Honda News: Two Reasons As To Why the Civic Si Only Produces 205 HP

[William Maley]

The echo of a sad trombone could be heard when Honda announced that the new Civic Si would only produce 205 horsepower from a turbocharged 1.5L four-cylinder. Fans were hoping for a bit more power and Honda's engineers say there is more power on tap. But there are two key reasons as to why the Japanese automaker did this.

The engineers said "you can tune more power into it, but all of that takes away from the durability of the engine," said Rob Keough, senior product planner on the Civic to Automotive News.

"Honda likes to build their engines to last hundreds of thousands of miles, so they're working toward that target."

The other reason comes down to price. Honda wanted to keep the Si affordable while adding some impressive performance parts such as a limited-slip differential and adaptive suspension.

"The Si has always been in the [price] range that it's in. We wanted it to be attainable and affordable, so our target for Si was really to come in at this price point with this performance level," said Keough.

For example, if Honda was to use a detuned version of the turbo 2.0L found in the Civic Type R, that would push the price to nearly $30,000.

Keough didn't rule out the possibility of there being a variant between the Si and Type R that would offer a bit more power. He also didn't rule out using a detuned Type R motor for this model.

"There's maybe other configurations and things that they can do with this motor," said Keough.

We have a possible name for this possible model, Civic SiR.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[Drew Dowdell]

There is no replacement for displacement..... they have other engines out there, they should have turboed them. 

[smk4565]

For a front drive small car, that is enough for the Si.  Especially since they make a Civic R with 300 hp.  And i makes sense to keep the Is cheap enough for people to buy it without pricing out their customer base.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There is no replacement for displacement..... they have other engines out there, they should have turboed them. 

Ohhhhhhhhh absolutely! This car does not even rate a test drive IMHO.

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

For a front drive small car, that is enough for the Si.  Especially since they make a Civic R with 300 hp.  And i makes sense to keep the Is cheap enough for people to buy it without pricing out their customer base.

WRX, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang, ST twins, BRZ, Miata, Fiat 124 all better than the SI in so many ways!

[Anthony Fongaro]

Power wise it is disappointing. Pricing is very competitive but on paper, it just doesn't seem like it will be competitive against the Golf GTI and Focus ST. We shall see.

[A Horse With No Name]

8 hours ago, Anthony Fongaro said:

Power wise it is disappointing. Pricing is very competitive but on paper, it just doesn't seem like it will be competitive against the Golf GTI and Focus ST. We shall see.

As a guy shopping cars in this category, it really is not...

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

For a front drive small car, that is enough for the Si.  Especially since they make a Civic R with 300 hp.  And i makes sense to keep the Is cheap enough for people to buy it without pricing out their customer base.

As some one who is always blowing the MB horn and saying it has to have the most powerful engines in every class at every model. Your comment makes no sense for the first two sentences.

Now the 3rd sentence is what you should have started off with.

It makes sense to keep it priced where they have it for their customer base of which many will not be looking at the competition nor at the Horsepower. Yet for those that do, this car is a failure in the competition of this class.

I get the feeling that Honda Marketing really does not research their competition very well nor cares too. It is as if they are happy with just their loyal car fans who will follow what ever weak attempt they make.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I get the feeling that Honda Marketing really does not research their competition very well nor cares too. It is as if they are happy with just their loyal car fans who will follow what ever weak attempt they make.

People are catching up to the idea that Honda is also resting on their laurels. perhaps the only Asian brand that isn't is Subaru, with Mazda a distant second.  Mazda is very small and has a much smaller R and D budget...

And even then Subaru has a VERY limited product lineup compared to other brands. No Luxury lineup...no trucks...no pure high powered sports cars like the Corvette or Shelby Mustang...No large heavy duty SUV's...no really small sub compacts...no leading hybrid tech...no pure electrics...and the list goes on.

