GM News: Rumorpile: GM Considers Dropping Six Passenger Vehicles (UPDATED)

[balthazar]

Every other car in the 3-series segment just announced it's going to discontinue itself because 'they've lost'.

[daves87rs]

41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Every other car in the 3-series segment just announced it's going to discontinue itself because 'they've lost'.

The point is more that they are not doing what they said they would do- giving the "other guys" a run for their money sales wise. Doesn't matter if I(or you) think they are good- the consumer is simply not buying them, that's all. Besides, better to lose a battle than the war...

But pretty much every other car is selling too....or has a big brother with money that can afford this....GM simply can't-they have to look at the whole picture, and other divisions as well. Caddy really needs another C/SUV. so they can make some money here. Once they get a few successful models out, then we could worry a little more about the sedans again.

 

Besides, you know I want to see Caddy succeed too......

[balthazar]

The O/P talks (erroneously) about the CT6 being dropped, with sales as the reason.
We know now via JDN that that is false.

S-class U.S. YTD : 7583
CT6, U.S. YTD : 5397
7-series, U.S. YTD : 4255
A-7, US YTD : 3056
A-8, U.S. YTD : 1601

This is not "losing a battle".
And I would like to read the PR release where Cadillac said they were going to compete on 'sales volume'.

Sorry- the CT6 is doing great sales-wise.  And every car segment Cadillac is in is taking marketshare away from the competition. That's how you 'battle'. If there is only 1 worthy vehicle in it's segment simply because it sells the most, consumers are going to have a Russian-esque degree of choice.

[Stew]

I think they should recombine the ATS and CTS in one car.  That tweener size at a compact price is what made it successful.  My brother's 09 CTS was great in size and drivability and that model sold so well.  His current ATS is a great driving car, but it is so small inside, espeically compared with competing coupes in the segment.  Cue is also a disaster. 

[G. David Felt]

30 minutes ago, Stew said:

I think they should recombine the ATS and CTS in one car.  That tweener size at a compact price is what made it successful.  My brother's 09 CTS was great in size and drivability and that model sold so well.  His current ATS is a great driving car, but it is so small inside, espeically compared with competing coupes in the segment.  Cue is also a disaster. 

Yes the ATS is small for big people, but spot on when compared to all the other competitors. QUE, Same excuse, people seem to bash when they do not know how to use it. Plus, since your brother got his ATS, has he done any of the free updates? Que right now is so much better than when it came out and I have to say User Error more than anything. Like the crappy BMW and MB systems or even FORD or Toyota, when you do not use it daily, they all seem to be a challenge and poorly designed. My nieces Ford Flex system drives me nuts, yet for her she thinks it works great compared to the rare time she uses her mom's escalade.

The Nav / Touch screen systems in auto's today are very subjective to what you are very familiar with, otherwise you can say they all suck or all are awesome.

[Stew]

26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes the ATS is small for big people, but spot on when compared to all the other competitors. QUE, Same excuse, people seem to bash when they do not know how to use it. Plus, since your brother got his ATS, has he done any of the free updates? Que right now is so much better than when it came out and I have to say User Error more than anything. Like the crappy BMW and MB systems or even FORD or Toyota, when you do not use it daily, they all seem to be a challenge and poorly designed. My nieces Ford Flex system drives me nuts, yet for her she thinks it works great compared to the rare time she uses her mom's escalade.

The Nav / Touch screen systems in auto's today are very subjective to what you are very familiar with, otherwise you can say they all suck or all are awesome.

The ATS has been in the shop multiple times and the entire unit even had to be replaced with less than 5k miles on it.  It is not just pwople not knowing how to use it, it is possibly the worst unit on the market.  And have you been in an ATS, A4/A%, 3/4 eies?  they have WAY more room.  the front seat is fine, but my skinny cousin has issues fitting in the back.  My bug is 20 inches shorter with considerably more backseat room.  The ATS is way too big to be as limited as it is in room. 

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, Stew said:

The ATS has been in the shop multiple times and the entire unit even had to be replaced with less than 5k miles on it.  It is not just pwople not knowing how to use it, it is possibly the worst unit on the market.  And have you been in an ATS, A4/A%, 3/4 eies?  they have WAY more room.  the front seat is fine, but my skinny cousin has issues fitting in the back.  My bug is 20 inches shorter with considerably more backseat room.  The ATS is way too big to be as limited as it is in room. 

