Porsche News: 911 Plug-In Hybrid Has Been Shelved

[William Maley]

Porsche was planning to do a plug-in hybrid variant of the next-generation 911, but it seems those plans have been scrapped.

August Achleitner, head of 718 and 911 development revealed to Car and Driver revealed that plug-in 911 project was canceled last year. Two issues ultimately brought the downfall to this project. First was the plug-in hybrid 911 wouldn't have the same driving dynamics as the standard 911 due to additional weight brought on by the hybrid components. Second is Porsche would not be able to make the same profit margins as they do on other 911 models.

“In the end, the disadvantages outweighed the advantages,” said Achleitner.

Source: Car and Driver

View full article

[ocnblu]

[smk4565]

No worries, AMG will offer hybrids, they will figure out what Porsche failed to do.

[oldshurst442]

Well...

The 911 really does not need to go EV or hybrid (for Porsche) just yet.

1. The 911 has sold 1 million copies

2. Porsche has got the 918 right now

3. Porsche has got other EVs in the pipeline

4. Because of all that, the 911 (and Porsche) has no need to re-define itself...especially if the 911's traditional driving dynamics were to be compromised....the traditional 911 buyer continues on with his purchase of the 911 as is and if a newbie wants an EV from the Porsche brand, he has the 918 and other models to choose from soon.

5. When the time will come when the traditional 911 buyer will demand an EV version, Porsche will be ready for one as Porsche by then, will have the tech, experience and money to do an EV 911 as close to a traditional 911 as possible.

 

Without derailing this thread and talking about a Corvette and Corvette branding.

But this is why Corvette/Chevy/GM is in a pickle if Corvette does not go hybrid soon....

Porsche has got other models such as the 918 that does the EV/Hybrid thing...there is no immediate need for the 911 to go that route...

Porsche....as a BRAND, could build and sell other project specialty cars or outright volume models to satisfy the EV/Hybrid market. And that is EΧACTLY what they will do as THAT is EΧΑCTLY what they said they will do!

Corvette as it stands, needs to do battle with the 911 and ALL its variants, the convertible 911, the Boxster, the Cayman, the 918...

Chevy or Cadillac as in GM as a whole does NOT have an EV/Hybrid to do battle with ANY sports car that is EV/Hybrid and Chevy has not mentioned ANY word on the next C8...let us not forget that even Acura has gone the EV/Hybrid route with the NSΧ...

The next C8 might be mid-engined, might not be....and its less  clear if a hybrid powertrain will be offered....and THAT to me is more of an issue for Corvette and GM going forward rather than the 911 not going EV/Hybrid.

 

[riviera74]

So there will be a Porsche EV/Hybrid that is NOT a 911.  OK.  GM probably should consider a Camaro-based EV to deal with any high performance EVs out there soon.

[oldshurst442]

18 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

So there will be a Porsche EV/Hybrid that is NOT a 911.  OK.  GM probably should consider a Camaro-based EV to deal with any high performance EVs out there soon.

Corvette is the big dog.

The NSX is EV/Hybrid.

Mclaren P1 is EV/Hybrid.

Ferrari LaFerrari is EV/Hybrid. And Ferrari has hinted that all Ferraris in the future will be EV/Hybrid. If that hasnt  changed yet...

The Porsche 918 is EV/Hybrid.

All these are Corvette's competition. The Z06 (&Z07 package) and ZR-1 were engineered to do battle with these....and the C8 is said to be mid-engined to BETTER compete (to actually win) the performance metrics!

If you dont think that the Corvette belongs in this category, the Camaro belongs even less in this field with these cars...

So THAT is why the Corvette NEEDS to go EV/Hybrid! Especially if the next gen is to be mid-engined!

 

And if you say no to that....then the Corvette brand needs to be a brand by itself...because the Corvette cannot simply  continue being a Jack-of-all-trades sports  car....it will cease to dominate and Corvettes are KNOWN to DOMINATE....THAT is what the REAL essence of Corvette is all about!

The 911 DOMINATES!

It has MANY variants to be able to do so....

The  Corvette does not have that.

The 911 is Porsche and Porsche is 911.

With that being said, Porsche also has the Boxster, Cayman, 918 that represent Porsche quite well!

All all cars seem to dominate helping the Porsche brand excel.

In turn, helping to continue the LEGEND of the 911!

Edited May 12, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

Shame. This could- would- have been a benchmark. 

