July 2017: General Motors Co.

[William Maley]

Equinox, Acadia, Envision and XT5 Achieve Best July Ever

• Crossover and trucks account for 80 percent of sales for best monthly mix ever
• July incentive spending as a percentage of ATP below industry average, driving ATPs up nearly $1,000
• Commercial sales up 40 percent for best July since 2007
• Lowest daily rental sales mix of any full-line automaker

DETROIT — General Motors (NYSE: GM) today reported July U.S. retail sales of 202,220 vehicles, down about 14 percent from strong sales in July 2016. In July, GM’s crossovers and trucks account for 80 percent of sales for the company’s best monthly mix ever.

While the U.S. market continues to moderate, sales of GM’s newest crossovers were strong in July:

• Chevrolet Equinox - up 4 percent for its best July ever.
• Chevrolet Bolt EV – 1,832 Bolts were sold in July for the best month ever. August will be the first month the Bolt EV is available on a national basis.
• GMC Acadia - up 30 percent for its best July ever.
• Buick Envision - up 89 percent for its best July ever.
• Cadillac XT5 - up 6 percent for its best July ever.

GM’s July incentive spending as a percentage of average transaction prices (ATP) was 11.5 percent, more than 1 full percentage point below the industry average, and 0.5 percentage points below GM’s 2016 calendar year average. Some of GM’s competitors, without strong truck and crossover businesses, are offering significantly higher incentives across their entire portfolios, according to J.D. Power PIN estimates.

In addition, GM’s ATPs were about $36,000, up nearly $1,000 from July 2016.

“We have strategically decided to reduce car production rather than increase incentive spending or dump vehicles into daily rental fleets, like some of our competitors,” said Kurt McNeil, U.S. vice president of Sales Operations.  “We are working hard to protect the residual values of our new products and growing quality retail and commercial sales, and July’s ATPs reflect that discipline.”

GM’s U.S. commercial vehicles sales were up 40 percent from last July, the best July since 2007, led by strong large van sales (up 89 percent), small utilities (up 61 percent) and large pickup sales (up 21 percent).  Year to date, GM commercial sales are up 11 percent. U.S. daily rental sales were down more than 11,200 vehicles or 81 percent in July, as planned. In July, GM’s daily rental sales accounted for only 1 percent of GM’s total sales.  GM continues to have the lowest U.S. rental mix of any full-line automaker at about 7 percent of total sales year to date.    

GM’s July total sales were 226,107 vehicles, down about 15 percent from strong levels last year.

“Changing customer tastes have driven us to refocus our business on higher margin, faster growing segments, like the crossover segments. We are launching the most all-new crossovers in our history to take full advantage of the changes occurring in the U.S. marketplace,” added McNeil. “Our newest crossovers are performing very well in the marketplace and we’ll build on that momentum with the all-new Chevrolet Traverse, GMC Terrain, Buick Enclave and the introduction of the Regal TourX through the second half of 2017.”

By the end of 2017, GM will offer customers the U.S. industry’s newest and broadest lineup of crossovers.

“U.S. auto sales continue to moderate from last year’s record pace, but key U.S. economic fundamentals remain supportive of strong vehicle sales,” said Mustafa Mohatarem, GM chief economist. “Under the current economic conditions, we anticipate the second half of 2017 will be much stronger than the first half.”

July Brand Retail Highlights (vs. July 2016 unless noted)       

Chevrolet

• Colorado was up 22 percent.
• Both Camaro and Cruze were up slightly.
• Crossovers best year to date: Equinox, Traverse and Trax.
• Volt has best year to date.
• Volt and Bolt EV July sales combined for more than 3,300 deliveries.
• Silverado LD double cab was up 4 percent.

Buick

• Best year to date retail sales since 2005, up 2 percent.
• July ATPs are highest since December 2015.
• SUV mix is highest ever at 85 percent.

GMC

• ATPs are the highest ever, up 8 percent from last July.
• Sierra boasts the highest ATPs in the full-size pickup segment.
• Sierra HDs up 6 percent in July and year to date up 9 percent, the best in a decade
• Yukon up 4 percent.
• Yukon had its best July since 2007.

