Review: 2017 Cadillac CT6 Platinum 3.0TT

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Yeah.. please do. Compare a car that comes in at about $90K Fully Loaded, AWD, 4WSteering, All the tech, 400hp/400ft-lb, gorgeous.. big... exclusive.. lighter than not only the E-Class below it.. but the C-Class in some iterations.. Compare that to the moving refrigerator of a car the $92K S-Class base model.. a car that I can personally can tell U I rented in Vegas a few years back.. just so I could leave my juices and the woman's I was with on the backseat outta disrespect for the car.

I mean I seriously got dirty when I yanked out... So much so that I'm surprised that I didn't get a call from the rental company telling me I had to pay child support 9 months later... not to the woman.. but the car. f@#k a Benz??? Yeah.. I did that

Like Drew said.. GARBAGE

 

 

Fully loaded is relative.  The CT6 doesn't have a V8 or a V12, doesn't have a refrigerator, heated arm rests, a sunroof that can change from clear glass to solid with push up a button, doesn't have pillow head rests or champagne flutes, no autonomous drive or Lidar, the list goes on.  You can option an S-class up to $250,000.  If the CT6 was so good, then Cadillac would charge $130,000 for it and sell 100,000 a year.  But they can't do that, the S-class is the only car in the world that can sell that volume at that price.  Escalade isn't even sold in Europe or China, so Cadillac's premier product though a huge cash cow in the USA misses completely in 2 of the 3 largest auto markets in the world.

[oldshurst442]

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The AMG V12 hasn't really seen an power increase in 10 years, because they want to protect the transmission and drivetrain and not have reliability issues.  Plus you can only get so much power on the ground.  There was talk a couple years ago that AMG would raise the power of the V12, that engine makes well over 800 lb-ft but they de-tune it.  But they haven't done anything.  I'd like to see them get all wheel drive matched with the V12 so they can get the power down and let it loose. 

Mercedes can get 200 hp per liter if they want, they already do it on the CLA45, their F1 car makes like 500 hp per liter.  So the know how is there, they just don't seem to want to change the V12.

Ferrari doesn't do a lot with batteries, the LaFerrari is more like the F1 energy recovery system and electric boost motor, I don't think think it can drive on battery alone like the Porsche 918 can.  I think when AMG gets into that, they are going to make a big splash, because they are going to apply the F1 technology to the road,

Yep, and police cars, and emergency services SUVs, military trucks, semi trucks, garbage trucks, busses, etc.  All that and still no one can beat them in luxury cars, no one can beat them in racing.

Yes they sure have de-tuned it...

Pagani uses this engine with its fullest potential intact...but uses a transmission from another company other than what M-B uses...that does not bode well for the "prestige" of owning a Mercedes-Benz V12...

Its funny as both GM and Chrsyler use their own transmissions WITHOUT the fear of catastrophic failure..

And..lest NOT forget that the HOT ROD world pushes MOPAR and GM engines to HYPERCAR levels OFTEN using the transmissions that GM or MOPAR produce!

Also....in time....A Pagani, or a M-B Black Series will just be LS swapped...just like the Ferraris every other car out there....

I was searching to post a Ferrari but this came up....LAMBORGHINIS are not safe either anymore...

So much for prestigious Italian prouncing horses and V12s being the Grand Daddy of them all!

The Corvette V8 looks like its the MOTHER of all engines!

 

A Cadillac CT8 with a CADILLAC V8 will do just fine in the UBER class!

Remember

This is what Cadillac does best

And there was a 500 cubic inch V8 under that hood.

THAT is what people want from Cadillac. There is no need for a V12.

And THAT is why I said a V12 means shyte!

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Fully loaded is relative.  The CT6 doesn't have a V8 or a V12, doesn't have a refrigerator, heated arm rests, a sunroof that can change from clear glass to solid with push up a button, doesn't have pillow head rests or champagne flutes, no autonomous drive or Lidar, the list goes on.  You can option an S-class up to $250,000.  If the CT6 was so good, then Cadillac would charge $130,000 for it and sell 100,000 a year.  But they can't do that, the S-class is the only car in the world that can sell that volume at that price.  Escalade isn't even sold in Europe or China, so Cadillac's premier product though a huge cash cow in the USA misses completely in 2 of the 3 largest auto markets in the world.

U still lose. What I'm saying is that the CT6 comes fully loaded about $10K less than the price the dime a dozen S550 4matic. Sick of looking at them..  They don't even come off as exclusive. BTW there sales are subsidized in the same way that Caddy sell excess XTSs. The CT8 has great potential of creating a beautiful extention of an excellent, well thought out line of luxury vehicles. What you should fear is the fact that Cadillac is selling more vehicles in China than the US without the need for the Slade. Again.. Adding anymore vehicles to the line will only add volume in a positive way without a need to whore out everything under the tarp. Mercedes is a whore. A dirty skank of a whore who sucks fat ones that haven't been washed in days. 