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Shame. This could- would- have been a benchmark. 

THIS....I could agree with!

[smk4565]

19 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Corvette is the big dog.

The NSX is EV/Hybrid.

Mclaren P1 is EV/Hybrid.

Ferrari LaFerrari is EV/Hybrid. And Ferrari has hinted that all Ferraris in the future will be EV/Hybrid. If that hasnt  changed yet...

The Porsche 918 is EV/Hybrid.

All these are Corvette's competition. The Z06 (&Z07 package) and ZR-1 were engineered to do battle with these....and the C8 is said to be mid-engined to BETTER compete (to actually win) the performance metrics!

If you dont think that the Corvette belongs in this category, the Camaro belongs even less in this field with these cars...

So THAT is why the Corvette NEEDS to go EV/Hybrid! Especially if the next gen is to be mid-engined!

 

And if you say no to that....then the Corvette brand needs to be a brand by itself...because the Corvette cannot simply  continue being a Jack-of-all-trades sports  car....it will cease to dominate and Corvettes are KNOWN to DOMINATE....THAT is what the REAL essence of Corvette is all about!

 

Wait, the Corvette competes with a LaFerrari and P1?  They aren't even close.  If a Corvette Z07 and a LaFerrari were in a 50 lap race on just about any race track in the world, the LaFerrari would lap it several times over. 

Corvette should also not be its own brand, in fact I would say that Cadillac should have sports cars, rather than try to spin Corvette into a brand with crossovers like Porsche and multiple sports cars. 

I think Corvette will not offer a hybrid in the next 15 years and maybe never, because they like to keep the powertrain cheap and the car light.  That being said I think GM should look into performance hybrids, I'd rather see it on Cadillac, but I'd be in favor of a hybrid Camaro or Corvette, I just doubt they could sell many of either.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Wait, the Corvette competes with a LaFerrari and P1

Not directly the Vette doesnt....

Not on price, not on platform but definitely on performance...sure the LaFerrari and P1 might beat it (Z07 and upcoming ZR1)

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If a Corvette Z07 and a LaFerrari were in a 50 lap race on just about any race track in the world, the LaFerrari would lap it several times over. 

That is why I said might...

But you got to admit...the Vette for its engineering and its price point, even if it does lose(Z07 and upcoming ZR1) ...which it might not..sure as hell gives the LaFerrari and P1 a run for THEIR  money....

 

But hold on now...

Its not as if the Vette aint engineered for track use to beat up on Ferraris...

And just for that....the Vette INDIRECTLY competes with the LaFerrari...

 

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette should also not be its own brand, in fact I would say that Cadillac should have sports cars, rather than try to spin Corvette into a brand with crossovers like Porsche and multiple sports cars. 

Like I said...the Corvette CANT CONTINUE being Jack-of-all trades!

Its for guys like YOU that this  cant continue....

YOU just berated a 100 00 dollar  car that is engineered to take on your 1 500 000 dollar LaFerrari.

YOU just laughed it off saying that a 1 500 000 dollar will lap it several times over when that is NOT the case as the  C5R, C6R and C7R Corvettes are all 24 hour LeMans winners in their respective GT class often not far behind their LMP class competitors...

And THIS will change as the C8 will probably be a mid-engined affair to better put down that power for track use...remember...LaFerrari DOES have a 300 some odd horsepower advantage over the Z06....the C7R actually produces LESS power than the civilian model....as it stands now....the C7 being front engine rear wheel drive is at the limits of what that layout could do....

So....while LaFerrari MIGHT outlap it in a 50 lap race...that has more to do with the drive train layout rather than Ferrari's 1 500 000 dollar price tag's engineering versus Chevy's 100 000 dollar effort...

And THAT is why the CC8 will probably be a mid-engined affair...and if THAT is the case...LaFerrari will definitely NOT lap the Vette....

Why Cadillac?

Price tag?

Irrelevant...

See the C7 and C7R versus the high dollar hitters and envision that same scenario with a mid-engined C8 and C8R at more or less Chevrolet price tags...

Like I said....Chevy engineers a techno tour de force to compete with the big wigs of the racing world and puts that into the civilian model Vette..

 The engine, the body, the aerodynamics, the suspension benefits the C7 Stingray, Z06(Z07), ZR1 from the C7R...

Cadillac has no racing pedigree...

Chevrolet does...