Cadillac

• CT6 up 7 percent.
• Year to date, XT5 retail sales are up 10 percent vs. combined SRX and XT5 sales a year ago.
• July ATPs up more than $3,000 and lead the luxury market and more than $3,000 higher than its closest competitor.

Guidance on U.S. Vehicle Inventory Levels

• We anticipate we will end 2017 at or below last year’s level, with fewer cars and more trucks, crossovers and utilities in the mix.
• Pickup, crossovers and utility sales, GM’s strength, are expected to be stronger in the second half of 2017 vs. the first half of the year.
• We continue to monitor the marketplace and will make additional production adjustments if needed.

[Robert Hall]

80%...wow..

[A Horse With No Name]

ATS off 63 percent...wow...

[balthazar]

Nothing like a widely read article on 'these 2 cars are being killed off' to stir sales.
It's not advertising that's GM's / Cadillac's Achillies heel, it's press releases. The old school GM people knew how to hold Corporate / Division interests close to the vest.

[G. David Felt]

WOW, 1 SRX and 2 ELR's were still sold. I would have thought they would have programmed them and sold them used rather than new.  

[cp-the-nerd]

The landslide of sedan sales is so depressing. Modern cars drive so damn well and people just want flaccid, less efficient crossovers en masse.

[Robert Hall]

9 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

The landslide of sedan sales is so depressing. Modern cars drive so damn well and people just want flaccid, less efficient crossovers en masse.

People want practicality and space... most sedans have useless, small trunks and are too close to the ground, crossovers and SUVs are much easier to get in and out of...

[Stew]

15 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

The landslide of sedan sales is so depressing. Modern cars drive so damn well and people just want flaccid, less efficient crossovers en masse.

It is sad to see sedan sales fall, but current CUVs and SUVs are not the flaccid driving pieces they used to be decades ago. 

[smk4565]

Going back to the mid 90s most sedans aren't that good or don't offer the features of an SUV either.  These companies programed people to think the SUV was more luxury and an upgrade.  I

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, William Maley said:

Sierra boasts the highest ATPs in the full-size pickup segment.

Not to quote you per se, just that this tidbit of info picked my curiosity.

Its more of a jab at Mercedes Benz CEOs trying to bullshyte their way selling that Nissan pick-up truck rebadge as the first real premium pick-up truck...that I wanted to highlight it!!!

 

[cp-the-nerd]

4 minutes ago, Stew said:

It is sad to see sedan sales fall, but current CUVs and SUVs are not the flaccid driving pieces they used to be decades ago. 

Compared to the equivalent sedan, yes they are. That's the point I was making.

 

10 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

People want practicality and space... most sedans have useless, small trunks and are too close to the ground, crossovers and SUVs are much easier to get in and out of...

I'll grant you ease of ingress/egress, but the "useless, small trunk" comment is an exaggeration. Even compacts have plenty of functional space. If a family of four can't vacation with an Impala, they're bringing too much crap.

I'm not saying crossovers and SUVs don't have use or appeal, I'm just saying the perceived necessity is vastly overblown. Just like people buying full size pick-up trucks who don't tow, need 4WD, or use the bed.

[A Horse With No Name]

38 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

The landslide of sedan sales is so depressing. Modern cars drive so damn well and people just want flaccid, less efficient crossovers en masse.

Agree completely!

[Robert Hall]

16 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

 I'll grant you ease of ingress/egress, but the "useless, small trunk" comment is an exaggeration. Even compacts have plenty of functional space. If a family of four can't vacation with an Impala, they're bringing too much crap. 

Try getting a box of decent size in one of the trunks with the useless small decklids... the trunk may have a decent amount of space, but the opening is poor on many sedans.    Of the various midsize rentals I've driven in the last couple of years, the Passat had the most usable trunk.   

I can't imagine a family finding an Impala very practical compared to a minivan or SUV.   Friends of mine with kids all seem to have minivans , crew cab pickups, SUVs or a mix of the 3.. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[cp-the-nerd]

18 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Try getting a box of decent size in one of the trunks with the useless small decklids... the trunk may have a decent amount of space, but the opening is poor on many sedans.    Of the various midsize rentals I've driven in the last couple of years, the Passat had the most usable trunk.   

