How do you separate preference from bias?

[A Horse With No Name]

So I have gotten over negative feelings I have for both Chrysler and GM but for some reason seem to have a somewhat irrational case of real dislike for Ford motor company at the moment. I really like the current F150, the Lincoln crossover products, the Mustang, the ST twins, the Fusion Sport...and several other products.

But for whatever reason I seem to have a real dislike for Ford that is not rational. Any advice you have for helping me think more rationally about them would be appreciated. 

Thanks!

[Drew Dowdell]

There is an old quote from Gandhi:

I" like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Perhaps it is Ford worshippers that cause such feelings @A Horse With No Name.

[oldshurst442]

Hate is a very natural human emotion!

I say embrace your hatred and your anger. Let it flow. Through you, over you, all around you!

Dont ease up! Just accept and grow stronger!

You hate Ford?

I say GOOD FOR YOU!!!

 

Ford fans = Jedi younglings

@A Horse With No Name = Annakin Skywalker

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There is an old quote from Gandhi:

I" like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Perhaps it is Ford worshippers that cause such feelings @A Horse With No Name.

That is part of it...

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Hate is a very natural human emotion!

I say embrace your hatred and your anger. Let it flow. Through you, over you, all around you!

Dont ease up! Just accept and grow stronger!

You hate Ford?

I say GOOD FOR YOU!!!

 

Ford fans = Jedi younglings

@A Horse With No Name = Annakin Skywalker

 

 

I can relate!

[Robert Hall]

I grew up in a Ford family, my first 3 cars were all Ford products...but from an early age I had an awareness of other car makers, from reading Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc, and interest in a variety of cars internationally, through my fascination with model cars and die cast.   My older brother was into Chevys and Pontiacs also besides Fords, and my sister's first car was also Ford but once she got out on her own got into Datsuns and later other imports.    I'd consider another Ford at some point, but am happy w/ Jeeps for now. 

As far as hating on brands or disliking them, there are brands I've disliked or perhaps not been attracted to, but never something I would consider as strong as 'hate'...I save those stronger emotions for more important matters. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I grew up in a Ford family, my first 3 cars were all Ford products...but from an early age I had an awareness of other car makers, from reading Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc, and interest in a variety of cars internationally, through my fascination with model cars and die cast.   My older brother was into Chevys and Pontiacs also besides Fords, and my sister's first car was also Ford but once she got out on her own got into Datsuns and later other imports.    I'd consider another Ford at some point, but am happy w/ Jeeps for now. 

As far as hating on brands or disliking them, there are brands I've disliked or perhaps not been attracted to, but never something I would consider as strong as 'hate'...I save those stronger emotions for more important matters. 

Fair enough...maybe I should say strongly dislike...

[ykX]

8 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There is an old quote from Gandhi:

I" like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Perhaps it is Ford worshippers that cause such feelings @A Horse With No Name.

From where I stand I don't see any difference between GM and Ford fanboys, and there is way more GM fanboys on this site then Ford 

[A Horse With No Name]

33 minutes ago, ykX said:

From where I stand I don't see any difference between GM and Ford fanboys, and there is way more GM fanboys on this site then Ford 

Fair enough also....I actually tend to like imports more than either Ford or GM products. Really I am not that  much of a domestic car guy in terms of my hard wiring...I would probably take the right 911 or Jaguar F type over any domestic car built....this site keeps me in balance and is fairly rational.

Edited June 19, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[Frisky Dingo]

I just always try to remind myself to separate my feelings for a brand or it's fans from my impressions of a car.

For instance, I like a lot of Ferrari models. The brand as a whole, I'm not a fan of in the slightest. 

GM, on the other hand, I like in general. But some of their cars are total duds, and I won't hold back from calling them such.

I try to judge a car as though I don't know what the maker is, and I don't subject it to my own personal preferences over how the car performs it's intended function.

[Drew Dowdell]

5 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I grew up in a Ford family, my first 3 cars were all Ford products...but from an early age I had an awareness of other car makers, from reading Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc, and interest in a variety of cars internationally, through my fascination with model cars and die cast.   My older brother was into Chevys and Pontiacs also besides Fords, and my sister's first car was also Ford but once she got out on her own got into Datsuns and later other imports.    I'd consider another Ford at some point, but am happy w/ Jeeps for now. 

As far as hating on brands or disliking them, there are brands I've disliked or perhaps not been attracted to, but never something I would consider as strong as 'hate'...I save those stronger emotions for more important matters. 