[FAPTurbo]

arrive in a cadillac and people ask how much you got off sticker during a promotion

arrive in a mercedes and people ask you for a promotion

#justsayin

[oldshurst442]

16 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

arrive in a cadillac and people ask how much you got off sticker during a promotion

arrive in a mercedes and people ask you for a promotion

#justsayin

Yeah...sure...

With all the big shots that I serve at my restaurant with the leased dime a dozen C-Class or GLA who ask me the price difference between a hamburger and a cheeseburger and then bitch at the 50 cent difference and opt out for the cheese while paying their bill by credit  card....probably their loaded up credit card!

Or the baseball moms  that drive  in their big boy GL SUVs whose sons and daughters play baseball/softball with my kids and when we get invited to their homes...they got the big pools and the expensive BBQs and the pave uni exterior landscaping....all the parts that show from the OUTSIDE yet their basements are unfinished and their homes are literally empty on the inside and if furnished, furnished with IKEA furniture....

 

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by oldshurst442

[frogger]

In Canada if you show up in a current CTS (less than 100 sell a month) or CT6 (30 sell a month) most would wonder what is that, haven't seen one before. ATS occasionally gets lease deals for under 400 a month 0 down so there are some out there and sells a few hundred a month.

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by frogger

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Then please oh please explain how an Escalade, you know that overdressed Tahoe you love to bring up, beat all competitors in the most recent comparison on top of being a top seller in its class. 

I have always said the Escalade is highly successful.  I don't like that it is a Tahoe but to the people buying it they want a big trucky SUV and the Escalade hits the sweet spot for those buyers.  Cadillac would be fools to change the formula on that product.

The Escalade is not sold in China which is the number 1 auto market in the world now.  That is a problem.  Escalade doesn't sell to the performance crowd. Cadillac fans preach how the CT6's weight makes it best in class the Escalade is the heaviest and thirstiest in its class.  A polar opposite of what Cadillac tries to do with their sedans.  I have thought for years they need another large SUV that can do performance and that can sell in China, Omega platform would fit that.

 

[oldshurst442]

6 minutes ago, frogger said:

In Canada if you show up in a current CTS or CT6 most would wonder what is that, haven't seen one before. ATS occasionally gets lease deals for under 400 a month 0 down so there are some out there.

 

In Quebec in the Montreal region, the ATS is literally everywhere!

Yes its got very aggressive lease deals, the fact of the matter is, Im willing to put money down, I havent checked any sales figures, but Im will to bet that in the Montreal region the ATS outsells the BMW 2 and 3 Series and the M-B C-Class!

And EVERY customer I talk to about their ATS ALL LOVE the ATS!

It is I who questions the existence of the ATS because I question the ATS' ability to catapult Cadillac to the next level....but at least in Quebec, the ATS has built quite a loyal following...

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes they sure have de-tuned it...

Pagani uses this engine with its fullest potential intact...but uses a transmission from another company other than what M-B uses...that does not bode well for the "prestige" of owning a Mercedes-Benz V12...

Its funny as both GM and Chrsyler use their own transmissions WITHOUT the fear of catastrophic failure..

And..lest NOT forget that the HOT ROD world pushes MOPAR and GM engines to HYPERCAR levels OFTEN using the transmissions that GM or MOPAR produce!

Also....in time....A Pagani, or a M-B Black Series will just be LS swapped...just like the Ferraris every other car out there....

I was searching to post a Ferrari but this came up....LAMBORGHINIS are not safe either anymore...

So much for prestigious Italian prouncing horses and V12s being the Grand Daddy of them all!

The Corvette V8 looks like its the MOTHER of all engines!

 

A Cadillac CT8 with a CADILLAC V8 will do just fine in the UBER class!

Remember

This is what Cadillac does best

And there was a 500 cubic inch V8 under that hood.

THAT is what people want from Cadillac. There is no need for a V12.

And THAT is why I said a V12 means shyte!

It is actually physically impossible for a V8 to have the NVH that a V12 can achieve.  You can't get Rolls Royce Phantom refinement out of a V8.  That is why Mercedes sticks with that V12 even when their V8 car is faster.  You also can't charge as much for a V8 as you can a V12.  With the Bentley Mulsanne being the lone exception.

[oldshurst442]

@FAPTurbo

Then there is the red neck BMW or Mercedes owner where these owners own and drive 10 year old, burnt headlighted because too expensives to replace, sometimes rusted out 3 and 5 Series Bimmers and C and E class cars pretending to be big time playas!

Oh yes....BMW and Mercedes has reached that zenith where Cadillac once was with the low class crowd pretending to be somebodys!

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I have always said the Escalade is highly successful.  I don't like that it is a Tahoe but to the people buying it they want a big trucky SUV and the Escalade hits the sweet spot for those buyers.  Cadillac would be fools to change the formula on that product.