I can't imagine a family finding an Impala very practical compared to a minivan or SUV.   Friends of mine with kids all seem to have minivans , crew cab pickups, SUVs or a mix of the 3.. 

You edited out the second part of my comment that addresses the car vs crossover perceived necessity.

You're talking to someone that owned a midsize car for 8 years and used it for every vacation and for moving twice. I fit two keyboards, two stands, an amplifier, and an entire drumset in my Malibu. If the argument is cargo access, then I'll take a new Regal GS 10 times over before a loaded Equinox or midlevel Traverse.

[A Horse With No Name]

39 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

You edited out the second part of my comment that addresses the car vs crossover perceived necessity.

You're talking to someone that owned a midsize car for 8 years and used it for every vacation and for moving twice. I fit two keyboards, two stands, an amplifier, and an entire drumset in my Malibu. If the argument is cargo access, then I'll take a new Regal GS 10 times over before a loaded Equinox or midlevel Traverse.

Regal is also a much better driving vehicle by a landslide.

[TaurusSHO]

Lack of space is just another lame excuse in the same way people buy trucks because they might need the bed once a year.  In my old Taurus, we had no problem getting all of our luggage in the 16 cubic foot trunk.  Granted, it was just three of us, but if there was another kid in the back seat there would still be enough space.  In our current Taurus, the trunk is a cavern, but I recognize most trunks aren't that big.  Bottom line, if you have two kids or less, there's no reason to not buy a sedan.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, TaurusSHO said:

Lack of space is just another lame excuse in the same way people buy trucks because they might need the bed once a year.  In my old Taurus, we had no problem getting all of our luggage in the 16 cubic foot trunk.  Granted, it was just three of us, but if there was another kid in the back seat there would still be enough space.  In our current Taurus, the trunk is a cavern, but I recognize most trunks aren't that big.  Bottom line, if you have two kids or less, there's no reason to not buy a sedan.

Exactly!

...also...I had five kids and got along just fine with a MINI Cooper S and a Miata...for about 5 years...so...

[Stew]

Hatchbacks are a decent compromise.  The SUV has it's advantages.  easier loading, larger and better shaped cargo bays, better visibility over the road, wider availability of AWD, Better ground clearance which is not only good for off-roading but great fro high snow and the ice we get here when it does snow.  Better ability to travel the less traveled muddy roads.  And these days they really do basically handle as well as sedans (not counting sporty models).  This is just the facts of things and i can't blame anyone.  i have had compact cars, midsize, and even fullsize cars.  Sportscars, pickups, and even a few SUVs.  For family hauling and ease of use the CUV/SUV DOES have an advantage. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

Hatchbacks are a decent compromise.  The SUV has it's advantages.  easier loading, larger and better shaped cargo bays, better visibility over the road, wider availability of AWD, Better ground clearance which is not only good for off-roading but great fro high snow and the ice we get here when it does snow.  Better ability to travel the less traveled muddy roads.  And these days they really do basically handle as well as sedans (not counting sporty models).  This is just the facts of things and i can't blame anyone.  i have had compact cars, midsize, and even fullsize cars.  Sportscars, pickups, and even a few SUVs.  For family hauling and ease of use the CUV/SUV DOES have an advantage. 

But the point made was that sedans do drive better, and are being passed over by vehicles that do not drive nearly so well.

[Stew]

24 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

But the point made was that sedans do drive better, and are being passed over by vehicles that do not drive nearly so well.

But that just isn't true, the vast majority of CUVs these days drive as well as their sedan counterparts. 

[cp-the-nerd]

6 minutes ago, Stew said:

But that just isn't true, the vast majority of CUVs these days drive as well as their sedan counterparts. 

So crossovers with hundreds of extra pounds in curb weight, higher center of gravity, and more wind resistance drive the same as equivalent sedans? No. That's objectively false and you can see the difference in acceleration, handling, and dynamics in every review. It's basic physics, and I'm surprised it's even debatable.

[Robert Hall]

All depends on the individual use case...I've driven Grand Cherokees for 17 years and never had an issue w/ the driving dynamics or handling.  I'm using 4x4 SUVs in the real world, not on race courses.   Ground clearance, traction for winter and muddy roads, ease of ingress/egress, space to haul stuff, etc are all advantages over a sedan.  I've had a few sports coupes and a couple luxury sedans in the past, but for a practical daily driver the Jeep suits me.    