I'm with you here... I don't hate any brands.  While I'd never want to own one or drive a long distance in one, I think taking an extended spin in a Yugo would be neat just to have the experience. 

That said, I grew up in a Ford / GM / Obscure-sh!tbox-import family. There are things I like and dislike about each.  GM ergonomics and interior layout generally just "fit" me better.  I have lots and lots of good memories of my parents '94 Bonneville that they bought about a year before I got my license.  My dad still has his F-150 he bought when I was in 9th or 10th grade.  The imports we had were never the well known type... there was a Fiat that I only barely remember, a VW Type 3 squareback, an early 80s Subaru GL Wagon 4x4 5-speed, and a Dodge Colt Vista wagon 4x4 5-speed.

That familiarity with GM and Ford products makes me feel much more comfortable in them.  It makes me feel uncomfortable in vehicles like Toyota or Benz where the Cruise control / Tilt wheel / head lamp controls are in the wrong place or wrong shape.  After years of GM cars with the WonderStalk, it took a while to get used to the cruise control in my Lincoln, but eventually it felt comfortable.  I've been driving the CR-V for nearly 10 years now and I still have to hunt for the Cruise Control on/off button when Albert turns it off for some unknown reason.

That said, as much as I've praised some specific Ford products here over the years, the actions of certain visitors to this site plus some of the actions of Ford PR people have left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I always try to relay my observations to readers in as even handed and objective way possible.  In those cases where I am reviewing a Ford product, it isn't the brand, but its followers that I have to try to put out of my mind.  I do find myself being careful of how or what I say that is or might be construed as negative in an attempt to avoid having to deal with trolling..... but really shouldn't do that as it is a disservice to you readers. 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 hours ago, ykX said:

From where I stand I don't see any difference between GM and Ford fanboys, and there is way more GM fanboys on this site then Ford 

The origins of this site, before I took it over, were as a GM fan site... so it is natural to find that here.   Still, fanboys are fine. There wouldn't be a site if fanboys didn't exist.  I'll be the first to admit that there have been some whoppers told by some of the GM fans here.... right along with the Benz Fans ... Ford fans... and VW fans... and Chrysler Co. fans. 

It's when telling whoppers crosses the line into trolling, abusive posts, and flat out falsehoods that would make politicians blush that I have to step in and either correct the record or take more punitive measures. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I just always try to remind myself to separate my feelings for a brand or it's fans from my impressions of a car.

For instance, I like a lot of Ferrari models. The brand as a whole, I'm not a fan of in the slightest. 

GM, on the other hand, I like in general. But some of their cars are total duds, and I won't hold back from calling them such.

I try to judge a car as though I don't know what the maker is, and I don't subject it to my own personal preferences over how the car performs it's intended function.

I agree...I really like the Camaro, but it is nowhere near the car the Mustang or Challenger are.

[Robert Hall]

As an aside, it is funny how you get familiar with a particular model or brand's controls then when you change cars or in a rental it takes time to get used to them....muscle memory and all that.

After 2 months, I'm still hunting for the missing right stalk and missing center console parking brake in my '14 JGC.   My '00 JGC had all the lighting features on the left stalk, all the wiper ones on the right stalk, and a center console parking brake.   The '14 has a dash knob for lighting, a stalk on the left w/ wiper functions, and foot operated parking brake...   all locations that show M-Bs influence on the WK2, I think.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The origins of this site, before I took it over, were as a GM fan site... so it is natural to find that here.   Still, fanboys are fine. There wouldn't be a site if fanboys didn't exist.  I'll be the first to admit that there have been some whoppers told by some of the GM fans here.... right along with the Benz Fans ... Ford fans... and VW fans... and Chrysler Co. fans. 

It's when telling whoppers crosses the line into trolling, abusive posts, and flat out falsehoods that would make politicians blush that I have to step in and either correct the record or take more punitive measures. 

My MINI Cooper S will outrun a Buggati Veyron, it is worth more than a V 16 Cadillac from the Classic Era, will out tow a Ford Power Stroke diesel, and you are all less than men for not driving one...

Now you have heard it from the BMW/MINI crowd as well...

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I agree...I really like the Camaro, but it is nowhere near the car the Mustang or Challenger are.