The Escalade is not sold in China which is the number 1 auto market in the world now.  That is a problem.  Escalade doesn't sell to the performance crowd. Cadillac fans preach how the CT6's weight makes it best in class the Escalade is the heaviest and thirstiest in its class.  A polar opposite of what Cadillac tries to do with their sedans.  I have thought for years they need another large SUV that can do performance and that can sell in China, Omega platform would fit that.

 

Tip toe around it but the fact remains that those "Tahoe Bones" do not delude the prestige, the performance, and the luxury of the Escalade. It matter not one damn bit what chasis it uses when it beats the hell out of the competition that is supposedly "the best" of you believe the marketing hyped commercials. 

 

And we are not talking about China here so no bar moving. 

 

I do wondwe one thing though. Will you express a similar disappointment if Benz brings that pick up over here, Frontier bones and all?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U still lose. What I'm saying is that the CT6 comes fully loaded about $10K less than the price the dime a dozen S550 4matic. Sick of looking at them..  They don't even come off as exclusive. BTW there sales are subsidized in the same way that Caddy sell excess XTSs. The CT8 has great potential of creating a beautiful extention of an excellent, well thought out line of luxury vehicles. What you should fear is the fact that Cadillac is selling more vehicles in China than the US without the need for the Slade. Again.. Adding anymore vehicles to the line will only add volume in a positive way without a need to whore out everything under the tarp. Mercedes is a whore. A dirty skank of a whore who sucks fat ones that haven't been washed in days. 

A "fully loaded" Hyundai Sonata is $50k less than a CT6, doesn't make it better.  Fully loaded doesn't mean anything when one car has half the features of the other.  The S-class has factory bullet proofing as an option even, it not only comes in short and long wheelbase, but in Maybach and Pullman versions as well, plus coupe and convertible.  My 9 year old Mercedes faster than top engine CT6.  So why would someone with a 4-5 year old Mercedes and $100k laying around want a CT6?

As far as China goes, Cadillac sold 116,000 cars there in 2016.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 119,000.  Mercedes sold 472,000, BMW (with Mini) 516,000 and Audi 591,000.

In Europe Mercedes sold 840,000 units, Audi 831,000, and BMW 821,000.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 222,000 and Cadillac isn't even a player there.  

Cadillac in 2017 should sell more vehicles in China than the USA, but they need more crossovers in both markets in a bad way.

[oldshurst442]

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is actually physically impossible for a V8 to have the NVH that a V12 can achieve.  You can't get Rolls Royce Phantom refinement out of a V8.  That is why Mercedes sticks with that V12 even when their V8 car is faster.  You also can't charge as much for a V8 as you can a V12.  With the Bentley Mulsanne being the lone exception.

Oh yes you can!

 

You are thinking about these kinds of V8s...

 

But a V8 is smooooooth

sure its a Lexus...

 

But that 500 cubic inch Cadillac V8 was that smoooooth too! With a helluva lot more torques!

Hell...my dad's 1979 Impala and my own 1985 Olds Delta  305 catalytic converter mess was smoooooth too! Smoother than a V12?

Probably not....Chevy and Oldsmobile not uber luxury Cadillac class....and we are talking about GM's malaise period to which Lexus had an answer for in that 1989 commercial!

Coinkidinkies....that Lexus commercial was also a shot towards Mercedes Benz too! More so for M-B than Cadillac...

Besides....cam technology has advanced big time to make V8s as smooth as you want them to be....

 

Cadillac cant charge that much for a V8?

Not now they cant....perception is all phoqued....

But....they once did!!!

From the late 1940s to the mid 1970s they did! (for V8 power)....because in the late 1920s and 1930s Cadillac had V16s...but....the V8 won out...ask yourself why in the cubic inched crazed 1960s, Cadillac chose not to sell anything but V8s?

Because V12s mean shyte!

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

You can't compare engines from the 70s with engines of today...that's madness.

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A "fully loaded" Hyundai Sonata is $50k less than a CT6, doesn't make it better.  Fully loaded doesn't mean anything when one car has half the features of the other.  The S-class has factory bullet proofing as an option even, it not only comes in short and long wheelbase, but in Maybach and Pullman versions as well, plus coupe and convertible.  My 9 year old Mercedes faster than top engine CT6.  So why would someone with a 4-5 year old Mercedes and $100k laying around want a CT6?

As far as China goes, Cadillac sold 116,000 cars there in 2016.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 119,000.  Mercedes sold 472,000, BMW (with Mini) 516,000 and Audi 591,000.

In Europe Mercedes sold 840,000 units, Audi 831,000, and BMW 821,000.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 222,000 and Cadillac isn't even a player there.  

Cadillac in 2017 should sell more vehicles in China than the USA, but they need more crossovers in both markets in a bad way.