I can easily think of many instances over the years where I would have had to rent a truck or other vehicle to do the things I've done with my Jeeps had I owned a typical sedan. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm sure your grand cherokee drives just fine for an SUV/CUV. I'm speaking *comparatively* here. Charger R/T or Cherokee V8 for dynamics? Charger, obviously. That's what I'm saying.

I literally made the enthusiast case for sedans on a car enthusiast website and stated my opinion that the landslide in sales is depressing to me, the pushback in this thread is confusing to say the least.

If you like big bloated vehicles for throwing your crap in the back, that's fine and dandy, but we're watching more enthusiast oriented cars get pushed out of the market every day and I'm disheartened by it.

[Stew]

23 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

So crossovers with hundreds of extra pounds in curb weight, higher center of gravity, and more wind resistance drive the same as equivalent sedans? No. That's objectively false and you can see the difference in acceleration, handling, and dynamics in every review. It's basic physics, and I'm surprised it's even debatable.

Keep your target market in mind.  To your average person they are going to pretty well feel the same. 

1 minute ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I'm sure your grand cherokee drives just fine for an SUV/CUV. I'm speaking *comparatively* here. Charger R/T or Cherokee V8 for dynamics? Charger, obviously. That's what I'm saying.

I literally made the enthusiast case for sedans on a car enthusiast website and stated my opinion that the landslide in sales is depressing to me, the pushback in this thread is confusing to say the least.

If you like big bloated vehicles for throwing your crap in the back, that's fine and dandy, but we're watching more enthusiast oriented cars get pushed out of the market every day and I'm disheartened by it.

That is not a good comparison.  The Jeep will naturally have a softer feel as it is built with off-road in mind.   Now, take the SRT8 and there is something surprising.  The Trackhawk should be marvelous as well, and the kudos of the Handling of the Durango SRT are just all grins. 

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I'm sure your grand cherokee drives just fine for an SUV/CUV. I'm speaking *comparatively* here. Charger R/T or Cherokee V8 for dynamics? Charger, obviously. That's what I'm saying.

I literally made the enthusiast case for sedans on a car enthusiast website and stated my opinion that the landslide in sales is depressing to me, the pushback in this thread is confusing to say the least.

If you like big bloated vehicles for throwing your crap in the back, that's fine and dandy, but we're watching more enthusiast oriented cars get pushed out of the market every day and I'm disheartened by it.

There is the difference between reality and enthusiasts.  Enthusiasts probably make up less than 1% of the new car buyers.   I'm a car enthusiast but also a realist--I've owned Mustang GTs and a BMW M3--as 2nd or 3rd cars, not a primary car or daily driver.  Chargers are nice, but I like the practicality of my Jeep for a daily driver.   To the average car buyer, the all-around practicality of a CUV or SUV overrides the driving experience of a sedan....that's reality.  99% of drivers don't care about 'driving experience', they are just trying to get themselves and their content from point A to point B and back again reliably.  

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Stew said:

But that just isn't true, the vast majority of CUVs these days drive as well as their sedan counterparts. 

Complete bull...the sedans drive much better.  It is a function of weight and center of gravity IMHO. 

This is why I like the Subaru BRZ...its center of gravity is actually lower than a Porsche Cayman, one of the other cars I love.

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

So crossovers with hundreds of extra pounds in curb weight, higher center of gravity, and more wind resistance drive the same as equivalent sedans? No. That's objectively false and you can see the difference in acceleration, handling, and dynamics in every review. It's basic physics, and I'm surprised it's even debatable.

Quoted again for truth.

[Stew]

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Complete bull...the sedans drive much better.  It is a function of weight and center of gravity IMHO. 

This is why I like the Subaru BRZ...its center of gravity is actually lower than a Porsche Cayman, one of the other cars I love.

Quoted again for truth.