The poor outward visibility kind of kills the Camaro for me...feels like being in a pill box, and my head touches the headliner.    I like the new Mustang a lot, but of the 3, the Challenger really appeals to me the most..it's the '70s styling and heftiness that appeal to me...

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The poor outward visibility kind of kills the Camaro for me...feels like being in a pill box, and my head touches the headliner.    I like the new Mustang a lot, but of the 3, the Challenger really appeals to me the most..it's the '70s styling and heftiness that appeal to me...

I think it is a close tie between the Mustang and Callenger with Camaro a distant second.

4 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

As an aside, it is funny how you get familiar with a particular model or brand's controls then when you change cars or in a rental it takes time to get used to them....muscle memory and all that.

After 2 months, I'm still hunting for the missing right stalk and missing center console parking brake in my '14 JGC.   My '00 JGC had all the lighting features on the left stalk, all the wiper ones on the right stalk, and a center console parking brake.   The '14 has a dash knob for lighting, a stalk on the left w/ wiper functions, and foot operated parking brake...   both attributes that show M-Bs influence, I think.

It is interesting to change up vehicles, yes...probably why I am replacing a recently departed German car with another German car...

[Robert Hall]

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

I think it is a close tie between the Mustang and Callenger with Camaro a distant second.

I have ridden in a couple of the current Mustangs, haven't driven one yet..the odd thing to me is they seem big on the outside--about as big as my '69--but the interior seems very tight, smaller than my '87...

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I have ridden in a couple of the current Mustangs, haven't driven one yet..the odd thing to me is they seem big on the outside--about as big as my '69--but the interior seems very tight, smaller than my '87...

Actually i test drove one, and was very comfortable.  We are roughly the same size...

I would rate both the Miata and BRZ as better overall drivers cars, but overall...the Mustang comes in second right behind the GTI for the best car overall under 50K that I have ever driven.

But the GTI comes in first IMHO...

Even though this is a thread started about my reservations about Ford....they get some things really right.

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I agree...I really like the Camaro, but it is nowhere near the car the Mustang or Challenger are.

And that's a bit of a subjective thing as well.  The current Camaro is a fantastic driving car, as would be expected for something based on a Cadillac. It is great if you want a sports car all the time.

The Mustang is a much more livable car for daily use and has a better blend of comfort and sport.  Put the Camaro and Mustang next to each other, and the Mustang will seemingly tower over the very low riding Camaro.

The Challenger doesn't have the suspension to keep up with the other two in handling, but it's big, fast in a straight line, and the most comfortable for a long distance (source: Me driving the Challenger and Mustang back and forth between Miami and Key West)

Which of the cars is "better" hinges entirely on which aspect you find most important.  For everyday driving, I value comfort over sport, so I would opt for a Challenger (Hemi ) or a Mustang (the seats are fantastic).  If I was taking something to the track regularly, I'd opt for a Camaro and something else to daily (hey, I'm getting old.. it's not easy to get into low slung cars as it use to be)

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And that's a bit of a subjective thing as well.  The current Camaro is a fantastic driving car, as would be expected for something based on a Cadillac. It is great if you want a sports car all the time.

The Mustang is a much more livable car for daily use and has a better blend of comfort and sport.  Put the Camaro and Mustang next to each other, and the Mustang will seemingly tower over the very low riding Camaro.

The Challenger doesn't have the suspension to keep up with the other two in handling, but it's big, fast in a straight line, and the most comfortable for a long distance (source: Me driving the Challenger and Mustang back and forth between Miami and Key West)

Which of the cars is "better" hinges entirely on which aspect you find most important.  For everyday driving, I value comfort over sport, so I would opt for a Challenger (Hemi ) or a Mustang (the seats are fantastic).  If I was taking something to the track regularly, I'd opt for a Camaro and something else to daily (hey, I'm getting old.. it's not easy to get into low slung cars as it use to be)

The whole interior is fantastic on the Mustang....and yes with a Hemi...O holy #$%^ on the Challenger.

See my impressions of the Camaro were more of it being a boulevard cruiser and I didn't find it as sporty or athletic as the Challenger or Mustang.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

The whole interior is fantastic on the Mustang....and yes with a Hemi...O holy #$%^ on the Challenger.

See my impressions of the Camaro were more of it being a boulevard cruiser and I didn't find it as sporty or athletic as the Challenger or Mustang.