I love how you continue to compare the entire Mercedes portfolio (China sales figures) to one GM brand. Want to compare Mercedes Benz to GM in China? That is a more accurate comparison. Buick alone sold over 1.2 million cars, cars that compete with lower trim Mercedes. 

[balthazar]

9 hours ago, dfelt said:

Totally subjective as MB has NOT built the best cars in the world for the last 40+ years. The S class has been shit at times especially in the 70-s to early 90's. 80's being the worst.

The interiors were horrendous in this era. Couple that with the innovation of plastic cladding and; yikes.

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The interiors were horrendous in this era. Couple that with the innovation of plastic cladding and; yikes.

PLUS....the crappy reliabilty and the electrical nightmares which to this day is still horrendous!

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

1) A "fully loaded" Hyundai Sonata is $50k less than a CT6, doesn't make it better.  Fully loaded doesn't mean anything when one car has half the features of the other.  

2) The S-class has factory bullet proofing as an option even,

3) it not only comes in short and long wheelbase, but in Maybach and Pullman versions as well, plus coupe and convertible.  

4) My 9 year old Mercedes faster than top engine CT6.  So why would someone with a 4-5 year old Mercedes and $100k laying around want a CT6?

5) As far as China goes, Cadillac sold 116,000 cars there in 2016.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 119,000.  Mercedes sold 472,000, BMW (with Mini) 516,000 and Audi 591,000.

6)In Europe Mercedes sold 840,000 units, Audi 831,000, and BMW 821,000.  Jaguar-Land Rover sold 222,000 and Cadillac isn't even a player there.  

7) Cadillac in 2017 should sell more vehicles in China than the USA, but they need more crossovers in both markets in a bad way.

 

1) The Hyundai is in a different segment altogether. Two rungs down and isn't even considered to be tops of the Mainstream Class let alone the Premium or Luxo. In other words I can get drunk off of Mad Dog 20/20, or I can get drunk off Pappy Van Winkle.. either way.. I'm getting drunk.. But I can tell U from experience.. I'm gonna enjoy the shit outta Old Van way more than I will the MD

2) Who the FUCK.. gives a FUCK.. except dignitaries and cartel bosses.. who could give a fuck less if its factory or aftermarket?

3) Granted.. U will see that the trend here will be that this is the only point I agree on.. because quite frankly I think U're stupid and not in my league

4) In 2009, since we are entering 2018MY, we had the E350 with 268HP, E550 with 382HP, and E63AMG with 507HP. In 2009 Cadillac had the STSV6 with 304HP and the STS-V with 469HP.. they also had as a still then, as it remains.. larger than EClass, CTS3.6L with 263HP, CTS3.6LDi with 304HP, and CTS-V with 556HP.  Still to this day I fail at seeing WHY THE FUCK.. U keep bring the CT6 up when U speak about your Taxicab of an EClass. If U must play.. the 2009 E550, I assume U bought... according the MT had a 0-60 (because its the measure by which U live by in your house of shit) 4.8 second 0-to-60 sprint and a 13.4 second quarter mile at 105.3 mph, While the CT6.. a car over a foot longer, and several inches wider...  put down 5.0 seconds and quarter mile of 13.4 seconds at 105 mph.. But wait.. it gets weird. The longer, wider CT6 also manages to pull a .88G vs the lil ass Benz's .82G, Stops in 106 ft versus the lil Bitch.. I mean Benz's 124ft, does the figure eight in 25.4 sec @ 0.75 g (avg) vs the Benz 27.1 sec @ 0.65 g (avg)

5) Cadillac sold.. ALONE 116K vehicles without the Escalade. LR-Jag is 4SUVs and 4 Cars. I would say that they shouldbe ashamed that Cadillac came that close selling the just the CTS, ATS, XT5, CT6, and XTS.. , When U bring up Mercedes and Audi selling in big numbers U fail to include the fact that they are selling to the same consumers as Cadillac's sisters Buick and Chevy are selling  to with a great deal of their product

6) Cadillac isn't a player there.. and personally I never saw a reason why they needed to be. Europe isn't even profitable on its own for Benz, BMW, and Audi.. Their labor is the most expensive in the world. 

7) Null

Great points.. all of them.. if U were like Frank Reynolds.. and had a Donkey Brain Certificate saying U weren't dimwitted.

U don't do U??? Have a Donkey Brains Certificate?

It would let U off the hook for having the brain.. of a Donkey.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Cadillac didn't lose on LUXURY around the 90s. it had that in spades. It lost on the transition from LUXURY to LUX-SPORT as Gen X wanted their luxo to be able to handle

 

Backseat of a Fleetwood Brougham d-Elegance circa 1990

and an 560SEL same year... 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Cadillac didn't lose on LUXURY around the 90s. it had that in spades. It lost on the transition from LUXURY to LUX-SPORT as Gen X wanted their luxo to be able to handle

 

Backseat of a Fleetwood Brougham d-Elegance circa 1990

and an 560SEL same year... 