You are talking about a BR-Z, not a Malibu or Taurus.  Modern tech can really make huge differences in the feel of a vehicle.  Keep in mind I am not talking huge CUVs like the Traverse, etc.  You can get midsize car room in a compact SUV and here we are talking about vehicles like the CX-5, Forrester ST, Escape 2.0 EB, which basically as light as any car, and manufacturers do great jobs lowering the center of gravity and roll mitigation these days, so I stand by what I said. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

You are talking about a BR-Z, not a Malibu or Taurus.  Modern tech can really make huge differences in the feel of a vehicle.  Keep in mind I am not talking huge CUVs like the Traverse, etc.  You can get midsize car room in a compact SUV and here we are talking about vehicles like the CX-5, Forrester ST, Escape 2.0 EB, which basically as light as any car, and manufacturers do great jobs lowering the center of gravity and roll mitigation these days, so I stand by what I said. 

Look....I agree the Forrester XT is a wonderful product.  I am as much of a Subaru fan as SMK is a Benz fan or Cmicasa is a Cadillac fan.

But to say it is anything  like a WRX is just irrational.

And a regular Forrester is nothing like a regular Impreza.

[Stew]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Look....I agree the Forrester XT is a wonderful product.  I am as much of a Subaru fan as SMK is a Benz fan or Cmicasa is a Cadillac fan.

But to say it is anything  like a WRX is just irrational.

And a regular Forrester is nothing like a regular Impreza.

Read again, I said compared to midsize sedans.  He Legacy isn't exactly a handler. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Stew said:

Read again, I said compared to midsize sedans.  He Legacy isn't exactly a handler. 

It is in a way... Subaru has a fantastic all wheel drive system...and with a lower center of Gravity...the Legacy is a decent handling car.

[G. David Felt]

Love that GM has scaled back selling to rental companies, helps to keep residual value up on used auto's.

[TaurusSHO]

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Not a Ford guy in the least...but the Focus is really a decent handling little car...especially in ST trim,

[A Horse With No Name]

17 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Love that GM has scaled back selling to rental companies, helps to keep residual value up on used auto's.

Indeed...more their true mission to build premium vehicles anyways...

[G. David Felt]

17 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

[cp-the-nerd]

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

No, *you* moved the goal post by throwing in a wildly inappropriate vehicle comparison. Is any random sedan as capable as the top performance SUVs? No, but that's such a dubious statement. Stew made the same logical mistake in trying to rationalize comparing the SRT Grand Cherokee against a Charger R/T. If you have to grant an SUV a vastly superior powertrain and a multitude of performance enhancements to win, you've bolstered OUR argument, not yours.

Fact: sedans have better dynamics and performance than crossovers. Opinion: we are sad to see the market abandoning better driving cars for bloated appliances.

[smk4565]

People aren't buying crossovers for space concerns they are buying them more for image.  If you took a group of average people and put an Equinox next to an Impala, the majority would think the Equinox was roomier and more luxurious and that it was a more premium product.  They wouldn't know that the Impala was 2 size classes bigger had more leg room or had more luxury features, they would see the SUV as the more desirable vehicle.

[balthazar]

So people think the $67K GLS is a more premium product than the $95K S-class?

Interesting...

[TaurusSHO]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course.   

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course.   

Camaro SS would hand the Trail Blazer it's ass on a platter, actually.

[TaurusSHO]

No doubt it would.

[A Horse With No Name]

43 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So people think the $67K GLS is a more premium product than the $95K S-class?

Interesting...

Indeed...and a Trax would be more prestige than a CTS then...

Just now, TaurusSHO said:

No doubt it would.

Hate to say it but a Continental with the high output six and AWD would also.

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

No, *you* moved the goal post by throwing in a wildly inappropriate vehicle comparison. Is any random sedan as capable as the top performance SUVs? No, but that's such a dubious statement. Stew made the same logical mistake in trying to rationalize comparing the SRT Grand Cherokee against a Charger R/T. If you have to grant an SUV a vastly superior powertrain and a multitude of performance enhancements to win, you've bolstered OUR argument, not yours.

Fact: sedans have better dynamics and performance than crossovers. Opinion: we are sad to see the market abandoning better driving cars for bloated appliances.

I need a 20 year old version of you on the college debate team I help coach.

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course.   

I take my TB over your Taurus SHO.   TB would win.

[TaurusSHO]

15 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I take my TB over your Taurus SHO.   TB would win.