Which year / model did you drive?  I would certainly agree with you if you were talking about 5th Gen Camaro.  I haven't driven a low end 6th gen, only highly optioned SS models. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

Which year / model did you drive?  I would certainly agree with you if you were talking about 5th Gen Camaro.  I haven't driven a low end 6th gen, only highly optioned SS models. 

5th gen V6 manual. Car just felt really heavy and unresponsive. I probably should have driven a 6th gen V6 manual in my latest quest for a car...

I think I liked the ecoboost Mustang I drove because it felt really nimble and the interior was fantastic...

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

5th gen V6 manual. Car just felt really heavy and unresponsive. I probably should have driven a 6th gen V6 manual in my latest quest for a car...

doh... probably the worst way to option that car because .... well it is heavy and unresponsive.   That was a big heavy car and the V6 was simply no match for all of that mass.  It's only when you opt for the small-block does the car have enough torque to move around smartly.  Equipped equivalently, the Mustang is much better... still a bit of a cruiser... but definitely more responsive. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

doh... probably the worst way to option that car because .... well it is heavy and unresponsive.   That was a big heavy car and the V6 was simply no match for all of that mass.  It's only when you opt for the small-block does the car have enough torque to move around smartly.  Equipped equivalently, the Mustang is much better... still a bit of a cruiser... but definitely more responsive. 

I would give my eye teeth for a Camaro SS but I drive a ton of miles and it would eat me up in fuel costs...

People are getting in the thirties with the Ecoboost Mustang driven responsibly which is just insane.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I would give my eye teeth for a Camaro SS but I drive a ton of miles and it would eat me up in fuel costs...

Challenger... honestly.  Even with the Hemi you'd do decent on fuel economy, but the V6 with the 8-speed runs plenty well enough to satisfy as a daily. Keep it at the legal speed limit, and you'll get some pretty surprising fuel economy too.

I'm not sure how Chrysler managed to make such a heavy car with a V6 run more energetically than the Camaro setup... but they did. 

[Frisky Dingo]

32 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I agree...I really like the Camaro, but it is nowhere near the car the Mustang or Challenger are.

 

You have it totally backwards.

 

The Camaro is the best car of the 3.

 

That said, it's the worst Pony Car, and it's the worst muscle car. If it were my money, I'd buy a Mustang GT Coupe.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

You have it totally backwards.

 

The Camaro is the best car of the 3.

 

That said, it's the worst Pony Car, and it's the worst muscle car. If it were my money, I'd buy a Mustang GT Coupe.

Interesting thought....but I love the exhaust note on the Mustang GT!

[oldshurst442]

All of us have these biases but most of us cant handle acceptance of others!

Some of us use semantics to justify our blindness...

Some of us LOVE to point out fallacies in arguments but INCREDIBLY WILLFULLY IGNORE those fallacies in our own arguments while sitting on a high horse!

I dont really hate on brands....only on fanboys...and on SEMANTIC driven discussions where blind loyalty or BLATANT HYPOCRISY is concerned.

I was recently schooled by a member in here where I found a car to be good looking and he doesnt but he used MY argument against me, problem is....in the same thread, this person defended an out dated look on a new car while schooling me....

Irony...he used frowny faces to frown upon a car that I deemed to be good looking....

THAT made me HATE on CADILLAC just know just because THAT particular person defended the current Arts and Science theme on the CT6...because he himself is a fan of  Cadillac!

You see...I LIKE the LC500

And YES, predator face works well on that car...

You may not like predator face on the SUVs and the big sedan....but JESUS EFFIN CHRIST!!!!

CANT YOU LOOK PAST THAT and SEE THE BEAUTY in a car that DOES NOT CONFORM to the USUAL HO HUM!!!!

ALL IN THE WHILE NOT SEEING A DATED LOOK AT A NEW EFFIN CAR THAT WAS and IS SUPPOSEDLY THE BEGINNING OF A NEW AGE AT CADILLAC JUST BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF IS A FANBOY FOR CADILLAC!!!

THE CT6 might have outsold the BMW 7 SERIES 2:1....IT SHOULD HAVE OUTSOLD THE BMW 7 SERIES 5:1!!!!