That's actually an SEC interior (2dr).   The SEL didn't have the center console, and had a reclining back seat. 

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

As far as China goes, Cadillac sold 116,000 cars there in 2016. Mercedes sold 472,000.

Yes MB sold more than Cadillac, but then lets look at that 472,000. This included all their car versions, vans, trucks,etc. 

So if we look at GM, then the 1.6 million auto's they sold in 2016 clearly beats MB.

Apple to Apple comparison. Cadillac, Buick and Chevy equal the whole MB product line.

[Cmicasa the Great]

19 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

That's actually an SEC interior (2dr).   The SEL didn't have the center console, and had a reclining back seat. 

Regardless.. its still an S-Class.. 

11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes MB sold more than Cadillac, but then lets look at that 472,000. This included all their car versions, vans, trucks,etc. 

So if we look at GM, then the 1.6 million auto's they sold in 2016 clearly beats MB.

Apple to Apple comparison. Cadillac, Buick and Chevy equal the whole MB product line.

GM sold 3.87M vehicles in China in 2016

Cadillac Sold 116K

Buick sold 1.2 Mil

Chevy sold 525K

Baojun 688K

Wuling sold 1.3 Mil

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I love how you continue to compare the entire Mercedes portfolio (China sales figures) to one GM brand. Want to compare Mercedes Benz to GM in China? That is a more accurate comparison. Buick alone sold over 1.2 million cars, cars that compete with lower trim Mercedes. 

Buick sells econoboxes like the Excell in China.  And the entire Mercedes portfolio in China, is Mercedes.  1 brand of luxury cars.  So I compared it to one brand of luxury cars.

[smk4565]

51 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The interiors were horrendous in this era. Couple that with the innovation of plastic cladding and; yikes.

 

52 minutes ago, balthazar said:

  10 hours ago, dfelt said:

Totally subjective as MB has NOT built the best cars in the world for the last 40+ years. The S class has been $h! at times especially in the 70-s to early 90's. 80's being the worst.

From wikipedia:  "The different body styles of the W126 S-Class achieved a combined sales total of 892,123 units (818,063 sedans and 74,060 coupés), making the W126 the most popular S-Class ever produced."

I think still to this day the W126 S-class is the number 1 selling luxury car of all time.  It was pretty much the car that cemented Mercedes world wide reputation and sales growth.  Those 80s Cadillacs are what killed Cadillac's reputation and led to their demise.  

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Buick sells econoboxes like the Excell in China.  And the entire Mercedes portfolio in China, is Mercedes.  1 brand of luxury cars.  So I compared it to one brand of luxury cars.

Yeah because I'd feel like the king of the town showing up in an A or B Class...

[Cmicasa the Great]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

From wikipedia:  "The different body styles of the W126 S-Class achieved a combined sales total of 892,123 units (818,063 sedans and 74,060 coupés), making the W126 the most popular S-Class ever produced."

I think still to this day the W126 S-class is the number 1 selling luxury car of all time.  It was pretty much the car that cemented Mercedes world wide reputation and sales growth.  Those 80s Cadillacs are what killed Cadillac's reputation and led to their demise.  

This guy the Impala still holds the record for over a 1 Million sold in one year. TWICE.. just counting the U.S.A... My country.. get your Kraut lovin ass out

and where is your response from the NUMBERED response I gave to your quote

[FAPTurbo]

the impala isn't a luxury car

[smk4565]

40 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes MB sold more than Cadillac, but then lets look at that 472,000. This included all their car versions, vans, trucks,etc. 

So if we look at GM, then the 1.6 million auto's they sold in 2016 clearly beats MB.

Apple to Apple comparison. Cadillac, Buick and Chevy equal the whole MB product line.

Buick and Chevy and Cadillac???  Do you all realize what Buicks cost in China?

The Enclave is by far the most expensive at 509,000 RMB, which is $74,000 US.

The 2nd most expensive Buick is the GL8 minivan at 289,900 with a top Avenir trim at 449,900 RMB.  (Mercedes sells the Vito/Metris there for 299,000 and 489,000 which is rather similar)

The most expensive Buick car in China is the Velite (Volt) at 265,800 or $41,681 US.

Buick has 5 products in China under 200,000 yuan or $29,000 USD.  More of a VW competitor in China.

A Mercedes CLA in China is 249,000 yuan, a base C-class is 325,800, so already way above any Buick other than Enclave.  

The S-class starts at 938,000 RMB or $137,000, and goes up to 2,998,000 RMB for an S65, which is $437,000.  Mercedes also has the GLS, G, SL and AMG GT with base prices over 1 million RMB also.

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

the impala isn't a luxury car

Id say, the Impala is just as much luxury as any Mercedes out there!