I can understand that as I had my head unit replaced in the first 5K miles when new, but since been rock steady. Weird, but I do think with so many electronics in the world, products either are built right the first time or not and sadly swapping them out is a fact of life. I know both BMW and MB owners that have gone through many head units in their own auto and then traded in for something new. So this is not just a cadillac issue.

Bummer to hear your brother had that happen, but hopefully the latest unit is current on software and working fine.

In regards to internal size, yes they all fall within an inch or two of the same measurements in one way or another. Sadly if you are just tall like me or have long body, short legs / arms or long legs & arms, short body, the ATS does seem to work fine in the front but kill's the back seat for room especially headroom, but then so does every other auto in this class at least for me, Shrek size.  Bug's also do not fit for me. Wife loves the design, size, etc. but sucks for interior room for big guys like me. as to why I will always be in full size SUV's. 

That of course will not stop me from test driving cars and checking them out. Always fun to get into them and dream if it was only Eldorado 70's size for me.

FYI - Arnold Schwarzenegger was my idol growing up as I was 6ft tall at age 12, my dad got me into body building and at age 50 I am still a die hard gym nut. So big is me when it comes to fitting into auto's.  

[daves87rs]

16 hours ago, balthazar said:

The O/P talks (erroneously) about the CT6 being dropped, with sales as the reason.
We know now via JDN that that is false.

S-class U.S. YTD : 7583
CT6, U.S. YTD : 5397
7-series, U.S. YTD : 4255
A-7, US YTD : 3056
A-8, U.S. YTD : 1601

This is not "losing a battle".
And I would like to read the PR release where Cadillac said they were going to compete on 'sales volume'.

Sorry- the CT6 is doing great sales-wise.  And every car segment Cadillac is in is taking marketshare away from the competition. That's how you 'battle'. If there is only 1 worthy vehicle in it's segment simply because it sells the most, consumers are going to have a Russian-esque degree of choice.

While true, the same can't be said for the CTS/ATS.......

The CT6 is the shining example there.....

And it's not the volume that worries me....it's the fact it can't sell the number that it did before. That's where it is losing. This is where GM need to do something if they really want to keep all of them going. Like maybe advertise more, offer packages, heck, good lease rates...

Confuses me with GM wants this division to be top dog, but not treat it as such....

[riviera74]

GM has had an advertising/marketing problem ever since the BK, and it probably goes back as far as the '90s.  Cadillac should be getting MORE ad/mktg value than everyone else, but they have not put in the effort.  Personally I am not sure whether the CTS or ATS should survive, but they need to choose one and make that the CT4.  As for the XT5, Cadillac needs the XT3 and XT7 STAT!

A Russian-esque degree of choice for a worthy vehicle in each segment.  Yuck.  They call that a monopoly.  Monopolies of ANY KIND are completely awful for everyone (excluding the monopolist).

[Paolino]

This is so disappointing... I love a larger sedan, as do my parents, my brother, etc.  My friends have always enjoyed being passengers in them.

[G. David Felt]

19 minutes ago, Paolino said:

This is so disappointing... I love a larger sedan, as do my parents, my brother, etc.  My friends have always enjoyed being passengers in them.

Understandable, but the market has changed. Just hope that a few large sedans survive for those that want them over a CUV / SUV.

[Robert Hall]

One fact I read in an article Ihat was sobering is that for a lot of car buyers in their 20s-40s now, they have never experienced a full size sedan except for maybe for a ride w/ a grandparent or other elderly relative, or rides in taxis/Ubers/police cars.

 They grew up in the era of minivans and SUVs.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

@Cubical-aka-Moltar

I did the sad votey thingy because that is sad news indeed.

I hope a sad votey thingy is not a down vote!

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

@Cubical-aka-Moltar

I did the sad votey thingy because that is sad news indeed.

I hope a sad votey thingy is not a down vote!

It is sad...it seems upper age of the minivan generation is around age 45 today..I vaguely remember a few kids w/ parents w/ minivans (the early Caravans, Voyagers, a funky Toyota van) when I was in high school, but most kids my age at my high school still had parents with full size wagons and full size cars..

Edited July 25, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

It is sad...it seems upper age of the minivan generation is around age 45 today..I vaguely remember a few kids w/ parents w/ minivans (the early Caravans, Voyagers, a funky Toyota van) when I was in high school, but most kids my age at my high school still had parents with full size wagons and full size cars..

Same hear.