IRONY PART DEUX:

WE FROWN UPON ME SAYING THE LC500 IS A GOOD LOOKING CAR WHILE TRYING TO USE MY WORDS AGAINST ME, YET CADILLAC USES AN OUTDATED LOOK TO SELL ITS BRAND NEW FLAGSHIP, YET JDN DOES NOT CALL IT A FLAGSHIP, AND JDN DOES NOT OFFER A COMPETITOR TO THE LC500, YET WE MAKE FROWNY FACES TRYING TO OUT-SEMANTIC SMK FOR HIS LOVE OF MERCEDES AND MY LOVE FOR THE LC500!!!

THAT IS WHAT I FIND DEPLORABLE!!!

The only brand that gets  me all hot and bothered is BMW....only because my personal real life friends have put (in the past...like in the 1990s all the way to the mid-2000s) BMW on a undeserving high pedestal...and their attitude was much like what the Cadillac thread turned out!

Yeah...and those friends of mine jumped off the BMW bandwagon and are sucking on Audi's teat know!

I HATE the SEMANTICS and the DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!

I dont hate on the cars themselves!

I  may not like what those cars represent though!

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by oldshurst442

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

All of us have these biases but most of us cant handle acceptance of others!

Some of us use semantics to justify our blindness...

Some of us LOVE to point out fallacies in arguments but INCREDIBLY WILLFULLY IGNORE those fallacies in our own arguments while sitting on a high horse!

I dont really hate on brands....only on fanboys...and on SEMANTIC driven discussions where blind loyalty or BLATANT HYPOCRISY is concerned.

I was recently schooled by a member in here where I found a car to be good looking and he doesnt but he used MY argument against me, problem is....in the same thread, this person defended an out dated look on a new car while schooling me....

Irony...he used frowny faces to frown upon a car that I deemed to be good looking....

THAT made me HATE on CADILLAC just know just because THAT particular person defended the current Arts and Science theme on the CT6...because he himself is a fan of  Cadillac!

You see...I LIKE the LC500

And YES, predator face works well on that car...

You may not like predator face on the SUVs and the big sedan....but JESUS EFFIN CHRIST!!!!

CANT YOU LOOK PAST THAT and SEE THE BEAUTY in a car that DOES NOT CONFORM to the USUAL HO HUM!!!!

ALL IN THE WHILE NOT SEEING A DATED LOOK AT A NEW EFFIN CAR THAT WAS and IS SUPPOSEDLY THE BEGINNING OF A NEW AGE AT CADILLAC JUST BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF IS A FANBOY FOR CADILLAC!!!

THE CT6 might have outsold the BMW 7 SERIES 2:1....IT SHOULD HAVE OUTSOLD THE BMW 7 SERIES 5:1!!!!

IRONY PART DEUX:

WE FROWN UPON ME SAYING THE LC500 IS A GOOD LOOKING CAR WHILE TRYING TO USE MY WORDS AGAINST ME, YET CADILLAC USES AN OUTDATED LOOK TO SELL ITS BRAND NEW FLAGSHIP, YET JDN DOES NOT CALL IT A FLAGSHIP, AND JDN DOES NOT OFFER A COMPETITOR TO THE LC500, YET WE MAKE FROWNY FACES TRYING TO OUT-SEMANTIC SMK FOR HIS LOVE OF MERCEDES AND MY LOVE FOR THE LC500!!!

THAT IS WHAT I FIND DEPLORABLE!!!

The only brand that gets  me all hot and bothered is BMW....only because my personal real life friends have put (in the past...like in the 1990s all the way to the mid-2000s) BMW on a undeserving high pedestal...and their attitude was much like what the Cadillac thread turned out!

Yeah...and those friends of mine jumped off the BMW bandwagon and are sucking on Audi's teat know!

I HATE the SEMANTICS and the DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!

I dont hate on the cars themselves!

I  may not like what those cars represent though!

 

See, for me there is just something about Ford itself that kind of gets under my skin in a bad sort of way and I wish i knew what it was. I have gotten rather efficient at talking friends and family out of buying them.

I actually like different viewpoints as it gives me a chance to learn. There is no expectation that anyone else has my interests or tastes in cars...

[Robert Hall]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:46 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Challenger... honestly.  Even with the Hemi you'd do decent on fuel economy, but the V6 with the 8-speed runs plenty well enough to satisfy as a daily. Keep it at the legal speed limit, and you'll get some pretty surprising fuel economy too.

I'm not sure how Chrysler managed to make such a heavy car with a V6 run more energetically than the Camaro setup... but they did. 