Well if I actually had a Taurus SHO I would gladly race you somewhere!   I'm currently driving a 1989 LeBaron until I get a full time job after I graduate college. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by TaurusSHO

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Not only handles better, but probably brakes better, gets better gas mileage too.  But the people don't care, they see Crossover = Status symbol or Crossover = premium vehicle.

Part of the problem is people won't even give the car a chance.  If you have a 2010 Fusion and come to the dealer and look at a 2017 Escape Ecoboost, then the ride, handling, gas mileage, etc may be better on that Escape because it is getting compared to a 7 year old car. 

[A Horse With No Name]

49 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Well if I actually had a Taurus SHO I would gladly race you somewhere!   I'm currently driving a 1989 LeBaron until I get a full time job after I graduate college. 

Two thoughts...this must be Photoshop, as no 1989 car in the state of Ohio is this pristine and clean.

Also, you write and think so clearly I assumed you already had an advanced degree.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

So people think the $67K GLS is a more premium product than the $95K S-class?

Interesting...

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies, they invest big dollars into that sedan and they position it as their halo product.  Cadillac and Lincoln make an SUV their top product, Buick does it with Enclave, Acura does it with MDX, etc.  Most brands market their SUVs as what you should buy because that is where they make their profit.  Nothing wrong with that either.  But I am a fan of cars, I don't like SUVs, so I like a brand that pushes cars.

[A Horse With No Name]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not only handles better, but probably brakes better, gets better gas mileage too.  But the people don't care, they see Crossover = Status symbol or Crossover = premium vehicle.

Part of the problem is people won't even give the car a chance.  If you have a 2010 Fusion and come to the dealer and look at a 2017 Escape Ecoboost, then the ride, handling, gas mileage, etc may be better on that Escape because it is getting compared to a 7 year old car. 

Indeed... which is why we need more new Vehicles along the line of that trailblazer SS!

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies, they invest big dollars into that sedan and they position it as their halo product.  Cadillac and Lincoln make an SUV their top product, Buick does it with Enclave, Acura does it with MDX, etc.  Most brands market their SUVs as what you should buy because that is where they make their profit.  Nothing wrong with that either.  But I am a fan of cars, I don't like SUVs, so I like a brand that pushes cars.

I would up vote this by a hundred if I had any up votes left for today.

You have a clear reason for your preference...that beats all of the argument over price and sales numbers also.

 

It is also why I like Mazda... plucky independent with a two seat affordable roadster as a Flagship.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Indeed...and a Trax would be more prestige than a CTS then...

Hate to say it but a Continental with the high output six and AWD would also.

I need a 20 year old version of you on the college debate team I help coach.

No, but I bet if you polled 100 people at a Cadillac dealership and took the window stickers off the cars, the majority would say the XT5 is a more premium or more desirable product than the CTS and even the CT6.  Because most advertising is made to make people think the crossover is better.

Another problem is size doesn't equal luxury any more.  In the 80s and maybe some in the 90s, the large sedan meant luxury because it had space.  Not people see crossovers as having space, but also no one wants a large vehicle.  A Rav4 that is 180 inches long or whatever it is is seen as a family car, and even as a better family car than the Camry that is actually bigger and roomier.  It defies logic.

Anyone notice that the LaCrosse is a new product and down 56%.  It is a rough business selling big sedans, I think car companies need small to mid-size sedans that offer luxury and performance way above what the SUVs can offer to stay relevant.  I think the new Camry stepped it up a lot to try to get people back in sedans.  Since the Lacrosse and Impala are going away, they should take the interior out of those cars and put it in the Malibu, then maybe people would consider a Malibu over a Rav4 that seems to sell 2,000 units a day now.

[balthazar]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies...

I'm not so sure about that. GLS is bigger, taller, blingier, has a much bigger star emblem in the grille... I bet all those people who assume SUVs are a step up from the corresponding sedan probably think the GLS is above the s-class, which is rather bland & pretty much dated styling-wise, plus they are usually black which makes people think of livery cars. PLUS... MB prices the ancient hoary old g-wagon HIGHER than the S-class, reinforcing your theory that SUVs may be perceived as higher up than sedans.

Look at Cadillac- there is no sedan equivalent of the E, it has the highest MSRP in the catalog, and people know it's (currently) the top model. That probably extends to many consumers.

Good work!!