It is much easier to keep a very small product lineup up to date than a very broad one like GM and Ford have....or even VW, with Porsche, Bugatti, Bentley, Skoda, VW, Seat, ....

[Stew]

205 HP, 6 speed manuial, and weighs roughly 2900 pounds and a real limited slip.

The ST may have 252 HP, but is also nearly 3300 pounds.  It's straight-line performance has always been kinda lackluster for the HP rating.  (My Beetle Turbo can do the same 6.3 0-60 with 200HP and 3000 pounds as C&D's last ST roadtest). 

 

GTi is 220 HP, but 3100-3200 pounds.Though, it is certainly underrated I am sure. 

 

there is also the price  The SI runs thousands less than those competitors and also comes with some very nice features such as the larger touchscreen with Apple CarPlay and Android auto, the blindspot camera in the passenger mirror, the limited slip, the adjustable dampers, etc, etc.  It is a hell of a deal for under 25k. 

[A Horse With No Name]

29 minutes ago, Stew said:

205 HP, 6 speed manuial, and weighs roughly 2900 pounds and a real limited slip.

The ST may have 252 HP, but is also nearly 3300 pounds.  It's straight-line performance has always been kinda lackluster for the HP rating.  (My Beetle Turbo can do the same 6.3 0-60 with 200HP and 3000 pounds as C&D's last ST roadtest). 

 

GTi is 220 HP, but 3100-3200 pounds.Though, it is certainly underrated I am sure. 

 

there is also the price  The SI runs thousands less than those competitors and also comes with some very nice features such as the larger touchscreen with Apple CarPlay and Android auto, the blindspot camera in the passenger mirror, the limited slip, the adjustable dampers, etc, etc.  It is a hell of a deal for under 25k. 

I will agree it is a hell of a deal, but I would still choose almost any of its direct competitors before I would pick the Honda.

[Frisky Dingo]

Well, no duh.

This car isn't leaving a whole lot on the table, I can promise you that.

Sounds to me like this Si should have been the Sport, and they should have given the Si a detuned 2.0T and dual clutch trans from Acura.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Stew said:

205 HP, 6 speed manuial, and weighs roughly 2900 pounds and a real limited slip.

The ST may have 252 HP, but is also nearly 3300 pounds.  It's straight-line performance has always been kinda lackluster for the HP rating.  (My Beetle Turbo can do the same 6.3 0-60 with 200HP and 3000 pounds as C&D's last ST roadtest). 

 

GTi is 220 HP, but 3100-3200 pounds.Though, it is certainly underrated I am sure. 

 

there is also the price  The SI runs thousands less than those competitors and also comes with some very nice features such as the larger touchscreen with Apple CarPlay and Android auto, the blindspot camera in the passenger mirror, the limited slip, the adjustable dampers, etc, etc.  It is a hell of a deal for under 25k. 

 

The ST is towards the end of it's life, and is outgunned as it is.

 

The GTI gets down under 3,100 depending on equipment, has 30 more hp than it's rated at, offers a significant chunk of what the Si offers as standard, and has much greater aftermarket support.

 

As I said before, this car has a strong value quotient compared to base econo-boxes on the market, but it's not a full-on hot hatch.

[Stew]

23 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Well, no duh.

This car isn't leaving a whole lot on the table, I can promise you that.

Sounds to me like this Si should have been the Sport, and they should have given the Si a detuned 2.0T and dual clutch trans from Acura.

 

 

 

The ST is towards the end of it's life, and is outgunned as it is.

 

The GTI gets down under 3,100 depending on equipment, has 30 more hp than it's rated at, offers a significant chunk of what the Si offers as standard, and has much greater aftermarket support.

 

As I said before, this car has a strong value quotient compared to base econo-boxes on the market, but it's not a full-on hot hatch.