Especially when sales are thrown into the mix...

Edited May 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

17 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Yeah because I'd feel like the king of the town showing up in an A or B Class...

The A-class hatchback, the cheapest Mercedes sold in China, costs more than a Buick Lacrosse in China.   Buick isn't competing with Mercedes over there.  Their full size flagship can't even command Mercedes compact hatchback prices.

[smk4565]

One post earlier mentioned the STS with 304 hp and the 469 hp V, which was still less than an E63, and the 320 hp Northstar STS was less than the 382 hp E550.  But more importantly the STS is dead.  DTS, Fleetwood, Eldorado, XLR, all dead.  They are about to kill the CTS.  All this stuff Cadillac tried and it all failed.

I said years ago when the CTS was a tweener it needs to be 5-series size and 5-series price (or 3-series size and 3-series price with STS aimed at the 5).  I said when the CT6 came out it was priced too low, they aimed too low.  I have said for years Cadillac needs a sports car above Corvette and even in the $200,000 range.  

I used to be a big Cadillac fan, I liked the Northstar era Cadillacs, I liked the XLR (not so much at that price, but I liked the car).  But for years it has been over promise and under deliver, looking for short cuts and stop gaps, and going to the GM parts bin.

I don't hate Cadillac, I am being realistic.  I'd like to see Cadillac make a $175,000 V12 + hybrid sedan or an SUV that can run the Nurburgring in under 8 minutes, or a sports car that can go 200+ mph and 0-60 in 2.5 seconds.  Make and ATS-V R with a 640 hp V8, all wheel drive, 10-speed auto and carbon fiber body panels.  I'd like to see Cadillac make more EV's than Tesla, come out with 5 all new EV models in the next 5 years.    Bring it all on.  Cadillac lives in their fears (as Mike Tomlin would say), they lack the guts to actually be "the Standard of the World" so Johan and crew play pretend like they are a top luxury brand, when in reality they are not.

[Cmicasa the Great]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

One post earlier mentioned the STS with 304 hp and the 469 hp V, which was still less than an E63, and the 320 hp Northstar STS was less than the 382 hp E550.  But more importantly the STS is dead.  DTS, Fleetwood, Eldorado, XLR, all dead.  They are about to kill the CTS.  All this stuff Cadillac tried and it all failed.

STS is the current CTS.. CTS is the old STS.. that simple. By your rationale the change of names means the deal of a car... I can look at plenty Benzs that don't share the same name as their predecessors even tho they occupy the same space. Hell.. the M-Class must of been a failure.. by your point of view.

And if I remember correctly.. the 469HP in the STS was the same as it was in the EAMG upon the STS-V's debut in 2006. GM.. for obvious reasons.. didn't update it .. but the 556HP CTS-V certainly rammed more HP down the 507HP EAMG's throat just 2 years later

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Regardless.. its still an S-Class.. 

GM sold 3.87M vehicles in China in 2016

Cadillac Sold 116K

Buick sold 1.2 Mil

Chevy sold 525K

Baojun 688K

Wuling sold 1.3 Mil

Weird, Guess I hit a fake news site as I saw GM listed at 1.6 million.  Yet even then the point being if we put all of GM together to be equal to MB, then they still outsold MB.

[Cmicasa the Great]

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

Weird, Guess I hit a fake news site as I saw GM listed at 1.6 million.  Yet even then the point being if we put all of GM together to be equal to MB, then they still outsold MB.

No issue from me dfelt.. just trying to drive your point home harder.. BTW. I got it from several sources as I looked at your number and was like.. "no way.. I kno for a fact that Buick alone had sold 1.2.. and Chevy and Caddy had sold 640K." Detroit News ( and Reuters confirmed along wit a few other)

Maybe they weren't including Baojun and Wuling

[Cmicasa the Great]

And GOD DAMNIT!!! 

I checked his numbers... How the hell is he including a combined Benz/Smart number in China but only calling on Cadillac as a single brand

Mercedes sales were up with a 28% increase with at least 12 more vehicles than Caddy. They sell the A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K,L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z    (talk about Alphabet Soup)

Cadillac sales totaled 116,406 vehicles, up 46%. Meaning the ATS, CTS, CT6, XT5, Escalade, and XTS.. and yes.. unlike what @smk4565 said, the Escalade appears to be on sale in China

 

[G. David Felt]

But But But that is fake news, must be!  

[smk4565]

Escalade must be new in China, they didn't sell it there last year.  The displacement tax must be huge on it.  

And why doesn't Cadillac have more models?  GM should triple Cadillac's budget so that they can have 5 crossovers, convertibles, Hyper cars l, electric cars and what ever else they want.

Edited May 26, 2017 by smk4565

[G. David Felt]

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Escalade must be new in China, they didn't sell it there last year.  The displacement tax must be huge on it.  