And it all started with the Corvette....

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette should also not be its own brand, in fact I would say that Cadillac should have sports cars, rather than try to spin Corvette into a brand with crossovers like Porsche and multiple sports cars.

Well....because the Vette is and will always be a Chevy....no need for Porsche-like SUVs ....

OK...maybe a  couple of Corvette tuned Trailblazers and Tahoes to make a mark....

Just a diversity of Corvettes specializing in destroying every sports car market there is...

 

 

36 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That being said I think GM should look into performance hybrids, I'd rather see it on Cadillac, but I'd be in favor of a hybrid Camaro or Corvette, I just doubt they could sell many of either.

Yes they should....

I dont know about the Camaro being a sales success with hybrids but I dont see how Corvette could fail.

Corvette as of now has very strong brand recognition world wide along the same lines as Ferrari, Porsche, Jeep and Mustang...

Tesla is bringing out a new generation Tesla roadster...

THAT is NOT Cadillac territory in 2017, nor in 2018, nor in 2019, nor in 2020, nor in 2021, nor in 2022...

THAT is in CORVETTE TERRITORY NOW!!!

And it WILL ALWAYS BE CORVETTE TERRITORY....

And NOT just Corvette territory but Corvette IDENTITY to be a SPORTS CAR...

Cadillac's TRUE mission was always LUXURY....Past, present and future....

So....Cadillac does not really EVER need an exotic race car...THAT is what Corvette is for!!! And its a Chevy!

 

[oldshurst442]

I mentioned Corvette and at least 2 posters are in denial where Corvette fits in the sports car world...and just THAT proves my point that the Vette needs to diversify and to specialize (hence to become its own brand to offer MORE DIVERSE MODELS keeping FR and OFFERING mid-engine at the same time) to better compete with several sports car markets as the Stingray, Z06 and soon ZR1 aint enough....and in reality, its just a more modern muscle car approach in offering a bigger engine and MOAR power that was done in the 60s and 70s.

Jack-of-all trades but master of none!

EXCELLENT engineering but the Jack-of-all trades approach lacks the focus of the specialty sports cars the Vette does battle with directly and indirectly....

Now...back to the 911 and the cancellation of the EV/Hybrid 911

 

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

The Corvette should be a $50-100k car, I think they could go base V6 maybe turbo V6.  Maybe a V6 hybrid set up to get 400 hp and keep weight manageable.  The C7R does well in its race league but it isn't a top tier league.  A stock LaFerrari could beat those GT class racers or a NASCAR for that matter.

Let's look at real lap times form the Red Bull Ring, 4.3 km circuit

Ferrari LaFerrari 1:38.9

Lamborghini Hurcan 1:45.4

Nissan GT-R Nismo 1:45.5

Mercedes-AMG GT S 1:48.9

Corvette Z07 1:49

Porsche Cayman GT4 1:50.9

And the Hurcan on down were the same driver.  The Corvette would give up 10 seconds a lap to the LaFerrari, that is a big gap, the LaFerrari would lap it every 10 laps.  And the LaFerrari gives up over 30 seconds a lap to an F1 car, think about that.

So my point is the performance level that is possible is way, way above even a Corvette Z07, way above a 911 turbo (which is why they have the 918) and I think a road car can go way above that which Mercedes will prove this fall.

[balthazar]

Corvette IS a $50-$100K+ car. Base MSRP of SR coupe is $56K, Z07 is $100K.
Weight IS "managable- it's 200-350 lbs lighter than MB, 600 lbs lighter than the nissan.
Corvette "road car" will be "way above that"- the ME Corvette C8 is coming.

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So my point is the performance level that is possible is way, way above even a Corvette Z07, way above a 911 turbo (which is why they have the 918) and I think a road car can go way above that which Mercedes will prove this fall.

What Balthy says....PLUS

LaFerrrari has 900+ horsepower

Corvette Z06 has 650....and its at the limits of performance due to FR layout...

 

WHAT I KEEP SAYING AND YOU JUST SAID IT:

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

way above a 911 turbo (which is why they have the 918)

The Corvette does battle with the 918 too!

How?

INDIRECTLY

which begets this (the one on the left)

and when Chevy realizes that even that is not enough to impress the likes of you with a price tag of ONLY 100 000, Chevy engineers this:

And that 10 second lap will probably be less....by leaps and bounds.....with LESS HP than either the 918 or the LaFerrari.....but the price tag wont increase by leaps and bounds....and the C7 ZR1 will still be hampered by the FR layout....