The Challenger has the most appeal to me of any of the 3 Detroit 'pony' cars.. I don't care if it's the oldest or the worst handling of the 3, something about the combination of retro-modern '70s styling and the size and heft deeply appeal to me...I think in 3 years for my turning-50 midlife crisis, I will have to get one....SRT 392 w/ a manual, ideally in dark brown w/ a tan/brown interior..

Edited June 20, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

@A Horse With No Name

Well...this thing about Ford that you have is perfectly normal.

You dont like Ford....you. dont. like. Ford. period.

No need to justify your feelings to anybody.

You wouldnt be able to talk to me outta of any brand though as I have my own biases and agendas that I deal with...INTERNALLY!

When I buy a car...

1. I look to GM first.

2. then I look to all other cars and brands that are in the same price bracket and more or less same  category that fits my buying and usage needs for that point in time

3. I narrow the list down to the  cars that best fit my needs both financially and practicality.

4. then I buy the right  car for me based on those biases and agendas.

5. Looks of the  car is on top of that list.

6. "Buy American" is high on that list...GM being at the top of that "Buy American" list.

7. Yes....cars and brands that I deem to be douchey based on stupid anecdotes and personal feelings towards a certain brand because of personal reasons as shallow as my friends being douchey because of what cars they drive and respect is a factor!

With that being said...I dont help people buy cars...people have their very own biases and agendas regarding  cars that I noticed gets to be MORE sensitive than actual talk of politics...so I just play dumb when the conversation turns to what  cars are the best and what  cars should be bought......

I talk car talk all the time...but its more on the lines of Jay Lenos Garage.

People know Im car crazy, but they also know I LOVE ALL KINDS OF CARS...but they know that  my PREFERENCE is American Muscle! 

Some folks have a problem with that too! But I wax poetic in such a way that makes American Muscle cars cool and I make it known that I dont care what they think about them!

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

21 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The Challenger has the most appeal to me of any of the 3 Detroit 'pony' cars.. I don't care if it's the oldest or the worst handling of the 3, something about the combination of retro-modern '70s styling and the size and heft deeply appeal to me...I think in 3 years for my turning-50 midlife crisis, I will have to get one....SRT 392 w/ a manual. 

I feel like this 100% myself!

And I get quite ANNOYED when people say the Challenger handles badly!

They dont handle badly!

They are quite capable!

And...at the end of the day, they handle just as good as any car on the road today!

No....not at Ferrari or Corvette levels or even Alpha Camaro 1LE levels, but at the very least, Acura TL SH-AWD levels especially at the LEGAL LIMITS of the POSTED SPEED LIMIT!!!

And....if anything, they are eons and eons and eons and eons ahead of what the Mustang and the Camaro and Firebird of the mid1990s-early 2000s handled!

And....at the very least, are not too far away from being on par handlers with many German lux sedans of that same time frame....after all, the platform and suspension set-ups are from that same time frame...and MOPAR engineers did improve from that anyway! And I dont recall, even today in 2017, ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING CRAPPY ON HANDLING ON THESE GERMAN CARS FROM THAT TIME FRAME (1990s) WAS!!! AU CONTRAIRE....PEOPLE PRAISE THESE  CARS EVEN IN 2017!

So yeah!

The hypocrisy and semantic driven drivel and bias is inescapable!

[A Horse With No Name]

See, for me it is all about the driving experience.

This pic is via Frisky dingo of an R line beetle, the car I just bought is an R line Beetle in this color but it is not my particular car.

[A Horse With No Name]

We looked at several cars, but in the end what we really kind of wanted was actually a BRZ or FRS/86.  My wife and I put nimble handling at the top of the list...but needed a family car.

We raised 5 kids and for several years (about 5) we had a Miata and Cooper S as our only cars.

I think we will see a GTI in my driveway at some point, it is at the top of my bucket list....

My 24 year old son is doing very well at his job, he currently owns a Lexus SC 300 and Acura TL....both of which he has paid off. He is looking at the Porsche Cayman (used) as his next car...not sure if he will keep the Acura or sell it to buy the Cayman...

I could see a (used)  Cayman in my future.

Going to hold off on the FRS/BRZ a bit as my 21 year old daughter just graduated from college and wants one...and I don't want to steal her thunder...she is fine if we both own one, she just wants to own hers first...

She also wants World Rally Blue so I would get maybe black or carbon grey fro the BRZ if I wind up with one.

Plan on doing autocross again, so I will probably modify my Cooper S at some point to handle better.