And why doesn't Cadillac have more models?  GM should triple Cadillac's budget so that they can have 5 crossovers, convertibles, Hyper cars l, electric cars and what ever else they want.

They very well could have for all we know. GM shocked everyone with the BOLT! Who knows what is really planned for Cadillac over the next few years.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And why doesn't Cadillac have more models?  GM should triple Cadillac's budget so that they can have 5 crossovers, convertibles, Hyper cars l, electric cars and what ever else they want.

And NEED!!!

But ya, I agree with you!

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Escalade must be new in China, they didn't sell it there last year.  The displacement tax must be huge on it.  

And why doesn't Cadillac have more models?  GM should triple Cadillac's budget so that they can have 5 crossovers, convertibles, Hyper cars l, electric cars and what ever else they want.

Some guy across town just got his head cut off for not investing in the right technology. I'm sure Mary is rather aware of this while she battles her own activist investor. How much do you think a new convertible will add to Cadillac's bottom line right now? We already know a pair of new crossovers are on the way. 

[oldshurst442]

Just to kinda respond to what @Drew Dowdell said in his above post semi-defending myself and semi agreeing to what Drew said and semi-agreeing to what @smk4565 said....

Ive been very critical to what Cadillac has been saying they wanna do and what they actually are doing myself. Since 1997, Cadillac has been over promising us and under selling us to what they have promised us!

However, this time, what they are actually doing, what they are promising us and what they are giving us is quite promising. This time it is for real.

All what SMK is saying that Cadillac needs will come in due time.

Nothing is rushed at Cadillac anymore.

That is why it seems like forever for the lust products to come out.

In. Due. Time.

I for one, am excited for the future of Cadillac.

The convertible will come.

The Tesla fighting EV will come.

The S Class BEATER will come.

The crossovers to fluff up necessary sales and to build a solid customer base from will  come.

Actions DO speak louder than words. And Cadillac's actions speak for themselves...

The Caddy that Zigs was fluff!

The beginnings of Arts and Science was 1 step forward 2 steps back.

The head exploding show cars like the Sixteen, Cien, Ciel and El Miraj was nothing but smoke and mirrors.

The Evoq and Converj was blundered....but going forward, the Escala really looks like Cadillac has finally got it right and really is moving forward with it! Not backwards!

Actions DO speak louder than words.

The guy from cross town rival....his marketing guy....well, it was all words!

Johan too, has talked a tough game trying to bully his former German bosses and their cross town rival as well...but, Johan had shaken Cadillac's roots and core so his tough words towards the Germans...I believe them! 

Johan is NOT a typical GM "yes man" lifer!

Moving forward...Cadillac is in GREAT position to reclaim lost territory!

 

To this I also point out that GM is FINALLY getting us a mid-engined Vette!

To this I also point out that GM is FINALLY letting engineers do the talking....

Example....letting the Camaro EXCEL and NOT be shackled just because the Vette is in front of it.

The V Series Cadillacs...there is nothing else to say about them! Just....PHOQUE YEAH!

The XT5 is huuuuuge success!

The ATS and the CTS when they are brought into the new nomenclature with their new underpinnings along with the upcoming V8 for the CT6 will come into their own which also coincides with 2 new crossovers.....sales will EXPLODE by LEAPS AND BOUNDS here and ESPECIALLY in China by 2021!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

We have yet to see any of Johan's work yet.  The CT6 was completely locked in and the XT5 was 90% locked in by the time he walked in the door. I'm not his biggest fan, but I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt once the first Johan car is ready for release. 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Some guy across town just got his head cut off for not investing in the right technology. I'm sure Mary is rather aware of this while she battles her own activist investor. How much do you think a new convertible will add to Cadillac's bottom line right now? We already know a pair of new crossovers are on the way. 

It would help more than the Buick Cascada.  And a Cadillac convertible should be more profitable than a Camaro convertible. Cadillac could probably use 4 new crossovers, not just 2.  But 2 is a start.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We have yet to see any of Johan's work yet.  The CT6 was completely locked in and the XT5 was 90% locked in by the time he walked in the door. I'm not his biggest fan, but I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt once the first Johan car is ready for release. 

He'll never get it done.  Even if he wants to, he will never have the money to do it.  Mercedes is going to launch 10 electric cars by 2023, they just broke ground on a 50 acre battery factory that will go online next year to rival Tesla's Giga Factory.  How will Cadillac ever get 10 EV's to market, when they can't even get 10 total models on market, they have 6 or 7 models now an that is the biggest line up they have had in years.

And look at how slow Cadillac moves, Oldshurst's whole post was how convertible is coming, EV is coming, CT8 is coming, crossovers are coming, etc.  The other luxury brands are selling all that stuff now, you don't have to wait for a BMW EV or a Mercedes convertible, or a mid-engine Audi sports car, you can go buy it now, you could have bought them years ago even.  When the big shift to EV's happens, I suspect Cadillac will be well behind, just like they are well behind the crossover boom.

