on my auto to smacking it with the pump and scratching. 

That would piss me off so much. 

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Not trying to sound like a dick but I'm lad you put your money where your mouth is. 

I'll likely seriously consider an electric weed wacker but my lawn is too large for an electric push mower. 

This will be the EV lawn mower I'd be investing in... http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/robotic-lawn-mowers/

I have a total of 1 acre to mow. I love to work out but still I bought the EGO Mower with the self driving wheels to I just direct it and get my steps in.  Gotta keep the wife happy with a fit me.

Gotta Say that Robotic Mower is very COOL!

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That would piss me off so much. 

Yup, I am a bit OCD about how clean my auto's are and I like them show room new shiney even with hundred of thousands of miles on them.

[ccap41]

19 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I have a total of 1 acre to mow. I love to work out but still I bought the EGO Mower with the self driving wheels to I just direct it and get my steps in.  Gotta keep the wife happy with a fit me.

Gotta Say that Robotic Mower is very COOL!

Ohhhhh definitely! It really is a good workout even with them being self propelled. Just get out, throw some headphones in, and just get some alone time in cutting the grass. That's why I don't mind cutting the grass. I just get a little time to myself where nobody bothers me and I ignore my phone going off. 

 

20 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, I am a bit OCD about how clean my auto's are and I like them show room new shiney even with hundred of thousands of miles on them.

Absolutely! I know my car gets dirty but I don't like it when it's somebody else's carelessness. When it's my fault, that's fine. When I let it get into somebody else's hands and they get it dirty... that's a gear grinder. 

Oh and that robotic Husqvarna lawn mower is awesome. Even the price isn't that bad when a quality rider will cost 2-3k anyway. For what I would want to cut my grass it would cost roughly the same for the robotic mower to do it for me AND it'd be electric. I'd have to look up how much it would cost to put up the parameter boundary to see if it's really equivalent or not. 

[oldshurst442]

So @ocnblu

You think that induction motors are NOT tough motors capable of repeated drag racing?

You think that induction motors are less capable?

And you think that I shouldnt express my displeasure over such stupid thought processes, even though in high school all over the world, students learn about Nicolas' little secret and in this forum, we have grown adults spewing stupidity?

So...you would rather I accept such idiocy and lunacy and not say a word and just let you folk continue to spew such uneducated drivel?

I gotcha!

With that down vote...I understand where your intellect resides!

 

[Drew Dowdell]

Induction motors are every bit as capable as internal combustion and power some of the fastest land based vehicles on the planet for millions of miles of travel at 180 miles an hour.

 

 

[oldshurst442]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:38 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I mean really... must every debate on EV's be reduced to strawman arguments?  Are we really arguing over supercharger/DCFC locations relative to drag strips now as a knock against EVs? We're talking a percentage of a percentage of a percentage of EV drivers that will ever do such driving.

 

On 9/28/2017 at 2:46 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I understand the "why", I'm just venting the frustration that every time EV's come up there is some obscure reason they'd never work large scale because (insert highly specific and uncommon occurrence here). 

 

@ocnblu

 

DREW explained for me by explaining it for himself why I behaved the way I did!

Just read what Drew said...then go back and read what I said!

Ya know...

You dont have to like EVs...NOBODY is telling you to like EVs...

You dont have to ACCEPT EVs either...NOBODY is telling you to accept them or buy them or ride in them or look at them...

But at least grow the phoque up...

Ya know...

admitting to their advantages over ICE is NOT admittance of you liking or accepting them!

Ya know!

You sound even dumber than you really are when you try to spew and exaggerate the lies you wanna believe about EVs...

No amount of downvotes on my posts will change REALITY!!! So downvote away...Ill continue to be aggressive this way in sticking it you!!!

Call it man-o-pause...call it me getting my panties in a knot...and downvote this post away!

quodque initium novum alio initio finito evenit

 

 

 

[ocnblu]

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

@ocnblu

 

DREW explained for me by explaining it for himself why I behaved the way I did!

Just read what Drew said...then go back and read what I said!

Ya know...

You dont have to like EVs...NOBODY is telling you to like EVs...

You dont have to ACCEPT EVs either...NOBODY is telling you to accept them or buy them or ride in them or look at them...

But at least grow the phoque up...

Ya know...

admitting to their advantages over ICE is NOT admittance of you liking or accepting them!

Ya know!

You sound even dumber than you really are when you try to spew and exaggerate the lies you wanna believe about EVs...

No amount of downvotes on my posts will change REALITY!!! So downvote away...Ill continue to be aggressive this way in sticking it you!!!

Call it man-o-pause...call it me getting my panties in a knot...and downvote this post away!

quodque initium novum alio initio finito evenit

 

 

 

Hmm... now I get it.  You enjoy pain.  So I will deny you the pain of a downvote from now on.  But wait... you might like the pain of not receiving your deserved downvote and that would defeat the whole purpose, for me, which is to please your twisted need for pain.  So now I am completely frozen in place, not knowing which way to turn.  SEE WHAT YOU DO TO ME?

[daves87rs]

On 9/27/2017 at 2:01 PM, dfelt said:

You want more check out this 1968 Ford Mustang called the Zombie 222. A tribute to the White Zombie and even better as a street legal EV muscle car.

Plenty more you can check out on Youtube on this bad boy.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zombie+222

Oh, I love this one!!!