They don't offer the SI in hatch form at all actually, which irks me.  An EX with the CVT is decently quick though with 0-60 in around 6.8 seconds.  they have the Sport with 180 HP, but it is based on the LX which lacks a lot of features.  I was looking at Civic Hatches this weekend, they have really grown n me, but I don't like having to choose between the wanted features or getting the manual trans. the ST never impressed me.  It was barely a match for the old GTi which was in it's last year at the ime. 

 

And the GTi is the one and king of this sector, no doubt.  I just wish the closest VW dealership wasn't so far away.  That is being a bit of an issue with the bug. 

[A Horse With No Name]

54 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The GTI gets down under 3,100 depending on equipment, has 30 more hp than it's rated at, offers a significant chunk of what the Si offers as standard, and has much greater aftermarket support.

 

As I said before, this car has a strong value quotient compared to base econo-boxes on the market, but it's not a full-on hot hatch.

Exactly...plus with an APR tune, the GTI will smoke much more expensive performance cars...and run off into the horizon and hide from an SI.

And no, the Si is not a full on hot hatch...

33 minutes ago, Stew said:

They don't offer the SI in hatch form at all actually, which irks me.  An EX with the CVT is decently quick though with 0-60 in around 6.8 seconds.  they have the Sport with 180 HP, but it is based on the LX which lacks a lot of features.  I was looking at Civic Hatches this weekend, they have really grown n me, but I don't like having to choose between the wanted features or getting the manual trans. the ST never impressed me.  It was barely a match for the old GTi which was in it's last year at the ime. 

 

And the GTi is the one and king of this sector, no doubt.  I just wish the closest VW dealership wasn't so far away.  That is being a bit of an issue with the bug. 

The ST is a really nice car, but not what the GTI is.

You could perhaps find a local mechanic familiar with foreign cars?

Edited June 5, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[Stew]

4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Exactly...plus with an APR tune, the GTI will smoke much more expensive performance cars...and run off into the horizon and hide from an SI.

And no, the Si is not a full on hot hatch...

The ST is a really nice car, but not what the GTI is.

You could perhaps find a local mechanic familiar with foreign cars?

Well, has to do with warranty work.  Got that nice messed up intake that effects the 2.0T engines.  The bug is covered under the extended warranty, but time is at a premium right now to say the least. 

[cp-the-nerd]

I think the new Si might seem underwhelming on paper, but the jury is out on real-world performance. The mass-market tuned 1.5T already punches above its weight, the Civic sport hatchback equipped with a manual and rated 180 hp/177 lb-ft ran 7 sec 0-60 and a solid 15.2 @ 94 mph in an instrumented test by C&D, other examples have managed sub-7 second sprints like others have mentioned. This could potentially be the fastest Si yet, and a great driving performance car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-15t-manual-test-review

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, Stew said:

Well, has to do with warranty work.  Got that nice messed up intake that effects the 2.0T engines.  The bug is covered under the extended warranty, but time is at a premium right now to say the least. 

I can appreciate that....!

Just now, cp-the-nerd said:

I think the new Si might seem underwhelming on paper, but the jury is out on real-world performance. The mass-market tuned 1.5T already punches above its weight, the Civic sport hatchback equipped with a manual and rated 180 hp/177 lb-ft ran 7 sec 0-60 and a solid 15.2 @ 94 mph in an instrumented test by C&D, other examples have managed sub-7 second sprints like others have mentioned. This could potentially be the fastest Si yet, and a great driving performance car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-15t-manual-test-review

The question isn't if it is a great value and a great performance car, but if it is up to its competitors.  I would maintain the money is better spent elsewhere.

[Stew]

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I can appreciate that....!

 

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I can appreciate that....!

I love my bug, don't get me wrong.  Some of the little issues get annoying though. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Stew said:

 

I love my bug, don't get me wrong.  Some of the little issues get annoying though. 

True....!

[cp-the-nerd]

8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The question isn't if it is a great value and a great performance car, but if it is up to its competitors.  I would maintain the money is better spent elsewhere.

I repeat: I think the new Si might seem underwhelming on paper, but the jury is out on real-world performance.