[Drew Dowdell]

The EV is here now and it's their second one. EV tech is going to roll out across the entire model line.

They were one of the first to do a luxury SUV and Truck. They've been in the luxury crossover game since the early days of such a thing.  Just because they don't have a sport utility cross coupe whale like Benz and BMW doesn't mean they're behind. No one is buying those monstrosities. Benze's growth is entirely in pushing fake Gucci bags on masses for $299 a month leases. I don't think Cadillac should be chasing that.

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Some guy across town just got his head cut off for not investing in the right technology. I'm sure Mary is rather aware of this while she battles her own activist investor. How much do you think a new convertible will add to Cadillac's bottom line right now? We already know a pair of new crossovers are on the way. 

I hate agree with that fool, but I too think that Cadillac needs more models. Many of these models could be off the same platform of Alpha and Omega.. just variations of existing vehicles. For example a convertible ATS, CTS, CT6 in there 2019 insertions. How does Chevy have two convertibles.. one off of the very same platform as the CTS and ATS, but none at Cadillac? CUVs??? A no brainer. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

He'll never get it done.  Even if he wants to, he will never have the money to do it.  Mercedes is going to launch 10 electric cars by 2023, they just broke ground on a 50 acre battery factory that will go online next year to rival Tesla's Giga Factory.  How will Cadillac ever get 10 EV's to market, when they can't even get 10 total models on market, they have 6 or 7 models now an that is the biggest line up they have had in years.

And look at how slow Cadillac moves, Oldshurst's whole post was how convertible is coming, EV is coming, CT8 is coming, crossovers are coming, etc.  The other luxury brands are selling all that stuff now, you don't have to wait for a BMW EV or a Mercedes convertible, or a mid-engine Audi sports car, you can go buy it now, you could have bought them years ago even.  When the big shift to EV's happens, I suspect Cadillac will be well behind, just like they are well behind the crossover boom.

How does that make sense, when the headlines are constantly saying that the true rival and threat to Tesla.. is GM. It is one of the few automakers that has its own EV, PHEV, and Hybrid tech on patent. In fact.. I believe BMW, for instance.. and possibly Daimler, have to pay licensing to GM for their versions of Voltec. That patent has a LOT of things in it. I kno for a fact that BMW's i3 is a direct Volt knock off partially because the lead engineer worked on the Volt before he left.

Currently GM has the Volt, Bolt, CT6, Spark and upcoming Malibu Hybrid utilizing what could be the best tech on the market. Also GM is also selling the #1 for the year Volt

[Drew Dowdell]

15 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I hate agree with that fool, but I too think that Cadillac needs more models. Many of these models could be off the same platform of Alpha and Omega.. just variations of existing vehicles. For example a convertible ATS, CTS, CT6 in there 2019 insertions. How does Chevy have two convertibles.. one off of the very same platform as the CTS and ATS, but none at Cadillac? CUVs??? A no brainer. 

I'm not saying that Cadillac doesn't need more models... But Cadillac is being very cautious and the new guy's seat isn't even warm yet.  SMK seems to think that vehicle platforms and designs are just downloaded like an app. They aren't... Designing a new car takes 5 years at minimum in most cases. When it takes less time, off the shelf components are used and the design becomes compromised (Think Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice). Johan has only been there about 2 years.... We haven't seen any of his work yet.

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not saying that Cadillac doesn't need more models... But Cadillac is being very cautious and the new guy's seat isn't even warm yet.  SMK seems to think that vehicle platforms and designs are just downloaded like an app. They aren't... Designing a new car takes 5 years at minimum in most cases. When it takes less time, off the shelf components are used and the design becomes compromised (Think Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice). Johan has only been there about 2 years.... We haven't seen any of his work yet.

Gotcha... and I am looking forward to the "new product every six months from mid-2018 through the end of 2020 into 2021" scenario

That's about 6 new products even if it includes the XT3, CT5, and CT3.. I'm looking forward to the balance

[smk4565]

The Bolt has more sales than a Model S because it is 1/3 the price.  Tesla has home battery unit, the solar roof and other items to expand beyond cars.  Tesla has a whole home power system thing going on.  GM doesn't manufacture the battery or motor for the Bolt, LG does.   The current crop of Mercedes hybrids are pretty standard tech, the B-class is a compliance car thrown together.  The real Mercedes EV's are in development as they have a dedicated EV platform, and soon their own battery factory.  Once that all comes online around 2019 they can start to give Tesla a run.

As Drew said, it takes 5 years (sometimes 4) to get a car to market, Cadillac has no EV in the works now, and a Bolt clone probably isn't what they need.  Cadillac is still playing catch up on crossovers, which were getting hot 10 years ago, and they still only have 1.  I don't see Cadillac magically having 5 or 6 EV's on sale 5 years from now.