Anyhoo....Love the Fiesta ST but I just like the chassis tuning in the GTI/BRZ/FRS/ Miata/Cayman better, so those would be my choices.

Actually i would prefer a Lotus Caterham 7 or an Elise....but not sure that is practical in Ohio weather!

Although we do have locals that drive Cobra Replicas year round...

[Robert Hall]

26 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

Although we do have locals that drive Cobra Replicas year round...

I had a professor in college at Kent State that drove a real Cobra occasionally...  a 1967 427 Cobra, dark green, CSX number PI..Dr. Kenneth Batcher, creator of the Batcher sort algorithm...looked like a thinner Santa Claus w/ big white beard, former Goodyear Aerospace researcher.  He had bought the Cobra new when he was a young PhD.   When I was at KSU in the early 90s he usually drove a black mid 80s Crown Vic, but often drove the Cobra...would see it sitting in the lot near the Computer Science labs, with a fair bit of patina...wonder where it is now...

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I had a professor in college at Kent State that drove a real Cobra occasionally...  a 1967 427 Cobra, dark green, CSX number PI..Dr. Kenneth Batcher, creator of the Batcher sort algorithm...looked like a thinner Santa Claus w/ big white beard, former Goodyear Aerospace researcher.  He had bought the Cobra new when he was a young PhD.   When I was at KSU in the early 90s he usually drove a black mid 80s Crown Vic, but often drove the Cobra...would see it sitting in the lot near the Computer Science labs, with a fair bit of patina...wonder where it is now...

I love it when muscle cars are actually driven.  I used to drive my 55 Chevy everywhere, even to pick up the babysitter for the kids...

[ykX]

@A Horse With No Name  wow, you have the whole family of car enthusiasts.  That's great! Your wife drives stick as well? 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

47 minutes ago, ykX said:

@A Horse With No Name  wow, you have the whole family of car enthusiasts.  That's great! Your wife drives stick as well? 

 

Yes, she strongly prefers it, as does my 21 year old daughter!

[Robert Hall]

Reminds me of my family a bit..everyone liked to drive w/ a stick shift...my Mom even drove cars with manual steering, manual brakes and manual shift often well into the 1980s... my sister had multiple cars with manuals--3 Datsun/Nissan Zs, and a SAAB 900 Turbo...my Dad, brother and I have all had many cars w/ manuals, fun ones and practical ones..

Edited June 20, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

43 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Reminds me of my family a bit..everyone liked to drive w/ a stick shift...my Mom even drove cars with manual steering, manual brakes and manual shift often well into the 1980s... my sister had multiple cars with manuals--3 Datsun/Nissan Zs, and a SAAB 900 Turbo...my Dad, brother and I have all had many cars w/ manuals, fun ones and practical ones..

Kind of nice when a family enjoys the same things...

[Drew Dowdell]

My parents both only drove manuals until my mother was injured at work and couldn't do it anymore.  My sister and I were both taught on manuals.

[A Horse With No Name]

12 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

My parents both only drove manuals until my mother was injured at work and couldn't do it anymore.  My sister and I were both taught on manuals.

It is nice to know, even if you drive an automatic.

[ykX]

That is very nice if the whole family shares automotive passion.

My dad drove manual almost all of his life but more out of necessity, he is no car enthusiast.  I have tried to teach my wife but she doesn't really wants to.

Actually, and very unfortunately non of my family or for that matter friends are car enthusiasts.

[G. David Felt]

20 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

See, for me there is just something about Ford itself that kind of gets under my skin in a bad sort of way and I wish i knew what it was. I have gotten rather efficient at talking friends and family out of buying them.

I actually like different viewpoints as it gives me a chance to learn. There is no expectation that anyone else has my interests or tastes in cars...

Your just feeling the slimmy used car snake oil salesman approach that FORD seems to train their people to be like.

FORD has product I like, but their sales approach of the dealerships sucks. I have been to them many times and while I do not talk a person out of buying a FORD product, many have ended up not buying due to the way the dealerships represent the products and their selling approach of any auto.

In the case of my son who just bought a Grand Jeep Cherokee. He really liked the looks of the Ford Explorer Sport, but after test driving it and the hounding the sales people did and even the sales manager, he went to Jeep and test drove, 3 different times, no pressure and eventually bought. He did make one comment on the Ford, as much fun as it was to drive the Sport with the Ecoboost TurboV6, the interior compared to the Jeep had a certain cheapness about it in the feel and look of the interior.