I'm not saying it's better or worse than anything, I'm saying it's too early to write it off. The current Civic is a very different machine than the recent generation.

[Stew]

15 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I repeat: I think the new Si might seem underwhelming on paper, but the jury is out on real-world performance.

I'm not saying it's better or worse than anything, I'm saying it's too early to write it off. The current Civic is a very different machine than the recent generation.

My thoughts as well. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I repeat: I think the new Si might seem underwhelming on paper, but the jury is out on real-world performance.

I'm not saying it's better or worse than anything, I'm saying it's too early to write it off. The current Civic is a very different machine than the recent generation.

I would agree on writing it off completely, but I am not seeing anything that gives me much hope.

[smk4565]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:41 AM, dfelt said:

As some one who is always blowing the MB horn and saying it has to have the most powerful engines in every class at every model. Your comment makes no sense for the first two sentences.

Now the 3rd sentence is what you should have started off with.

It makes sense to keep it priced where they have it for their customer base of which many will not be looking at the competition nor at the Horsepower. Yet for those that do, this car is a failure in the competition of this class.

I get the feeling that Honda Marketing really does not research their competition very well nor cares too. It is as if they are happy with just their loyal car fans who will follow what ever weak attempt they make.

The Si isn't the top model, so 205 hp is fine.  They make a 300+ hp Civic type R.    And a couple of Honda's trademarks are fuel economy and reliability, so it is good that they stick to their core values.  And as I said they have a 300 hp version which way more than any Cruze, Elantra, Mazda 3, Corolla or Sentra.

[Stew]

Another thing I have been thinking about, he SI has never been about outright power.  It is about fun to drive, reliability, and FE at a great price.  This has that in spades and is on my short list for my next car. 

[A Horse With No Name]

59 minutes ago, Stew said:

Another thing I have been thinking about, he SI has never been about outright power.  It is about fun to drive, reliability, and FE at a great price.  This has that in spades and is on my short list for my next car. 

I could see that, it might be a nice choice...but ti will get smoked at my local autocross by the Focus St, GTI, Fiesta St, BRZ/FRS/86, Miata, Fiat 124 Spyder, and every other hot car out there.

Since I want to run my next car hard, not really thinking an SI is on my short list.

[Stew]

7 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I could see that, it might be a nice choice...but ti will get smoked at my local autocross by the Focus St, GTI, Fiesta St, BRZ/FRS/86, Miata, Fiat 124 Spyder, and every other hot car out there.

Since I want to run my next car hard, not really thinking an SI is on my short list.

I am not so sure about that.  This new SI is a totally new animal that comes with a dual mode electronic suspension.  It is also so much lighter than, especially the ST, that it will simply turn in harder, especially having a true limited slip diff.  Considering the last gen SI had hit 60 as quick as 6.1 (12 model) at 60 pounds heavier and a lot less torque, I could this doing a 6 flat or possibly a high 5 0-60 which puts it right with the others, or quicker in the case of the ST.  It has a much better torque curve than the previous one as well. 

[A Horse With No Name]

42 minutes ago, Stew said:

I am not so sure about that.  This new SI is a totally new animal that comes with a dual mode electronic suspension.  It is also so much lighter than, especially the ST, that it will simply turn in harder, especially having a true limited slip diff.  Considering the last gen SI had hit 60 as quick as 6.1 (12 model) at 60 pounds heavier and a lot less torque, I could this doing a 6 flat or possibly a high 5 0-60 which puts it right with the others, or quicker in the case of the ST.  It has a much better torque curve than the previous one as well. 

Hmmm.....I may have to try one out...

 

This is a very good review of this car-I like this guy, he is very reality based and fair in his reviews. he also has a lot of other good videos.

[A Horse With No Name]

Stew, I thought of you with this one...

 

His BRZ review;

 

Yes, a series Blue and it is white...

I thought of Dfelt with this one...