4 door 1980s Chevy Caprices or Pontiac Parisiennes

Pic from Montreal in the backround

early 1980s

 

mid 1980s

And Olds Delta 88s and even Fleetwoods and Lincoln Town Cars and the downsized yet still fullsized FWD Bonnevilles and Delta 88s/98s and Buick LeSabres were everywhere.

Not too many mini-vans in my neck of the woods either in the 1980-1990 era when my friends and I and our peers were pre-teens onward to becoming teens and young adults.

 

[Robert Hall]

Yep, those  GM B- and C- bodies were everywhere then...and many of my buddies got hand-me-down ones from their folks for their first cars...I remember buddies with cars like a '76 Electra 225 coupe, '77 Caprice 2dr, '80 Bonneville 4dr, '80 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham d' Elegance in triple silver w/ a diesel, '80 Impala wagon, '78 Le Sabre 4dr, '81 Delta 88 4dr diesel..this was in the 1985-1988 time frame.  When I got my driver's license in '86, I drove my Dad's '86 Town Car to school for a while (alternating w/ his '84 Escort diesel) until i got my '87 Mustang GT. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

I spent some time early on behind the wheel of dad's '77 Pontiac Safari, but once I & my friends started buying cars, we all jumped back a decade and a half and were picking up late 50s to late '60s rides. I don't recall anybody getting a familial hand-down. '65 Catalina, '68 Deville convert, '67 CdV, '57 Bel Air, '59 Star Chief, '64 GP, '68 Catalina, '65 Corvair Corsa, '53 Merc, '64 Belvedere, '64 Catalina, '69 Firebird, etc, etc. One guy had a Sirocco and another one of the V8 Triumphs, but otherwise they were all domestics that I can recall.

[oldshurst442]

22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I spent some time early on behind the wheel of dad's '77 Pontiac Safari, but once I & my friends started buying cars, we all jumped back a decade and a half and were picking up late 50s to late '60s rides. I don't recall anybody getting a familial hand-down. '65 Catalina, '68 Deville convert, '67 CdV, '57 Bel Air, '59 Star Chief, '64 GP, '68 Catalina, '65 Corvair Corsa, '53 Merc, '64 Belvedere, '64 Catalina, '69 Firebird, etc, etc. One guy had a Sirocco and another one of the V8 Triumphs, but otherwise they were all domestics that I can recall.

We are very close in age I believe. I was born in 1973.

Anyhoo, for what Im about to assume...

In Montreal by the time I was of driving age (17) in 1990...and even earlier as my friends did have older brothers....by that time which would be 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989...heck even as early as 1984...there were hardly any 1950s or 1960s rides available for sale. Early 1970s cars were starting to thin out too.

And if there was, in very bad condition they were. Not road worthy at all for a high schooler to drive. Way beyond beater status.

Rust and a lack of a keep, maintain and restore culture up here relegated old cars to be junked...

This is also a sad story...

You Balthy, and others like Balthy where oldie cars were part of their growing up is special. (For people that love history and cars that is)

I am truly envious.

Edited July 25, 2017 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Thinking back, I agree- there were a plethora of them in Jersey / PA, and we snapped just about all of them up.
I'm older than U- I'm a '66 model.

[smk4565]

GM still has cars though.  Ford is about to have 3 cars, 7 SUVs, 2 vans and 2 pick ups.

[Robert Hall]

My folks and older brother had '60s cars as hobby cars/weekend cars, but there were very few '60s cars in my high school (1984-1988 were my high school years).    I remember a '69 Charger, a couple '65-66 Mustangs, a '68 Mustang, a '66 Cadillac Coupe de Ville.   But late 70s-mid 80s cars were way more common... esp. GM A-, B, and C- bodies.   And many of my classmates got new cars in their junior/senior year---I remember a 1/2 dozen or so Mustang GTs and LX 5.0s, IROC-Zs, a Trans Am GTA, a couple Monte Carlo SSes, 1 Buick Grand National, a Corvette, a Ferrari 308 GTB, and a Merc 560SEL AMG (kid's dad was in the import/export business--they had a cigarette boat)...this was South Florida, so some outrageous stuff...

Edited July 25, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

No doubt '70s stuff was more common, but I only had eyes for '60s and earlier, of which there was quite a few. Even the HS school VP had a '69 Fury coupe in the mid '80s.