But yeah....INDIRECTLY...the LaFerrari and the 918 ARE the Vette's  competitors...JACK-OF-ALL-TRADE approach...

In reality SMK, we really are saying the same thing! Think about it...

You choose to put every other brand on a high pedestal by trying to downplay what the Vette does by throwing ALL models of said brands in the Vette's path and saying: "You see! A Vette cant  compete with ABC brand's 1 000 000 dollar car"

And of course you mentioned Mercedes!

What I do is I agree with YOUR philosophy, but I dont downplay what the Vette can do...

I say the Vette is a JACK-OF-ALL-TRADES car and a master of none but I PRAISE what it does at a price point that is LESS than even its DIRECT competitors!

The thing is...minus the hybrid tech and the lack of a MR layout but the C7-C6-C5 really is a Front MID engine layout, the Corvette Z07 package employs the same amount of engineering tech to EXPLOIT THE MAXIMUM IT CAN OUT OF ITS DRIVETRAIN AND POWERTRAIN....

And when the MR C8 comes out...with all the racing tech learned with the C7R and the MR Vette Daytona racer

will probably be on par with that 1 500 000 LaFerrari in track times at 10% of LaFerraris price tag!

And YOU want this tech to go to Cadillac?

I said that Corvette needs to be its own brand to diversify so Vette could have a roadster EV to do battle (and win) with the Tesla EV

To have a FR TTV6 layout to do battle (and win) with Porsche's Boxster and Cayman

To have a base model roadster to do battle (and win) with Mazda's Miata...technically, THAT WAS the Corvette's ORIGINAL 1953 mission anyway!

To remain like it is now (Stingray, Z06, ZR1) to do battle (and win) with Porsche's many specialized 911 variants.

To have a MR layout and go all out to do battle (and win) with the likes of LaFerraris, 918s, P1s, Ford GTs, hell, even put a TTV6 in it to do battle (and win) the NSΧ...

Το ΜΑΥΒΕ even offer a Trailblazer tuned by Corvette racing to do battle (and win) Cayennes and BMW M badged crossovers!

Because as it stands now....the Vette does battle with all cars mentioned directly and indirectly and its Jack-of-all-trades stance, it aint focused enough to win any battles....

So yeah, SMK, we ARE saying the same thing....its just that you prefer to downplay the Corvette!

 

 

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette should be a $50-100k car

And who says that?

YOU?

Corvettes of the past had models that surpassed that limit some want to put on it!

Corvette was NOT about price point...it became that way in the mid 70s all the way to the 2000s with the mid 70s C3 and C4 and C5 and it started to break free from those shackles with the C6 and with the C7 going forward, the Vette is going back to its 1955 mission of DOMINATING the STREET AND RACING CIRCUIT no matter what price point...at your friendly CHEVROLET dealership....

The Corvette at this time was NOT an affordable car...

It wasnt an exotic like the Gullwing, but it wasnt priced a tad more than a Chevy Impala like it is now either at its lowest!  And at its highest, it sure was HIGHER in price than Cadillac's offerings!!! In which today at 100 000 is on par with Cadillac!

[A Horse With No Name]

14 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Good grief...this is a thread about a new compact performance CUV...stop trying to compare it to a sports car.  Absurd and pointless.  

Entertaining though!

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Entertaining though!

Hmm...my response went in the wrong thread...thought I was replying to the Alfa Stelio thread..

[Frisky Dingo]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette should be a $50-100k car, I think they could go base V6 maybe turbo V6.  Maybe a V6 hybrid set up to get 400 hp and keep weight manageable.  The C7R does well in its race league but it isn't a top tier league.  A stock LaFerrari could beat those GT class racers or a NASCAR for that matter.

Let's look at real lap times form the Red Bull Ring, 4.3 km circuit

Ferrari LaFerrari 1:38.9

Lamborghini Hurcan 1:45.4

Nissan GT-R Nismo 1:45.5

Mercedes-AMG GT S 1:48.9

Corvette Z07 1:49

Porsche Cayman GT4 1:50.9

And the Hurcan on down were the same driver.  The Corvette would give up 10 seconds a lap to the LaFerrari, that is a big gap, the LaFerrari would lap it every 10 laps.  And the LaFerrari gives up over 30 seconds a lap to an F1 car, think about that.