 

FRS review...unlike the Subaru, this is BLUE...

 

His thoughts on the GTI;

 

Review of the Ecoboost Mustang;

 

[A Horse With No Name]

Astonishingly overwhelmingly amazingly impressed with the Ecoboost Mustang, Ford just has it going on with this.

 

Review of the Miata...why Mazda only offered three colors, all of which a 1941 Plymouth would find too dowdy to wear...is beyond me...

 

Another link on the gorgeous Ecoboost....

Don't tell anyone here, but I could be talked into an Accord V6 manual.

 

The Mustang is multiple orders of magnitude better looking though, and the interior is the Mustang is FAR more comfortable IMHO. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by A Horse With No Name
Spelling

[A Horse With No Name]

 

A really nice review of the ATS-V...

 

A good 4 way match up...interesting review...

For Olds Hurst, if he reads this far....a nice review by the same gentleman of the Challenger!

 

 

Last video for now, and my favorite of all of his reviews....perhaps 4 of my favorite affordable cars on the planet right now.

[Stew]

Awesome  I certainly need to check these out.

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

26 minutes ago, Stew said:

Awesome  I certainly need to check these out.

 

 

Enjoy and would love to know your thoughts on any of the above cars.  I am buying a car in a  couple of months and feel really unsure of what to do.

[Stew]

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Enjoy and would love to know your thoughts on any of the above cars.  I am buying a car in a  couple of months and feel really unsure of what to do.

Right now I am weary of VW, but would probably have more confidence in a newer GTi on the newest platform.  All of those cars have such different personalities.  I can say for me The SI is at the top of my list  I like the look of the SI (the blackout treatment makes a huge difference), I love the interior and features, Power is fine, The ability to average in the mid to high 30s is major, and I like the fact they kept a cap on power to keep it reliable.  If the Jetta was on the new MQB I would certainly consider it.  It just depends on what ou want.  The miata/124 just aren't cup of tea because of the size, BRZ and GT86 really intrigue me, but I don't know about winter driving.  Luckily we have the best of the best right now in affordable and small fun to drive cars and soooo much choice. 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

Right now I am weary of VW, but would probably have more confidence in a newer GTi on the newest platform.  All of those cars have such different personalities.  I can say for me The SI is at the top of my list  I like the look of the SI (the blackout treatment makes a huge difference), I love the interior and features, Power is fine, The ability to average in the mid to high 30s is major, and I like the fact they kept a cap on power to keep it reliable.  If the Jetta was on the new MQB I would certainly consider it.  It just depends on what ou want.  The miata/124 just aren't cup of tea because of the size, BRZ and GT86 really intrigue me, but I don't know about winter driving.  Luckily we have the best of the best right now in affordable and small fun to drive cars and soooo much choice. 

...agree on the choice thing...and maybe I need to drive an SI before I lay down cash...

[Stew]

10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

...agree on the choice thing...and maybe I need to drive an SI before I lay down cash...

Couldn't hurt.  Sounds like a great choice to ring them all out  

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, Stew said:

Couldn't hurt.  Sounds like a great choice to ring them all out  

...you got a point there!

[oldshurst442]

On 2017-06-07 at 6:26 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

 

A really nice review of the ATS-V...

 

A good 4 way match up...interesting review...

For Olds Hurst, if he reads this far....a nice review by the same gentleman of the Challenger!

 

 

Last video for now, and my favorite of all of his reviews....perhaps 4 of my favorite affordable cars on the planet right now.

Ill listen to all of these tomorrow.

Daughter's softball game yesterday, son's baseball game tonight. Im assistant coach for both. Im exhausted.

Im just lurking around in here reading and catching up on the news. Cadillac sales up 32% worldwide, new BMW SUV with a V12 maybe, Tesla Model 3 options are limited, etc...

My brain is wired on perfect batting stances and getting under the ball to catch pop flys and what inning is this to how many outs are there...

My opinions on cars for the moment is non-existent.