[Robert Hall]

The teachers in my high school had an interesting mix of cars..one of the coaches had an orange Porsche 914, an English teacher had a blue Peugeot 504 diesel, another had a rusty blue '70s Chevy LUV pickup, another a silver mid 80s Toyota 4x4, another a '70s Toyota Winnebago camper, and a favorite--my physics teacher drove a silver w/ black top '71 Sedan de Ville... 

[oldshurst442]

My friends (posse) when I was 20-21-22 years of age had

• 1 G60 VW Corrado
• 2 VR6 VW Corrados that were modified and chiipped
• 1 1995 VW VR6 Golf modified and chipped
• 1 1992 Eagle Talon tsi Turbo AWD
• 1 1988 "notchback" Trans Am with digital dash
• 1 1994 modified and chipped Ford Probe GT
• 1 1993 LT1 Vette with the Burgundy paint job but I dont remember it having 40th anniversary logos???
• 1 1993 Dodge Stealth R/T
• 1 1993 Trans Am (first one in Quebec to be sold)
• 2 1995 Acura Integras
• 1 1989 Pontiac Firefly turbo (my first and only real girlfriend that I actually had feelings for at the time---it took maybe another 5 years to actually care for another girl with real feelings again---then another 4-5 years to meet my wife---all other relationships were flings)
• 1 1990 Asuna Sunfire turbo
• 1 1976 Toyota Celica that I almost bought, I opted for a 1989 Firebird instead.
• 1 1994 BMW M3. The dude with the 1976 Celica ended keeping the Celica and bought the Bimmer!!! He still has the Celica. The Bimmer is looooong gone!

I had a 1989 Pontiac Firebird 2.8 liter V6 that I bought from another friend(he bought the Dodge Stealth) when I crashed that, I bought with my dad a 1994 4 door Pontiac Grand Am GT 3.1 liter V6...then I bought myself another car, a beater...a 1985 Oldsmobile Delta 88 with a 305.

 All those guys bought those cars new with the help of their dads with the exception of the 1976 Celica

So no classic car guys in my gang. More like the Fast and the Furious crowd. Most of those guys despised American  cars, classic or new for the times. These guys praised VWs and BMWs and Hondas...YUK!!!

Edited July 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

In my experience, I would prefer a large car over a minivan, especially in the 80s.  Why?  My family bought an 87 Ford Aerostar, and I was required to learn how to drive in that minivan.  I never liked that minivan and I have had the occasional issue with them since.  As far as I am concerned, I am a little jealous of you guys who drove the old pre-1985 B-bodies since those seemed to be better.  When I lived in northern NJ back in the late 90s, there were SO MANY OF THEM, even those from about 1977 and earlier.  Back then I had an 84 Cutlass Supreme and there are a few occasions I miss that car (or at least what it offered).

What really saddens me is that there are so FEW large cars generally, and even fewer large RWD sedans anymore.  Cadillac has the CT6 but needs to resolve the poor sales of the CTS and ATS.  The Epsilon FWD cars will almost certainly disappear because of this crossover madness the USA is suffering through.  The Chevy SS was too limited in sales and production; the Charger/300 twins require an upgrade; Ford has the Mustang and the trucks (and I do not like trucks!); Lexus has the GS and LS that may not sell like they used to; BMW and MB are the same as they ever were, but they are increasingly crossover-mad; the Jaguar XJ may become endangered; and Hyundai/Kia makes the only semi-affordable RWD large sedans left other than Chrysler.

If only Congress simply raised the gas tax in 1975 rather than pursue this CAFE madness, we could have avoided a lot of this mess.  Now we are stuck.  Help.

[Stew]

So, the Caddy chief announced today they are doing exactly as i said.  When the ATS/CTS/XTS reaches the end of their lifecycles in 19, they will be combined into one model for the XT5 running in the 35-45k range and have the CT6 in the 50=k range. 

[Robert Hall]

Yeah, 3 sedan strategy....compact CT?,  midsize CT5, and the full size CT6... and 3 crossovers-- XT3, XT5, XT7...

[balthazar]

It's going to be quite hilarious; the ATS & CTS will "combine" into one replacement... then Cadillac may bring out another car.... EXACTLY where the ATS was in size & position.

In other words, what appears is going to happen is the ATS & CTS will get redesigns and the XTS is  getting discontinued. Which means all that is happening here is the XTS is going away.

[Robert Hall]

So to put it simply--the next gen ATS becomes the CT3 or CT4, the next gen CTS becomes the CT5, and the XTS goes away....just switching over to the new boring naming scheme...nothing to see here...