So my point is the performance level that is possible is way, way above even a Corvette Z07, way above a 911 turbo (which is why they have the 918) and I think a road car can go way above that which Mercedes will prove this fall.

 

WAIT.

Did you just say a LaFerrari would beat a GT3/GTE car around a track??

 

You cannot be serious. A GTE/GT3 car would absolutely murder any of the most recent crop of hyper cars on a circuit. 

 

 

 

Also-
 

A Corvette don't compete with a hybrid hypercar. They exist for two completely different reasons, they appeal to completely different mindsets, and they are in totally different price and performance leagues.

 

There will be a hybrid Corvette in way less than 15 years. I'd wager less than 5. No way is GM letting all the stuff they're learning with the Volt/Bolt and Malibu Hybrids go to waste. A hybrid Corvette is a no-brainer.

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

Corvette IS a $50-$100K+ car. Base MSRP of SR coupe is $56K, Z07 is $100K.
Weight IS "managable- it's 200-350 lbs lighter than MB, 600 lbs lighter than the nissan.
Corvette "road car" will be "way above that"- the ME Corvette C8 is coming.

I think they could make the Corvette $49,900 as a base model.  The Corvette has a low weight now, but if they added all wheel drive and/or a hybrid system the weight would go up.  Then you need carbon fiber to get it back down, and then cost sky rockets.  I think a ZR1 Corvette should be $100,000 at 600 hp max.  If GM wants to build sports cars above that, go to Cadillac and make Cadillac a credible performance brand.

[smk4565]

If Corvette were to become it's own brand, with stand alone dealerships,  then different story.  Then you could have the $55-100k front engine/rear drive coupe/convertible that we know.  Then there could be a mid-engine, a crossover, a hybrid, a pure EV, etc.  They could have 4 or 5 models and cover a wide price range.  But as it is, the Corvette is a single model, and it is a Chevy, which is the value brand of GM.  

And when Porsche wanted a hyper car, they didn't see how far they could push the 911, they just put a 918 above it.  Mercedes didn't see how much extra they could ring out of a GT, they know the GT is in the $120-170k range and won't ever compete with a hyper car.  So they will make a new car to beat the hypercars.

If Corvette wants to be the top performance car, then they need to achieve 1000+ hp, sub 3,000 lbs, all wheel drive and hybrid, that all has to be there.  And you can't do that for anything under a million dollars.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Corvette were to become it's own brand, with stand alone dealerships,  then different story.  Then you could have the $55-100k front engine/rear drive coupe/convertible that we know.

Corvette is a sub-brand under Chevrolet. And I don't understand "then you could have" - we ALREADY have.
 

Quote

Then there could be a mid-engine, a crossover, a hybrid, a pure EV, etc.  They could have 4 or 5 models and cover a wide price range.  But as it is, the Corvette is a single model...

The crossover corvette, et al, is just stupid. but The 'Vette is not a single model, it's 3 models in 2 bodystyles and a price range well over double the base price- that is 'wide'. And a 2nd configuration is coming, along with more models. Suggesting a EV Corvette just shows you really have no clear view of the car's mission.
 

Quote

If Corvette wants to be the top performance car, then they need to achieve 1000+ hp, sub 3,000 lbs, all wheel drive and hybrid, that all has to be there.  And you can't do that for anything under a million dollars.

And here I thought you were going to suggest 2000 HP.

Edited May 13, 2017 by balthazar

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Corvette is a sub-brand under Chevrolet. And I don't understand "then you could have" - we ALREADY have.
 

The crossover corvette, et al, is just stupid. but The 'Vette is not a single model, it's 3 models in 2 bodystyles and a price range well over double the base price- that is 'wide'. And a 2nd configuration is coming, along with more models. Suggesting a EV Corvette just shows you really have no clear view of the car's mission.
 

And here I thought you were going to suggest 2000 HP.

Corvette is not a brand.  A Brand has in many cases a stand alone dealership (unless it is FCA) and a Brand has usually 4 or more different car lines.  

Suggesting that the Corvette is a brand, means the Mercedes E-class is a brand.  It has 4 body styles and 2-3 models within each body style.  And it is not a brand.

For Corvette to be a brand it can't be sold at Chevy dealers and that will never happen.

[balthazar]

I didn't call it a brand.

And I disagreed with making it a brand.

Edited May 13, 2017 by balthazar