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

My parents both only drove manuals until my mother was injured at work and couldn't do it anymore.  My sister and I were both taught on manuals.

My family was the same way growing up till arthritis started to hit my mom. My sisters and I all drove manuals. My wife and I did as did our kids but that has changed in the last 17 years as everything we have is an auto. My first auto was the 1994 GMC SLE Suburban I still own and was the only auto till the 1999 Durango we got for our daughter. Working in Seattle always on steep hills, manuals suck. So since then auto's is the standard and better mpg. But at least everyone can drive a manual.

[A Horse With No Name]

It is sad when our parents age, same thing happened to my mom, she drove a manual until a couple of years ago.  Now she has an inoperable eye disease and will only be driving for a couple more years...

[ykX]

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Your just feeling the slimmy used car snake oil salesman approach that FORD seems to train their people to be like.

With all due respect I have been to many dealerships including GM and Ford and I haven't seen ANY difference among salesman.  Chevy dealer was no better or worse then any other.  

I think it is much more dependent on an individual dealership and sales practices it allows.  When I was buying car for my parents we have been in two Honda dealerships.  In one after a test drive I told my parents we need to leave, it felt wrong all the way.  Another dealer we went to was nothing but positive experience.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, ykX said:

With all due respect I have been to many dealerships including GM and Ford and I haven't seen ANY difference among salesman.  Chevy dealer was no better or worse then any other.  

I think it is much more dependent on an individual dealership and sales practices it allows.  When I was buying car for my parents we have been in two Honda dealerships.  In one after a test drive I told my parents we need to leave, it felt wrong all the way.  Another dealer we went to was nothing but positive experience.

Your welcome to your opinion of your experience at the dealerships. Mine has never been a positive one at FORD. Sadly FORD has had many bad dealerships on the west coast that have been sued along with ford and FORD has just move owners around and yet the experience stays the same. It is as if FORD takes a Catholic view of their dealerships and just moves troubled owners and staff around never really fixing the problem much like the church has done with priests.

As I said, I like some of their products but the dealership experience has left me wishing FORD sold direct and I did not have to deal with the dealership.

[A Horse With No Name]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Your welcome to your opinion of your experience at the dealerships. Mine has never been a positive one at FORD. Sadly FORD has had many bad dealerships on the west coast that have been sued along with ford and FORD has just move owners around and yet the experience stays the same. It is as if FORD takes a Catholic view of their dealerships and just moves troubled owners and staff around never really fixing the problem much like the church has done with priests.

As I said, I like some of their products but the dealership experience has left me wishing FORD sold direct and I did not have to deal with the dealership.

I have issues with Ford motor company itself for whatever reason...here in Columbus we ahve Germain Ford which might be one of the most professional dealerships in all of Columbus.  Nothing but positive to say about them.

Although i went in there a few years back with one of my friends to drive a particular Ford performance product...friend was one of my SCCA buddies who loves to drive fast...salesman said give her all she's got, drive as fast as you want....I think the salesman's face went purple when the car took a freeway on ramp at triple digit speeds...

[Robert Hall]

My personal experience with Fords is so dated (the newest I've owned was a 1988, and my Mom, brother and sister have all had Explorers, the newest being 1999) that I have a pretty neutral view of the company.   I've driven a '16 Escape and Fusion as rentals for a week each...their current products seem decent to me, but I probably wouldn't choose an Edge or Explorer over a Jeep...

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

My personal experience with Fords is so dated (the newest I've owned was a 1988, and my Mom, brother and sister have all had Explorers, the newest being 1999) that I have a pretty neutral view of the company.   I've driven a '16 Escape and Fusion as rentals for a week each...their current products seem decent to me, but I probably wouldn't choose an Edge or Explorer over a Jeep...

...and this is where I am....everything is decent...nothing whatsoever other than the mustang or the f series truck wins out over the competition for me on any kind of a real basis.

My newest daily driver was a 1985 Ford Mustang...we bought it as a late model used car back about 1990 or so...every ford I ahve owned has been eligible for Historical plates for the better part of a decade or better.

But I would agree, Jeep has multiple orders of magnitude better emotional appeal than anything Ford builds as a SUV IMHO. 

Honestly for a jeep Grand Cherokee equipped with the right off road package and in the right color...I don't think Ford builds a product outside of the GT I would rather own.